Tankiness is way too op in PvP

Dagre2

this thread is an example of why so many mmo devs balance their pve and pvp separately.

Syrpynt

Elendir2am wrote: »

Nobody wrote about overland. I wrote about veteran trial Cloudrest, where tanks go in portal without healer support and they tank Zmaja shadow there, who do a lot of damage.

So, ESO has content, where tanks need heal themselves a lot. Decreasing tank healing done (no matter if from skills, sets or both), because they wear heavy armour, is absurd therfore.

If you're tanking without an off healer in portal, that's a personal/group problem. The game can be rebalanced for end game PvE. But the game needs to stop being rebalanced for PvP.

Tanks and dps should need healers for GREAT healing.
Tanks and healers should need dps for GREAT damage.
Healers and dps should need tanks for GREAT defense/buffs.

Blurring the lines between the roles, makes no sense. Just remove roles entirely then! Break the classes apart also while we're at it. These [snip] hybrid roles are pointless, and continues to break content somewhere in the game.

[edited for language]

Luckylancer

Elendir2am wrote: »

Yes, the tank sets are "increased healing received", but the penalty should be "decreased healing done" so you can't get a double bonus for healing yourself. That's the role of a healer.

This whole "tanks need to heal themselves overland" is a lie. I have tanks, they heal themselves plenty without "healing received" slots even. The problem WOULD be that tanks can't do sufficient damage to get through overland content fast enough--to which I say: Get dps gear then for whatever (stamina/magicka) type character you're playing. If you don't have enough damage abilities, then you need to hunt skyshards or finish main questlines and get some points!! Yeah, the grind sucks. Yeah we all have 8+ characters and unfinished builds. But we deal with it, because we want a balanced game in the end.

I don't farm and grind for gear just to find out that it's useless because the meta is that "everyone can be any and every role at once because having weaknesses is too hard." I get gear so that it fits a theorybuild. And those theorybuilds SHOULD work, but the healer+dps and tank+dps meta keep wrecking those dreams. Why even create the sets then? To look like Zenimax was doing something at all?

Nobody wrote about overland. I wrote about veteran trial Cloudrest, where tanks go in portal without healer support and they tank Zmaja shadow there, who do a lot of damage.

So, ESO has content, where tanks need heal themselves a lot. Decreasing tank healing done (no matter if from skills, sets or both), because they wear heavy armour, is absurd therfore.[/quote]

Then make sure that tank wear selfish survival sets. Still doesn't work? Send in a stam or mag warden to cast living vines + blossom. Boht of these skills are "fire & forget". Boht of them can be utilised by 100% dd warden toons. They get an extra sustain bonus too.

Elendir2am

@Andre_Noir
I was never fan of Alkosh and I don’t know anybody, who would wear it in vCR as main tank.
Yolnahkriin, Powerful Assault 3(5 back bar), Earthgore and Puncturing Remedy front bar.
Funny is, that PR set was done special for tanks self-healing.

@Luckylancer
Selfish sets would not help tank there so much. Heal de-buff and oblivion damage make them useless. Portal tanks need self-healing as well as portal DDs.
I don’t search for working setup. Working setup is already done. However, some users here (probably from PVP) call for nerfing heavy armour. Nerfing healing done by heavy armour character was one of ideas.

@Syrpynt
[snip] Standard portal group is 1T+2DDs, everybody with self-healing. Tank is busy tanking Zmaja shadow and 2DDs have full hand with destroying crystals and carrying core to spears. You could send to portal fourth character, for example off-healer, in vCR+0, but you cannot do it in vCR+1,2,3 because everybody else have their tasks somewhere else.
You mix PVP, roles (tank, healer, DD) and balancing in your post in confusing way.
Roles of tanks, healers and DD in PVE are given with tasks, they should perform. There is no blurring in harder content. Fake tank isn’t somebody in light armour. It is somebody, who don’t do tanks tasks. It is decision of player what approach they take to accomplish their tasks. What is best approach is given by content prepared by developers. If they didn’t want tank do self-healing, they would not make such content and such tools (specially for tanks) for it.
I don’t know about choosing your role in PVP, so your combination there look weird to me. How do you want balancing roles in PVP, which are not present in PVP?

[edited for baiting]

Andre_Noir

Elendir2am wrote: »

I was never fan of Alkosh and I don’t know anybody, who would wear it in vCR as main tank.
Yolnahkriin, Powerful Assault 3(5 back bar), Earthgore and Puncturing Remedy front bar.
Funny is, that PR set was done special for tanks self-healing.

Not alkosh, my mistake. I don't play my tank so much and don't even remember half of sets.
But still LOL. PR is fine and useless in PVP. But you are using 2 (!) buff sets and still dare to talk that tanks survivability isn't out of control ?

If anything I prefer nerfs for some encounters and all tanks in general. So tanks will be tanks and not a self-healing rocks

Merforum

Elusiin wrote: »

Rock! Paper! Scissors!

Rocks have low damage, high resistances and health, low resources.
Rocks weakness is against papers, as rocks chip damage is not enough to kill papers infinite healing and shielding, thus papers eventually beat rocks.

Papers have low damage, low resistances and health, high resources.
Papers, you know the ones, the archer spamming snipe in the background, or the healer hiding in the middle of their group... Yeah scissors love them. At the press of a single button, papers get shredded.

Scissors have high damage, low resistances and health, low resources.
Scissors become enraged at the sight of a rock, as rocks can tank scissors burst damage... So unless scissors can get away, rocks will chip away at their health until they die. Thus, scissors take to the forums to spread the word.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you choose to build in-between, you are not efficient in any one of the three types, thus you decrease your chance to win at 2 of the categories as a cost to limiting your exploitability/weakness to 1 category.

The best strategy is to go all in on one category, and then have plans for dealing with and avoiding those who can exploit you, unless an opportunity presents itself (an ally backs you up, they're low on health, you can knock them into a lava pit, they're out of resources, etc).

I think you might be talking about the IDEAL or better concept of rock/paper/scissor here but in this game it is quite different.

ROCK has (Low damage, High HP and/or resist, Low sustain/resources)
Paper has (Med/High damage, Low HP/resist but HIGH shield/heal mitigation, High Resource)
Scissor has (OFF the Charts Damage, Med HP/resist but HIGH speed/dodge/block/BreakFree/LOS and OFF the Charts mitigation for sorc streak/NB cloak/shade, Med resources)

The idea that MITIGATION is ONLY HP/resist is the biggest misconception, other mitigation is just as good or better. I love playing the brawler type build which it has high health/resist and med damage but usually low resources (one reason proc sets were OK not because they were over powered or easy but because less resources used) and that was and should have remained viable but has been ruined.

I had played Med armor, stam high damage builds in the past and didn't like them but now that I am forced to play them again. I can say it is more stupid and easy mode than ever before. I can literally 2-3 shot almost anyone in BGs not even with executes. Any skill BB/shalk/curse + LA/MA + any weapon skill ds/flry/brlr/slash. Don't even need execute or ult any more, but throwing those in will kill even the most tanky. I have to say the HIGH Damage Meta does get the adrenaline pumping for a moment but then it is rinse/repeat and totally boring, like bomber builds I have tried, just not fun.

But threads like this have to stop, ZOS has given this playstyle EVERYTHING THEY WANT (in fact even without any changes to proc sets, the added resource/1K damage was ALREADY enough to make proc sets in PVP way underperforming, now with scaling it is just abysmal).

There are people who are used to playing these way OP stam/high damage builds and killing anyone but anytime they run into anyone who is a bit tankier and probably plays better they whine for nerfs. They just copy builds from the 1vXers on youtube who also whine about anything in PVP that they can't instantly kill. Hope the nerfs will stop.

Casul

Heavy armor + high HP + high pen = low armor + low health + high crit + high pen

fred4

Merciful17 wrote: »

So I had a few interesting BG games on my Stamblade today, for refrence, my stamblade fully buffed has 7k+ weapon damage and 17k+ penetration and slightly more than 30k stam

There were two players playing the two very high skilled classes warden and sorc. They were litteraly unkillable despite my high af damage stats and managed to deal an insane amount of damage. The sorc (No clue what kind of build it was, seemed like some weird form of a hybrid build?) ended up with 0 deaths, and the magden ended up with 3. Both of them had the least amount of deaths and the most amount of kills in the whole lobby.

Honestly this is somewhat of a trend in PvP at this point. Stack a bunch of health, resistances, super strong heals and end up dealing insane damage. Honestly the only classes I see in pvp at this point are wardens and sorcs. A few days ago I decided to try my magden again, who has very basic, easy to get sets. I'm running crafty Alfiq, necropotence and Grothdarr. That BG game, I had 52 kills, 1 death and 16 assisted kills. As soon as I get in trouble, I just go on my backbar sword and board and refresh a few abilities and I'm fully healed ready to deal an insane amount of damage again.

Same seems to be the case with sorc. I recently created a magsorc and while she's not currently CP level, I still find her so incredibly easy to play. As soon as I get in trouble I can just swap to my backbar and apply shields and streak away. Honestly I've killed multiple 4 man teams solo with her and that's something I've never been able to do on anything else than my magden.

It's a real shame because like I was saying, I created my stamblade to get quick, easy kills and get out. Honestly at this point it's literally impossible to play her since people are way too tanky. Please nerf the tankiness in PvP...

I don't even go into BGs with my nightblades. They just don't do well, there, or at least I have not figured it out. However I think this has mainly to do with playing melee and with nightblades being single-target.

As I rarely play BGs, I have been in low MMR (match making ranking) ones, and in those I can attest that for example the Brawler stamsorc I run can be quite OP. In my case the tankiness comes from running Brawler and a Master's 2H weapon, but you still need to know when to get out with Streak.

More generally speaking, though, I don't think it's tankiness that kills stamblade's offense. It's blocking and dodge rolling. There's both Miat's addon and / or that screeching sound from Incap. I immediately break free and / or just roll, but I've looked at my combat log and seen people who momentarily also block, before rolling. This can almost completely negate the nightblade's burst.

Wardens, necros, stamsorcs to a degree, all have AOE skills. Much easier to apply, can hit multiple targets and cannot be dodged. Put them in a tightly-organised group and it's very dangerous for a melee nightblade to approach them.

I read somewhere that nerfing the stealth character is a common theme in MMOs. This has certainly been the case in ESO, though I think magblade has been much harder hit by the nerf hammer over the years. The current high-damage meta actually suits both flavors of nightblades, just maybe not in BGs. In my opinion nightblades have to pay the price for Cloak and Shadow Image. Classes without mobility tools rely on being tankier. They have to. You can argue that the distinction between classes has been eroded with Race Against Time, Mist Form, Wild Hunt, Swift and so on, but I think fundamentally this is still true.

Try healing on a magblade, by the way. There are some oddball things I've noticed lately. Hitting a sorcs Ball of Lightning yields some really high PvE style heals from Swallow Soul. Generally, though, while healing from damage is nice to play, overall healing on magblade is pretty dire. Stamblade at least has Rally. Stamsorc healing - Crit Surge - isn't that great either, since crit rate has taken so many nerfs. The class is not innately as tanky as wardens / necros / DKs. Sure, they can streak, but I call damage avoidance between Streak / BoL fairly even versus Cloak + Shadow Image.

fred4

Incidentally I'm wearing Pariah on my stamsorc now with 30K+ resistances on my back bar before Pariah, but I've still been insta-killed by a nightblade. This was in IC, not BGs. The build involves Dual-wield, Caluurion, Doylemish, Vampire, Balorgh, heavy attack into procs / ultimate into Whirlwind for execute. It's a ganking spec that I assume won't work well in BGs.

fred4

Merforum wrote: »

I had played Med armor, stam high damage builds in the past and didn't like them but now that I am forced to play them again. I can say it is more stupid and easy mode than ever before. I can literally 2-3 shot almost anyone in BGs not even with executes. Any skill BB/shalk/curse + LA/MA + any weapon skill ds/flry/brlr/slash. Don't even need execute or ult any more, but throwing those in will kill even the most tanky. I have to say the HIGH Damage Meta does get the adrenaline pumping for a moment but then it is rinse/repeat and totally boring, like bomber builds I have tried, just not fun.

Hmm. I've felt that in low MMR BGs even last patch or b4 with my stamsorc build. The key ingredient in low CP against beginner players was to sort out sustain (Eternal Vigor). Then it was easy. However my MMR seems to be increasing and I run into harder-to-kill players. I'm used to playing in IC (PC EU). Total contrast to low MMR BGs. You do not get by so easily, there. Some outrageous ganks are possible with extreme builds that probably would not fly in BGs, but if you play a more balanced build, there are many decent players in IC who you won't kill easily. There are also PvEers, but I don't usually attack them anymore or at least not repeatedly .

fred4

Merforum wrote: »

I think you might be talking about the IDEAL or better concept of rock/paper/scissor here but in this game it is quite different.

ROCK has (Low damage, High HP and/or resist, Low sustain/resources)
Paper has (Med/High damage, Low HP/resist but HIGH shield/heal mitigation, High Resource)
Scissor has (OFF the Charts Damage, Med HP/resist but HIGH speed/dodge/block/BreakFree/LOS and OFF the Charts mitigation for sorc streak/NB cloak/shade, Med resources)

Oh, I'm going to have some fun with this, actually:

ROCK has medium damage, high hp / resist, low to medium sustain. These are the tanky PvPers, not true tanks with no damage. Might use heavy armor and heavy attacks, but I'm not sure you can get away with really low sustain unless you are an outright heavy attack build.

PAPER is virtually non-existent and only lives on in magsorcs, because what else can they do? With no more %resources from CP, procs scaling from spell damage and shields feeling ever more useless (on my magden at least, which was my non-sorc shielding build) you got to find different solutions.

SCISSORS I agree on.

Of course I think of rock / paper / scissors more in terms of specific encounters. A magblade with high cloak sustain is actually anti-stamblade. Because the latter often just crouch, you can get the jump on them. Sorcs are generally the worst anti-nightblade class (Streak, Lightning Form, annoying curses and executes), followed by templars. Templars and seldom-played Brawler (the skills) builds are anti-pet builds. Mag DKs can be very strong in duels, certainly one of them melted my stam DK (literally with stronger DOTs) and there was nothing I could do. And so on.

Merforum

fred4 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I had played Med armor, stam high damage builds in the past and didn't like them but now that I am forced to play them again. I can say it is more stupid and easy mode than ever before. I can literally 2-3 shot almost anyone in BGs not even with executes. Any skill BB/shalk/curse + LA/MA + any weapon skill ds/flry/brlr/slash. Don't even need execute or ult any more, but throwing those in will kill even the most tanky. I have to say the HIGH Damage Meta does get the adrenaline pumping for a moment but then it is rinse/repeat and totally boring, like bomber builds I have tried, just not fun.

Hmm. I've felt that in low MMR BGs even last patch or b4 with my stamsorc build. The key ingredient in low CP against beginner players was to sort out sustain (Eternal Vigor). Then it was easy. However my MMR seems to be increasing and I run into harder-to-kill players. I'm used to playing in IC (PC EU). Total contrast to low MMR BGs. You do not get by so easily, there. Some outrageous ganks are possible with extreme builds that probably would not fly in BGs, but if you play a more balanced build, there are many decent players in IC who you won't kill easily. There are also PvEers, but I don't usually attack them anymore or at least not repeatedly .

Yeah, I'm not sure what my MMR is but I've done over 600 matches and have noticed an increase in skilled players at least 2 times. So it is not LOW MMR for sure. Maybe not the highest though. But MMR doesn't really matter, what I am talking about is playing with Heavy armor/health brawler build then switching to full Med/stam build and the massive difference of how stupidly easy it becomes to kill players.

Obviously there is different levels of skill but the REAL difference is more related Stam/2hand being OP compared to everything else in PVP. And continuous improvements on the high damage/sneaky playstyle and reduction of tanky/high heal/shield/recovery, etc. Basically anything that 1vXers whine about has been nerfed and anything they want is being given to them for a year or more. Think about this, in PVE a highly optimized group on comms is called 'end game' but the same thing in PVP is called evil ballgroup, shouldn't ballgroups be considered ENDGAME for PVP.

Yeah ideally there should be even more build possibilities than rock/paper/scissor but right now in PVP all we have is a massive pair of oversized scissors.

Syrpynt

Elendir2am wrote: »

@Syrpynt
[snip] Standard portal group is 1T+2DDs, everybody with self-healing. Tank is busy tanking Zmaja shadow and 2DDs have full hand with destroying crystals and carrying core to spears. You could send to portal fourth character, for example off-healer, in vCR+0, but you cannot do it in vCR+1,2,3 because everybody else have their tasks somewhere else.
You mix PVP, roles (tank, healer, DD) and balancing in your post in confusing way.
Roles of tanks, healers and DD in PVE are given with tasks, they should perform. There is no blurring in harder content. Fake tank isn’t somebody in light armour. It is somebody, who don’t do tanks tasks. It is decision of player what approach they take to accomplish their tasks. What is best approach is given by content prepared by developers. If they didn’t want tank do self-healing, they would not make such content and such tools (specially for tanks) for it.
I don’t know about choosing your role in PVP, so your combination there look weird to me. How do you want balancing roles in PVP, which are not present in PVP?

I didn't say I didn't want tanks to do self-healing. I said they shouldn't have GREAT self-healing. [snip]

If vCR+1,2,3 is the biggest concern because tank self healing gets nerfed for the balance of the ENTIRE GAME, you're sadly the problem why this game continues to move into the blurred-role hybrids.

Much easier to fix broken roles, and update the difficulty of some mechanics in ONE dungeon than it is to have frustrated players everywhere.

Passives applied to characters after all buffs/debuffs before damage/heal calculations, and your character's role is slotted/selected as (under the group menu):

Tank - Your dps is -20% output. Your healing is -20% output. Your **Buffs/Resistance is +20%.
DPS - Your **Buffs/Resistance is -20%. Your **healing is -20% output. Your damage done is +20%
Healer - Your dps is -20% output. Your **Buffs/Resistance is -20% Your healing is +20% output.

** If buffs being weaker for healers/dps, and healing weaker for dps sounds crazy. Then we need more solo content versions of Trials and Group dungeons where roles don't matter, and loot is weaker.

There should be few situations where a tank should have to heal themselves without a healer, and in that case, those mechanics should be rethought because they are not for the betterment of the entire game.

This creates valleys and peaks for roles.
Choose something and be good at it.

EDIT: Added clarification to passives section.

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Merciful17

Elendir2am wrote: »

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing. Especially now, when ZOS screwed blocking?
DD need some sustainability and self-healing also. So much content, when DD go somewhere to play mechanics without support.

Don’t search reason for screwing PVE more because some other players are better at PVP than you.

If you read the title you can clearly see that this is not about PvE but PvP. For instance, battle spirit could nerf tankiness without affecting PvE whatsoever. Tanky sets that are mostly used in PvP but not in PvE could get nerfed, again will barely affect PvE.

Sorbin

Damage hasn't been this high in PvP in years. You've got gank builds running around that can literally one shot everything but the most tanky brawler specs you can imagine.

You're taking anecdotal episodes of how your NB performed and trying to propose sweeping changes to the game because of it. Frankly, it sounds like you built your damage well into the point of diminishing returns. My NB hits 6.2k wd, 18k pen w/Breach, 34k health and 30k backbar resistances. It's easily more than enough to one-burst any glass cannon specs and it can survive long enough to feasibly brawl with the tankier specs that give it trouble.

Of course, my stamden is better at brawling. That's what it's made for. And it's definitely better in BGs; NB is an inherently selfish class that suffers in BGs because one of its core mitigation skills tends to simply draw more heat onto the rest of your team. But my stamden can't kite a group of 8 thirsty reds around Cropsford for 15 minutes while picking them off one-by-one; my stamblade can. Stop asking ZOS to homogenize classes/builds/playstyles just because you hit a wall.

Merciful17

Sorbin wrote: »

Damage hasn't been this high in PvP in years. You've got gank builds running around that can literally one shot everything but the most tanky brawler specs you can imagine.

You're taking anecdotal episodes of how your NB performed and trying to propose sweeping changes to the game because of it. Frankly, it sounds like you built your damage well into the point of diminishing returns. My NB hits 6.2k wd, 18k pen w/Breach, 34k health and 30k backbar resistances. It's easily more than enough to one-burst any glass cannon specs and it can survive long enough to feasibly brawl with the tankier specs that give it trouble.

Of course, my stamden is better at brawling. That's what it's made for. And it's definitely better in BGs; NB is an inherently selfish class that suffers in BGs because one of its core mitigation skills tends to simply draw more heat onto the rest of your team. But my stamden can't kite a group of 8 thirsty reds around Cropsford for 15 minutes while picking them off one-by-one; my stamblade can. Stop asking ZOS to homogenize classes/builds/playstyles just because you hit a wall.

Any class can run around for an extremly long time and eliminate people one by one. That said, stronger classes like warden and sorc can do it better with far less skill required than other classes. NB at least requires some skill, especially getting used to using the shade. You should watch some vids from kristoferESO's channel, he uploads a lot of insane plays by other players with different classes. NBs aren't the only ones that can run people around for a long time.

Either way, it's quite clear that making really strong hitting but not so tanky builds is quite useless in PvP, since everyone who is aware of the current meta are running extremly tanky builds that somehow manage do deal a lot of damage as well. No one will focus on high damage since it is useless against tanky opponents, which is what the majority of PvP players actually play. Hence why I find it problematic that you think I'm homogenizing classes/builds/playstyles while there are completely useless builds and playstyles out there that no one will play because they're simply too bad in the current meta, and I'd like for that to change. Personally I enjoy having my NBs as assassins, being able to deal an insane amount of damage but also be vulnerable. High risk high reward. I rather not have another character that is tanky with a lot of dmg and is low risk high reward. I'm sure you can agree that having fights that last 15 minutes between two players is quite boring because they can't kill each other since they're too tanky.

Sorbin

Merciful17 wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Damage hasn't been this high in PvP in years. You've got gank builds running around that can literally one shot everything but the most tanky brawler specs you can imagine.

You're taking anecdotal episodes of how your NB performed and trying to propose sweeping changes to the game because of it. Frankly, it sounds like you built your damage well into the point of diminishing returns. My NB hits 6.2k wd, 18k pen w/Breach, 34k health and 30k backbar resistances. It's easily more than enough to one-burst any glass cannon specs and it can survive long enough to feasibly brawl with the tankier specs that give it trouble.

Of course, my stamden is better at brawling. That's what it's made for. And it's definitely better in BGs; NB is an inherently selfish class that suffers in BGs because one of its core mitigation skills tends to simply draw more heat onto the rest of your team. But my stamden can't kite a group of 8 thirsty reds around Cropsford for 15 minutes while picking them off one-by-one; my stamblade can. Stop asking ZOS to homogenize classes/builds/playstyles just because you hit a wall.

Any class can run around for an extremly long time and eliminate people one by one. That said, stronger classes like warden and sorc can do it better with far less skill required than other classes. NB at least requires some skill, especially getting used to using the shade. You should watch some vids from kristoferESO's channel, he uploads a lot of insane plays by other players with different classes. NBs aren't the only ones that can run people around for a long time.

Either way, it's quite clear that making really strong hitting but not so tanky builds is quite useless in PvP, since everyone who is aware of the current meta are running extremly tanky builds that somehow manage do deal a lot of damage as well. No one will focus on high damage since it is useless against tanky opponents, which is what the majority of PvP players actually play. Hence why I find it problematic that you think I'm homogenizing classes/builds/playstyles while there are completely useless builds and playstyles out there that no one will play because they're simply too bad in the current meta, and I'd like for that to change. Personally I enjoy having my NBs as assassins, being able to deal an insane amount of damage but also be vulnerable. High risk high reward. I rather not have another character that is tanky with a lot of dmg and is low risk high reward. I'm sure you can agree that having fights that last 15 minutes between two players is quite boring because they can't kill each other since they're too tanky.

Okay, first of all the notion that warden can play a speed/kite build as effectively as NB is absolutely meme-worthy. I've played a lot of speed-warden builds since Greymoor. It involves sacrificing way too much of the warden kit to be effective in any PvP situation against decent players. You sacrifice either too much mitigation to stand up to a strong build or too much damage to run it effectively. Having a 6 sec Major Expedition is absolutely nothing compared to BOL or Shade. It's effectively little more than a potato-masher. And obviously sorc can run a build like that with Streak/BOL. The only other class with any form of a viable speed build like that is magplar using Mist Form to help mitigate and even that's been nerfed.

And if you want high-risk high-reward, the builds are out there. They exist in this update and they are extremely effective against the majority of people in PvP. Vampire/Caalurion's gank builds can put out over 35k+ against heavy armor builds from stealth in a single GCD. There are stamsorc gank builds that are stupidly strong. There are any number of builds being run every day that sacrifice either significant sustain or mitigation to pump out enough damage to put down almost anything they run into. Just because your particular stamblade isn't doing it doesn't mean it's possible. People have always tried to build to give themselves a survival window. ESO PvP is not Call of Duty; you don't get a kill just because you have line of sight on someone. You have to facilitate the conditions that put someone into a vulnerable position. Asking ZOS to knock the board over because people aren't rolling over and dying in a single GCD is just a bad look.

shrekt4303

Add to battlespirit: Reduce stam recovery by 100% while holding block. Blocking should be used to avoid hard hits, not mitigate 3 peoples damage for 30 seconds.

Alucardo

PvPers: DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH!
Also PvPers: TANKINESS IS TOO HIGH!

Yo, we need to make our mind up ya'll

Wyrd88

shrekt4303 wrote: »

Add to battlespirit: Reduce stam recovery by 100% while holding block.

I have some news for you.
Not sure how to say it tho...

shrekt4303

Wyrd88 wrote: »

shrekt4303 wrote: »

Add to battlespirit: Reduce stam recovery by 100% while holding block.

I have some news for you.
Not sure how to say it tho...

Yeah i know....

Elendir2am

Merciful17 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing. Especially now, when ZOS screwed blocking?
DD need some sustainability and self-healing also. So much content, when DD go somewhere to play mechanics without support.

Don’t search reason for screwing PVE more because some other players are better at PVP than you.

If you read the title you can clearly see that this is not about PvE but PvP. For instance, battle spirit could nerf tankiness without affecting PvE whatsoever. Tanky sets that are mostly used in PvP but not in PvE could get nerfed, again will barely affect PvE.

I wouldn't have a problem with changes in PVP that don't affect PVE. I would leave that to players who play PVP actively.

However, several posts in the thread are of the type that heavy armor should affect this... That is, suggestions that would impact the end game of PVE content a lot.

So, if PVP community feel, that there is some problem in balancing, change should do be done smart way, without nuking whole game.

Merciful17

Elendir2am wrote: »

Merciful17 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing. Especially now, when ZOS screwed blocking?
DD need some sustainability and self-healing also. So much content, when DD go somewhere to play mechanics without support.

Don’t search reason for screwing PVE more because some other players are better at PVP than you.

If you read the title you can clearly see that this is not about PvE but PvP. For instance, battle spirit could nerf tankiness without affecting PvE whatsoever. Tanky sets that are mostly used in PvP but not in PvE could get nerfed, again will barely affect PvE.

I wouldn't have a problem with changes in PVP that don't affect PVE. I would leave that to players who play PVP actively.

However, several posts in the thread are of the type that heavy armor should affect this... That is, suggestions that would impact the end game of PVE content a lot.

So, if PVP community feel, that there is some problem in balancing, change should do be done smart way, without nuking whole game.

Agreed.

MirandaSharp

Merciful17 wrote: »

So I had a few interesting BG games on my Stamblade today, for refrence, my stamblade fully buffed has 7k+ weapon damage and 17k+ penetration and slightly more than 30k stam

There were two players playing the two very high skilled classes warden and sorc. They were litteraly unkillable despite my high af damage stats and managed to deal an insane amount of damage. The sorc (No clue what kind of build it was, seemed like some weird form of a hybrid build?) ended up with 0 deaths, and the magden ended up with 3. Both of them had the least amount of deaths and the most amount of kills in the whole lobby.

Honestly this is somewhat of a trend in PvP at this point. Stack a bunch of health, resistances, super strong heals and end up dealing insane damage. Honestly the only classes I see in pvp at this point are wardens and sorcs. A few days ago I decided to try my magden again, who has very basic, easy to get sets. I'm running crafty Alfiq, necropotence and Grothdarr. That BG game, I had 52 kills, 1 death and 16 assisted kills. As soon as I get in trouble, I just go on my backbar sword and board and refresh a few abilities and I'm fully healed ready to deal an insane amount of damage again.

Same seems to be the case with sorc. I recently created a magsorc and while she's not currently CP level, I still find her so incredibly easy to play. As soon as I get in trouble I can just swap to my backbar and apply shields and streak away. Honestly I've killed multiple 4 man teams solo with her and that's something I've never been able to do on anything else than my magden.

It's a real shame because like I was saying, I created my stamblade to get quick, easy kills and get out. Honestly at this point it's literally impossible to play her since people are way too tanky. Please nerf the tankiness in PvP...

I don't know about this... Seems you're a bit of a dark horse.. How often do you dodge roll? -Honestly! If you're griping about pen why not wear more light armor?

moo_2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

The biggest issue is that the penalties for each armor type aren't enough.

Heavy armor should have heal or damage output penalties, but should increase buffs and TAKE damage and increase healing received. To prevent people using heavy armor beyond means of tanking.

to counter resistance or heavy passives??


Resistance offered by heavy armor isn't really much and you can craft light Fortified Brass or Aetherial Ascension for example.

master_vanargand

Change Undeath of Vamp 3 to Armor Resistance 19800(30%).
If Armor Resistance exceeds 33000, ignore the exceeded value and set it to 33000.
Make 5 items of Mark of the Pariah start from 0, max 6600.

I think that the balance will be improved by making the above changes.

MrMazurski

master_vanargand wrote: »

Change Undeath of Vamp 3 to Armor Resistance 19800(30%).
If Armor Resistance exceeds 33000, ignore the exceeded value and set it to 33000.
Make 5 items of Mark of the Pariah start from 0, max 6600.

I think that the balance will be improved by making the above changes.

Yea nerf last def set what can you any possibile to survive!!!
Are you kiding?

Alucardo

A large part of tankiness is that stupid undeath passive, so I'm just throwing this out there; let my Burning Light deal significantly increased damage to undead (which I think it technically should anyway), and I'll take care of them.
Allow me, if you will, to recite their in game description.

These traveling knights call upon the powers of light and the burning sun to deal massive damage to their enemies while restoring health, magicka, and stamina to their allies.

You'd think the power of the burning sun would affect vampires dramatically. Just saying.

Syrpynt

moo_2021 wrote: »

...you can craft light Fortified Brass or Aetherial Ascension for example.

(Fortified brass in light armor) is dumb. It's a waste of damage dealing slots. If you're running 1H&Sh like this then your block costs are penalized. If using an Ice Staff block costs are penalized for light armor still, and you don't get an extra slot for additional resources like 1H&Sh. It may have been useful before Update-30/Blackwood.

Aetherial Ascension is even worse! Now your block cost is worse than if running light armor, plus the light armor block cost penalty! Next, your roll dodge cost is worse too. Your last resort to defend or evade is now more expensive but you don't have enough armor slots available to do enough damage to kill the other player fast enough.

I do assume you're talking about PvP. Because you'd MAY be able to run light armor for those sets in PvE but if anyone knew you were after update 30 they probably wouldn't take you seriously.

Aerherial Ascension is a joke of a set, with the negatives far outweighing the positives.

SkaraMinoc

Syrpynt wrote: »

Aerherial Ascension is a joke of a set, with the negatives far outweighing the positives.

AA is amazing if your build doesn't block or roll dodge much. It's very stacked with Gaze of Sithis + Pariah/Swift.