Tankiness is way too op in PvP

Merciful17

So I had a few interesting BG games on my Stamblade today, for refrence, my stamblade fully buffed has 7k+ weapon damage and 17k+ penetration and slightly more than 30k stam

There were two players playing the two very high skilled classes warden and sorc. They were litteraly unkillable despite my high af damage stats and managed to deal an insane amount of damage. The sorc (No clue what kind of build it was, seemed like some weird form of a hybrid build?) ended up with 0 deaths, and the magden ended up with 3. Both of them had the least amount of deaths and the most amount of kills in the whole lobby.

Honestly this is somewhat of a trend in PvP at this point. Stack a bunch of health, resistances, super strong heals and end up dealing insane damage. Honestly the only classes I see in pvp at this point are wardens and sorcs. A few days ago I decided to try my magden again, who has very basic, easy to get sets. I'm running crafty Alfiq, necropotence and Grothdarr. That BG game, I had 52 kills, 1 death and 16 assisted kills. As soon as I get in trouble, I just go on my backbar sword and board and refresh a few abilities and I'm fully healed ready to deal an insane amount of damage again.

Same seems to be the case with sorc. I recently created a magsorc and while she's not currently CP level, I still find her so incredibly easy to play. As soon as I get in trouble I can just swap to my backbar and apply shields and streak away. Honestly I've killed multiple 4 man teams solo with her and that's something I've never been able to do on anything else than my magden.

It's a real shame because like I was saying, I created my stamblade to get quick, easy kills and get out. Honestly at this point it's literally impossible to play her since people are way too tanky. Please nerf the tankiness in PvP...

ResidentContrarian

Doing damage is not just about stats you know...and neither is tankiness.

Merciful17

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Doing damage is not just about stats you know...and neither is tankiness.

Then what is it about? My surprise attack unbuffed has about 10k damage, with major brutality it has about 12k, and with minor beserk it and major brutality it has about 13k. These are the stats with cp so it will obviously deal less damage in no CP battlegrounds but the numbers in BG are still really high and should be able to burst through almost any damage dealer. Not to mention the fact that I run the master's bow and witch-knight's, and together they add about 600+ weapon damage. My build isn't very tanky and neither should it be. Tankiness should come at a cost, and that cost is very minimal to both warden and sorc, which makes it quite unfair when one person can deal a lot of damage while being almost unkillable. It makes pvp quite boring since no one will play anything beside warden and sorc. I sometimes come across other classes like DK and they mostly end up with like 10 deaths and two kills.

Tommy_The_Gun

Merciful17 wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Doing damage is not just about stats you know...and neither is tankiness.

Then what is it about?

As far as I can tell, PvP is mostly about out-sustaining your opponent. So you can CC them and they can not break free or they don't have resources to sprint away, heal or purge.

Sure, you can try to pull some insane ganking, but chances are (especially in BGs where people know how to pvp) they don't die in 2 - 3 combo attacks, especially after NB nerfs.

Classes you mentioned (Warden & Sorc) probably have best sustain out of all classes, so no wonder people pick them for BGs.

Andre_Noir

Meh it's the same design fail as in other games. I remember first seasons in League of legends that were "bruiser meta" = tanks with damage.
It's always a fail from the beginning if you let have high base damage number and any scaling from defensive stats.
The next usual gamedesign fail it's "melee should deal more damage and they are more fun" that bring next typical view: every melee has a gapcloser and almost every range tactic/character/weapon is obsolete because of that.
The only way to solve that at least partly - it's a % (around 50%) penetration

Sagetim

I agree with you. They can be very tankiy and still hit like a truck. You can max out a DPS toon and not come close to taking someone down like this and all they have to do is throw a grape at you to kill you. This game is pushing everyone to play and wear the same gear in PVP and for the most part... it's all stamina.

Veg

Tanking damager over building for damage works when you have abilities like Shalk, blast bones, curse and streak. You don't even need high damage stats to hit people with combos that do 5-10k damage from 3 separate attacks totaling around 20k damage.

Stam warden is the biggest offender here because they have the highest sustain, defense, ult gen and access to burst damage. Mag sorc will almost always have the most kills just because of their ranged execute that stays on target for like 4 seconds.

Night blade and Mag DK tend to get left behind after both of those classes lost a lot of their core mechanics. Things like wings reflecting projectiles and that NB ult that used to cost 50 ult. All gone. Doesn't really matter how much you spec into damage when a stam warden can match or beat your burst combo just because they have better abilities.

Amottica

Merciful17 wrote: »

It's a real shame because like I was saying, I created my stamblade to get quick, easy kills and get out.

And someone else created their character for lengthy survival against glass cannon builds.

From what I understand, from a noob perspective, the soft cap for resistance is ~33k (NPCs have far less). A tank build for PvP may go way above that though I am not sure how high they can go. If they do not stack above the soft cap then it means after your penetration you are still dealing with 16k resistance. If they stack higher then they are pretty much negating your penetration and keeping their resistance.

This does not include other skills or buffs they may employ to survive.

I am sure I got some details off a little, but from what I have been told by guildies this seems to be the gist of things based on what was said in the OP.

Syrpynt

The biggest issue is that the penalties for each armor type aren't enough.

Heavy armor should have heal or damage output penalties, but should increase buffs and TAKE damage and increase healing received. To prevent people using heavy armor beyond means of tanking.

Magicka pools shouldn't dictate magic strength. Stamina pools shouldn't dictate physical strength. Only healing.

Choose between GREAT heals AND GREAT damage. Can't have both, only mediocre if you split between the two.

[snip]

Zenimax is going the right direction with recent changes, but it's not enough tbh.

[Edited for Baiting]

Amottica

Syrpynt wrote: »

The biggest issue is that the penalties for each armor type aren't enough.

Heavy armor should have heal or damage output penalties, but should increase buffs and TAKE damage and increase healing received. To prevent people using heavy armor beyond means of tanking.

Magicka pools shouldn't dictate magic strength. Stamina pools shouldn't dictate physical strength. Only healing.

Choose between GREAT heals AND GREAT damage. Can't have both, only mediocre if you split between the two.

[snip]

Zenimax is going the right direction with recent changes, but it's not enough tbh.

[Edited for Baiting]

That is not necessary by any means. I have seen games handle healing and damage using the same stats and they did it just fine.

Further, Zenimax has created content that requires damage dealers to be able to heal. Not to mention there are heals that scale off of damage done which would completely negate the scaling suggested above.

Alucardo

Amottica wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

The biggest issue is that the penalties for each armor type aren't enough.

Heavy armor should have heal or damage output penalties, but should increase buffs and TAKE damage and increase healing received. To prevent people using heavy armor beyond means of tanking.

Magicka pools shouldn't dictate magic strength. Stamina pools shouldn't dictate physical strength. Only healing.

Choose between GREAT heals AND GREAT damage. Can't have both, only mediocre if you split between the two.

[snip]

Zenimax is going the right direction with recent changes, but it's not enough tbh.

[Edited for Baiting]

That is not necessary by any means. I have seen games handle healing and damage using the same stats and they did it just fine.

Yes, but they were designed this way. ESO was not. Syrpynt's suggestion is the quickest and most reliable way to create a gap between damage and tanking if that's what people truly want. It's also something I mentioned years ago.

techyeshic

Really has nothing to do with penalty for armor types. What it is, is the base stats give too much offensive and healing scaling. This should be shifted off the stat pools and damage sets than increased so that you can reach current normal normal numbers if your run offensive sets and build, but you won't just naturally have 5k weapon or spell damage without equipping an offensive set.

FWIW; moving that power to more offensive stat sets would have addressed some issues with Procs without having to add scaling. Imagine; if you couldn't heal worth a damned because you invested in proc damage sets. Kind of works now ok but it's uneven Magicka and stam and classes that synergize better with raw weapon and spell damage

Elendir2am

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing. Especially now, when ZOS screwed blocking?
DD need some sustainability and self-healing also. So much content, when DD go somewhere to play mechanics without support.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Joy_Division

Merciful17 wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Doing damage is not just about stats you know...and neither is tankiness.

Then what is it about? My surprise attack unbuffed has about 10k damage, with major brutality it has about 12k, and with minor beserk it and major brutality it has about 13k. These are the stats with cp so it will obviously deal less damage in no CP battlegrounds but the numbers in BG are still really high and should be able to burst through almost any damage dealer. Not to mention the fact that I run the master's bow and witch-knight's, and together they add about 600+ weapon damage. My build isn't very tanky and neither should it be. Tankiness should come at a cost, and that cost is very minimal to both warden and sorc, which makes it quite unfair when one person can deal a lot of damage while being almost unkillable. It makes pvp quite boring since no one will play anything beside warden and sorc. I sometimes come across other classes like DK and they mostly end up with like 10 deaths and two kills.

More than stats and requests for nerfs. From day 1, good players have always seemed incredibly "tanky" regardless of what class they play, not because things need to get nerfed but because they are good. Three and zero deaths are and have been perfectly normal amount of death for experienced players ever since BGs were introduced. If someone who knows what they are doing is attacked by a high weapon damage build, they will immediately react, take the threat seriously, and engage in combat in a way that you won;t be able to connect consistently through those attacks by either dodge roll, LOS, CCing, etc., such that they only way they're going to die is via a stun + execute. These player's builds aren't necessarily tanky on their own according to the game's stats, rather they seem that way because they foil their opponent's ability to hit them when they're vulnerable, which lets their HoTs bring the health bar up.

ealdwin

Alucardo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

The biggest issue is that the penalties for each armor type aren't enough.

Heavy armor should have heal or damage output penalties, but should increase buffs and TAKE damage and increase healing received. To prevent people using heavy armor beyond means of tanking.

Magicka pools shouldn't dictate magic strength. Stamina pools shouldn't dictate physical strength. Only healing.

Choose between GREAT heals AND GREAT damage. Can't have both, only mediocre if you split between the two.

[snip]

Zenimax is going the right direction with recent changes, but it's not enough tbh.

[Edited for Baiting]

That is not necessary by any means. I have seen games handle healing and damage using the same stats and they did it just fine.

Yes, but they were designed this way. ESO was not. Syrpynt's suggestion is the quickest and most reliable way to create a gap between damage and tanking if that's what people truly want. It's also something I mentioned years ago.

Except, ESO was designed in that way, since heals and damage both share similar stats for scaling and have for quite some time.

And I don't think it would be as simple as some would think. As it stands right now, specs that adhere to choices made for them based on their allocation of more Attribute points into Magicka have an easier time continuing to stack Max Magicka, due to the passives provided by those choices. And specs that adhere to choices made for them based on their allocation of more Attribute points into Stamina have an easier time stacking Weapon Damage, due to the passives provided by those choices. Which means that separating either stat (resource or damage) from the damage calculations or healing calculations would cause imbalance between specs based on the allocation of Attribute Points.

The suggestion I heard a long time ago, and still agree with, is that in order to reduce any potential oppressive power of healing in PVP (without completely stripping away the ability of players to reactively defend themselves in combat scenarios), is to slightly decrease the powers of heals across the board (5-10%) and then increase the strength of things that boost healing specifically, ie. Major/Minor Mending, Powered weapon trait, and the Ritual Mundus Stone.

[edited for simplicity’s sake]

Jameson18

Just need to swap the increase damage taken from spells and magic for a -2% damage done per piece and call it a day. Then everyone's happy.

Andre_Noir

Elendir2am wrote: »

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing.

By using a healing and shielding sets instead of usual Alkosh ?l

Psiion

Greetings,

After editing and removing a few posts we would like to remind everyone that Baiting is against the Community Rules and generally non-constructive. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind.

Elusiin

Rock! Paper! Scissors!

Rocks have low damage, high resistances and health, low resources.
Rocks weakness is against papers, as rocks chip damage is not enough to kill papers infinite healing and shielding, thus papers eventually beat rocks.

Papers have low damage, low resistances and health, high resources.
Papers, you know the ones, the archer spamming snipe in the background, or the healer hiding in the middle of their group... Yeah scissors love them. At the press of a single button, papers get shredded.

Scissors have high damage, low resistances and health, low resources.
Scissors become enraged at the sight of a rock, as rocks can tank scissors burst damage... So unless scissors can get away, rocks will chip away at their health until they die. Thus, scissors take to the forums to spread the word.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you choose to build in-between, you are not efficient in any one of the three types, thus you decrease your chance to win at 2 of the categories as a cost to limiting your exploitability/weakness to 1 category.

The best strategy is to go all in on one category, and then have plans for dealing with and avoiding those who can exploit you, unless an opportunity presents itself (an ally backs you up, they're low on health, you can knock them into a lava pit, they're out of resources, etc).

Mariusghost84

Elusiin wrote: »

Rock! Paper! Scissors!

Rocks have low damage, high resistances and health, low resources.
Rocks weakness is against papers, as rocks chip damage is not enough to kill papers infinite healing and shielding, thus papers eventually beat rocks.

Papers have low damage, low resistances and health, high resources.
Papers, you know the ones, the archer spamming snipe in the background, or the healer hiding in the middle of their group... Yeah scissors love them. At the press of a single button, papers get shredded.

Scissors have high damage, low resistances and health, low resources.
Scissors become enraged at the sight of a rock, as rocks can tank scissors burst damage... So unless scissors can get away, rocks will chip away at their health until they die. Thus, scissors take to the forums to spread the word.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you choose to build in-between, you are not efficient in any one of the three types, thus you decrease your chance to win at 2 of the categories as a cost to limiting your exploitability/weakness to 1 category.

The best strategy is to go all in on one category, and then have plans for dealing with and avoiding those who can exploit you, unless an opportunity presents itself (an ally backs you up, they're low on health, you can knock them into a lava pit, they're out of resources, etc).

That was some funny and true stuff man! Im def scissors and yes i do get enraged at the sight of a rock! :P

Pepegrillos

If you don't build for tankiness this patch, the odds are that you are going to get one shotted more often than not. A known one shot combo involves an unblockable streak, a medium attack and all of what follows from it: ashen's grip + deadlands + vate 2h + crystal weapon. And that's not the only one.

Vevvev

Elusiin wrote: »

Rock! Paper! Scissors!

Rocks have low damage, high resistances and health, low resources.
Rocks weakness is against papers, as rocks chip damage is not enough to kill papers infinite healing and shielding, thus papers eventually beat rocks.

Papers have low damage, low resistances and health, high resources.
Papers, you know the ones, the archer spamming snipe in the background, or the healer hiding in the middle of their group... Yeah scissors love them. At the press of a single button, papers get shredded.

Scissors have high damage, low resistances and health, low resources.
Scissors become enraged at the sight of a rock, as rocks can tank scissors burst damage... So unless scissors can get away, rocks will chip away at their health until they die. Thus, scissors take to the forums to spread the word.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you choose to build in-between, you are not efficient in any one of the three types, thus you decrease your chance to win at 2 of the categories as a cost to limiting your exploitability/weakness to 1 category.

The best strategy is to go all in on one category, and then have plans for dealing with and avoiding those who can exploit you, unless an opportunity presents itself (an ally backs you up, they're low on health, you can knock them into a lava pit, they're out of resources, etc).

*Blinks*

Seems I'm a Scissors then, but I do have access to the ice pike handle allowing me to chip at rocks at least. Fossilize can force a tank to drop block allowing the mighty rock to be shattered by a group of scissors.

Elendir2am

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

Tanks need do healing in veteran trials a lot. How should we survive in vCR in portal (Zmaja) with reduced healing.

By using a healing and shielding sets instead of usual Alkosh ?l

And do you know that I reacted to idea "decrease healing done for heavy armour builds". This idea would decrease all healing done by tank including healing done with sets.

MirandaSharp

I thought everyone played with the same gear and by the same rules... Maybe someone was better at using those same rules and that same gear than you? -Isn't that what PvP is all about?

Syrpynt

Elendir2am wrote: »

And do you know that I reacted to idea "decrease healing done for heavy armour builds". This idea would decrease all healing done by tank including healing done with sets.

Yes, the tank sets are "increased healing received", but the penalty should be "decreased healing done" so you can't get a double bonus for healing yourself. That's the role of a healer.

This whole "tanks need to heal themselves overland" is a lie. I have tanks, they heal themselves plenty without "healing received" slots even. The problem WOULD be that tanks can't do sufficient damage to get through overland content fast enough--to which I say: Get dps gear then for whatever (stamina/magicka) type character you're playing. If you don't have enough damage abilities, then you need to hunt skyshards or finish main questlines and get some points!! Yeah, the grind sucks. Yeah we all have 8+ characters and unfinished builds. But we deal with it, because we want a balanced game in the end.

I don't farm and grind for gear just to find out that it's useless because the meta is that "everyone can be any and every role at once because having weaknesses is too hard." I get gear so that it fits a theorybuild. And those theorybuilds SHOULD work, but the healer+dps and tank+dps meta keep wrecking those dreams. Why even create the sets then? To look like Zenimax was doing something at all?

WeylandLabs

Change - Defile Cough Cough ! 😂

Luckylancer

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Meh it's the same design fail as in other games. I remember first seasons in League of legends that were "bruiser meta" = tanks with damage.
It's always a fail from the beginning if you let have high base damage number and any scaling from defensive stats.
The next usual gamedesign fail it's "melee should deal more damage and they are more fun" that bring next typical view: every melee has a gapcloser and almost every range tactic/character/weapon is obsolete because of that.
The only way to solve that at least partly - it's a % (around 50%) penetration

In heroes of the storm (another MOBA) half of hard tanks can kill a damage dealer when left alone. Also there are bruisers that can tank moderately and deal good damage. But there is no tank meta there.

What ESO fails is she don't have checks. Sets like knight-slayer and shield breaker should hard cap metas.

Non oblivion damage based on enemy max health will check max health builds. Oblivion max hp damage will check general tankiness builds. Oblivion damage based on offensive stats will check resistance stack meta (armor, buffs, blocks). There may be speacial versions againts blocking, shielding etc. An ultimate that deal damage based on distance transversed can stop speed builds.

ESO meta zig zags like headless chicken.

Elendir2am

Syrpynt wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

And do you know that I reacted to idea "decrease healing done for heavy armour builds". This idea would decrease all healing done by tank including healing done with sets.

Yes, the tank sets are "increased healing received", but the penalty should be "decreased healing done" so you can't get a double bonus for healing yourself. That's the role of a healer.

This whole "tanks need to heal themselves overland" is a lie. I have tanks, they heal themselves plenty without "healing received" slots even. The problem WOULD be that tanks can't do sufficient damage to get through overland content fast enough--to which I say: Get dps gear then for whatever (stamina/magicka) type character you're playing. If you don't have enough damage abilities, then you need to hunt skyshards or finish main questlines and get some points!! Yeah, the grind sucks. Yeah we all have 8+ characters and unfinished builds. But we deal with it, because we want a balanced game in the end.

I don't farm and grind for gear just to find out that it's useless because the meta is that "everyone can be any and every role at once because having weaknesses is too hard." I get gear so that it fits a theorybuild. And those theorybuilds SHOULD work, but the healer+dps and tank+dps meta keep wrecking those dreams. Why even create the sets then? To look like Zenimax was doing something at all?

Nobody wrote about overland. I wrote about veteran trial Cloudrest, where tanks go in portal without healer support and they tank Zmaja shadow there, who do a lot of damage.

So, ESO has content, where tanks need heal themselves a lot. Decreasing tank healing done (no matter if from skills, sets or both), because they wear heavy armour, is absurd therfore.

Andre_Noir

Elendir2am wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

And do you know that I reacted to idea "decrease healing done for heavy armour builds". This idea would decrease all healing done by tank including healing done with sets.

Yes, the tank sets are "increased healing received", but the penalty should be "decreased healing done" so you can't get a double bonus for healing yourself. That's the role of a healer.

This whole "tanks need to heal themselves overland" is a lie. I have tanks, they heal themselves plenty without "healing received" slots even. The problem WOULD be that tanks can't do sufficient damage to get through overland content fast enough--to which I say: Get dps gear then for whatever (stamina/magicka) type character you're playing. If you don't have enough damage abilities, then you need to hunt skyshards or finish main questlines and get some points!! Yeah, the grind sucks. Yeah we all have 8+ characters and unfinished builds. But we deal with it, because we want a balanced game in the end.

I don't farm and grind for gear just to find out that it's useless because the meta is that "everyone can be any and every role at once because having weaknesses is too hard." I get gear so that it fits a theorybuild. And those theorybuilds SHOULD work, but the healer+dps and tank+dps meta keep wrecking those dreams. Why even create the sets then? To look like Zenimax was doing something at all?

Nobody wrote about overland. I wrote about veteran trial Cloudrest, where tanks go in portal without healer support and they tank Zmaja shadow there, who do a lot of damage.

So, ESO has content, where tanks need heal themselves a lot. Decreasing tank healing done (no matter if from skills, sets or both), because they wear heavy armour, is absurd therfore.

Srly post your portal build here already

DontWorryAboutit

Warden=carry class. It was designed for Battle grounds.

Draevik

Merciful17 wrote: »

So I had a few interesting BG games on my Stamblade today, for refrence, my stamblade fully buffed has 7k+ weapon damage and 17k+ penetration and slightly more than 30k stam

There were two players playing the two very high skilled classes warden and sorc. They were litteraly unkillable despite my high af damage stats and managed to deal an insane amount of damage. The sorc (No clue what kind of build it was, seemed like some weird form of a hybrid build?) ended up with 0 deaths, and the magden ended up with 3. Both of them had the least amount of deaths and the most amount of kills in the whole lobby.

Honestly this is somewhat of a trend in PvP at this point. Stack a bunch of health, resistances, super strong heals and end up dealing insane damage. Honestly the only classes I see in pvp at this point are wardens and sorcs. A few days ago I decided to try my magden again, who has very basic, easy to get sets. I'm running crafty Alfiq, necropotence and Grothdarr. That BG game, I had 52 kills, 1 death and 16 assisted kills. As soon as I get in trouble, I just go on my backbar sword and board and refresh a few abilities and I'm fully healed ready to deal an insane amount of damage again.

Same seems to be the case with sorc. I recently created a magsorc and while she's not currently CP level, I still find her so incredibly easy to play. As soon as I get in trouble I can just swap to my backbar and apply shields and streak away. Honestly I've killed multiple 4 man teams solo with her and that's something I've never been able to do on anything else than my magden.

It's a real shame because like I was saying, I created my stamblade to get quick, easy kills and get out. Honestly at this point it's literally impossible to play her since people are way too tanky. Please nerf the tankiness in PvP...

The funny thing is, I had to build my stamsorc for a brawler type because that is the playstyle I like. I don't run away from a fight but I do count on my opponent wasting their efforts and pen on my 41k mit and 30k HP. They are usually built with way less defense so I hit them just as hard if not harder than they hit me because I invested so heavily into defense in certain ways and maintained damage by set choice, skills on my bar, and enchants.

I also don't use streak like a noob but I think it is so cheesy (broken). But at the same time, all of my defensive efforts can be circumvented in quite a few ways.

There are ways to increase your survivability and keep decent damage. It depends how you want to play. The NB has the best defense in the game, with just cloak and shade. I know I used it extensively on mine.