Is new inner beast working also in PvP?

axi

Because if it does it's OP af.

WrathOfInnos

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Jameson18

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

With all the sources of breech, that's kind of a weak point though.

JobooAGS

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

you can stack them both

YandereGirlfriend

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

While that's true it's also a ranged ability that does not lock you into a particular weapon choice.

In PvP, that counts for a lot.

sabresandiego_ESO

People gained 20% tankyness this patch (going from 50% to 60% mitigation is 20% more tankyness). Nobody would ever die 1on1 or through heals without this new skill

WrathOfInnos

JobooAGS wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

you can stack them both

Two taunts in PVP? Or 3 skills if you get Major and Minor Breach from different sources. How many bar slots do you have?

It’s seemingly less of a damage increase than casting Major Sorcery or Brutality, and only applies to a single enemy.

Anyway, I have no idea if it will be useful. Let’s just avoid jumping to conclusions until someone at least tries it.

JobooAGS

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

you can stack them both

Two taunts in PVP? Or 3 skills if you get Major and Minor Breach from different sources. How many bar slots do you have?

It’s seemingly less of a damage increase than casting Major Sorcery or Brutality, and only applies to a single enemy.

Anyway, I have no idea if it will be useful. Let’s just avoid jumping to conclusions until someone at least tries it.

Physical damage gives you minor breach very consistently, major breach is on alot of skills. So you only need 2 skills to get all 3 debuffs. And unless you are using tremorscale, a taunt skill isnt that useful for the taunt itself. So I am not sure what your point is.

Also every build barring maybe a few niche builds should have a source of major brutality/sorcery, in which there are various sources.

Jameson18

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Two taunts in PVP? Or 3 skills if you get Major and Minor Breach from different sources. How many bar slots do you have?

It’s seemingly less of a damage increase than casting Major Sorcery or Brutality, and only applies to a single enemy.

Anyway, I have no idea if it will be useful. Let’s just avoid jumping to conclusions until someone at least tries it.

Focused Aim > LA ani cancel new Crushing Wep > Inner Beast > Enjoy in your preferred order

Tommy_The_Gun

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

People gained 20% tankyness this patch (going from 50% to 60% mitigation is 20% more tankyness). Nobody would ever die 1on1 or through heals without this new skill

Tbh. They should keep Battle Spirit dmg taken bonus as it is now on live (44%) but instead revert health recovery nerf. Right now Battle Spirit has this 50% nerf to health recovery stat. And as far as I can tell all the troubles with TTK (Time to kill) being too low started when they nerfed health recovery in PvP.

relentless_turnip

It's mental... Everyone was complaining about crystal weapon, but why would you run that over crushing and have full uptime on major breach? And inner beast is adding more damage to your build than the mitigation they added to battlespirit. By a fairly large margin because battlespirit is calculated multiplicatively with your other sources of mitigation. Where as inner beast will apply additively with your other sources of damage multipliers.

It is 5% more damage than major vulnerability which you need to have 250 ult and be a necro to achieve😂.

Just a quick build I threw together for my stamsorc next patch. I have used other debuffs to make up the same numbers.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=363822

StaticWave

Everyone gets an effective 22% extra mitigation through battle spirit. Damage drops to the bottom on PTS as we know it. While Inner Beast's 15% looks broken, it is actually not when you factor in the free 22% mitigation everyone gets. Now you have to make a choice - to slot Inner Beast and get back some of the live patch's dmg at the cost of an ability slot, or do less dmg overall but be able to use other abilities.

WrathOfInnos

Jameson18 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Two taunts in PVP? Or 3 skills if you get Major and Minor Breach from different sources. How many bar slots do you have?

It’s seemingly less of a damage increase than casting Major Sorcery or Brutality, and only applies to a single enemy.

Anyway, I have no idea if it will be useful. Let’s just avoid jumping to conclusions until someone at least tries it.

Focused Aim > LA ani cancel new Crushing Wep > Inner Beast > Enjoy in your preferred order

Yes that is an option. Now you’ve used 3/5 slots on that bar, and none of the light attacks or skills you’ve landed so far received the 12% buff from Inner Beast. The third skill cast did less than half the damage of another Focused Aim, and consumed a critical GCD in the burst combo. What makes you so convinced that it’s overpowered?

Wuuffyy

StaticWave wrote: »

Everyone gets an effective 22% extra mitigation through battle spirit. Damage drops to the bottom on PTS as we know it. While Inner Beast's 15% looks broken, it is actually not when you factor in the free 22% mitigation everyone gets. Now you have to make a choice - to slot Inner Beast and get back some of the live patch's dmg at the cost of an ability slot, or do less dmg overall but be able to use other abilities.

That isn’t sacrifice and individual damage was buffed in many areas. The idea was to lower damage, not increase it.

StaticWave

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Everyone gets an effective 22% extra mitigation through battle spirit. Damage drops to the bottom on PTS as we know it. While Inner Beast's 15% looks broken, it is actually not when you factor in the free 22% mitigation everyone gets. Now you have to make a choice - to slot Inner Beast and get back some of the live patch's dmg at the cost of an ability slot, or do less dmg overall but be able to use other abilities.

That isn’t sacrifice and individual damage was buffed in many areas. The idea was to lower damage, not increase it.

And I'm telling you right now that damage on pts is too low. Do you actually test or are you just speculating?

Wuuffyy

StaticWave wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Everyone gets an effective 22% extra mitigation through battle spirit. Damage drops to the bottom on PTS as we know it. While Inner Beast's 15% looks broken, it is actually not when you factor in the free 22% mitigation everyone gets. Now you have to make a choice - to slot Inner Beast and get back some of the live patch's dmg at the cost of an ability slot, or do less dmg overall but be able to use other abilities.

That isn’t sacrifice and individual damage was buffed in many areas. The idea was to lower damage, not increase it.

And I'm telling you right now that damage on pts is too low. Do you actually test or are you just speculating?

Not an excuse. If damage is too low, battle spirit needs to be scaled back. Not this. All I’m saying on the matter to you or anyone with this mindset.

Lughlongarm

It does

axi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

In PvP You can use both.

lucky_Sage

I don’t think the ttk is a problem on live. Faster fights end the less abilities go off the less lag they have been trying to nerf tanks finally have a meta where ttk is good but now they won’t to nerf it because there are high burst sorcs and nb when that’s there class job is burst and run. They needed proxy so no more solo bombs ttk is fine in live

axi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

WrathOfInnos

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

That calculation is not complete. 9k pen reduces enemy armor mitigation by 13.6%, but the increase to damage is higher. For example, if an opponent had 9k resistance you’d be dealing 86.4% of your damage potential to them before Pierce, then after removing that 9k they have 0 resistance and take 100% of your damage. 100% / 86.4% = 1.157 or a 15.7% damage increase.

Another example would be an opponent with 33k armor remaining before pierce (50% mitigation) and 24k after pierce (36.4% mitigation). Now the difference in damage is 63.6% / 50% = 1.272 or a 27.2% damage increase from Pierce Armor’s 9k debuff.

ExistingRug61

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

That calculation is not complete. 9k pen reduces enemy armor mitigation by 13.6%, but the increase to damage is higher. For example, if an opponent had 9k resistance you’d be dealing 86.4% of your damage potential to them before Pierce, then after removing that 9k they have 0 resistance and take 100% of your damage. 100% / 86.4% = 1.157 or a 15.7% damage increase.

Another example would be an opponent with 33k armor remaining before pierce (50% mitigation) and 24k after pierce (36.4% mitigation). Now the difference in damage is 63.6% / 50% = 1.272 or a 27.2% damage increase from Pierce Armor’s 9k debuff.

@WrathOfInnos the calculation also isn’t complete for inner beasts bonus for the same reason, depending on how exactly it fits into the damage mitigation formula.

I will put the following proviso that I haven’t tested this myself but is based off the great thread by paulsimonps
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021/p1
And an assumption that inner beast will work like vulnerabilities (this hasn’t been tested but seems like the most likely case).

If you check the OP of that thread on vulnerabilities, it explains that these (along with the armour bonuses) are actually additive with the 10% base mitigation before being multiplicative with all the other factors.

So, assuming inner beast works like vulnerabilities, this means that there is potential that inner beast gives a different relative amount.

Ie: if used on a target in 7 light and you are using magical attacks:
The effect of a 15% vulnerability would change that part of the mitigation calculation from 17% (base plus light) to 2% (base plus light - 15%).
So damage taken changes from 83% to 98%, which is an ~18% increase.

However, obviously the reverse is also true and if inner beast works as a vulnerability then if stacked with other vulnerabilities (ie: flame vs vamp, major and minor vuln, armour weakness) then it can also be less than 15% as well.

None of this really changes your point though as it’s not a big difference in comparison to the potential of pierce, I just figure if we’re being clear on the exact value of pen then we should also be for inner beast (as you may have noticed I am being a bit mathy nit picky in my comments today).

Also, I guess it does mean there is an edge case where inner beast can provide more damage than pierce, albeit not a common one: against someone in 7 light armour when you are using magical damage or against someone in 7 heavy when you are using martial damage, and they somehow have really low resistance or you already have enough pen that pierce only gives close to it’s minimum relative increase.

the1andonlyskwex

I'm not sure I would call the new Inner Beast OP, but I also don't think ZOS accounted for its effect on PvP in their decision to buff it.

I get the idea of wanting to support DPS/Tank hybrids in PvE (as described in the patch notes), but that kind of needs to be done in a way that doesn't also mess with PvP balance. In PvP, Inner Beast's taunt isn't a deterrent to DPS slotting it (and even if it were, we don't really need the tankiest builds doing even more damage than they do now).

axi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

That calculation is not complete. 9k pen reduces enemy armor mitigation by 13.6%, but the increase to damage is higher. For example, if an opponent had 9k resistance you’d be dealing 86.4% of your damage potential to them before Pierce, then after removing that 9k they have 0 resistance and take 100% of your damage. 100% / 86.4% = 1.157 or a 15.7% damage increase.

Another example would be an opponent with 33k armor remaining before pierce (50% mitigation) and 24k after pierce (36.4% mitigation). Now the difference in damage is 63.6% / 50% = 1.272 or a 27.2% damage increase from Pierce Armor’s 9k debuff.

Well tbf Your calculations are also incomplete not only because of what was said by @ExistingRug61 but also because You assumed in Your calculations that resists will be the only source of damage mitigation completly ignoring things like battle spirit and other sources of dmg mitigation which will make things way less drastic then what You've presented.

WrathOfInnos

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

That calculation is not complete. 9k pen reduces enemy armor mitigation by 13.6%, but the increase to damage is higher. For example, if an opponent had 9k resistance you’d be dealing 86.4% of your damage potential to them before Pierce, then after removing that 9k they have 0 resistance and take 100% of your damage. 100% / 86.4% = 1.157 or a 15.7% damage increase.

Another example would be an opponent with 33k armor remaining before pierce (50% mitigation) and 24k after pierce (36.4% mitigation). Now the difference in damage is 63.6% / 50% = 1.272 or a 27.2% damage increase from Pierce Armor’s 9k debuff.

Well tbf Your calculations are also incomplete not only because of what was said by @ExistingRug61 but also because You assumed in Your calculations that resists will be the only source of damage mitigation completly ignoring things like battle spirit and other sources of dmg mitigation which will make things way less drastic then what You've presented.

Everything I said about Pierce is true regardless of battle spirit and other sources of mitigation. That’s why I showed it in terms of % damage increase, not an arbitrary flat value. Armor is multiplicative with all other forms of mitigation.

I didn’t comment on how how the game calculates Inner Beast in the damage formula because I don’t know for sure. I’d assume it is additive with other vulnerabilities, but if that isn’t the case I didn’t want to spread misinformation. I’m glad ExistingRug presented a convincing theory based on previous testing, but none of us really know the answer with certainty.

Jameson18

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yes that is an option. Now you’ve used 3/5 slots on that bar, and none of the light attacks or skills you’ve landed so far received the 12% buff from Inner Beast. The third skill cast did less than half the damage of another Focused Aim, and consumed a critical GCD in the burst combo. What makes you so convinced that it’s overpowered?

> Enjoy in your preferred order

ExistingRug61

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Because if it does it's OP af.

This sounds almost like a nerf request without any testing. It’s significantly less of a damage increase than Pierce Armor (by removing ~9k armor).

Actually @WrathOfInnos 9k pen is not adding significantly more dmg then 15% damage taken debuff. in PvP 660 pen = 1% dmg so 9k pen = 13,5% more dmg when inner beast is 15% more dmg taken and dmg taken debuffs are being calculated separately from dmg done buffs.

That calculation is not complete. 9k pen reduces enemy armor mitigation by 13.6%, but the increase to damage is higher. For example, if an opponent had 9k resistance you’d be dealing 86.4% of your damage potential to them before Pierce, then after removing that 9k they have 0 resistance and take 100% of your damage. 100% / 86.4% = 1.157 or a 15.7% damage increase.

Another example would be an opponent with 33k armor remaining before pierce (50% mitigation) and 24k after pierce (36.4% mitigation). Now the difference in damage is 63.6% / 50% = 1.272 or a 27.2% damage increase from Pierce Armor’s 9k debuff.

Well tbf Your calculations are also incomplete not only because of what was said by @ExistingRug61 but also because You assumed in Your calculations that resists will be the only source of damage mitigation completly ignoring things like battle spirit and other sources of dmg mitigation which will make things way less drastic then what You've presented.

No, what WrathofInnos did was correct for pierce, everything else is multiplicative with resistance so what he showed is correctly the relative damage change for that.

It was only that vulnerabilities work a bit differently with each other (before again being multiplicative with everything else) so if inner beast works with them it would mean a small variation in inner beasts relative effect. But as I tried to make clear, this is an assumption that inner beast works like other vulnerabilities, as inner beast hasn’t been specifically tested. So as wrath said it is still just a theory (but a likely one in so I thought it was worth raising), whereas what he put is correct based on all previous testing.

Kusto

I haven't tested it in pvp yet but on target dummy it gave me extra 4-5k dps (from 100k to 104 now). You obviously can't use it in pve group content and for soloing it's not worth the slot for me. On 6 mil dummy I parse slightly over 50k and with inner rage only adding 2-3k. But I have to sacrifice survivability. Same for pvp I guess. Theres simply not enough skill slots. Its seems OP on paper but you will never hit 15% harder, more like 7-8% max and you'll lose utility or survivability.