DK Needed Buffs

ThePianist

DKs don’t need a buff. They’re still formidable opponents because of that leap. It’s literally a press to win button.

I would say that Zos needs to look at data from 10,000 bgs matches from everybody, to measure performance. Don’t just balance a class and make a decision based on “WeLl ThAt ClAsS hAs tHiS sO wE sHouLd hAvE It aLsO”. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. What’s next, you guys are going to cry about giving DK’s the ability the fly across the map because the class doesn’t have a reposition skill like Shadow Image? Please.

Magdk and Stamdk will always be performers, kill/death ratio is good. If you have more deaths than kills on a DK, this patch...it’s not that class, it’s you. (Excluding DK pve tanks that just want to get the premium undaunted rewards).

NyassaV

I'm not sure if anything recent has changed but about a year ago I decided to play mDK with very little passives or knowledge of the class. My build was very simple, destro and resto. Keep in mind I normally play Magblade so I'm used to sucking hard, but I hopped on DK and did some disgusting damage.

WaltherCarraway

“ They’re still formidable opponents because of that leap.”

“ “WeLl ThAt ClAsS hAs tHiS sO wE sHouLd hAvE It aLsO”. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. What’s next, you guys are going to cry about giving DK’s the ability the fly across the map because the class doesn’t have a reposition skill like Shadow Image? ”

Some folks want DK remain as a punchbag class so dang hard.

Inferno used to be aoe, ash cloud had a miss chance (evasion),wings used to reflect meteor then most of projectiles, chains n leap had vertical targeting, talons had no immobilize cooldown n the range was 8m, dynamic ultgen was a thing, corrosive armor used to DoT, magma armor had longer duration, banner was cheaper, powerlash had no cooldown n pretty much undodgeable, inhale was worth slotting, venomous claw and noxious breath had redflames rather than baby poop green, molten armaments had an execute effect // additional flame damage to LA/HA, obsidian shield ally shield strength scaled on DK hp, that shield used to tank the whole group, helping hand was %stamina instead of static value, battle roar was % not static value, warden did not exist, necro did not exist. Dead skills, dead passives, dead class next patch.

LOL

irstarkey57

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

KhajiitLivesMatter

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

the1andonlyskwex

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

On one hand, you're right that some people in this thread are misrepresenting Deep Breath as weaker than it actually is. On the other hand, you're misrepresenting it as much stronger than it actually is.

- The heal is only for 100% of the damage done by the small initial hit (and in PvP is halved by Battle Spirit).
- Yes, the damage of the two hits combined is comparable to the damage from Deep Fissure or Stalking Blastbones, but the split also makes it significantly less effective in PvP where burst is king.
- Yes, the delay is shorter than those other skills, but the range is also much shorter, and you have to be in range for the first hit in order for the second to even occur. The additional requirement to stay in melee range more than makes up for the reduced delay.
- The interrupt isn't all that useful in PvP because its range is short and people don't usually use interruptible abilities in PvP anyway (melee casts and channels aren't interruptible).
- The stun and off balance are just part of the interrupt, and not separate effects.

KhajiitLivesMatter

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

On one hand, you're right that some people in this thread are misrepresenting Deep Breath as weaker than it actually is. On the other hand, you're misrepresenting it as much stronger than it actually is.

- The heal is only for 100% of the damage done by the small initial hit (and in PvP is halved by Battle Spirit).
- Yes, the damage of the two hits combined is comparable to the damage from Deep Fissure or Stalking Blastbones, but the split also makes it significantly less effective in PvP where burst is king.
- Yes, the delay is shorter than those other skills, but the range is also much shorter, and you have to be in range for the first hit in order for the second to even occur. The additional requirement to stay in melee range more than makes up for the reduced delay.
- The interrupt isn't all that useful in PvP because its range is short and people don't usually use interruptible abilities in PvP anyway (melee casts and channels aren't interruptible).
- The stun and off balance are just part of the interrupt, and not separate effects.

yea i agree with most the things - but in the end maybe reduce the cost a bit to 3k and leave the rest than it should be fine

the1andonlyskwex

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

On one hand, you're right that some people in this thread are misrepresenting Deep Breath as weaker than it actually is. On the other hand, you're misrepresenting it as much stronger than it actually is.

- The heal is only for 100% of the damage done by the small initial hit (and in PvP is halved by Battle Spirit).
- Yes, the damage of the two hits combined is comparable to the damage from Deep Fissure or Stalking Blastbones, but the split also makes it significantly less effective in PvP where burst is king.
- Yes, the delay is shorter than those other skills, but the range is also much shorter, and you have to be in range for the first hit in order for the second to even occur. The additional requirement to stay in melee range more than makes up for the reduced delay.
- The interrupt isn't all that useful in PvP because its range is short and people don't usually use interruptible abilities in PvP anyway (melee casts and channels aren't interruptible).
- The stun and off balance are just part of the interrupt, and not separate effects.

yea i agree with most the things - but in the end maybe reduce the cost a bit to 3k and leave the rest than it should be fine

The challenge is that any change to make it good in PvP is likely to either be a huge buff to a skill that's already fine in PvE or a huge nerf to PvE tanks (e.g. by removing the heal or the interrupt).

KhajiitLivesMatter

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

On one hand, you're right that some people in this thread are misrepresenting Deep Breath as weaker than it actually is. On the other hand, you're misrepresenting it as much stronger than it actually is.

- The heal is only for 100% of the damage done by the small initial hit (and in PvP is halved by Battle Spirit).
- Yes, the damage of the two hits combined is comparable to the damage from Deep Fissure or Stalking Blastbones, but the split also makes it significantly less effective in PvP where burst is king.
- Yes, the delay is shorter than those other skills, but the range is also much shorter, and you have to be in range for the first hit in order for the second to even occur. The additional requirement to stay in melee range more than makes up for the reduced delay.
- The interrupt isn't all that useful in PvP because its range is short and people don't usually use interruptible abilities in PvP anyway (melee casts and channels aren't interruptible).
- The stun and off balance are just part of the interrupt, and not separate effects.

yea i agree with most the things - but in the end maybe reduce the cost a bit to 3k and leave the rest than it should be fine

The challenge is that any change to make it good in PvP is likely to either be a huge buff to a skill that's already fine in PvE or a huge nerf to PvE tanks (e.g. by removing the heal or the interrupt).

i think removing the heal wouldnt be to bad for tanks its anyway not to much
and reducing the cost wont make it to op just inline with necro or warden

Veg

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

This abilities problems and their solutions have been posted many times in these forums. The people that jump on stuff like this to also ask for stamina inhale, molten whip buffs, changes in passives, etc, etc... are what keeps us from getting any momentum behind any single change we want. Like this guy

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

For Deep Breath it's just obvious how under powered it is. There shouldn't be any talk of other abilities when we could actually get deep breath changed.

The problems

• Requires a target to activate the ability. You can cast it with no target but it wont do anything. No target means no delayed damage and wasted 4k magic.
• Initial damage and heal are far too weak for pvp. Both values get cut in half instead of just one. This means your heal is hit by the battle spirit debuff twice.
• The secondary damage to too weak to combo into your regular attacks.
• The ability costs 4k magic when the only thing it accomplishes is a possible stun on channeling targets.

The solutions

• No longer require a target to activate the ability
• Remove the initial damage and heal completely
• Increase the secondary damage. Put it in between fissure and blast bones.
• Reduce the abilities cost down to the 3000 range

Vevvev

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

AinSoph

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

Frag Shield does literally the same things but with utility and I would never waste a gcd on obsidian that hits 2 targets with a CHANCE of a single combustion proc. If you're a healer, you should be specced for above-average mag recovery anyways.

Vevvev

AinSoph wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

Frag Shield does literally the same things but with utility and I would never waste a gcd on obsidian that hits 2 targets with a CHANCE of a single combustion proc. If you're a healer, you should be specced for above-average mag recovery anyways.

Reason I only use it when the situation demands a long range burst heal for people outside Combat Prayer range. It's DK healer's only way to really reach out and heal someone as they can't really do it with anything else. Psijic healing ability is an option, but it's not widely used for a reason.

AinSoph

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

Frag Shield does literally the same things but with utility and I would never waste a gcd on obsidian that hits 2 targets with a CHANCE of a single combustion proc. If you're a healer, you should be specced for above-average mag recovery anyways.

Reason I only use it when the situation demands a long range burst heal for people outside Combat Prayer range. It's DK healer's only way to really reach out and heal someone as they can't really do it with anything else. Psijic healing ability is an option, but it's not widely used for a reason.

How far must you be from your dps that you need a burst heal from more than 28m away

Vevvev

AinSoph wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

Frag Shield does literally the same things but with utility and I would never waste a gcd on obsidian that hits 2 targets with a CHANCE of a single combustion proc. If you're a healer, you should be specced for above-average mag recovery anyways.

Reason I only use it when the situation demands a long range burst heal for people outside Combat Prayer range. It's DK healer's only way to really reach out and heal someone as they can't really do it with anything else. Psijic healing ability is an option, but it's not widely used for a reason.

How far must you be from your dps that you need a burst heal from more than 28m away

It's rare but I've had it happen in things like Fang Lair and Unhallowed Grave. In PVP it's a common occurrence, but the threat of an enemy dodge rolling and negating your obsidian shard is definitely an issue. Why in PVP I don't really focus on group support but killing the enemy, and the only real cross healing I'm doing is with Radiating Regeneration.

HankTwo

Veg wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

This abilities problems and their solutions have been posted many times in these forums. The people that jump on stuff like this to also ask for stamina inhale, molten whip buffs, changes in passives, etc, etc... are what keeps us from getting any momentum behind any single change we want. Like this guy

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

Initial damage and heal are far too weak for pvp. Both values get cut in half instead of just one. This means your heal is hit by the battle spirit debuff twice.

This is false. I dont know why people keep spreading this misinformation without testing stuff themselves. Skills that heal for a percentage of the damage done are not cut in half by battlespirit again, this was changed ages ago. If you hit multiple targets the heal can actually be quite decent for a skill that also has utility and extra damage.

Veg wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

so u want the same dmg as the other 2 skills to create the 3. most op class ?
if it would be just the dmg it would be MAYBE fine
but this skill heals u for 100% of dmg done
is the ONLY aoe interupt
has a shorter time (2,5sec instead of 3 sec )
is a aoe STUN
and a aoe offbalance

dk is already damn strong if u buff it now it will get nerfed to ground later (zos logic)

edit: and if u consider the instant dmg than u have the SAME dmg as deep fishere and all other benefits from above

This abilities problems and their solutions have been posted many times in these forums. The people that jump on stuff like this to also ask for stamina inhale, molten whip buffs, changes in passives, etc, etc... are what keeps us from getting any momentum behind any single change we want. Like this guy

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

This is great keep it up. Next on the list, wardens ice fortress, Templars channeled focus, and our miserable spike armor.

Then maybe we can do the ridiculous game you have to play for molten whip vs magsorc crit frags...list goes on. Makes it so much easier for people to get with those pictures. No denying cold hard facts.

The secondary damage to too weak to combo into your regular attacks.

The second explosion of deep breath has very similar scaling like crystal weapons and stamsorcs use that just fine to combo. I have used deep breath during no proc and you can definitely use it quite successfully to amp up your aoe burst by stacking it with leap. That being said, not getting the second explosion when you dont have an initial target was 100% the biggest gripe I had with this skill.

Skill cost/sustain is a general issue with mag DK and should be improved slightly.

ArcVelarian

HankTwo wrote: »

Skill cost/sustain is a general issue with mag DK and should be improved slightly.

It's an issue with DKs in general. Both Stam and Magicka suffer from the lack of Sustain, but it's more pronounced on Mag DKs because skill costs are so high. Whether it's changing Combustion to give some Magicka and Stamina back per Class DoT tick, or increasing DK's Ultimate Generation to increase Sustain through Battle Roar, or some other solution... Something has to give. I would say even before they think about buffing DK DPS they should consider fixing DK's Sustain first.

LightYagami

LightYagami wrote: »

I copied from another thread...

DK has been usually voted as one of the worst class in similar polls like those I quoted below.

There are absolutely something wrong with the class if different polling all show one particular class is one of the worst. Developers have to take a look at the votes and their own class performance database.

I'm not emphasizing my own opinion or opinions from a few people performing conditionally extremely good or extremely bad, but ZOS should look at the collective opinions of the player population, and their database.

Hi Gina, could you please communicate with the teams? @ZOS_GinaBruno

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/576328/what-is-the-most-difficult-annoying-class-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-blackwood-meta-edition/p1

Here's DK again.. the lowest votes of "the most difficult annoying class to fight in Cyrodiil Blackwood meta edition"

ZOS should do something.
Please take a look at the votes from the community. it's not only opinion from one or two particular players, it's not only one or two polling.
This class keeps being voted as one of the weakest in different aspects.

If that's still not enough, please check class statistics from your database, especially PvP. I'm not talking about my personal feeling or particular exceptional cases, but community polling and your data.

Edit: typo: "not"

YandereGirlfriend

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

I don't think that skills are ever balanced with the class passives in mind.

If we decide to do this then we have to start roping in all of the amazing Animal Companions secondary effects, such as providing ult-gen, healing, and free damage scaling all from the same skill. Rather than balancing Inhale it instead raises difficult questions about the power of the Warden kit.

Rather, let passives be balanced discretely and do the same for abilities. Attempting to balance both at the same time introduces too much complexity and moving parts.

Vevvev

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

I don't think that skills are ever balanced with the class passives in mind.

If we decide to do this then we have to start roping in all of the amazing Animal Companions secondary effects, such as providing ult-gen, healing, and free damage scaling all from the same skill. Rather than balancing Inhale it instead raises difficult questions about the power of the Warden kit.

Rather, let passives be balanced discretely and do the same for abilities. Attempting to balance both at the same time introduces too much complexity and moving parts.

I disagree as I have always held that the passives in ESO are where the true power in a build is located. It's the invisible force that can push something mundane into the best in slot territory and completely change how a class plays. Abilities should be balanced around the passives that effect them or you get horrible combinations that end up either OP as heck, or not even worth the players time and effort.

YandereGirlfriend

Vevvev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

The problem is that it's ONLY a burst heal, the resto staff and nearly every other class has a much better burst heal which does other things besides heal. Also do you really need a combustion proc as a healer?

It also procs the Earthen Heart passives with the ability restoring stamina for more dodge rolls in emergencies, gives your group minor brutality to help the stam DPS, and generates 3 ultimate upon cast with a 6 second cooldown on that ult gen.

And when playing a healer any and all magicka return helps keep your group alive. Why my magDK healer throws down a Flame Wall of Elements or Engulfing Flames into a large group of enemies. Adds to the DPS of the dungeon/trial group and has a chance to restore much needed magicka for your healing and support spells.

I don't think that skills are ever balanced with the class passives in mind.

If we decide to do this then we have to start roping in all of the amazing Animal Companions secondary effects, such as providing ult-gen, healing, and free damage scaling all from the same skill. Rather than balancing Inhale it instead raises difficult questions about the power of the Warden kit.

Rather, let passives be balanced discretely and do the same for abilities. Attempting to balance both at the same time introduces too much complexity and moving parts.

I disagree as I have always held that the passives in ESO are where the true power in a build is located. It's the invisible force that can push something mundane into the best in slot territory and completely change how a class plays. Abilities should be balanced around the passives that effect them or you get horrible combinations that end up either OP as heck, or not even worth the players time and effort.

That may be but I don't believe that they are designed in actual ESO with the passives in mind.

That's why it's likely outside of the scope of the question to bring in passives and other third party considerations. If they're not considered during the actual creation ofin-game abilities then they shouldn't be considered for the purposes of new balancing hypotheticals. Otherwise, the new balance ideas will be artificially weak vis-a-vis what they are meant to compete with.

Bl4ckR3alm93

Its funny because you would think that Dragonknights would have a "Implosion" passive like the one that Sorcerer's use to have but noooo. I mean it makes sense since Dragonknights dont have an excute but it made sense to ZOS to give Sorcerer's at the time 2 excutes lmao.

I think that ZOS personally doesnt like the Dragonknight class and before anyone says anything, remember that actions speak louder than words! Its been like 4 years now ZOS.

Ether....

A - Give Dragonknights a excute ability ( or atleast give Magika DK an excute since stam can technically use Executioner from two handed ). The excute should definitely be Magika in my opinion, what do you guys think?

B - if not a skill that excutes, then ADD ( not remove ) a Flame version of Implosion to the Dragonknights. I actually think that this would be the best and number 1 option that ZOS should give Dragonknights.

For example they could add a second effect to the Combustion passive that says
"Gives all Flame spells a 3%/6% chance to instantly disintegrate low Health targets, dealing (5000-10000 flame damage. Or ZOS can do scales depending on Spell or Weapon damage whichever is more balanced) Flame Damage. Gives all ( Poison or Physical Damage whichever is more balanced for ZOS ) the chance to instantly pulverize low Health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. The excute can start at 15%, 20%, or 25% health on enemies whichever percentage is more balanced especially with PVP in mind. What do you guys think?

Bl4ckR3alm93

Heres what the Old Implosion for Sorcerer was before the changes.

"Gives all Shock spells a 3%/6% chance to instantly disintegrate low Health targets, dealing 10000 Shock Damage. Gives all Physical Damage the chance to instantly pulverize low Health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them"

ZOS could just give DK a flame and poison version but instead of 10000 damage, it can be 5000 damage

YandereGirlfriend

Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »

Its funny because you would think that Dragonknights would have a "Implosion" passive like the one that Sorcerer's use to have but noooo. I mean it makes sense since Dragonknights dont have an excute but it made sense to ZOS to give Sorcerer's at the time 2 excutes lmao.

I think that ZOS personally doesnt like the Dragonknight class and before anyone says anything, remember that actions speak louder than words! Its been like 4 years now ZOS.

Ether....

A - Give Dragonknights a excute ability ( or atleast give Magika DK an excute since stam can technically use Executioner from two handed ). The excute should definitely be Magika in my opinion, what do you guys think?

B - if not a skill that excutes, then ADD ( not remove ) a Flame version of Implosion to the Dragonknights. I actually think that this would be the best and number 1 option that ZOS should give Dragonknights.

For example they could add a second effect to the Combustion passive that says
"Gives all Flame spells a 3%/6% chance to instantly disintegrate low Health targets, dealing (5000-10000 flame damage. Or ZOS can do scales depending on Spell or Weapon damage whichever is more balanced) Flame Damage. Gives all ( Poison or Physical Damage whichever is more balanced for ZOS ) the chance to instantly pulverize low Health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. The excute can start at 15%, 20%, or 25% health on enemies whichever percentage is more balanced especially with PVP in mind. What do you guys think?

Implosion was based upon one of the Perks from Skyrim for Lightning-type damage.

It was following up on the established precedent of the element. I don't remember off-hand what the Perk was for Flame-type damage in Skyrim but I believe that it might have been extra damage. This proceeds directly to the Burning Status Effect in ESO. In this way, many of ESO's combat features are descendants of choices made in Skyrim.

I would recommend coming up with something else for DKs that does not poach features from different elements - there are many good ideas out there.

robpr

A suggestion for Warmth:
Poison and Burning status effects deal up to 200% more damage to low health targets.
Damage over time effects have 50-90% chance to not get purged by negative effect removal.

Yes, yes, burst in pvp is king, but having DKs dots be hard to purge would add uniqueness to the class gameplay style by wearing opponents down by stacking dots instead of copying Warden Shalks. Max pressure till opponents get rig of their resources to heal, then finish them off with whips/leaps/executioners. Dk always been seen as a dot class.

regime211

Jameson18 wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

I do rather fine with my DKs. Both mag and stam. /shrug

Do u 1vs1 sorcs nb necros wardens fine that have a clue what there doing?

1v1, 1v2, 1v3, etc. etc. etc.

Cap

Alucardo

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

I don't mean to state the obvious, but these are completely different use cases and it's pointless to compare them. But do whatever you need to do to make your point, I guess?

Ippokrates

Alucardo wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

Just copy/paste this in every thread relating to class mechanics/balance...

I don't mean to state the obvious, but these are completely different use cases and it's pointless to compare them. But do whatever you need to do to make your point, I guess?

The only thing that connects them is a function of "delayed burst" which works great for a combo but that is all. So it would be better to compare this skill to for example "sap essence", which is more similar skill.

Sanguinor2

Ippokrates wrote: »

The only thing that connects them is a function of "delayed burst" which works great for a combo but that is all. So it would be better to compare this skill to for example "sap essence", which is more similar skill.

Why would you compare it to sap essence? Sap essence is an AoE spammable. If you spam deep breath all you do is shoot yourself in the foot in terms of damage.

Vevvev

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

The only thing that connects them is a function of "delayed burst" which works great for a combo but that is all. So it would be better to compare this skill to for example "sap essence", which is more similar skill.

Why would you compare it to sap essence? Sap essence is an AoE spammable. If you spam deep breath all you do is shoot yourself in the foot in terms of damage.

If you care about damage you wouldn't be using Deep Breath anyway.