Is anyone overlooking the fact they just gutted medium armor

RandomKodiak

Yes I did post earlier that on the parses I tested we as Stam builds didn't really lose any ground and even gained ever so slightly. What I did not post was anything saying we will now be welcome in trials. The parse dummy is just that, it shows you can under perfect conditions execute a certain amount of damage. As far as Stam in trials that is all on ZoS . All 4 of the last trials have had at least one boss where you have to stay at range for 30% of the fight or so. That is the mechanics introduced by ZoS while still going with the "But Stam has higher potential damage, so risk vs reward ....blah ..blah ...blah.". Until ZoS actually admits they have made the situation themselves Mag will continue to be the prefered way to go with trials. They have also created the situation where they cannot buff Stam anymore for that Risk vs. Reward because then it would jump even farther in PvP where it already, combined with heavy, rules by far. I agree they need to figure a way to pull the two playstyles from each other, I fully agree as a Stam main that they need to find a way to make actual mixed groups viable again in trials (they did used to be). If my posts earlier were misconstrued I am sorry I was merely stating for the content we are able to do now we did not lose any ground, I wish they would fix the situation they have created with trials as much as anyone. Please continue to fight for Stam in trials, [snip] The claim they have tanked Stam is just not valid though we didn't gain any ground with these changes but we didn't lose any either [snip]

[edited for Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

ADarklore

Well... it's a good thing my Stamblade already slots Camo Hunter and uses Thief mundus.

Septimus_Magna

RogueShark wrote: »

Taking crit chance without even giving us penetration. I already sit at sub 50% crit when I have to run lover in content.
This is ridiculous. Mag already has so many more legs up in PvE.

But you do get more pen in medium, there is a new set that gives 3k pen and Alkosh is buffed to give 6k pen.
Stam DDs will easily reach the pen cap in a decent group without running the Lover mundus.

From running DW daggers you get slightly more crit chance than LA passive give, you only lose out on 1h precise compared to 2h precise that mag DDs run.

Bl4ckR3alm93

RandomKodiak wrote: »

Yes I did post earlier that on the parses I tested we as Stam builds didn't really lose any ground and even gained ever so slightly. What I did not post was anything saying we will now be welcome in trials. The parse dummy is just that, it shows you can under perfect conditions execute a certain amount of damage. As far as Stam in trials that is all on ZoS . All 4 of the last trials have had at least one boss where you have to stay at range for 30% of the fight or so. That is the mechanics introduced by ZoS while still going with the "But Stam has higher potential damage, so risk vs reward ....blah ..blah ...blah.". Until ZoS actually admits they have made the situation themselves Mag will continue to be the prefered way to go with trials. They have also created the situation where they cannot buff Stam anymore for that Risk vs. Reward because then it would jump even farther in PvP where it already, combined with heavy, rules by far. I agree they need to figure a way to pull the two playstyles from each other, I fully agree as a Stam main that they need to find a way to make actual mixed groups viable again in trials (they did used to be). If my posts earlier were misconstrued I am sorry I was merely stating for the content we are able to do now we did not lose any ground, I wish they would fix the situation they have created with trials as much as anyone. Please continue to fight for Stam in trials, [snip] The claim they have tanked Stam is just not valid though we didn't gain any ground with these changes but we didn't lose any either [snip]

[edited for Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

Is the increased crit damage from Dexterity 14% crit damage or 7% on the PTS?

RogueShark

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Taking crit chance without even giving us penetration. I already sit at sub 50% crit when I have to run lover in content.
This is ridiculous. Mag already has so many more legs up in PvE.

But you do get more pen in medium, there is a new set that gives 3k pen and Alkosh is buffed to give 6k pen.
Stam DDs will easily reach the pen cap in a decent group without running the Lover mundus.

From running DW daggers you get slightly more crit chance than LA passive give, you only lose out on 1h precise compared to 2h precise that mag DDs run.

Introducing more support sets that provide penetration doesn't help stam at all. We already have alkosh and none of my groups run it. Why would they? I'm the only stam; seven of the eight DPS are at pen cap without needing help from the supports. Next patch, they're not going to run the new penetration set either, because... none of the other DPS in the group need it (unless there's some shakeup or reason to run it otherwise).

I run DW, and instead of farming for maces I usually opt for Lover + 1 sharpened, double daggers. In the setup I use currently for my trifecta groups, I sit at 6827 penetration and, with weapon power pot. 49.2% crit. This leaves me, with infused crusher and major and minor breach, still 2k pen to pick up. If I wanted to, I could grab a mace and be at about 400 under cap, but at the cost, again, to crit. I usually just eat the lack of pen.

Sets offering pen =/= 'getting pen in medium armor' when most groups want mag and mag doesn't need pen. It isn't even a matter of it being a "decent' group, it's me being a decent enough DPS and my friends being GENEROUS enough to take a stam to trifecta groups when it's just easier to throw in another mag.

Edit: I think the biggest "problem" isn't necessarily stam lacking pen or having to run different sets or whatever. It comes down to mag is just more desired in content because of the way ZoS designs things. Mag is easier, it can be done at range, handle mechanics better, etc. Stam doesn't bring enough to the table in comparison, when mag can hit the numbers required, too. This is why adding support sets for stam, like more pen, doesn't really solve anything.

BattleAxe

RogueShark wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Taking crit chance without even giving us penetration. I already sit at sub 50% crit when I have to run lover in content.
This is ridiculous. Mag already has so many more legs up in PvE.

But you do get more pen in medium, there is a new set that gives 3k pen and Alkosh is buffed to give 6k pen.
Stam DDs will easily reach the pen cap in a decent group without running the Lover mundus.

From running DW daggers you get slightly more crit chance than LA passive give, you only lose out on 1h precise compared to 2h precise that mag DDs run.

Introducing more support sets that provide penetration doesn't help stam at all. We already have alkosh and none of my groups run it. Why would they? I'm the only stam; seven of the eight DPS are at pen cap without needing help from the supports. Next patch, they're not going to run the new penetration set either, because... none of the other DPS in the group need it (unless there's some shakeup or reason to run it otherwise).

I run DW, and instead of farming for maces I usually opt for Lover + 1 sharpened, double daggers. In the setup I use currently for my trifecta groups, I sit at 6827 penetration and, with weapon power pot. 49.2% crit. This leaves me, with infused crusher and major and minor breach, still 2k pen to pick up. If I wanted to, I could grab a mace and be at about 400 under cap, but at the cost, again, to crit. I usually just eat the lack of pen.

Sets offering pen =/= 'getting pen in medium armor' when most groups want mag and mag doesn't need pen. It isn't even a matter of it being a "decent' group, it's me being a decent enough DPS and my friends being GENEROUS enough to take a stam to trifecta groups when it's just easier to throw in another mag.

Edit: I think the biggest "problem" isn't necessarily stam lacking pen or having to run different sets or whatever. It comes down to mag is just more desired in content because of the way ZoS designs things. Mag is easier, it can be done at range, handle mechanics better, etc. Stam doesn't bring enough to the table in comparison, when mag can hit the numbers required, too. This is why adding support sets for stam, like more pen, doesn't really solve anything.

With changes and addition of stam support sets it opens door for full stam composition trials. With the new tank set stam only really needs about 600-700 penetration

Septimus_Magna

RogueShark wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

Taking crit chance without even giving us penetration. I already sit at sub 50% crit when I have to run lover in content.
This is ridiculous. Mag already has so many more legs up in PvE.

But you do get more pen in medium, there is a new set that gives 3k pen and Alkosh is buffed to give 6k pen.
Stam DDs will easily reach the pen cap in a decent group without running the Lover mundus.

From running DW daggers you get slightly more crit chance than LA passive give, you only lose out on 1h precise compared to 2h precise that mag DDs run.

Introducing more support sets that provide penetration doesn't help stam at all. We already have alkosh and none of my groups run it. Why would they? I'm the only stam; seven of the eight DPS are at pen cap without needing help from the supports. Next patch, they're not going to run the new penetration set either, because... none of the other DPS in the group need it (unless there's some shakeup or reason to run it otherwise).

I run DW, and instead of farming for maces I usually opt for Lover + 1 sharpened, double daggers. In the setup I use currently for my trifecta groups, I sit at 6827 penetration and, with weapon power pot. 49.2% crit. This leaves me, with infused crusher and major and minor breach, still 2k pen to pick up. If I wanted to, I could grab a mace and be at about 400 under cap, but at the cost, again, to crit. I usually just eat the lack of pen.

Sets offering pen =/= 'getting pen in medium armor' when most groups want mag and mag doesn't need pen. It isn't even a matter of it being a "decent' group, it's me being a decent enough DPS and my friends being GENEROUS enough to take a stam to trifecta groups when it's just easier to throw in another mag.

Edit: I think the biggest "problem" isn't necessarily stam lacking pen or having to run different sets or whatever. It comes down to mag is just more desired in content because of the way ZoS designs things. Mag is easier, it can be done at range, handle mechanics better, etc. Stam doesn't bring enough to the table in comparison, when mag can hit the numbers required, too. This is why adding support sets for stam, like more pen, doesn't really solve anything.

Yeah, if you're the exception as stam DD in the group I can understand they wont run support sets to increase pen.

I was referring to groups with a couple stam DDs, COR is a nice support set that procs easily and can be used by the off-tank as well. Alkosh is more difficult to use due to the conal hit area and synergy you need to proc it. In fights with many adds COR is also pretty nice for mag DD groups because you cannot proc infused crusher on all the enemies.

And to add to that, stam DDs can wear 1 or 2 light pieces to increase pen and crit chance which might be a viable option too.

Tannus15

Pfffft, medium is fine!

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Disclaimer: I hate this hybridization, because I argue that it eliminates the impact of chosing playstyle.

What should have been done, is to simply improve on what the weight already gave. Since most end game DPS ran thief, why not buff the crit of stam so they could move away to lover, or shadow if they made a sacrifice somewhere else for extra pen.

Anyron

I don't understand why there us so much hate about armor changes. They did what we asked for. They enabled, for mag to use medium armor and for stam to use light armor.

Now you can build it as you like. You can wear light armor for its penetration on stam toon which should help. As i remember when they changed proc sets biggest argument for stam to have more damage was because mag has penetration. Now both can have it.

universal_wrath

BattleAxe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I saw the changes and thought that 3/3/1 is finally looking fairly decent for Mag and Stam specs in PVP. Lowers the damage taken from stam by wearing more med, but still gaining spell damage and crit damage. And I saw in another thread that it ends up only being like a 1% damage loss for PVE.

Well it amounts to much more than 1% as the besides AY all other pve stam sets are medium.
Deadly medium
Rele medium
Kinras medium
Alkosh medium
Lokke again medium

In other words stam dds are going to be hit extremely hard if this goes live as is

You will have to rethink what is meta or whst yoy should wear. This also true for mag specs too.

L_Nici

No, its not ignored. In fact in the feedback thread it was brought up a few times that this change is a very bad one. Loosing Critchance on Medium armor is a heavy nerf to everyone except NBs in PvE and PvP.

On my PvP-Stamblade I would have 134% Critdamage on a Bosmer with 4 Divine, 3 Well fitted and still retain 43% Critchance via class passives without a set invested. While my PvP-Stamsorc will fall below 20% Critchance unless I use an entire 5 piece like Leviathan to get up to 34% (that is even with camouflaged hunter slotted...) thats absolutely not worth it anymore, so Critsurge for example is a dead skill now and Malacaths Band of Brutality will be even stronger again.

Its so hard already to get Critchance on any Stamina Class aside NBs. To make it even harder is bad for PvP and PvE and the class that did deal that insane damage over the past weeks which people complained about like usual during MYM gets buffed insanely because it gains 14% Critdamage to no loss, because NBs can crit on demand anyway.

neferpitou73

L_Nici wrote: »

No, its not ignored. In fact in the feedback thread it was brought up a few times that this change is a very bad one. Loosing Critchance on Medium armor is a heavy nerf to everyone except NBs in PvE and PvP.

On my PvP-Stamblade I would have 134% Critdamage on a Bosmer with 4 Divine, 3 Well fitted and still retain 43% Critchance via class passives without a set invested. While my PvP-Stamsorc will fall below 20% Critchance unless I use an entire 5 piece like Leviathan to get up to 34% (that is even with camouflaged hunter slotted...) thats absolutely not worth it anymore, so Critsurge for example is a dead skill now and Malacaths Band of Brutality will be even stronger again.

Its so hard already to get Critchance on any Stamina Class aside NBs. To make it even harder is bad for PvP and PvE and the class that did deal that insane damage over the past weeks which people complained about like usual during MYM gets buffed insanely because it gains 14% Critdamage to no loss, because NBs can crit on demand anyway.

Most pvp builds should be stacking weapon dmg or pen anyway. Unless you’re going for something unique. In pvp at least this is a buff to medium since magicka skills like proxy and J beam will hit even harder on stam toons

L_Nici

@neferpitou73 Well my main concern is about Stamsorcs especially those that use Critical Surge, either because they can't run Rally if they don't use 2h, or because they need the heal. I run Crit on Stamsorc since many years with stuff like Briarheart for example till Briarheart got nerfed to the ground in the last patch by scaling of Stamina instead of Weapon Damage, it was great and one of the only ways to compete with any other class, since you have no strong Burstheal. Dark Deal has 1 Second casttime and will get interrupted by anything and then even only heal about 4k Health, which is nothing compared to many other heals other classes have without any casttime. Now with that change on Medium armor as I said my Critdamage will reach about 36% with a full set (Leviathan) invested into it and slotting Camouflaged Hunter, thats just not acceptable, while Magicka gets Crit thrown after them. If I would take Heartland Conquerer in and even get a precise weapon I have 50% Chance, but only 7k Weapon Damage and 5k Pen. So I would sacrifice 2 things for 1, while everyone else can just don't care about crit and get Pen and Weapon damage for free.
The only Stamina class that will be able to use crit efficiently will be NBs and get buffed even more now because they crit on demand, while everyone else will just be forced stronger than ever on Malacath. Overall it can't be a buff for anything thats not a NB, of what use is Critdamage, if you have 10% Critchance.

Not to mention PvE where Stamina is bad already and now will be absolute garbage, since it can't even crit anymore.

francesinhalover

Nice i was forced to grind ,buy ,gold daggers, now i have to do it all again. Can i get free 50k gold has compensation?
Such a horrible decision. I can barely reach 55% crit and i'm using the thief stone for extra crit
now i wont even reach 45 , might has well just go full dmg.
It's becoming a joke at this point, just separate pvp from pve, it's legit the reason i can't bother with this games vet content.
Remove animations Areas from cyro, if the server is too weak. idk , just separate it.

It's legit better to just go full dmg.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Anyron wrote: »

I don't understand why there us so much hate about armor changes. They did what we asked for. They enabled, for mag to use medium armor and for stam to use light armor.

Now you can build it as you like. You can wear light armor for its penetration on stam toon which should help. As i remember when they changed proc sets biggest argument for stam to have more damage was because mag has penetration. Now both can have it.

I did not ask for this at all, people asked for stamina tuning. What can a stamina build do with the elemental catalyst set, what will a stamina build get from the 3-4 pieces of any light armor set? This has change done nothing to help stam?

francesinhalover

I just noticed https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/concentration Now gives also ofensive penetration.
So i can see the future Meta being 5 Medium armor 2 Light armor.

I just wish i could get gold for all the equipment i need to buy or craft.

That being said alkosh gives 6k pen now, so any stam users can easily reach max pen cap, that is IF ANYONE EVEN USES STAM ON TRIALS ANYMORE.

Bl4ckR3alm93

Yeah but for PVE, why would stam builds sacrifice 2% weapon/ spell damage, 2% crit damage/healing done, reduce cost, stamina recovery for just 1-2% crit chance and 900-1800 penetration while also taking in the light armor penalties. Mace/Maul is enough to get 3300 penetration while wearing Tzogvin's for another 1400 penetration. I currently have 5500 weapon penetration on console using two handed maul and bow with precise traits. I would rather a tweek and here are my suggestions below

1. Dexterity - 7% Critical Chance (Current passive)

Option 1

2. Dexterity - 14% Critical Damage and 3% Critical Chance ( 3% for balance purposes otherwise I think ZoS can do 5% Critical Chance but if not 5%, than atleast 3% )

Option 2

3. Dexterity - 14% Critical Damage and 14% Healing Received/or Healing Taken ( reason being for optimized groups where DPS doesnt run heals because of the Healer. Current PTS is healing done and would be useless if you dont have any heals. With Healing Taken, stams will always benefit from this passive )

virtus753

francesinhalover wrote: »

I just noticed https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/concentration Now gives also ofensive penetration.
So i can see the future Meta being 5 Medium armor 2 Light armor.

I just wish i could get gold for all the equipment i need to buy or craft.

That being said alkosh gives 6k pen now, so any stam users can easily reach max pen cap, that is IF ANYONE EVEN USES STAM ON TRIALS ANYMORE.

Sustain is something to keep in mind with the 40% nerf to Rejuvenation on top of each piece of light armor costing 4% stam regen and 2% reduction to stam costs. Not to mention you would need to find a second piece that can come in light to make that work. Combining some of the current top stam sets like AY and Rele with the Kilt just doesn’t allow for 2 light armor pieces.

Alkosh also doesn’t give a flat 6k pen now. It *can* give *up to* 6k pen, but its value still depends entirely on the weapon damage of the user. Now a stam dps will reach that easily in a decent setup, but if a stam dps is running Alkosh, they’re sacrificing quite a bit for the group. With a full stam trial group, that *might* be one thing: Major/Minor Breach plus an infused crusher and a 6k Alkosh leaves only 1170 pen to make up, and running 1 light armor would mostly fill that out (only 231 resists left) without sacrificing a precise off-hand for sharpened (when almost 30% of sharpened’s pen would be wasted). But in a mixed group, that’s a big sacrifice for not a lot of extra group dps: mag doesn’t need anywhere near 6k pen to reach cap even without an infused crusher, so mixed groups will continue to find ways to fill the smaller mag gap with less expensive resistance debuffs, and even more of a 6k Alkosh tooltip would be wasted, including for stam. (Mag in 5 light needs to bridge only 2475 with infused crusher or 4583 without; 6 light reduces those numbers to 1536 and 3644, respectively.)

And if COR becomes “the new COR group set” that the devs hope, then that leaves 3629 resists to get through when using infused crusher (5737 without). Mag would already be overpenetrating with COR due to Concentration alone (unless crusher is dropped), and 2371 of Alkosh’s new 6k cap would be entirely wasted even on stam. (Now dropping infused crusher would mean only 263 of a 6k Alkosh would be wasted for stam, but with only a 6k Alkosh and COR, a mag dps would be overpenetrating by at least 4958.) Instead of sacrificing for Alkosh, stam in a mixed group with COR would probably be better off running a sharpened mace to try to close that 3629 gap, as there’s no achievable crit damage percentage in game that makes the crit rating of a dagger or precise trait outweigh 1650 or 1638 pen, respectively, when not at pen cap. Essentially, in a mixed group with a 6k Alkosh either mag will overpen or stam will underpen, so something is being wasted regardless.

There’s a reason even the devs admitted dps probably still won’t run it.

Styxius

The changes are fine to Medium armor in practice, Kinras and AY both are producing nearly identical results even when adding Elemental catalyst to the trial dummy.

starkerealm

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm thinking the intention is to push light armor for crit chance and penetration for stam or mag builds, while medium will push raw damage stat and critical damage. This would lead players to gravitate toward one or the other, depending on what they are building for and you shouldn't be tied to an armor weight based on your damage spec (mag or stam). You could mix them if you want some of each. I'm not suggesting that idea is good, bad or anything. It just appears that's what they are going for. In theory, that works fine for crafted gear, but drop gear only comes in one weight so you will have limited options in reality.

In short, if you want crit chance, it appears that you'll be gravitating toward light armor to achieve that goal, assuming the prodigy passive got the same hybrid treatment as everything else.

Yeah, this is looking like the goal. ZOS seems to be moving towards a system where everything is partially hybridized. The big problem is, we've got 7 years of mag sets as light, and stam sets as medium. So, while the stat change is interesting, the existing itemization is going to need some serious love, or we're going to be in a very awkward situation shortly.

YandereGirlfriend

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm thinking the intention is to push light armor for crit chance and penetration for stam or mag builds, while medium will push raw damage stat and critical damage. This would lead players to gravitate toward one or the other, depending on what they are building for and you shouldn't be tied to an armor weight based on your damage spec (mag or stam). You could mix them if you want some of each. I'm not suggesting that idea is good, bad or anything. It just appears that's what they are going for. In theory, that works fine for crafted gear, but drop gear only comes in one weight so you will have limited options in reality.

In short, if you want crit chance, it appears that you'll be gravitating toward light armor to achieve that goal, assuming the prodigy passive got the same hybrid treatment as everything else.

Yeah, this is looking like the goal. ZOS seems to be moving towards a system where everything is partially hybridized. The big problem is, we've got 7 years of mag sets as light, and stam sets as medium. So, while the stat change is interesting, the existing itemization is going to need some serious love, or we're going to be in a very awkward situation shortly.

Allow for reconstruction from the Sticker Book in any weight - bingo, bango, bongo, done!

starkerealm

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm thinking the intention is to push light armor for crit chance and penetration for stam or mag builds, while medium will push raw damage stat and critical damage. This would lead players to gravitate toward one or the other, depending on what they are building for and you shouldn't be tied to an armor weight based on your damage spec (mag or stam). You could mix them if you want some of each. I'm not suggesting that idea is good, bad or anything. It just appears that's what they are going for. In theory, that works fine for crafted gear, but drop gear only comes in one weight so you will have limited options in reality.

In short, if you want crit chance, it appears that you'll be gravitating toward light armor to achieve that goal, assuming the prodigy passive got the same hybrid treatment as everything else.

Yeah, this is looking like the goal. ZOS seems to be moving towards a system where everything is partially hybridized. The big problem is, we've got 7 years of mag sets as light, and stam sets as medium. So, while the stat change is interesting, the existing itemization is going to need some serious love, or we're going to be in a very awkward situation shortly.

Allow for reconstruction from the Sticker Book in any weight - bingo, bango, bongo, done!

One, I would ****ing love that.

Two, That would open up so many more build options than we have right now.

On the second point, I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head whether it would be a net positive or negative, because there are a lot of sets I've simply never considered using in a different weight, because it's not possible currently. But, yeah, if we could reconstruct in new armor weights, that would open up a staggering number of options. The only worry would be if some sets over perform in weights they don't drop in. (We certainly saw a fair amount of that with Jewelry Crafting bringing previously heavy sets into use for DPS.)