I never realized how many fake damage dealers there was until I started playing Tank/Healer

starkerealm

Jierdanit wrote: »

essi2 wrote: »

There are no fake DDs, only bad or sub-par DDs.

You expect a tank to be able to tank when they queue for a dungeon.

Youre still going to call him a fake tank when he doesnt taunt bosses, even though it might just be cause they dont know how to.

No, that's a bad tank. A tank who's learning, and trying. A fake tank is one that comes in with their 20k DPS, in light armor, with a BBQ staff. They were never trying to be a tank, and everyone knows it. That's a fake tank.

A tank who's in heavy armor, and trying to get the enemies to pay attention to them, but legitimately doesn't know about taunts is a lot like a newbie DPS who doesn't know about weaving, and is mostly spamming light attacks. Neither one is fake, they're just bad.

ArielSira

Recently I see a lot of 30k health+sword n shield dd's in vet dungeons. Today again, so halfway I swapped my tank gear to dd to make it go a bit faster. I understand these most likely are pvp players but it's not hard having basic gear (ie Hundings) to be somewhat useful instead of creating a 3 tank run.

MrMazurski

ArielSira wrote: »

Recently I see a lot of 30k health+sword n shield dd's in vet dungeons. Today again, so halfway I swapped my tank gear to dd to make it go a bit faster. I understand these most likely are pvp players but it's not hard having basic gear (ie Hundings) to be somewhat useful instead of creating a 3 tank run.

true, really dont need nothing more than Leviathan + any dmg set like Hunting Rage (or the magical equivalent) or whatever for doing dungeons and few pve skills. Nothing more ayonning for me that guys with pvp setup, what i have a lot meet at Vet.

Stamicka

I would say you should just find 1 friend that DPSes and if you’re both good, a tank and one DPS can do any base game dungeon. You could even use dungeon finder to help the “fake people” get through.

There’s no way to fix players not being good at the game. You have to understand that a very large portion of the game requires very easy combat or no combat at all. Dungeons, trials, and PvP players are probably the minority at this point. There’s tons of quests, housing, fishing, role playing, and exploring to do. None of those things require hard combat at all.

When the majority of the game is made for a completely different audience, is it even fair to expect the players to be decent at combat? That’s like expecting a good PVEr to be a good PvPer but that’s not always the case.

Maybe they’re getting their feet wet in actual content. It’s a big leap going from questing to dungeons. If you don’t want to deal with it (it’s the majority of the player base) just bring a friend like I said. 2 good players is more than enough.

Sanguinor2

Stamicka wrote: »

I would say you should just find 1 friend that DPSes and if you’re both good, a tank and one DPS can do any base game dungeon. You could even use dungeon finder to help the “fake people” get through.

There’s no way to fix players not being good at the game. You have to understand that a very large portion of the game requires very easy combat or no combat at all. Dungeons, trials, and PvP players are probably the minority at this point. There’s tons of quests, housing, fishing, role playing, and exploring to do. None of those things require hard combat at all.

When the majority of the game is made for a completely different audience, is it even fair to expect the players to be decent at combat? That’s like expecting a good PVEr to be a good PvPer but that’s not always the case.

Maybe they’re getting their feet wet in actual content. It’s a big leap going from questing to dungeons. If you don’t want to deal with it (it’s the majority of the player base) just bring a friend like I said. 2 good players is more than enough.

If they enter veteran content it is fair to expect them to be decent at combat. It isnt called veteran for nothing. If they enter normal its less of an issue since most normal dungeons can be soloed easily.

TTHHORR

davidtk wrote: »

TTHHORR wrote: »

1st - Veteran - I did 70%-75% of damage. Tank + healer did great. Other DD had 30k health.

And may I ask you, 30k health on DD means what?

Sorry i just don't understand why it is mentioned here. With food buff and Gaze of Sithis head i have 31k health ...

davidtk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

It means he is investigating way too much health than needed to survive. Investment that should have went into making sure the build can actually deal an adequate amount of damage.

Thank you for the explanation, I was just curious, because with my stam DD I have an adequate amount of damage and still higher health when use Sithis, otherwise I have 27.5k health. And no problem, thats all

I just want to add that it's just a generalization on my part, most of the time the DDs with health above 27k in dungeons either didn't think about the build much or need it to compensate for lack of mechanics knowledge or skill but it's definitely not the rule. Off-meta builds and for 'fun' builds are fully capable of doing more than enough dps for vet dungeons. Years ago the dps was much lower and everyone was still able to complete all the content.

While I didn't care about the slower pace myself I was seriously paranoid that the tank will give up and leave since I've seen it happen way too often on vet. Group member dies once? Tank leaves. Group member says one complaint? Tank leaves. Something is taking too long? Tank leaves.

Klad

Another day another shriek of "Fake" <insert ridiculousness here>

I wonder how the same fifteen or so people that post this crap will react when they find out what has actually been going on in the community lately.

/Ominous flute music plays in the background

starkerealm

davidtk wrote: »

TTHHORR wrote: »

1st - Veteran - I did 70%-75% of damage. Tank + healer did great. Other DD had 30k health.

And may I ask you, 30k health on DD means what?

Sorry i just don't understand why it is mentioned here. With food buff and Gaze of Sithis head i have 31k health ...

Don't run Gaze of Sithis in PvE. You're better off running a monster set for outgoing damage. Gaze will only help mitigate chip damage, while leaving you open to some one shots that simply don't exist normally (because you can't mitigate additional damage by blocking.) So, you either need to become very proficient with dodging (in which case Sithis is doing nothing), or face tanking the floor.

If you are good enough to make Gaze work in PvE, you'd probably be much better off with the Kilt or Fete (or, possibly some other mythic that boosts your damage.) And, I don't recommend the Kilt lightly. That thing requires you can avoid taking (basically) any damage, which is much more difficult than most people realize.

With Champion Points where they are now, it's reasonable to see a DPS as high as 25k health, but more than that tends to indicate that they've been sacrificing DPS for survival (this is, actually true in your case.) So, yeah, my recommendation would be that you drop Gaze of Sithis in favor of something that improves your damage.

spartaxoxo

davidtk wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

davidtk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

It means he is investigating way too much health than needed to survive. Investment that should have went into making sure the build can actually deal an adequate amount of damage.

Thank you for the explanation, I was just curious, because with my stam DD I have an adequate amount of damage and still higher health when use Sithis, otherwise I have 27.5k health. And no problem, thats all

Define adequate amount of damage...just curious. Like what number?

Edit: because I was looking at gaze not because questioning that

I understand that DD in vet dung who can do under 20k DPS is real pain problem...

Adequate amount of damage was not defined in this thread. What number should it be counted from?
Anyway I still have room for improvement and the last time it was on dummy about 40k DPS. And still have big problem with light weaving, damn it.

I using Releq/Selene(Sithis)/Hunding <- i can't use Tzogvin yet because drop rate for tzogvin dagger is how to say... super low. And Vateshran still don't gave me Thunderous Volley. But i am used to it, because at some several "good" sets (DD, healer) i missing one damned piece for using it, damn random drop.

BTW i doing vet dungeons with real tank

So can you suggest me better secondary set (Edit: I forgot... Stam Necro WW build)?
And about Gaze... Block Mitigation is problem, but if you can do roll dodge, you are fine...

You're dps is quite good for vet dungeons! May not be vet trial ready but that's high enough where it wouldn't just be adequate but a relief to have you on team. I don't know too much about the specifc class you're running to give more specific advice, as I mostly play mag. I think Tzovgin is pretty good set though.

Sithis seems like a good set! Thanks for the info, helps me understand that set better.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

MrMazurski

Dear ZOS,

Can you add new rules to your Forum Rules? Such as:

Only one new topic per week about "fake role", "DM queue" ,"Tank meta", "slaughterer players on BG"

Ley

essi2 wrote: »

There are no fake DDs, only bad or sub-par DDs.

I feel personally called out XD

Klad

MrMazurski wrote: »

Dear ZOS,

Can you add new rules to your Forum Rules? Such as:

Only one new topic per week about "fake role", "DM queue" ,"Tank meta", "slaughterer players on BG"

ooo ooo or even better "Fake Role" has the same non constructive worth as "I quit" post.

It will make the forums a nicer place.

Icy_Waffles

Yeah it’s insane. I won’t take a healer into 4 man and when I take a tank I make sure I have at least one buddy who is a dps with me.

Ken_Koerperich

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I would say you should just find 1 friend that DPSes and if you’re both good, a tank and one DPS can do any base game dungeon. You could even use dungeon finder to help the “fake people” get through.

There’s no way to fix players not being good at the game. You have to understand that a very large portion of the game requires very easy combat or no combat at all. Dungeons, trials, and PvP players are probably the minority at this point. There’s tons of quests, housing, fishing, role playing, and exploring to do. None of those things require hard combat at all.

When the majority of the game is made for a completely different audience, is it even fair to expect the players to be decent at combat? That’s like expecting a good PVEr to be a good PvPer but that’s not always the case.

Maybe they’re getting their feet wet in actual content. It’s a big leap going from questing to dungeons. If you don’t want to deal with it (it’s the majority of the player base) just bring a friend like I said. 2 good players is more than enough.

If they enter veteran content it is fair to expect them to be decent at combat. It isnt called veteran for nothing. If they enter normal its less of an issue since most normal dungeons can be soloed easily.

They enter Vet because of the Dailies, and the Drops. Nothing else matters.

Try being on Normal or II Dungeons, 1 daily only, as "you" know you suck at them and have never done them like I haven't.

Then sit in "Q" up to an hour, just to have some face tanking CP Lv1000+ speed run the whole thing, ignoring your request to slow down, "guide" you as you can't run THAT FAST, and skipping Lore and the quest parts, just so they can "show" off, get their "3/4/5" what have you dailies done....

Can't learn squat when all I/we get to do is mash the "Sprint" and try to keep up...

CaffeinatedMayhem

ArielSira wrote: »

Recently I see a lot of 30k health+sword n shield dd's in vet dungeons. Today again, so halfway I swapped my tank gear to dd to make it go a bit faster. I understand these most likely are pvp players but it's not hard having basic gear (ie Hundings) to be somewhat useful instead of creating a 3 tank run.

I can 100% confirm a lot of PvP players wear the same gear in PvP as in PvE, especially randoms.

Question is... are they not queuing as a tank because

1. They don't want a fast queue
2. They don't know what a taunt is/does
3. They don't realize that 17k DPS is NOT enough for vet dungeons, while their PvP setup is probably good enough to tank even some easier vet DLCs (sans Sithis ofc)


Edit: Something occurred to me while a group was waiting for a replacement DPS (the original would NOT do mechanics and got voted out).... ZOS could remove the trinity queue from normals. Along with the group leave penalty. Hear me out: Most people realize you don't need a holy trinity to run base game normals, and even DLC normals. I've run nMHK, nFV, nDoM all with 4 DPS and NO TAUNT OR CC WHATSOEVER, it was fine. What if when you queued for normal it was just putting 4 players together? If 4 tanks or 4 healers end up together, whoops, disband (if there's no penalty, not a big deal) Everyone will get a shorter wait, and no more "fake this fake that"

The trinity is really required for vet dungeons, *especially* the vet DLCs. Sure you can 3DPS vet DLCs, but your tank needs to know how to sustain without a healer. I know many tanks are not comfortable without heals/orbs. (hey, even I ask DPS to slot orbs on a few DLCs)

ArielSira

@CaffeinatedMayhem it was Wayrest 1. As the tank I was doing 5k dps at first boss which was 21% of total. I wish they were each doing 17k! Luckily the healer stayed and I offered to switch gear so we finished it. Got the medium Slimecraw I wanted so in the end it was all good, but had it been ICP I would have left after first boss.

CaffeinatedMayhem

ArielSira wrote: »

@CaffeinatedMayhem it was Wayrest 1. As the tank I was doing 5k dps at first boss which was 21% of total. I wish they were each doing 17k! Luckily the healer stayed and I offered to switch gear so we finished it. Got the medium Slimecraw I wanted so in the end it was all good, but had it been ICP I would have left after first boss.

Lol, I picked 17k because that's what *my* PvP DPS do on a dummy, average...

CaffeinatedMayhem

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

[snip]

I mean true. But also, if you rush ahead of the group, ignoring mechanics that get the other 3 people killed and they vote to kick you... don't go hate whispering them either.

[edited to remove quote]

davidtk

starkerealm wrote: »

...
With Champion Points where they are now, it's reasonable to see a DPS as high as 25k health, but more than that tends to indicate that they've been sacrificing DPS for survival (this is, actually true in your case.) So, yeah, my recommendation would be that you drop Gaze of Sithis in favor of something that improves your damage.

Thank you, I usualy run with Selene, just wanted to try something new and Gaze of Sithis is really interesting. I am afraid that i can't go much further in DPS, but still learning

WynnGwynn

Every time I see a post complaining about fake tanks or fake healers I always point out there's just as many completely unprepared DPS that drag teams down but that's ENTIRELY ok in their books because there is "no such thing as fake dps". I'm sorry but they can ruin runs just as much as 'fake' tanks or "fake" healers. People either need to stop making the fake tank or fake healer posts or at least realize that they're just simply complaining about bad players because there's in fact more bad dps than bad tanks/healers lol. (I've been screwed over way more by bad dps as a tank, it's perspective. If you tank, you get the bad dps. If you dps, you get a few fake tanks. But if you tank, every other dungeon drags on because you have 10k group dps in a vet). Let's just admit what these posts are and be realistic.

These posts are just venting about bad groupmates. If you tank you get bad dps. If you dps you get bad tanks or bad healers. It's all what roles you queue as and what you end up dealing with.

Sanguinor2

Ken_Koerperich wrote: »

They enter Vet because of the Dailies, and the Drops. Nothing else matters.

Try being on Normal or II Dungeons, 1 daily only, as "you" know you suck at them and have never done them like I haven't.

Then sit in "Q" up to an hour, just to have some face tanking CP Lv1000+ speed run the whole thing, ignoring your request to slow down, "guide" you as you can't run THAT FAST, and skipping Lore and the quest parts, just so they can "show" off, get their "3/4/5" what have you dailies done....

Can't learn squat when all I/we get to do is mash the "Sprint" and try to keep up...

You can (and should) learn how combat works outside of normal dungeons since normal dungeons barely teach anything.

Folkb

I have a tank and a healer but I often queue as a DD so I can wait 15 mins to enter a dungeon.

True story.

Lerozain

RedFireDisco wrote: »

The amount of times I've seen some scrub firing single target damage at mobs

Single target skills are fine on dungeon trash, as long as they can at least lay down a couple aoes to burn the pull, but if you mean someone who only uses single target then I agree.

RedFireDisco wrote: »

"slap on a resto to heal" type

That's all that's needed for normal dungeons and base game vets if the group is experienced and well-geared, but in DLC vets that may not be viable depending on the boss, group composition and class of the healer.

BXR_Lonestar

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

I don't want to spend over an hour in Vet CoH2 because one DD is spamming force pulse (with no light attack weaving) and the other is only using wall of elements and lightning staff heavies. Please.

The funniest part is once I realized how many fake DD's there were, I started paying attention to my partner DD when I'm playing as a DD. It's sad to say that close to 50% of the time I'm the only player actually contributing damage.

Fake DPS is one of the exact reasons why you don't see many legit tanks/healers in Activity Finder. Did a dungeon last week where a DPS was wearing sword/board.... I was on my offtank healer so I could both heal and tank, so theoretically, we should have been able to carry an extra DPS and just blow through but, only one of the three DPS was any good, so the vet dungeon that should have taken 10-15 mins (Blessed Crucible) took like 40 minutes to do.

Feels bad man. Real bad.

Veinblood1965

You win the QP doll prize for the first fake DD post I've seen. Gave ya an awesome!

Its_MySniff

RoninMB wrote: »

essi2 wrote: »

There are no fake DDs, only bad or sub-par DDs.

Not true. I've been in numerus dungeons where the dd was actually the "tank" and the tank was the dd. Don't know if they were grouped together and thought it would be funny to do that or what but it happens.

I was helping a new tank out a few weeks ago and qued as a DD running a full tank. We were running normal so I risked making a few people angry. I did get one reply that said they didn't see tanks do that often and was accused of trying to get an even faster que. I laughed, apologized and said faster would not be possible. All in all, it was a good night and no one else seemed to care. That is the only time I've fake qued intentionally and will probably never do it again. Now, using one of my questers as a DD is even worse. I helped turn vet coh2 into a 45 minute nightmare. I could just hear the other DD thinking, ' this guy is 1500 cp and hits like a bum'. I felt so bad actually being in the category of bad dd. I'll reroll before I ever run another questing alt in vet, base game or not. Cheers.

Obsidian3

A lot of the times when I take my healer out, I am doing more dmg than the DPS. I think it's more ignorance on the part of newer players. When a game is this old there is so much to learn. ZoS doesn't make it easy, I did new the tutorial and at the end if I didn't know what I was doing I would've been overwhelmed with all the choices.

MEBengalsFan2001

Amottica wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

There need to be hints on loading screens before dungeons and checklists when selecting a role

DPS's should run ground AOE's, dots, and really all damage needs to be area of effect, save for boss only skills.

The amount of times I've seen some scrub firing single target damage at mobs, or wearing S&B for DPS roles is easily as often as I see a "slap on a resto to heal" type or no-taunt tanks.

Considering taunts are fairly standard for tanking in most MMORPGs like ESO I do not think offering a checklist that mentions that for those who selected the tank role will have any effect. It is pretty much the same reason some have noted that suggestions of requiring having a taunt unlocked or even slotted would change nothing since it will not require the player to use it or even keep it on their bar.

I can only imagine I was fortunate that I found a good guild as easily as I did. It was not hard for me. I run with them most of the time and the experience is superior to anything I have gotten via the GF. However, when I do queue solo I do realize I am asking for randomness in so many ways.

A better solution to the tank role for dungeons, any ability used automatically put that player at the top of the threat list to any enemy near them. No more need for a taunt other than for bosses that may get away from time to time.

waterfairy

Weak dps doesn't mean fake like the fake tanks who don't taunt...I can pick up the slack for weak players in my party but I refuse to pick up the aggro for a fake