Please nerf Crystal Weapon ganking

fred4

This is IMO worse than any nightblade ever was. No one likes being insta-killed without counterplay. It's worse than Snipe builds. It's worse than melee stamblades. At least the latter put themselves out there. Their burst is also not quite instant. Crystal Weapon is from range and, on a ganking build, results in instant death for many targets, even tanky ones. If you think that's fine and should be in the game, fair enough. If you think this is a function of the high damage in the current patch and something should be done about the meta as a whole, fair enough. If you think, like me, that something should be done just about this playstyle - like has been done to rein in nightblade playstyles in the past - then I have the following suggestions:

(A) Make it so that Crystal Weapon cannot be cast out of combat (in PvP). Similar to how you cannot activate Clever Alchemist nor can you carry a Grim Focus stack while out of combat.

(B) At the very least make it so Crystal Weapon uncrouches you and, thus, the sorc may be seen as he / she is preparing the attack.

vesselwiththepestle

Sounds reasonable and wouldn't have an impact on pve.

xylena_lazarow

The other problem is multiple GCDs worth of stealth Overload landing simultaneously on the target's client.

Alucardo

I'm fine with it taking you out of stealth when you cast it, but you should still be allowed to prepare it while out of combat.

nukk3r

I'm against nerfing anything but giving this skill cast time and making the caster visible during the cast seems fair.

Anyron

No, what they should do is make unable to stack crushing weapon with crystal weapon. Crystal weapon is already weird to use and has its own use mostly only on gank builds

On any other build it can hardly by called spammable. Instant skill which works more like cast timed skill. If you cast it 2x, there is no resource return or indication you did it.

Ranged playstyle is already heavily nerfed. Look at bow. What skill should i use as spammable there? Poison arrow? Its more used as execution with poison inj morph.
Snipe? No thank you. I dont want any more haitmail.
Scatter shot? Unusable as spammable because of stupidly small range.

I don't understand why melee is so heavily praised with its dizzy/dawnbreaker/executioner combo, but they still keep nerfing ranged.

Urzigurumash

Anyron wrote: »

I don't understand why melee is so heavily praised with its dizzy/dawnbreaker/executioner combo, but they still keep nerfing ranged.

In my Orcish opinion, this is a big reason why Melee should be balanced to play in Heavy, and Ranged should be balanced to play in Light/Medium. It makes no sense to me that an Archer should be in the same armor setup that a Warrior is, and likewise for Battlemage versus Wizard.

The number of players who want to play purely defensive non-Healer roles in PvP, i.e. "true tanks", isn't large enough to justify Heavy armor being "only for tanks".

It might be easier to balance Ranged vs Melee damage if Armor types could be used as part of that balance.

WrathOfInnos

I think the in-combat requirement would lead to unwanted clunkiness, as would adding a cast time.

Making it pull the caster out of stealth seems like the obvious answer here. And if stacking this + crushing weapon is still a problem then the window to light attack could be reduced from 4s to 2-3s.

fred4

Anyron wrote: »

I don't understand why melee is so heavily praised with its dizzy/dawnbreaker/executioner combo, but they still keep nerfing ranged.

I was once insta-killed at a door in IC by a stamden with a Subterranean, Dizzying, Ultimate combo from behind. However pulling that off is very situational. It literally happend to me once in 6 years. A typical Dizzying / Dawnbreaker / Executioner combo is not instant and is typically something you see coming. The opponent is typically visible and engages in a somewhat prolonged fight. That fight may be as short as a few seconds, but nontheless that's a few seconds. What's different about the stamsorc combo is how viable it is from crouch and that it is truly instant in every sense of the word. Instant from how it feels to the victim and instant in the kill being secured within a single GCD in many cases, even against somewhat tanky players or ones with good dodge roll reflexes.

Snipe combos are not the same. A typical Snipe combo benefits from the out-of-combat "from crouch" stun and you may not be able to react, but it typically kills in 2 GCDs. If you were to slot Radiant Magelight, you could avoid the stun and might just be able to dodge roll the second part of the combo (not in lag, obviously). That's counterplay. Crystal Weapon combos, on the other hand, do not have any active conterplay I can think of. Only being passively tanky. The damage is happening instantly not only from a subjective standpoint, but from a technical one too, e.g. it is happening in a single GCD with no stun required. This is where I personally draw the line.

fred4

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think the in-combat requirement would lead to unwanted clunkiness, as would adding a cast time.

Unwanted by who? As a nightblade main this makes me laugh. Adding clunkiness is the point. All I'm saying is: Welcome to the club, the club where Clever Alchemist before combat was outlawed, where a magblade can only get Major Sorcery before combat from a potion (magblade-specific gripe, I know) and where you have to light attack 5 times in combat to get your burst skill ready.

Kaysha

Nothing to add here. Fred said all that has to be said. 100% agreed.

Elo106

Im on board with the "taken out of stealth on cast" crowd. Cast times should never be the answer though.

Casting only in combat would be the only skill with that mechanic right? Not something I would want Zos to start adding to things.

fred4

Elo106 wrote: »

Casting only in combat would be the only skill with that mechanic right?

Not really. As I've said, Clever Alchemist cannot be activated outside of combat, because it was felt that nightblades using the set became too powerful gankers. This was a change to that set from it's original design. Secondly the construction of some burst skills, Grim Focus and stamsorc's own Bound Armaments, is such that you have to build them in combat, before you can use them. Thirdly every proc set in the game was adjusted to either be a DOT or have a one second proc delay. This was done precisely to facilitate ganking counterplay, e.g. by disallowing a burst proc to happen straight out of cloak. The same goes for the 400ms delay on ultimates, although I do not agree with that one. Having said all that, I'd be happy to try just the uncrouch thing first.

Alucardo

fred4 wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Casting only in combat would be the only skill with that mechanic right?

Not really. As I've said, Clever Alchemist cannot be activated outside of combat, because it was felt that nightblades using the set became too powerful gankers. This was a change to that set from it's original design. Secondly the construction of some burst skills, Grim Focus and stamsorc's own Bound Armaments, is such that you have to build them in combat, before you can use them. Thirdly every proc set in the game was adjusted to either be a DOT or have a one second proc delay. This was done precisely to facilitate ganking counterplay, e.g. by disallowing a burst proc to happen straight out of cloak. The same goes for the 400ms delay on ultimates, although I do not agree with that one. Having said all that, I'd be happy to try just the uncrouch thing first.

Personally I don't think we should compare a set to a skill. They asked if any skills had that mechanic, not sets. As for spectral bow.. I mean, I hit a 28k crit from 30 meters away yesterday, so I think it's fair you need to proc it first.
In general I just feel bad about nerfing a class that was abandoned by zos for years, and when it comes to ganking, I've seen like one stam sorc to hundreds of nightblades.

fred4

Anyron wrote: »

No, what they should do is make unable to stack crushing weapon with crystal weapon. Crystal weapon is already weird to use and has its own use mostly only on gank builds.

Crushing Weapon is by no means a necessity. I've been one shot on my squishier builds (still 28K health) by different combos, including just Crystal + Overload or Crystal + Overload + Silver Shards, which still only counts as a single GCD. Notably I have not been killed by Crystal + Snipe + Silver Shards, which should also be possible. What's probably pushed this build's viability over the edge is Master-At-Arms, Weapons Expert and the homogenisation of offensive penetration, e.g. a dual wield or 2H mace / maul is being used for maximum damage with Overload.

This brings to mind another possibility: Disallow Crystal (and Crushing) Weapon to be used with Overload? For that matter, disallow Weapon's Expert to apply to Overload?

I guess that might affect the PvE crowd. The more I think of it (from a CP perspective), it's Master-At-Arms and Weapon's Expert that are new this patch. I assume those CP slottables apply to Overload.

The reason I've focused on Crystal Weapon over Crushing is that it's a more flexible skill to combo, due to the longer timeout, as well as doing very slightly higher damage. It's also unique to sorc. Adjustments to Crushing / Elemental Weapon would affect other classes, which would be much harder to balance.

fred4

Alucardo wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Casting only in combat would be the only skill with that mechanic right?

Not really. As I've said, Clever Alchemist cannot be activated outside of combat, because it was felt that nightblades using the set became too powerful gankers. This was a change to that set from it's original design. Secondly the construction of some burst skills, Grim Focus and stamsorc's own Bound Armaments, is such that you have to build them in combat, before you can use them. Thirdly every proc set in the game was adjusted to either be a DOT or have a one second proc delay. This was done precisely to facilitate ganking counterplay, e.g. by disallowing a burst proc to happen straight out of cloak. The same goes for the 400ms delay on ultimates, although I do not agree with that one. Having said all that, I'd be happy to try just the uncrouch thing first.

Personally I don't think we should compare a set to a skill. They asked if any skills had that mechanic, not sets. As for spectral bow.. I mean, I hit a 28k crit from 30 meters away yesterday, so I think it's fair you need to proc it first.
In general I just feel bad about nerfing a class that was abandoned by zos for years, and when it comes to ganking, I've seen like one stam sorc to hundreds of nightblades.

They are getting common on PC EU. Also the problem with the spectral bow is that it really doesn't combo with much of anything anymore, due to having gotten the ult delay treatment. Technically that makes it combo with Impale in a single GCD, but due to bar space virtually every nightblade I know treats those skills as mutually exclusive. As to the damage number, stamsorc burst combos higher than 28K. I've been hit well into the mid 30s by the combined burst from Crystal / Crushing / Overload (and Acuity makes them all crit). Again, this is a gank. The spectral bow is never strictly a gank.

Zabagad

I can smell ZOS answer incoming: reduced dmg to crystal shard and a cast time to overload

Alucardo

Zabagad wrote: »

I can smell ZOS answer incoming: reduced dmg to crystal shard and a cast time to overload

It's reasons why this why I'm hesitant to ask for class nerfs, especially to stam sorc which has struggled over the years to get any changes whatsoever.

puupaa

Some time ago I noticed/reported a bug with imbue weapon morphs and crystal weapon that made them do something like 3x damage when you used them behind someone from stealth. I'm guessing they didn't fix it yet?

fred4

puupaa wrote: »

Some time ago I noticed/reported a bug with imbue weapon morphs and crystal weapon that made them do something like 3x damage when you used them behind someone from stealth. I'm guessing they didn't fix it yet?

That should be a PvE feature. Have you checked in PvP? There was something in the Blackwood patchnotes regarding first attack from crouch damage that looked outrageous. It works in PvE, if you're flanking. I tested it immediately against players when Blackwood came out. Did not work. However I did not test Imbuie / Crystal.

divnyi

Anyron wrote: »

No, what they should do is make unable to stack crushing weapon with crystal weapon. Crystal weapon is already weird to use and has its own use mostly only on gank builds

Would use crossbow instead.

divnyi

Nobody notices the elephant in the room: this burst is only possible with crit guaranteed.

Acuity is absolutely horrendously OP in this patch.

Zabagad

Oh it's getting worse - Now I can smell ZOS answer will be: reduced dmg to crystal shard, a cast time to overload and Mech Acurity will only be active with a 2 seconds delay

(just to make it clear - i agreed to fred and something must be done - but we all know ZOS is doing it their way...)

allan0n

fred4 wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Casting only in combat would be the only skill with that mechanic right?

Not really. As I've said, Clever Alchemist cannot be activated outside of combat, because it was felt that nightblades using the set became too powerful gankers. This was a change to that set from it's original design. Secondly the construction of some burst skills, Grim Focus and stamsorc's own Bound Armaments, is such that you have to build them in combat, before you can use them.

Clever Alchemist was changed (like Seventh and other sets in the same vein) because players were finding ways to keep the sets buffs up, and quickly swap it out with another set with an addon to give themselves an unfair advantage. Is them requiring you be in combat to use it annoying? Yes, but Clever Alchemist was and still is most popular on Stamsorc, so "welcome to the club" does not apply.

Secondly, no one in their right mind feels bad for nightblades, especially not this patch. The notion that we should feel bad that they have to light attack 5 times to get a burst skill that hits harder than most ultimates is laughable. That is hands down the most powerful mini game skill in the entire game. Also not having easy access to Major Sorcery is not a magblade specific gripe. Templars, necros and even DKs have that problem (unless you want to use Molten Armaments for a heavy attack build on dk).

I think this is a classic case of being high on Nightblade, and you should probably look in to trying some other classes and playstyles out so you have more well rounded opinion. Don't worry, you aren't the only one. Magsorc mains have this issue as well.

katorga

fred4 wrote: »

This is IMO worse than any nightblade ever was. No one likes being insta-killed without counterplay.

Meh. It is just one of the many things this patch that can insta-kill you without counterplay.

There is something common among all of those builds and it has nothing to do with anything class specific.

Pepegrillos

When I read the topic name, I came in expecting complains about these kinds of builds:

Example 1: https://www.twitch.tv/fengrush/clip/BusyFlaccidHumanTheRinger-vhDSBIo6ZO6ENtJH?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

Example 2: https://www.twitch.tv/fengrush/clip/HonorableLittlePoultryTBCheesePull-dSqwkTXBE3tox5_P?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

xylena_lazarow

katorga wrote: »

It is just one of the many things this patch that can insta-kill you without counterplay.

I don't have problems with NB ganks as long as I am alert and on guard, but multiple GCDs worth of buffed stealth Overload hitting simultaneously from range before the target's client responds is something else entirely. Crushing Crystal Overload Overload deals 30-40k invisible and uncounterable to a tanky target. The desync is so bad that hits don't even show up on the death recap or in your CMX combat log.

alberichtano

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

I don't understand why melee is so heavily praised with its dizzy/dawnbreaker/executioner combo, but they still keep nerfing ranged.

In my Orcish opinion, this is a big reason why Melee should be balanced to play in Heavy, and Ranged should be balanced to play in Light/Medium. It makes no sense to me that an Archer should be in the same armor setup that a Warrior is, and likewise for Battlemage versus Wizard.

The number of players who want to play purely defensive non-Healer roles in PvP, i.e. "true tanks", isn't large enough to justify Heavy armor being "only for tanks".

It might be easier to balance Ranged vs Melee damage if Armor types could be used as part of that balance.

That would make sense if the ridiculous damage taken-penalty was removed from heavy armor. As is, heavy armor is just a nice looking death-trap agains mag-damage. :-(

Urzigurumash

Pepegrillos wrote: »

When I read the topic name, I came in expecting complains about these kinds of builds:

Example 1: https://www.twitch.tv/fengrush/clip/BusyFlaccidHumanTheRinger-vhDSBIo6ZO6ENtJH?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

Example 2: https://www.twitch.tv/fengrush/clip/HonorableLittlePoultryTBCheesePull-dSqwkTXBE3tox5_P?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

Yeah is that what people repeatedly asking for nerfs to Heavy Armor, HP Regen, HP-scaled heals, blocking, S&B, caps to Max HP, etc., want as the meta? Yes I also struggled in vain against Alessian WWs. Maybe somewhere between the two is what we would all enjoy the most? Or no? I don't mean to suggest the player in those clips is a proponent of this meta, or if he's just displaying it, I'm not sure what his take on Gank meta vs Tank meta is.

All the talk about how those above tankish things diminish the necessity of APM doesn't make a ton of sense to me when most fights can resolved in 1 or 2 GCDs. This is what was meant by "skillful combat"? Again, yes I also experienced an all-time high of OW stalemates during the Malacath meta.

Of course I enjoy landing 20k Leaps as I am right now. It's not exactly a challenging way of earning Ks though.

For years people have wanted more Skill Slots. Watching those above clips, seems like we have a few more than we need.

jaws343

divnyi wrote: »

Nobody notices the elephant in the room: this burst is only possible with crit guaranteed.

Acuity is absolutely horrendously OP in this patch.

Acuity requires you to do damage first to proc it. No one is using it to gank.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

It is just one of the many things this patch that can insta-kill you without counterplay.

I don't have problems with NB ganks as long as I am alert and on guard, but multiple GCDs worth of buffed stealth Overload hitting simultaneously from range before the target's client responds is something else entirely. Crushing Crystal Overload Overload deals 30-40k invisible and uncounterable to a tanky target. The desync is so bad that hits don't even show up on the death recap or in your CMX combat log.

Overload desync is a game bug, nothing you can do about that. You don't nerf classes because of a bug, you fix the bug. I don't need crystal weapon to gank people with overload, OL works just fine on my mag sorc to gank.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about nerfing CW. Other classes/builds can do the same thing, just differently.