Long distance, no warning, light attack insta-death gank is absurdly OP

Theignson

In the history of PvP, The Heavy attack gank builds from stealth were pretty egregious. And so were the snipe ganks. And the Goliath Bash , and the graveyard synergy builds. And, my stam blade ganks are hitting hard these days-- but they require at least 2 and sometimes three rounds of abilities/GCD plus they require you to be right up next to someone. But this long distance Light attack gank is the absolutely worst ZOS has ever allowed to come into the game.

A single light attack from on top of a keep wall, no risk, and the crushing weapon/crystal frag is an insta-drop dead . On my recap, the Power overload doesnt even register any damage; the damage shown hits all at once, is less than my total HP, but I drop dead.

There may be some sort of bug-- since of course crushing weapon needs to have a light attack land to go off, but it doesn't show up on the recap.

With the terrible lag and awful game performance towards the end of MYM I've had several insta-deaths, but this is the aboslutely worst idea ZOS ever had (if it was an idea and not simply something that slipped in).

Marcus_Aurelius

It's a known exploit, crushing weapon/elemental weapn/power overload cause a desync with your client.

I alway tell them they are very good at using exploits but maybe should learn to play proper.

ThePedge

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

It's a known exploit, crushing weapon/elemental weapn/power overload cause a desync with your client.

I alway tell them they are very good at using exploits but maybe should learn to play proper.

If we consider desyncs a exploit we can ban every magsorc in the game.

While ridiculous, I support this.

Marcus_Aurelius

ThePedge wrote: »

If we consider desyncs a exploit we can ban every magsorc in the game.

While ridiculous, I support this.

I don't think it is t too hard to understand that they are doing this on purpose to take adavantage of a broken mechanic.

xylena_lazarow

The enemy's stealth Overload cast should be audible on your client, but isn't. The hits should show up in your death recap or combat log, but don't. Multiple different GCDs of Overload should have about a 1sec delay between hits, but when fired from stealth they "desync" and hit the target's client simultaneously. Nothing about this is working properly, and I'm pretty sure ZOS doesn't actually want no-counterplay one-shots to be a part of this PvP. Until it's fixed, it'll become more common as more players realize you can do this from range safely inside your faction's zerg or atop keep walls.

katorga

Out of curiosity, does the automatic 46% damage from crouch/hidden apply to OL lights?

Fixed an issue where the guaranteed Critical Strike and bonus damage from attacks made while hidden in crouch would fail on many attacks. It will now properly grant a guaranteed Critical Strike on your next Direct Damage attack, deal 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack (now Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks.

Note that change was in PTS 7.0.0 notes, and NOT in the live 7.0.6 notes.

gariondavey

katorga wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does the automatic 46% damage from crouch/hidden apply to OL lights?

Fixed an issue where the guaranteed Critical Strike and bonus damage from attacks made while hidden in crouch would fail on many attacks. It will now properly grant a guaranteed Critical Strike on your next Direct Damage attack, deal 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack (now Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks.

Note that change was in PTS 7.0.0 notes, and NOT in the live 7.0.6 notes.

Bonus dmg is pve, not pvp

katorga

gariondavey wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does the automatic 46% damage from crouch/hidden apply to OL lights?

Fixed an issue where the guaranteed Critical Strike and bonus damage from attacks made while hidden in crouch would fail on many attacks. It will now properly grant a guaranteed Critical Strike on your next Direct Damage attack, deal 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack (now Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks.

Note that change was in PTS 7.0.0 notes, and NOT in the live 7.0.6 notes.

Bonus dmg is pve, not pvp

Could have fooled me, OL hits like a freight train.

Jaimeh

Yup Ive had death recaps with only those 2 things listed (crushing weap/blast), and was hit from stealth and insta wipe. You are standing there like 'WHT happened?'

Reverb

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

If we consider desyncs a exploit we can ban every magsorc in the game.

While ridiculous, I support this.

I don't think it is t too hard to understand that they are doing this on purpose to take adavantage of a broken mechanic.

There’s a well known player who’s been a mainstay of eso pvp since the beginning, who was abusing the hell out of this exploit all weekend. After fighting against someone for 7 years, it’s easy to tell when something is so far outside of his normal play style and obviously abusing a bug. I used to have respect for the guy (even if I didn’t like him much), but not anymore. People who intentionally abuse broken game elements are garbage players.

I will say that this attack combo hits like a truck, has no counters, and registers all of the damage at the same time. I’m sure it is amusing to watch people you used to have good fights with just fall over dead and know there’s nothing that can do to stop you. I understand the appeal, it’s still the path of a garbage player though.

Iki

I did foresee this when I first time saw crystal weapons, only surprised it took so long to become a thing in cyro.
Crystal- and crushing-weapon both should have like 1 second timer to prevent them getting stacked in same light attack.
Also, how about reverting overload to it`s cool original form? Old overload with its third bar was so fun and unique and I don`t remember old overload de-syncing health.

gariondavey

katorga wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does the automatic 46% damage from crouch/hidden apply to OL lights?

Fixed an issue where the guaranteed Critical Strike and bonus damage from attacks made while hidden in crouch would fail on many attacks. It will now properly grant a guaranteed Critical Strike on your next Direct Damage attack, deal 46% bonus damage if a Ranged attack (now Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), 275% bonus damage if a Melee attack (Magical and Martial, rather than only Martial), and Stun the target on Martial or Magical melee attacks.

Note that change was in PTS 7.0.0 notes, and NOT in the live 7.0.6 notes.

Bonus dmg is pve, not pvp

Could have fooled me, OL hits like a freight train.

Go in sneak, do a dw light attack on a pve mob. It does like 20k damage. Now do it on an enemy player. It does like 2-3k or whatever. It doesn't get the 275 percent bonus. Same with the ranged 46 percent. Those bonuses are pve only.

PhoenixGrey

It's overload, ele weapon and frag hitting at the same time. It feels like a desync but it really isn't

Problem is players don't have the aptitude to grasp simple combos.

jaws343

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

It's overload, ele weapon and frag hitting at the same time. It feels like a desync but it really isn't

Problem is players don't have the aptitude to grasp simple combos.

People at sieges, either on the wall or on the ground, often don't pay attention to what is happening. I can't even count the number of players I've dropped on a keep wall who I hit with curse, and then just light attack ele weapon once or twice and they die because they weren't paying attention. No need for frag or overload in many cases. Or they get hit with the curse and try to line of sight away from the edge of the keep wall. But the light attack is already fired and follows them. Since they aren't dodge rolling or healing, they die when the light attack hits and the curse explodes.

IAmIcehouse

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

It's a known exploit, crushing weapon/elemental weapn/power overload cause a desync with your client.

I alway tell them they are very good at using exploits but maybe should learn to play proper.

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

SpiritofESO

gariondavey

SpiritofESO wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

"A bunch of skills landing on a single GCD" is, by its very nature, is an EXPLOIT and NOT INTENDED (unintended is, therefore, "an exploit").

So, yeah, it is stupid, and it is an exploit, but a desync ... probably not.

Lol...when they put different cast times and delays on skills they understand things can be synched up and timed to maximize burst. This is not an exploit. This is the game functioning as intended.

jaws343

gariondavey wrote: »

SpiritofESO wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

"A bunch of skills landing on a single GCD" is, by its very nature, is an EXPLOIT and NOT INTENDED (unintended is, therefore, "an exploit").

So, yeah, it is stupid, and it is an exploit, but a desync ... probably not.

Lol...when they put different cast times and delays on skills they understand things can be synched up and timed to maximize burst. This is not an exploit. This is the game functioning as intended.

Yeah

If Skill X has a travel time of 1 second, and skill Y is instant, casting skill X and then skill Y will land both skills at the same time. That is intended.

If Skill Z can be precast to fire when skill Y lands, you then land all 3 skills at the same time.

All intentional. All fine.

Even take a Sorc force pulse build:

I cast Curse, I cast mages wrath. I hard cast frag and then force pulse.

Force Pulse and crystal frag will land at the exact same time. And in that same instant, Curse will fire. Force Pulse may also fire the weapon enchant. And that is without even considering light attacks. All of this may even proc the wrath execute.

So, 4-6 sources of damage land all at once. But it takes 3 seconds of prep, and it relies heavily on the enemy not dodge rolling immediately after getting cursed. But my point is, some skills are designed to burst and have delays and land at once. And some are not.

Sanctum74

SpiritofESO wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

"A bunch of skills landing on a single GCD" is, by its very nature, is an EXPLOIT and NOT INTENDED (unintended is, therefore, "an exploit").

So, yeah, it is stupid, and it is an exploit, but a desync ... probably not.

Many skills were specifically designed with delays to do just that so it’s clearly playing the game as the devs intended and not an exploit.

Xeniph

I agree with everyones sentiment here.

This is not an exploit, it's clever use of intended mechanics. This is also not a desync, it's properly timed burst rotations. A lot like the supposed "Snipe desyncs" Which did not actually exist.

Now I will say that the first time is saw Crystal Weapons buff time I was astounded and instantly thought of this build, being a ganker since release this seemed like a major oversight by the devs.

However I suppose we can't expect every dev to think like all players in all situations.
The best solution, it seems to me, is to shorten Crystal Weapons buff time to match "Elemental/Crushing's 3 seconds. This would prevent the stacking but keeps it's pve/pvp usefulness.

Other things could be done too, like a redesignation of Overload to Ultimate, rather than Light/Heavy attacks while maintaining it's functionality. Though I prefer the first suggestion.

baselinestun

Xeniph wrote: »

A lot like the supposed "Snipe desyncs" Which did not actually exist.

they did exist and certain players knew how to trigger them at will

xylena_lazarow

Xeniph wrote: »

This is also not a desync, it's properly timed burst rotations.

The "desync" can refer to: multiple different GCDs of Overload landing on your client simultaneously, the client's inability to log the attacks that hit you in your death recap or CMX, or the lack of an audible sound when the first Overload is cast (you'll hear the cast sound after you're already dead server side). I don't understand anyone trying to defend this as "it's skill not desync" for ranged no-counterplay one-shots with multiple layers of mechanics not working properly.

ThePedge

Xeniph wrote: »

I agree with everyones sentiment here.

This is not an exploit, it's clever use of intended mechanics. This is also not a desync, it's properly timed burst rotations. A lot like the supposed "Snipe desyncs" Which did not actually exist.

Now I will say that the first time is saw Crystal Weapons buff time I was astounded and instantly thought of this build, being a ganker since release this seemed like a major oversight by the devs.

However I suppose we can't expect every dev to think like all players in all situations.
The best solution, it seems to me, is to shorten Crystal Weapons buff time to match "Elemental/Crushing's 3 seconds. This would prevent the stacking but keeps it's pve/pvp usefulness.

Other things could be done too, like a redesignation of Overload to Ultimate, rather than Light/Heavy attacks while maintaining it's functionality. Though I prefer the first suggestion.

Desyncs do exist and have existed since I can remember. Snipe, which had a 1s (1.1?) cast time, isn't designed to hit 2 or 3 instances at the same time, from the same player. But this was very common.

Elemental Weapon & Overload too have the same effect. Where they don't hit you when they're meant to, and then hitting multiple at the same time.

Of course 1 Overload & 1 Ele Weapon is meant to hit at the same time. But not being hit by any overloads then being hit by 3 at once is a desync.

Marcus_Aurelius

Right, it's not an exploit, and they don't do it on purpose

Me at full 27 Health, no one hit me before or after
Crystal Weapon/Crushing Weapon/Power Overload (not shown in death recap beacuse hitm me for 0)



All this kills have the same patterns.

ThePedge

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Right, it's not an exploit, and they don't do it on purpose

Me at full 27 Health, no one hit me before or after
Crystal Weapon/Crushing Weapon/Power Overload (not shown in death recap beacuse hitm me for 0)



All this kills have the same patterns.

It is intended that crystal weapon hits at the same time as a light attack

It is intended that crushing weapon hits at the same time as a light attack

It is intended that overload hits at the same time as a light attack

It is intended that glyphs hit at the same time as a light attack

People just decided that they can do all of them at once.

Exploit? No.
Ridiculous? Yes.

And don't mention the death recap, that's always been unreliable.

xylena_lazarow

ThePedge wrote: »

It is intended that...

...that 2+ different GCDs worth of Overload can land on the target's client simultaneously?

katorga

Sanctum74 wrote: »

SpiritofESO wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

"A bunch of skills landing on a single GCD" is, by its very nature, is an EXPLOIT and NOT INTENDED (unintended is, therefore, "an exploit").

So, yeah, it is stupid, and it is an exploit, but a desync ... probably not.

Many skills were specifically designed with delays to do just that so it’s clearly playing the game as the devs intended and not an exploit.

ZOS specifically intends for skills to be cast during multiple GCD and land in a single GCD.

BB, Subassult, Crystal Weapon, Crushing Weapon, Curse, Mages Wrath, POTL, and others. Most classes either had that to begin with or had them added over time (some are better than others).

I'm curious how CW and Crushing are hitting 8K numbers in pvp? They are supposed to align with ZOS's "spammable" standard. I see 8-10K hits from BB and Subassault all the time....now I'm seeing spammables hit almost as hard.It just seems off.

ThePedge

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

It is intended that...

...that 2+ different GCDs worth of Overload can land on the target's client simultaneously?

ThePedge wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I agree with everyones sentiment here.

This is not an exploit, it's clever use of intended mechanics. This is also not a desync, it's properly timed burst rotations. A lot like the supposed "Snipe desyncs" Which did not actually exist.

Now I will say that the first time is saw Crystal Weapons buff time I was astounded and instantly thought of this build, being a ganker since release this seemed like a major oversight by the devs.

However I suppose we can't expect every dev to think like all players in all situations.
The best solution, it seems to me, is to shorten Crystal Weapons buff time to match "Elemental/Crushing's 3 seconds. This would prevent the stacking but keeps it's pve/pvp usefulness.

Other things could be done too, like a redesignation of Overload to Ultimate, rather than Light/Heavy attacks while maintaining it's functionality. Though I prefer the first suggestion.

Desyncs do exist and have existed since I can remember. Snipe, which had a 1s (1.1?) cast time, isn't designed to hit 2 or 3 instances at the same time, from the same player. But this was very common.

Elemental Weapon & Overload too have the same effect. Where they don't hit you when they're meant to, and then hitting multiple at the same time.

Of course 1 Overload & 1 Ele Weapon is meant to hit at the same time. But not being hit by any overloads then being hit by 3 at once is a desync.

Please read the thread.

jaws343

katorga wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

SpiritofESO wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

It's not an exploit and it's not desync. It's just a bunch of skills landing on a single GCD.

But it is stupid. Very very stupid.

"A bunch of skills landing on a single GCD" is, by its very nature, is an EXPLOIT and NOT INTENDED (unintended is, therefore, "an exploit").

So, yeah, it is stupid, and it is an exploit, but a desync ... probably not.

Many skills were specifically designed with delays to do just that so it’s clearly playing the game as the devs intended and not an exploit.

ZOS specifically intends for skills to be cast during multiple GCD and land in a single GCD.

BB, Subassult, Crystal Weapon, Crushing Weapon, Curse, Mages Wrath, POTL, and others. Most classes either had that to begin with or had them added over time (some are better than others).

I'm curious how CW and Crushing are hitting 8K numbers in pvp? They are supposed to align with ZOS's "spammable" standard. I see 8-10K hits from BB and Subassault all the time....now I'm seeing spammables hit almost as hard.It just seems off.

You see those high numbers either off of crits or an opponent with awful defense in their build. Or even likely that the Sorc is built for ganking so they've gone all in offensively. Their tooltip for the spammables may be in the 15K range.

divnyi

ThePedge wrote: »

Desyncs do exist and have existed since I can remember. Snipe, which had a 1s (1.1?) cast time, isn't designed to hit 2 or 3 instances at the same time, from the same player. But this was very common.

It's cyrolag things. Snipes do not desync on their own, I mostly play BGs and you are sound if you immediately break from snipe stun and roll and blockheal.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

or the lack of an audible sound when the first Overload is cast

Player is losing stealth at the first instance of damage. Same thing with snipes - reducing snipe travel time was an actual nerf for burst stacking.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't hear things that happen in stealth?

Raeyleigh

Most of that is working as intended.

The obnoxious part are the desyncs and those can not be fixed by combat balance.
There is a plethora of skills that tend to desync and hit you at a completly different time than they should like snipe, leap, meteor and basicly every ranged skill and all gapclosers. I cant even count how often i get hit mid dodgeroll or through block by things that shouldnt.