Incoming ball group buffs.

VaranisArano

red_emu wrote: »

Actually, the solution might be even more simple. Add diminishing returns to "ball group extermination sets" and make it way more punishing (yet still allowing for duo bombers)

1-2 people - 100% damage
3-6 people - 50% damage
6-12 people - 1% damage

This way, the bomb sets would be "as designed" for solo/duo use only 👍

At that point, you also take those sets away from the PUG groups who are doing most of the work of trying to pry farming ball groups out of their back keeps.

Sorry, but it's usually not the solo/duo players who are being farmed. ZOS isn't just trying to make solo/duo bombers overpowered here. These sets are supposed to be in widespread usage so that it becomes a tradeoff to run tightly together and purge frequently (something PUGs don't do unless they are herded into a choke point by a farming ball group.)

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

There is quite a lot of misinformation on this thread and threads like these always. Things don't just 'instantly' get removed dedicated roles are needed in order to remove effects as fast as possible. Speed buff is good for sure but there are tonnes of other ways of achieving it as well. Lets say it was removed or made a short duration on a synergy, People could just use sets to get speed buff etc..

The point always boils down to. If a group of players choose to optimize their roles and teamwork they should achieve better results than those that choose not to. If you don't like it and wish that it wasn't the case than you need to either fundamentally change the entire combat system of ESO / MMO's in general or make the game unplayable through either lag/desyncs or completely overbuff zerging mechanics to negate any form of coordinated play benefit.

You know the thing which has killed most groups in the game? It's lag and terrible performance. There's been at least 4 groups which have quit in the past 1 1/2 years due to this specific reason.

I'm sure that a large majority of the playerbase would love some button that could be pressed which just deletes enemy teams from the game but that's not how interesting and rewarding combat works. There should be a certain level of skill, teamwork and counterplay required to fight.


now back to the OP's suggestions.

1) Ressing - I would love some mechanics to punish continuous res both camp and soul gem. Also continuous attempted ressing. If I bash someone who is trying to res there should be some consequence not just an interrupt and free CC immunity. They can just instantly start to res again, no cooldown even (unlike skills). It's really frustrating to play against both when in a group and when solo vs groups. This being said I think your estimation that groups only survive due to the ability to necro res constantly isn't really accurate. Lets say death was more punishing I'd also just play way more defensively as a group rather than trying to go for some risky play which puts the group in trouble because we have a res available. (there's always a balance).

2) Diminishing AP at an objective. IMO this is a terrible idea. I get what you are trying to do but this is never the way to achieve it. This basically will push people to only frontline fights or backline keep flipping.

3) Honestly I don't care about this at all, I don't think AP should be the incentive for leading. If someone wants to be group leader just because they get more AP it's likely that their group wont really work regardless. People should want to lead to make their group better to achieve better results and be rewarded based on their groups performance as a team.

4) I would like to see a lot of changes to the scoring to make the game promote different styles of gameplay. I think the most basic one would be to greatly reduce the score eval duration (every 5m for example on a full locked server, every 1h on an empty server). This will mean that holding a back keep is actually detrimental to the faction you are holding it from. Whereas now its only a problem for 1m every 1h. You could also tie ticks into how long you have held a keep for rather than an upgrade system (or some combination) to make it rewarding to defend.

laksikus

One of the biggest problems i (as solo bomber) have with ballgroups, is that they have 35-40k health and still do massive damage.
Maybe make dmg negativly scale with max health

Changes to proc sets wont really matter, ball groups also worked fine in no proc.

TequilaFire

Simple solution is to make grouping mandatory in Cyrodiil.
Then add arenas to scratch the small scale itch.

Sandman929

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point always boils down to. If a group of players choose to optimize their roles and teamwork they should achieve better results than those that choose not to.

Absolutely...but how much better is where there's a conversation about balance that needs to happen on the development team. I think they're having that conversation, and possibly going the wrong way IMO trying to address it with sets.

neferpitou73

Mayrael wrote: »

Add to battle spirit:

Purge: now can be used only via synergy.
Rapids: as above.

Negate now works vs stamina skills to.

Bam. Ball groups are dead. Without being able to move fast, remove all the debuffs and dots and not being able to use any skills in negates this kind of playstyle would be impossible.

3 changes to skills are all you need to balance out ball groups.

Some interesting ideas but won’t help.

The synergy on purge will kill pugs worse it will groups because we have more heals

The issue with negates is not that they don’t affect the skills but that some ball groups run 8 earthgore so the effect is cleansed immediately

The correct way to handle the negate issue is a nerf to earthgore cleanse or

Adernath wrote: »

No. These ideas only favour organized group play further.

This is my idea as a solution against ball groups: Instead of letting negate shut down abilities in a small area where everyone can just walk out, it should give a debuff on every person caught in the area, shutting down abilities for perhaps 4 seconds and which can not be cleansed.

Which is an interesting suggestion

NordSwordnBoard

I just like the idea of "Who wants crown?" not being followed by crickets

NordSwordnBoard

I agree with a lot of the OP's points. I think most could agree that any set created to be implemented vs. organized groups will be used by them if its effective at all. You will surprise ball groups with coordination and predicting them, not some special secret set that only solos and zergs found out about in the patch notes.

doesurmindglow

My central point isn't so much that the sets being proposed as solutions won't work; it's that they'll actively buff coordinated groups at the expense of less organized ones, just as VD currently does. I'm perfectly content to leave things as they are going into next patch, which is to buff survivability in general and provide ball groups with a couple new powerful tools to fully weaponize against less organized groups. But I get the sense that ZOS isn't actually happy with where things are, based on the developer comments to the sets' apparent intentions.

This being said, I generally agree with the comments that coordinated and optimized "ball groups" probably should, and ultimately will be, stronger than groups that are not as well-organized. There is no silver bullet to overcome that fact, and the focus on individual sets and individual abilities is laughably inadequate. What I think could be done is introduce incentives or tools that support players in forming competing groups, and that encourage a more dynamic map (and conversely, discourage a more stagnant one).

I'm not sure these are exactly the right ones to achieve that either, but at least they're imagined with that goal in mind, which is probably where the developers' focus more rightly should be.

neferpitou73

I design ball group comps and while I firmly believe organized groups should do better than zergs I agree the top groups are over performing. If you want to level the playing field this is what I’d recommend:

1.) Nerf major evasion to be in line with protection. Wondering why AOEs have no effect? Evasion is why

2.) Nerf Earthgore cleanse so negates matter again

3.) Buff impen to nerf crit damage by around 15%. All the big groups run acuity and instawipe everyone. The recent stat increase made crit damage insane.

With these changes groups would be competitive but not all powerful

Sanctum74

TequilaFire wrote: »

Simple solution is to make grouping mandatory in Cyrodiil.
Then add arenas to scratch the small scale itch.

No thanks that would be terrible, being forced to follow pvdoor groups or just farm resources. Id rather have the freedom to go where I want and actually help my alliance.

TequilaFire

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Simple solution is to make grouping mandatory in Cyrodiil.
Then add arenas to scratch the small scale itch.

No thanks that would be terrible, being forced to follow pvdoor groups or just farm resources. Id rather have the freedom to go where I want and actually help my alliance.

Guess I should of used /s instead of sticking tongue out.

Sanctum74

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Simple solution is to make grouping mandatory in Cyrodiil.
Then add arenas to scratch the small scale itch.

No thanks that would be terrible, being forced to follow pvdoor groups or just farm resources. Id rather have the freedom to go where I want and actually help my alliance.

Guess I should of used /s instead of sticking tongue out.

Lol no worries I should have specified I was AD then you would understand our crown problems, although Sanj has made a great comeback this campaign.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The point always boils down to. If a group of players choose to optimize their roles and teamwork they should achieve better results than those that choose not to.

Absolutely...but how much better is where there's a conversation about balance that needs to happen on the development team. I think they're having that conversation, and possibly going the wrong way IMO trying to address it with sets.

They are going the direction of 'death button' rather than interesting combat mechanics. I haven't tested anything yet this patch, wont be till last week of PTS cause of all the random changes which happen week to week but at least from reading it a lot of ppl gnna be very unhappy next patch. On top of the poor performance, rollbacks, debuff bugs.

Mayrael

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Add to battle spirit:

Purge: now can be used only via synergy.
Rapids: as above.

Negate now works vs stamina skills to.

Bam. Ball groups are dead. Without being able to move fast, remove all the debuffs and dots and not being able to use any skills in negates this kind of playstyle would be impossible.

3 changes to skills are all you need to balance out ball groups.

Some interesting ideas but won’t help.

The synergy on purge will kill pugs worse it will groups because we have more heals

The issue with negates is not that they don’t affect the skills but that some ball groups run 8 earthgore so the effect is cleansed immediately

The correct way to handle the negate issue is a nerf to earthgore cleanse or

Adernath wrote: »

No. These ideas only favour organized group play further.

This is my idea as a solution against ball groups: Instead of letting negate shut down abilities in a small area where everyone can just walk out, it should give a debuff on every person caught in the area, shutting down abilities for perhaps 4 seconds and which can not be cleansed.

Which is an interesting suggestion

Pugs don't even use purge or cleanse, and even if they did, they don't die because of debuffs or DoTs, but simply because they run after ball groups like lambs one after another.

Nope. Purge needs to be changed. The same goes for rapid. Ball groups abuse purge and high mobility. Period. No group, random or organized should be immune to negate 100% of the time.

About negate, we can discuss, yes negate that can't be purged is another good idea, but as I said before, 4s of skill disable without the ability to remove it in 1v1 is a death sentence. We can't sacrifice one balance at the expense of another.

Maybe the solution to this problem should be available in a generic skill line available to everyone.

How about turning Borrowed Time (the one with 2s cast time) from Psijiic Skill Line into an unremovable debuff that completely stops healing and HP recovery the longer the more enemies are hit with it. E.g. basic effect lasts 1s. For each additional player hit by the skill the effect is prolonged by 1s. In this way this skill would become a real killer of tight group formations, while being almost useless against dispersed groups - if a dispersed group was hit with this skill, for 3-5s each of its members would be able to roll up or seek shelter. On the other hand, a ball group hit with such a skill and unable to heal for 10-12 seconds... no need to say anything.

Maybe this is too radical approach but there are more ideas. For example skils that completely stop recoveries for a certain time the longer the more targets they hit.

Of course there is still the issue of purge - if purge remains unchanged it should be impossible to remove, which I think is a bad idea because everything should have some counterplay so it is better to apply the purge changes I wrote about and still allow some degree of defense against such effects.

Anyway I emphasize again, the current situation where a group can be 100% immune to all negative effects cannot happen.

Adernath

Given the fact that dodge window is between 1.5 to 2 seconds, a 4 second negate debuff is not necessarily a death sentence, as almost everyone is capable of dodge-rolling a few times if necessary.

One could also start by making it cleansable (of course, not by people who would be affected by it), which should already be much stronger than the current state of this ability.

In WoW the counterspell ability can shut down all healing for 4s as well, making it very effective vs. healing-spammers.

VaranisArano

Adernath wrote: »

Given the fact that dodge window is between 1.5 to 2 seconds, a 4 second negate debuff is not necessarily a death sentence, as almost everyone is capable of dodge-rolling a few times if necessary.

One could also start by making it cleansable (of course, not by people who would be affected by it), which should already be much stronger than the current state of this ability.

In WoW the counterspell ability can shut down all healing for 4s as well, making it very effective vs. healing-spammers.

This is a four-second window where I can't cast any ability, right?

What am I supposed to do when someone negates me in a choke point on the flags of a keep?
Dodge roll...where?
Light attack?

Sorry, but that's a death sentence. Maybe that's feasible in an open field fight where I can run away, but trying to survive for four second in a hotly contested keep battle while not being able to cast anything at all just doesn't have counterplay.

TequilaFire

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Simple solution is to make grouping mandatory in Cyrodiil.
Then add arenas to scratch the small scale itch.

No thanks that would be terrible, being forced to follow pvdoor groups or just farm resources. Id rather have the freedom to go where I want and actually help my alliance.

Guess I should of used /s instead of sticking tongue out.

Lol no worries I should have specified I was AD then you would understand our crown problems, although Sanj has made a great comeback this campaign.

Yep, miss all the battles we had in the Warriors with Sanj over the years, glad he is back.
I heard Gooch might be back on AD who will dominate as usual.

Thraben

Mayrael wrote: »

About negate, we can discuss, yes negate that can't be purged is another good idea, but as I said before, 4s of skill disable without the ability to remove it in 1v1 is a death sentence. We can't sacrifice one balance at the expense of another.

Maybe the solution to this problem should be available in a generic skill line available to everyone.

How about turning Borrowed Time (the one with 2s cast time) from Psijiic Skill Line into an unremovable debuff that completely stops healing and HP recovery the longer the more enemies are hit with it. E.g. basic effect lasts 1s. For each additional player hit by the skill the effect is prolonged by 1s. In this way this skill would become a real killer of tight group formations, while being almost useless against dispersed groups - if a dispersed group was hit with this skill, for 3-5s each of its members would be able to roll up or seek shelter. On the other hand, a ball group hit with such a skill and unable to heal for 10-12 seconds... no need to say anything.

The main problem of Borrowed Time is that the anti- healing effect is bound to the stun at the end. Since most player tend to spam "bad" hard CC skills to provide immunity to grouped players, this reduces the skill's effectiveness significantly. When they would fix this design flaw, I think the skill would be good already.

neferpitou73

I find it mildly amusing that ZOS doesn’t seem to realize ball groups are going to use these new sets to farm pugs even harder

DrSlaughtr

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I find it mildly amusing that ZOS doesn’t seem to realize ball groups are going to use these new sets to farm pugs even harder

And they'll either run revealing flare or the new CP that gives major protection after breaking free. Plus all the other mitigation being added in.

VaranisArano

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I find it mildly amusing that ZOS doesn’t seem to realize ball groups are going to use these new sets to farm pugs even harder

It reminds me of when ZOS buffed the destro staff ultimate so players could use it to kill groups.

Yeah, my raid died to it more often than we had before.

But boy, we killed a LOT more players with it than before, too.

kojou

First of all, lets not forget that having an organized group is a legitimate play style. Its ok, and we don't really need to decentivize it. Whether it is a "ball group" or otherwise. I think the combat team is going the right direction by giving tools to challenge organized groups so that not all fights end in long drawn out stalemates, and penalizing a group itself for being organized is unnecessary. If you want to fight an organized group then run in an organized group. Also, sometimes you just need to face the fact that other players are better or more organized than you are, and that's ok. If you can't face them head on then adjust your tactics and come up with objectives that your team is capable of doing.

Second, I would like to see tools for making it more convenient for people to be group leads. For example:

• Player A comes in Cyrodiil and doesn't have a guild to run with, but wants to start a group. That player can mark his/herself as a group leader.
  
• Player B enters Cyrodiil in the same situation, but doesn't want to lead, so that player marks his/herself as a group follower. The game could then match player B to player A and keep adding follower players until the group is full. If the game automated teams a bit then we would see less "type x in chat for group" spam.
  
• Player C could come in and mark his/herself as solo and do what ever solo people do...
  
• If player A leaves for the evening then all the followers get automatically shuffled to the closest groups with space for them.
  
  Maybe there could also be some incentives for running in a random group. Random group leaders get 10% more health, and random followers get 10% more Magicka/Stamina regen when they are within 20 M of their group leader.
  
  I'm sure NA-AD players will still run solo, but maybe they will join teams... one can always hope.
  

Third, I would also like to see some formation tools added to the game as well. Such as a notification that you are getting more than 100 M from the group leader, to let players know they are getting distracted and going the wrong way. I use an add-on that gives relative position of team members that lets me know where my group is and who is straggling, but I would love to see something in the game that helps wandering group members stay together.

Lastly, AP as a reward system is OKish, but I tend to prefer the fun of having good fights and AP is just a side benefit. The problem is that good fights IMO require at least 2 coordinated and somewhat equally matched groups to fight each other in the same area fighting over an objective. An AP defensive reward is more of an indication of how epic the battle was.

Adernath

VaranisArano wrote: »

Adernath wrote: »

Given the fact that dodge window is between 1.5 to 2 seconds, a 4 second negate debuff is not necessarily a death sentence, as almost everyone is capable of dodge-rolling a few times if necessary.

One could also start by making it cleansable (of course, not by people who would be affected by it), which should already be much stronger than the current state of this ability.

In WoW the counterspell ability can shut down all healing for 4s as well, making it very effective vs. healing-spammers.

This is a four-second window where I can't cast any ability, right?

What am I supposed to do when someone negates me in a choke point on the flags of a keep?
Dodge roll...where?
Light attack?

Sorry, but that's a death sentence. Maybe that's feasible in an open field fight where I can run away, but trying to survive for four second in a hotly contested keep battle while not being able to cast anything at all just doesn't have counterplay.

Actually, if you are inside a keep it is even easier to survive than in the open, because there is usually plenty of opportunities to get around corners or use obstacles for LOSing. Besides of being able to dodge, which provides the strongest defense, you could also block or just move out of the way (e.g. through an opponent) or jump to make it difficult to hit you. Then there are sets which provide passive defense boni and so many players are tanky as hell anyways.

So it is not a death sentence at all. It would give a great tool not only vs. organized groups, but all densely stacking groups like most of the zerg groups I encounter every day when fighting DC and Pact and which tend to stack like penguin colonies in the antarctic winter.

DrSlaughtr

Pretty much everything they've ever added to combat ball groups just gets used by ball groups to make them stronger and harder to kill. The only thing they've never tried, and has been suggested on this forum, is a siege weapon with a damage multiplier for targets hit.