So it seems like all this did was make procs even worse in PvE.

ssewallb14_ESO

You can still do the health stack/proc set thing in PvP. It's incredibly easy to get 6.5k weapon damage even on a tank.

But now the damage scaling for PvE builds is utter garbage and as a tank or healer I'm limited to the "right" sets instead of getting to pick what I want. A handful of niche but fun builds are getting ruined for no reason.

This is just last patch but worse. I know this is going to go live at this point but this approach to proc balancing ain't it. This needs to get sent back to the drawing board.

Anyron

Yeah.. 5 weeks completely wasted. Sometimes it looks like theres only 10 ppl working on eso

YandereGirlfriend

Anyron wrote: »

Sometimes it looks like theres only 10 ppl working on eso

I sometimes wonder about this as well.

They say 'Combat Team' which does imply that more than one person is working on combat mechanics and balance but their actual work product proceeds along at such a glacial pace that one wonders what actually goes on during the work week.

Perhaps the majority of their time is spent setting up encounters in new PvE content and such, in which case, fair enough. But it really ought to be, in a game of this size and profitability, somebody's full-time responsibility to be accountable for and responsive to the state of combat mechanics and balance.

And I don't just mean being listening and being responsive to community input, though that is indeed important. But like, have some fun and design a third morph choice for class skills or come up with completely new abilities for an added guild line. Maybe imagine some new buffs and debuffs or some actually interesting CP stars. When all of those boxes are checked, pro-actively rehabilitate those sets that the game metrics are telling you are the least used. The way to fill your days with productive work are endless.

stefj68

well for solo proc set are almost dead... its hard to reach cap you need without group buffs

Integral1900

As a casual relaxed fluffy and generally good natured PVE player, this upcoming patch has really brushed my fur the wrong way!

I just wish they would make up their mind and stop flipping from one pole to another. It is so confusing. The last patch kicked open the doors for a huge array of different builds, I had more designs for middle of the road yet fun thematic builds and even hybrids than I’ve ever had before, and now all of a sudden they do this!

To balance the problem of proc sets in PVP they have brought the hammer down on PVE, yet in PVP players are yelling about getting one shotted far more often than before, while at the same time we in PVE have seen the single biggest reduction in build adversity in the history of this game!

If the patch goes to live in its current state, most of the sets I’ve been using are going to have to go in the bin, the hybrids at least can get close to the weapon spell damage requirement but they’re still going to be 800 points short and they certainly aren’t going to be able to hit 38,000 magica or stamina. A lot of what I enjoy using is going to have its effectiveness more than cut in half! I’m so cross!

I do not understand why they cannot balance PVP and PVE separately, or use battle spirit! Doing it this way does not make any sense! The two player groups want diametrically opposed things, they cannot both be satisfied at the same time, it is creating unnecessary conflict, for one side to get what it wants the other must be penalised, there is no other way as long as they remain chained together. If they want us all to play the same boring handful of meta builds why don’t they just come out and say it! Why all this beating around the bush.

If this patch does go live I’m simply going to stick to easier content, anything beyond that is going to require builds it quite frankly bore me senseless

MarioMario

stefj68 wrote: »

well for solo proc set are almost dead... its hard to reach cap you need without group buffs

Almost...

DOT-sets have been nerfed (but physical are still very powerful on DK due to corrosive).

Now you can run Vate 2h, on top of old school clever alchemist based build, and gain a good AoE burst, better than current patch.

Brrrofski

The irony is that it completely misses the mark in PvP as well.

There are some disgusting builds going around on the PTS.

Once again, a legit issue that massively impacted PvP, met with a bad solution that affects pve which leads to PvE players blaming PvP players

All PvP players wanted was 6 or 7 proc sets nerfed and malacath looked at. Not this complete system overhaul.

Anyron

Brrrofski wrote: »

The irony is that it completely misses the mark in PvP as well.

There are some disgusting builds going around on the PTS.

Once again, a legit issue that massively impacted PvP, met with a bad solution that affects pve which leads to PvE players blaming PvP players

All PvP players wanted was 6 or 7 proc sets nerfed and malacath looked at. Not this complete system overhaul.

That isnt overhaul that is mess
Only thing they needed to do was make procsets scale from zero to live stats as max. So players needed to build for it, not just go max health and slap procset on yourself. Maybe little adjust some sets. Now more than before they showed how big imbalance is between magicka and stamina in pvp.
What they did was probably THE worst thing they could do.. They may aswell said to players : feel free to go max stats so you can oneshot eachother in PvP, no fights no lag, we have no cash from PvP anyway

Jazraena

Anyron wrote: »

Only thing they needed to do was make procsets scale from zero to live stats as max. So players needed to build for it, not just go max health and slap procset on yourself. Maybe little adjust some sets. Now more than before they showed how big imbalance is between magicka and stamina in pvp.
What they did was probably THE worst thing they could do.. They may aswell said to players : feel free to go max stats so you can oneshot eachother in PvP, no fights no lag, we have no cash from PvP anyway

Only thing for PvP maybe. The PvE Backlash would have been exactly the same. The entire approach is questionable.

gariondavey

All they had to do was buff proc sets by around 25 percent to make them decent in pve, then apply battle spirit to proc damage (results in around 30 percent nerf in PvP) and not let malacath buff them. So so so so so so simple.

karekiz

gariondavey wrote: »

All they had to do was buff proc sets by around 25 percent to make them decent in pve, then apply battle spirit to proc damage (results in around 30 percent nerf in PvP) and not let malacath buff them. So so so so so so simple.

NO!

We can't use systems literally built in place to do something when we can create entirely new systems to do the same thing.

WTF is wrong with you. This is the year of performance X3, just with less features.

Jaraal

stefj68 wrote: »

well for solo proc set are almost dead... its hard to reach cap you need without group buffs

Yep, ZOS continues to strengthen ball groups and disempower solo players. They even increased the radius of Vicious Death so the coordinated zerg will cause an even wider swath of destruction. Plus the fact that guild groups have always specialized for their individual roles and will have to only make minimal changes while getting even stronger due to the new stat max meta, while solo and small scale folks will have to scramble and try to farm even more sets to remain partially as relevant as they once were. And having to choose between survivability and damage will make them even less effective against the ball groups.

SirLeeMinion

Anyron wrote: »

Yeah.. 5 weeks completely wasted. Sometimes it looks like theres only 10 ppl working on eso

I've wondered if the combat "Team" was maybe just the two people we see speak about combat and if one of those focuses on combat for just part of their time. Then the wild design swings we see back and forth aren't so much the developers arrogantly ignoring informed and relevant feedback. Instead, it is them putting out the worst of the fires that 1) they really didn't see coming and 2) don't have the staffing to fix in the short PTS cycle.

It's the most charitable interpretation I can come up with. (more realistic ones seem to get moderated) That said, if under staffing really is the issue, it begs the question of why they attempt so much unwanted change in so little time.

BlueRaven

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Yeah.. 5 weeks completely wasted. Sometimes it looks like theres only 10 ppl working on eso

I've wondered if the combat "Team" was maybe just the two people we see speak about combat and if one of those focuses on combat for just part of their time. Then the wild design swings we see back and forth aren't so much the developers arrogantly ignoring informed and relevant feedback. Instead, it is them putting out the worst of the fires that 1) they really didn't see coming and 2) don't have the staffing to fix in the short PTS cycle.

It's the most charitable interpretation I can come up with. (more realistic ones seem to get moderated) That said, if under staffing really is the issue, it begs the question of why they attempt so much unwanted change in so little time.

I have made jokes in the past about asking if the combat team was working part time;

“But it was a serious joke. You know like when you are joking, but you mean it?” -Pete Davidson, SNL

I think it really started with the race rebalancing, and I thought to myself they had all this time, and this was the best they came up with? It felt like a bunch of ideas they cooked up that morning on the commute when they realized that day was the day the work was due.
I don’t understand these wild swings at all.

But isn’t Zos working on another game at the moment? If it’s the same teams perhaps they are working on eso part time.

I am not joking here, it’s an honest question.

I am really trying to figure out why these wild “throw something at the wall and see if it sticks” type balancing moves are done this way.

At this point we should not be doing these wild moves, it should be just fine tuning. Instead I am starting to get gear paralysis. Seriously, “why bother changing gear, if I just have to throw it away in three months” type gameplay. I can understand new gear if the new set is something that appeals to my gameplay style. But now it feels I have to scramble because my current gear sets are getting torpedoed, and I was just a middle of the road dd player.

gariondavey

karekiz wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

All they had to do was buff proc sets by around 25 percent to make them decent in pve, then apply battle spirit to proc damage (results in around 30 percent nerf in PvP) and not let malacath buff them. So so so so so so simple.

NO!

We can't use systems literally built in place to do something when we can create entirely new systems to do the same thing.

WTF is wrong with you. This is the year of performance X3, just with less features.

You had me in the first half, not gonna lie
Lmao

Anyron

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Yeah.. 5 weeks completely wasted. Sometimes it looks like theres only 10 ppl working on eso

I've wondered if the combat "Team" was maybe just the two people we see speak about combat and if one of those focuses on combat for just part of their time. Then the wild design swings we see back and forth aren't so much the developers arrogantly ignoring informed and relevant feedback. Instead, it is them putting out the worst of the fires that 1) they really didn't see coming and 2) don't have the staffing to fix in the short PTS cycle.

It's the most charitable interpretation I can come up with. (more realistic ones seem to get moderated) That said, if under staffing really is the issue, it begs the question of why they attempt so much unwanted change in so little time.

if there are only few people working on this then im out.. this game have really big budget so i dont believe its understaffed.. i see it as intended ignor

Jaraal

Jayroo wrote: »

Maybe the player-base will take a dip this year

Already down 16% on Steam in the last 30 days. Could be aggressive change fatigue. I know a lot of people aren't happy with the new CP change and the fact that they aren't fixing the green tree that most people complain about, but yet they are nerfing the red and blue trees like literally no one asked for. Plus Cyrodiil is a ghost town because people are tired of having their gear confiscated for months, and there's nothing to look forward to since when we get it back it will be garbage due to upcoming nerfs.

The game has already lost over 1/3 of the player base from it's peak. Should be interesting to see how the Blackwood release affects it.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Ishtharo

Integral1900 wrote: »

As a casual relaxed fluffy and generally good natured PVE player, this upcoming patch has really brushed my fur the wrong way!

I just wish they would make up their mind and stop flipping from one pole to another. It is so confusing. The last patch kicked open the doors for a huge array of different builds, I had more designs for middle of the road yet fun thematic builds and even hybrids than I’ve ever had before, and now all of a sudden they do this!

To balance the problem of proc sets in PVP they have brought the hammer down on PVE, yet in PVP players are yelling about getting one shotted far more often than before, while at the same time we in PVE have seen the single biggest reduction in build adversity in the history of this game!

If the patch goes to live in its current state, most of the sets I’ve been using are going to have to go in the bin, the hybrids at least can get close to the weapon spell damage requirement but they’re still going to be 800 points short and they certainly aren’t going to be able to hit 38,000 magica or stamina. A lot of what I enjoy using is going to have its effectiveness more than cut in half! I’m so cross!

I do not understand why they cannot balance PVP and PVE separately, or use battle spirit! Doing it this way does not make any sense! The two player groups want diametrically opposed things, they cannot both be satisfied at the same time, it is creating unnecessary conflict, for one side to get what it wants the other must be penalised, there is no other way as long as they remain chained together. If they want us all to play the same boring handful of meta builds why don’t they just come out and say it! Why all this beating around the bush.

If this patch does go live I’m simply going to stick to easier content, anything beyond that is going to require builds it quite frankly bore me senseless

It was to balance proc sets in both PvE and PvP, to be fair.
But yes, generally, ZOS has no idea what it's doing or what it wants to do.

Took them a month and a half to fix a game-breaking mail bug after all, but if it was a crown store issue it would have been fixed in hours.

Ringing_Nirnroot

Wish seperate servers for pvp and pve was a thing

Anyron

Ringing_Nirnroot wrote: »

Wish seperate servers for pvp and pve was a thing

Players want separate PvP gear from pve for years. And no only gear but skills too. This is stupid decision of zos to do it the hard way

Derra

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

You can still do the health stack/proc set thing in PvP. It's incredibly easy to get 6.5k weapon damage even on a tank.

*criesinspelldmg

Anyron

Derra wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

You can still do the health stack/proc set thing in PvP. It's incredibly easy to get 6.5k weapon damage even on a tank.

*criesinspelldmg

bbut you have P.E.N.E.T.R.A.T.I.O.N its fair !

SARCASM

Marcus_Thracius

Mag builds can penetrate pretty hard , and stam have a lot of olala

wheresbes

I can comment only with a rant.

I was fine in LA given the resistances provided by my race -> they nerfed Nord resistances

I adjusted to the changes -> they made us even more vulnerable to martial attacks

I decided to try a crit build -> they nerfed crit

I finally had some CP points -> they changed the whole system

I finally got some monster helms -> they'll be worthless

I wanted to have some fun with procs -> same as above

What about a hybrid build? -> forget about it


By Ysgramor, next patch I'll go around naked punching things!

Play as you want, right?

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

Maybe the player-base will take a dip this year

Already down 16% on Steam in the last 30 days. Could be aggressive change fatigue. I know a lot of people aren't happy with the new CP change and the fact that they aren't fixing the green tree that most people complain about, but yet they are nerfing the red and blue trees like literally no one asked for. Plus Cyrodiil is a ghost town because people are tired of having their gear confiscated for months, and there's nothing to look forward to since when we get it back it will be garbage due to upcoming nerfs.

The game has already lost over 1/3 of the player base from it's peak. Should be interesting to see how the Blackwood release affects it.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

I know it is not scientific, nor quantifiable, but I have also noticed that forum participation is down too.
I remember a time when if no one responded with a comment in an hour or two, any forum thread would have reached the second page. Now it can linger for most of the day on the first page.

Anyron

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

Maybe the player-base will take a dip this year

Already down 16% on Steam in the last 30 days. Could be aggressive change fatigue. I know a lot of people aren't happy with the new CP change and the fact that they aren't fixing the green tree that most people complain about, but yet they are nerfing the red and blue trees like literally no one asked for. Plus Cyrodiil is a ghost town because people are tired of having their gear confiscated for months, and there's nothing to look forward to since when we get it back it will be garbage due to upcoming nerfs.

The game has already lost over 1/3 of the player base from it's peak. Should be interesting to see how the Blackwood release affects it.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

I know it is not scientific, nor quantifiable, but I have also noticed that forum participation is down too.
I remember a time when if no one responded with a comment in an hour or two, any forum thread would have reached the second page. Now it can linger for most of the day on the first page.

Because everyone gave up.. Its pointless here.

qwudd

All PvP players wanted was 6 or 7 proc sets nerfed and malacath looked at. Not this complete system overhaul

We can all fondly remember the CEOs december letter, ensuring us there would be no major system changes this year. 👍

Shadow_CH

qwudd wrote: »

All PvP players wanted was 6 or 7 proc sets nerfed and malacath looked at. Not this complete system overhaul

We can all fondly remember the CEOs december letter, ensuring us there would be no major system changes this year. 👍

Totally this!

Well, it's just... CP 2.0... proc rework... companions... endeavors... not much

Let's see what Q3 and Q4 will bring!

qwudd

Totally this!

Well, it's just... CP 2.0... proc rework... companions... endeavors... not much

Let's see what Q3 and Q4 will bring!

Oh boy! Buckle up, were in for new adventures! Gold out all your sets or stock up on those antidepressives! Time to ride the steam
charts rollercoster! 😬

Dagoth_Rac

Shadow_CH wrote: »

qwudd wrote: »

All PvP players wanted was 6 or 7 proc sets nerfed and malacath looked at. Not this complete system overhaul

We can all fondly remember the CEOs december letter, ensuring us there would be no major system changes this year. 👍

Totally this!

Well, it's just... CP 2.0... proc rework... companions... endeavors... not much

Let's see what Q3 and Q4 will bring!

It is such an utterly bizarre design philosophy. I know online games that are looking for "engagement" (i.e., create busy work that will keep you online 24/7) will always want to mix up the meta. They want you switching out gear sets and skills and passives and going back to old content to farm newly buffed items, etc. But there are so many ways to mix up the meta that are less time-consuming and convoluted than what ZOS do. They just re-invent the wheel over and over again.

I know they talk about how it is time-consuming and inefficient to have to evaluate hundreds of sets on a one-by-one basis, and that having global rules for processing and power budgets makes that easier. But having all these complicated systems in place that attempt to create one-size-fits-all universal rules has led them to nothing but problems, too.

I feel like ZOS are in that, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good," scenario. They are spending so much time trying to come up with "perfect" rules and power budgets that will be balanced for solo and dungeons and overland and arenas and Cyrodiil and battlegrounds and Trials and ball groups, etc., etc.

But there is no perfect formula. And they need to get their hands dirty and start taking in the entire gestalt of sets and skills. None of these overpowered gear sets and skills and passives exist in a vacuum. And all these spreadsheets and power budgets seem to ignore that. And all these sets and skills and passives that are overpowered or underpowered are usually that way because of a small number of interlocking things, not because they need to change entire processing subsystems that underlay the entire game.

They also need to get into the habit of making small combat tweaks between major updates. Something seems overpowered and underpowered? Make a small tweak immediately and see how it plays out. ZOS make way too many combat changes at once in major updates. If you have too many moving parts, it becomes extremely difficult to figure out what changes impacted what things and by how much.

For example, what happens when some builds inevitably seem underpowered or overpowered next Update. How do you determine why? Proc scaling? Changes to CP 2.0? Nerfs and buffs to skills/gear? New mythics? Some combo of all of it? Who knows? It is all a mess when you do too many things at once. It not only confounds and frustrates players, it makes ZOS' job harder, too.

ManDraKE

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

You can still do the health stack/proc set thing in PvP. It's incredibly easy to get 6.5k weapon damage even on a tank.

No, is not incredibly easy. I wish people stopped repeating stupid things without actually trying to make playable builds. I laughted hard the other day with kristopereso trying to "show" that on stream, he built a meme 8k wpn damge build, went into duel with a random average joe and go destroyed in a few seconds because he couldnt sustain. Then proceeded to drop weapon damage for sustain, and never went into another duel because he knew he had 0 mitigation and that wasnt a viable build and said "see guys, the build is playable" lul

Stacking 6.5k wpn damage on a viable build is really hard, and in the cases were you can actually do it withouth ending with a meme build, you usually have <40% uptime on that weapon damage because it involved things like clever alch, wpn damage enchanment, etc, and all that just to let 1 procset hit as in live. While you can still hit hard with procs, you cant go 45k HP warden tank with 3 procsets and pretend to kill competent people, those builds are dead. Plus they got a flat 10% damage reduce with the nerf of malatard.