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2-handed vs Dual wield PVP imbalanced

Draevik
Draevik
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Dual wield so far outclassed it is shameful. Just comparing flurry to d-swing alone is just silly.

Dizzying Swing
  • High Damage
  • 0.8s cast time
  • Causes off-balance
  • Stuns from a med attack
  • Snares if cannot be stunned

Why does a spammable get all these effects exactly?

Flurry
  • High Damage
  • 0.6s channel time

Why doesn't this have effects similar to Dizzying?

2-H execute costs: 1836 stamina - the AOE version costs the same
DW execute costs: 2983 stamina... 1147 stamina more than the 2H execute

2H line
A good spammable AOE with a huge ward attached
Usable charge that always crits
Awesome execute
Rally which is an insanely strong heal and gives brutality and minor endurance
Amazing ultimate that will circumvent all armor someone is wearing.

DW line
A clunky ranged attack that gives major brutality and can hit up to five targets or a terrible teleport
Hard hitting AOE execute - that costs a lot of stamina
Blade cloak - major evasion, small dot, possibly major expedition
Terrible low damage AOE ultimate with a low amount healed

Now to the passives

2-hand
Battle Rush: +30% stam regen after killing a target for 10s with 2 handed weapon equipped. (Why does this not require you to kill the target with a 2-handed weapon attack?)


Dual Wield
Slaughter: 20% more damage against enemies below 25% hp with dual wield abilities - if an enemy is at 25% this is useless in PVP. They are pretty much guaranteed to die
Ruffian: 15% damage vs CCed enemies while using dual wield attacks - this is a good passive
  • Extinct_Solo_Player
    Extinct_Solo_Player
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    Draevik wrote: »
    Dual wield so far outclassed it is shameful. Just comparing flurry to d-swing alone is just silly.

    Dizzying Swing
    • High Damage
    • 0.8s cast time
    • Causes off-balance
    • Stuns from a med attack
    • Snares if cannot be stunned

    Why does a spammable get all these effects exactly?

    Flurry
    • High Damage
    • 0.6s channel time

    Why doesn't this have effects similar to Dizzying?

    2-H execute costs: 1836 stamina - the AOE version costs the same
    DW execute costs: 2983 stamina... 1147 stamina more than the 2H execute

    2H line
    A good spammable AOE with a huge ward attached
    Usable charge that always crits
    Awesome execute
    Rally which is an insanely strong heal and gives brutality and minor endurance
    Amazing ultimate that will circumvent all armor someone is wearing.

    DW line
    A clunky ranged attack that gives major brutality and can hit up to five targets or a terrible teleport
    Hard hitting AOE execute - that costs a lot of stamina
    Blade cloak - major evasion, small dot, possibly major expedition
    Terrible low damage AOE ultimate with a low amount healed

    Now to the passives

    2-hand
    Battle Rush: +30% stam regen after killing a target for 10s with 2 handed weapon equipped. (Why does this not require you to kill the target with a 2-handed weapon attack?)


    Dual Wield
    Slaughter: 20% more damage against enemies below 25% hp with dual wield abilities - if an enemy is at 25% this is useless in PVP. They are pretty much guaranteed to die
    Ruffian: 15% damage vs CCed enemies while using dual wield attacks - this is a good passive

    also, look at the gutted snb skillline too, now its only good to be pigeonholed into using it for defense when not too far in the past it was actually a nice viable option for dps in pvp.
  • ResidentContrarian
    ResidentContrarian
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    And yet most players use 2H on stam...

    But I always choose DW - bow or DW - resto on a stam char ;)
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    And yet most players use 2H on stam...

    Uh yes, I thought it was clear that is the point I was making.
    Edited by Draevik on May 18, 2021 3:15PM
  • Freakin_Hytte
    Freakin_Hytte
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    Well the answer is pretty simple, a lot of people people screamed for nerfs to dw and snb, so zos did what they always do and gutted those two to the ground and at the same time buffed 2h through the roof. Instead of tweaking the skill lines they basically killed a huuuge amount of viable builds, leaving only 2h as a go to.
    Edited by Freakin_Hytte on May 18, 2021 3:24PM
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
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    The main reason people use 2H over dual wield is rally vs hidden blade. Rally is snare removal or a huge heal and can be activated out of combat and without a target, hidden blade is so garbage you run 2H back bar on most builds. If hidden blade is replaced with a far better and more effective brutality buff it would get far more use.
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    The main reason people use 2H over dual wield is rally vs hidden blade. Rally is snare removal or a huge heal and can be activated out of combat and without a target, hidden blade is so garbage you run 2H back bar on most builds. If hidden blade is replaced with a far better and more effective brutality buff it would get far more use.

    Also, the sustain with 2h is way better with Battle Rush and minor endurance. Sustain is super important in PVP.

    Just improving the brutality buff is not enough, as their spammable is MUCH better in PVP as it has CC, and causes them to take more damage

    Too much utility

  • L_Nici
    L_Nici
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    The dualwield execute is that expensive, because it hits without aiming. Even tough the 2h execute can be an AoE, it can be dodged, Spin to Win can't, you get hit no matter what.
    Edited by L_Nici on May 18, 2021 4:53PM
    A very special girl

    PC|EU
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    L_Nici wrote: »
    The dualwield execute is that expensive, because it hits without aiming. Even tough the 2h execute can be an AoE, it can be dodged, Spin to Win can't, you get hit no matter what.

    Although in my extensive use and avoidance of it I have found it is pretty easy to avoid the AoE unless you are CCed
  • L_Nici
    L_Nici
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    If you are far away enough to dodge Spin to Win, you would also dodge the 2h execute. But in case you are in range of Spin to Win, you will take that damage, even if you dodgerole, while the 2h execute would be dodged.
    Edited by L_Nici on May 18, 2021 5:30PM
    A very special girl

    PC|EU
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    L_Nici wrote: »
    If you are far away enough to dodge Spin to Win, you would also dodge the 2h execute. But in case you are in range of Spin to Win, you will take that damage, even if you dodgerole, while the 2h execute would be dodged.

    Of course agreed, but 2h will just charge you endlessly to stay in range while executing. DW has no opportunity charge available unless they run S&B to SC in. If you try to use Flying Blade in PVP you will not have a fun time, trust me lol.
  • HanStolo
    HanStolo
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    you forgot to mention the stupid range that dizzy and the execute hits at. Oh you're behind the guy, don't worry, it still hits you. It's just dumb. Even it up, devs...
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    HanStolo wrote: »
    you forgot to mention the stupid range that dizzy and the execute hits at. Oh you're behind the guy, don't worry, it still hits you. It's just dumb. Even it up, devs...

    That is funny that you mentioned this. I remember reading about "counters to dizzying swing". The consensus among the elite PVPers is just run right through them and it cancels. Well unless it is totally different in PVE vs PVP on the hit mechanics. I tested this so many times, everytime I ran through a mob while casting dizzy it would cast behind me, to the side etc. The only way to avoid it is get like 15 meters out of range and even still with desync it will still most likely hit.
  • HanStolo
    HanStolo
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    Draevik wrote: »
    HanStolo wrote: »
    you forgot to mention the stupid range that dizzy and the execute hits at. Oh you're behind the guy, don't worry, it still hits you. It's just dumb. Even it up, devs...

    That is funny that you mentioned this. I remember reading about "counters to dizzying swing". The consensus among the elite PVPers is just run right through them and it cancels. Well unless it is totally different in PVE vs PVP on the hit mechanics. I tested this so many times, everytime I ran through a mob while casting dizzy it would cast behind me, to the side etc. The only way to avoid it is get like 15 meters out of range and even still with desync it will still most likely hit.

    EXACTLY!
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    Draevik wrote: »
    HanStolo wrote: »
    you forgot to mention the stupid range that dizzy and the execute hits at. Oh you're behind the guy, don't worry, it still hits you. It's just dumb. Even it up, devs...

    That is funny that you mentioned this. I remember reading about "counters to dizzying swing". The consensus among the elite PVPers is just run right through them and it cancels. Well unless it is totally different in PVE vs PVP on the hit mechanics. I tested this so many times, everytime I ran through a mob while casting dizzy it would cast behind me, to the side etc. The only way to avoid it is get like 15 meters out of range and even still with desync it will still most likely hit.

    Your referring to how the skill USE to work. It was changed.

    Old way:

    2 checks. Player A needs to be within range with the cursor on the target when they cast, at the end of the cast it does another check to deal the final blow of damage. This is why Player B could just walk through Player A to cancel the animation. It also had a cast time of 1.2 seconds and dealt MORE damage then it does now, while knocking people up. A lot of elite players preferred this because it did insane damage and stunned, but for more casual players (most of the player base) the skill felt AWFUL to use. The skill was constantly cancelled because it's really hard to keep your cursor on someone for an entire 1.2s.

    New way:

    1 check. Player A needs to be within range with the cursor on the target when they cast, damage after the 0.8s cast time is guaranteed whether Player A is looking at Player B or not. Walking through them will do nothing. I believe you can still get out of the range of the skill within the 0.8s or dodge, but Player A doesn't actually need to aim at you by the end of it. The damage was signifigantly reduced, no longer knocks up or even stuns on the first hit. The condition that it snares if the target is immune was added to make it not feel as punishing to Player A since the damage isn't sparsed out or instant, it's delayed and pretty easy to avoid.

    The changes made to the ability were also done to make it more usuable in pve as a 2H spammable, since LA weaving and rotations are so important, 1.2s could kill your rotation, DPS, and make you more likely to die to mechanics. 0.8s was made as a standard to most spammables with channel/cast times as you can see with Templars Jabs and Sorcs Crystal Shard. Allowing them to stay within the 1s GCD and for pve players to weave properly.

    If you want an idea of how the skill use to be used, you can try the opposite morph of Dizzy Swing, for whatever reason, Wrecking Blow still has the 2 checks (Unless they've patched it, I haven't checked in Update 29). This is ironic because it's clearly the PVE damage dealing morph. It makes it very frustrating to use for me.

    Also, if you weren't aware, this is how Flurry works too. There is only 1 check at the beginning for your cursor. You can cast the skill then turn completely away from the target and as long as you're in range of the 7m, you will deal all ticks of damage over the 0.6s. That is also why it's more reliable and doesn't need as many extra components to the skill like Dizzy, the damage is channeled with about 50% over time and 50% on the last hit and it's over a shorter duration. Less bursty, but definitely more reliable DPS. It just doesn't make it a great option for PVP because CC AND burst is so important.

    They're not really comparable in the way you're making them out to be.
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    Also, if you weren't aware, this is how Flurry works too. There is only 1 check at the beginning for your cursor. You can cast the skill then turn completely away from the target and as long as you're in range of the 7m, you will deal all ticks of damage over the 0.6s. That is also why it's more reliable and doesn't need as many extra components to the skill like Dizzy, the damage is channeled with about 50% over time and 50% on the last hit and it's over a shorter duration. Less bursty, but definitely more reliable DPS. It just doesn't make it a great option for PVP because CC AND burst is so important.

    They're not really comparable in the way you're making them out to be.

    Yes you are absolutely right; they are not comparable. Queuing up a med attack while casting dizzying swing is the easiest thing known to man, literally just hold light attack while Dizzy is casting for a split second longer and bam instantly hits after the dizzy and stuns your opponent.

    If they were comparable then dizzy wouldn't be used by 95% of PVPers. It does nearly the same damage as flurry by pure numbers but once you add on the off-balance I bet you it is even more. Then add the icing, it stuns too. 4-in-one swiss army skill with off-balance, stun, snare, big damage
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Draevik wrote: »

    Also, if you weren't aware, this is how Flurry works too. There is only 1 check at the beginning for your cursor. You can cast the skill then turn completely away from the target and as long as you're in range of the 7m, you will deal all ticks of damage over the 0.6s. That is also why it's more reliable and doesn't need as many extra components to the skill like Dizzy, the damage is channeled with about 50% over time and 50% on the last hit and it's over a shorter duration. Less bursty, but definitely more reliable DPS. It just doesn't make it a great option for PVP because CC AND burst is so important.

    They're not really comparable in the way you're making them out to be.

    Yes you are absolutely right; they are not comparable. Queuing up a med attack while casting dizzying swing is the easiest thing known to man, literally just hold light attack while Dizzy is casting for a split second longer and bam instantly hits after the dizzy and stuns your opponent.

    If they were comparable then dizzy wouldn't be used by 95% of PVPers. It does nearly the same damage as flurry by pure numbers but once you add on the off-balance I bet you it is even more. Then add the icing, it stuns too. 4-in-one swiss army skill with off-balance, stun, snare, big damage

    Dont discount the synergy of 2h that makes slotting its abilities so attractive.

    Lets say you swapped flurry and DS; youd see more 2h Flurry users than DW DS users. Rally, vateshran 2h, and executioner make slotting any 2h spammable a great idea; esp when its TT is higher than a class spammable
    Edited by Waffennacht on May 27, 2021 4:41PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    Draevik wrote: »

    Also, if you weren't aware, this is how Flurry works too. There is only 1 check at the beginning for your cursor. You can cast the skill then turn completely away from the target and as long as you're in range of the 7m, you will deal all ticks of damage over the 0.6s. That is also why it's more reliable and doesn't need as many extra components to the skill like Dizzy, the damage is channeled with about 50% over time and 50% on the last hit and it's over a shorter duration. Less bursty, but definitely more reliable DPS. It just doesn't make it a great option for PVP because CC AND burst is so important.

    They're not really comparable in the way you're making them out to be.

    Yes you are absolutely right; they are not comparable. Queuing up a med attack while casting dizzying swing is the easiest thing known to man, literally just hold light attack while Dizzy is casting for a split second longer and bam instantly hits after the dizzy and stuns your opponent.

    If they were comparable then dizzy wouldn't be used by 95% of PVPers. It does nearly the same damage as flurry by pure numbers but once you add on the off-balance I bet you it is even more. Then add the icing, it stuns too. 4-in-one swiss army skill with off-balance, stun, snare, big damage

    Dont discount the synergy of 2h that makes slotting its abilities so attractive.

    Lets say you swapped flurry and DS; youd see more 2h Flurry users than DW DS users. Rally, vateshran 2h, and executioner make slotting any 2h spammable a great idea; esp when its TT is higher than a class spammable

    Oh I know, I had already touched on that point earlier in the thread. The battle rush alone is worth slotting 2h for.
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    vdsa dualwield + rending slashes => dizzying swing anyday.

    2h > dw because of rally, otherwise you’d see a lot more people using dw front bar.
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Unified_Gaming
    Unified_Gaming
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    vdsa dualwield + rending slashes => dizzying swing anyday.

    2h > dw because of rally, otherwise you’d see a lot more people using dw front bar.

    Vate 2h + dizzy > vdsa dual wield + rending slashes
    Unified Gaming - creating a shared and Unified Gaming community.

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  • techyeshic
    techyeshic
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    Draevik wrote: »
    HanStolo wrote: »
    you forgot to mention the stupid range that dizzy and the execute hits at. Oh you're behind the guy, don't worry, it still hits you. It's just dumb. Even it up, devs...

    That is funny that you mentioned this. I remember reading about "counters to dizzying swing". The consensus among the elite PVPers is just run right through them and it cancels. Well unless it is totally different in PVE vs PVP on the hit mechanics. I tested this so many times, everytime I ran through a mob while casting dizzy it would cast behind me, to the side etc. The only way to avoid it is get like 15 meters out of range and even still with desync it will still most likely hit.

    Back in the patch that brought major position desync, there was some fooling around with when am ability does it's range and LOS check.
    Used to be a check at activation as well as firing and Soo you could now activate abilities a little better (very little), but; not only do we not know where the enemy or even ourselves really are, we also get hit by things that don't appear to be near by.

    This game has a huge issue with location tracking and I am positive that is at least most of performance issues.
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    ...and what about destro staff? The only choice for magicka? It's only PvE skill line.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • monkiie
    monkiie
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    2h/DW>destro staff
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    ...and what about destro staff? The only choice for magicka? It's only PvE skill line.

    Works great on my magDK for giving me some kind of ranged attack via light attacking, and getting lucky killing someone with a light attack for the magicka restore, but other than that I don't really use any of it's abilities. Used to use Weakness to Elements but it just doesn't feel as good as it once did, especially with the purge spammers making it worthless to cast.

    I guess one could use the Crushing Shock spammable since it's cheaper than something like Elemental Weapon with the added interrupt, but it does indeed lack the tools to make it viable in PVP. The added execute mechanics on the Flame Impulse ability was a step in the right direction, but where they stuck the additional damage makes the ability still inferior to Reverse Slash.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.
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  • WeylandLabs
    WeylandLabs
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    [snip]

    This is a great topic especially because seems everyone has the same playstyle, Two Hand got super buffed over the past 3 years and Duel Wield stayed homogenized.

    Especially in PVP its kind of bad that flurry hasn't been useful since VMA Duel wield got nerfed because of a high test dummy parse for PVE players. ?

    Makes no sense returning to the game after 2 and a half years only to find people running the same meta stuff , but that's ZOS sales either like it or leave. No way for retuning players like myself to catch up, but I'm not spending money on this game anymore to play learn new mechanics to try and get new gear to get to PVP. Sucks that older sets dont work good anymore.

    Great post interesting to see the comments. 👍

    [edited for bumping]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 4, 2021 6:24PM
  • Marcus_Aurelius
    Marcus_Aurelius
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    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.

    Could you elaborate please?
    I'm really tired of 2h and would love to go dw but haven't found a working build.
    Just throw some idea if you don't want to share your build.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.

    Could you elaborate please?
    I'm really tired of 2h and would love to go dw but haven't found a working build.
    Just throw some idea if you don't want to share your build.

    I haven't set her up on proc yet because we just got it on XB and I've not gotten to that character but the skills won't change.

    Flies -> sub assault -> spam spin to win is the nastiest thing you can do. You work other skills in there as necessary but many times you don't need to. Just keep your netch up and rotate heals as necessary. The benefit is you don't miss with spin to win because it's an aoe. Throw in their various CC capabilities to further hold targets in place while you go whirrrrr.
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  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.

    Could you elaborate please?
    I'm really tired of 2h and would love to go dw but haven't found a working build.
    Just throw some idea if you don't want to share your build.

    I haven't set her up on proc yet because we just got it on XB and I've not gotten to that character but the skills won't change.

    Flies -> sub assault -> spam spin to win is the nastiest thing you can do. You work other skills in there as necessary but many times you don't need to. Just keep your netch up and rotate heals as necessary. The benefit is you don't miss with spin to win because it's an aoe. Throw in their various CC capabilities to further hold targets in place while you go whirrrrr.

    I use master dw with rending as my main spammable on both stamcro and stamden.
    Not really a fan of dizzy, never been and rending works well on both.
    The dot is also nice extra pressure between burst combos, something neither class usually has a lot otherwise(at least not with the dizzy playstyle).
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.

    Could you elaborate please?
    I'm really tired of 2h and would love to go dw but haven't found a working build.
    Just throw some idea if you don't want to share your build.

    I haven't set her up on proc yet because we just got it on XB and I've not gotten to that character but the skills won't change.

    Flies -> sub assault -> spam spin to win is the nastiest thing you can do. You work other skills in there as necessary but many times you don't need to. Just keep your netch up and rotate heals as necessary. The benefit is you don't miss with spin to win because it's an aoe. Throw in their various CC capabilities to further hold targets in place while you go whirrrrr.

    I use master dw with rending as my main spammable on both stamcro and stamden.
    Not really a fan of dizzy, never been and rending works well on both.
    The dot is also nice extra pressure between burst combos, something neither class usually has a lot otherwise(at least not with the dizzy playstyle).

    Master dw is nasty. I have the perfected set but I like have two five piece sets active and don't want to sacrifice a monster helm.
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  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    I get it. On paper 2H seems a million times better but in game, on the right build, dw is a murder machine. You just have to play to it's strengths. I would never go 2h on my stamden, for example.

    Could you elaborate please?
    I'm really tired of 2h and would love to go dw but haven't found a working build.
    Just throw some idea if you don't want to share your build.

    I haven't set her up on proc yet because we just got it on XB and I've not gotten to that character but the skills won't change.

    Flies -> sub assault -> spam spin to win is the nastiest thing you can do. You work other skills in there as necessary but many times you don't need to. Just keep your netch up and rotate heals as necessary. The benefit is you don't miss with spin to win because it's an aoe. Throw in their various CC capabilities to further hold targets in place while you go whirrrrr.

    I use master dw with rending as my main spammable on both stamcro and stamden.
    Not really a fan of dizzy, never been and rending works well on both.
    The dot is also nice extra pressure between burst combos, something neither class usually has a lot otherwise(at least not with the dizzy playstyle).

    Master dw is nasty. I have the perfected set but I like have two five piece sets active and don't want to sacrifice a monster helm.

    Yeah I get it's just their main spammables are awful and I don't like dizzy, so I'm okay with taking a hit to have a more enjoyable playstyle.
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