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What's the ideal scaling for damage proc sets? [Poll]

divnyi
divnyi
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I seriously think that current PTS formula is far from ideal.

Let's try to grasp what they tried to achieve:
1. Further pushing magica as "healer class" -- (reality) only removes proc sets from mages in PvE, forcing them to go for pure crit stat.
2. Further pushing stamina as "damage burst" -- (reality) stamina is already outperforming magica as burst damage
3. Remove HP-tanks stacking procs for free damage in PvP -- (reality) this is not working! You can stack HP independently from weapon damage.

I, personally, would like solution with scaling from max stamina / max magica. And here is why:
1. It reduces strength of stam in PvP compared to mag, which is nice -- (downside) is the same propagates to PvE :/
2. You can lower the bar for achieving current values, since going stats means you don't stack HP. It solves HP tanks with procs problem completely
3. Stamina/magica is buffed by horn. Nobody horns in PvP. Which means PvE will use those sets more effectively.

Anyway, what do you thing about scalings?

What's the ideal scaling for damage proc sets? [Poll] 135 votes

max(weapon_damage, spell_damage) [current PTS]
8%
jonathanb16_ESOStillianvalidifyedneb18_ESOStrider__RoshinManDraKEsweatapodimasdelichonAscarlNevidyraMrZeDarkSkaraMinoc 11 votes
max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)
11%
BalticBluesArcVelarianmaster_vanargandamir412FeindrahVeeskMickeyTivnaelJayrooStevie6ealdwinJameson18divnyiexreiDarian_RathTarius 16 votes
max(stamina_mod+weapon_damage, magica_mod+spell_damage)
27%
GedericKayshaDTStormfoxSeptimus_MagnaAektannactoshYoWombatDrahnwretch200Elo106Mastercris91AgentUrielYlikollikasElusiinDovahmiimNarvuntienNebula_DooMJierdanitKarm1cOnemartijnlv40 37 votes
No scaling [current live]
37%
ColoniaCroisantBowserlolo_01b16_ESOAkynathosMahabahabthaSnowstriderguulFuxoArcanasxWolfchild07PhaedrynMojomonkeymanjrgray93moleculesix2fallRex-UmbraMartoOhtimbarLadyNalcaryaLeogon 51 votes
Your option
14%
NeillMcAttackIxSTALKERxIkalunteVaohWaffennachtZer0_CooLYthothaNordSwordnBoardRatzkifalAnyronTommy_The_GunkarekizXebovtonyblackYandereGirlfriendremositolQruklajkb78SgtNuttzmegAyaDark 20 votes
  • Jameson18
    Jameson18
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    max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)
    Honestly, I don't care much. Just as long as something gets done about the over abundance of people using 2 vateshran weps, crimson, zaan, and malacath, all at the same time.
  • NordSwordnBoard
    NordSwordnBoard
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    Your option
    I think that since stam typically has somewhere 1k-3k more damage, that the scaling should account for that. Something like 5k spell damage / 7k weapon damage to reach previous value. They have to be careful of making sets too specific, practically barring some sets from use because your other set choices stack a different stat. This would limit build diversity through effectiveness, when the real culprit are sets that bend their own "rules".

    I agree there should be something different. It feels like Stam and Mag were "separate but equal" and this scaling change makes them closer ergo the inequalities become more amplified.
    Fear is the Mindkiller
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    No scaling [current live]
    Seven years of blanket nerfing entire game systems instead of the handful of outliers. Sigh.
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • TankHealz2015
    TankHealz2015
    ✭✭✭

    Several ideas have been posted on the forums:

    adjust only those sets that cause problems
    adjust via champion points
    adjust via armor or weapon traits (i.e. proc resist trait of some sort)
    adjust via battle spirit
    adjust via scaling (max stat or weapon/spell damage)
    adjust via mundus stone

    Did I miss any?

  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    Your option
    As much as I otherwise like the increasing trend toward hybridization, it might be a good idea to un-hybridize proc set scaling. Then you could tune the scaling to values that are appropriate for both specs at casual PvE levels while also disallowing Stamina characters from swooping in and getting better use out of Magicka sets than Magicka characters themselves.

    The values could be set at something like:

    Magicka Damage Sets: 3500 Spell Damage

    Stamina Damage Sets: 4500 Weapon Damage

    And then do a big old 50% Battle Spirit damage nerf on top of all of it.

    That way, proc sets are unchanged for casual PvE'ers while being massively buffed for PvE min-max'ers. PvP'ers will attempt to min-max but the 50% Battle Spirit nerf will put a strong damper on how hard their procs will hit.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Your option
    Capped (individually decided amounts per set) with low requirements to get there
    Edited by Waffennacht on May 13, 2021 10:19PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • grumpy_pants95
    max(stamina_mod+weapon_damage, magica_mod+spell_damage)
    divnyi wrote: »
    I seriously think that current PTS formula is far from ideal.

    Let's try to grasp what they tried to achieve:
    1. Further pushing magica as "healer class" -- (reality) only removes proc sets from mages in PvE, forcing them to go for pure crit stat.
    2. Further pushing stamina as "damage burst" -- (reality) stamina is already outperforming magica as burst damage
    3. Remove HP-tanks stacking procs for free damage in PvP -- (reality) this is not working! You can stack HP independently from weapon damage.

    I, personally, would like solution with scaling from max stamina / max magica. And here is why:
    1. It reduces strength of stam in PvP compared to mag, which is nice -- (downside) is the same propagates to PvE :/
    2. You can lower the bar for achieving current values, since going stats means you don't stack HP. It solves HP tanks with procs problem completely
    3. Stamina/magica is buffed by horn. Nobody horns in PvP. Which means PvE will use those sets more effectively.

    Anyway, what do you thing about scalings?

    I honestly think the scaling of sets should be a max percentage of the stats.. e.g., 30% of your max magicka + 30% of your spell damage will count towards the damage output by your proc sets/same for stam/same for tanks - this way both mag and stam can be balanced (ish) because mag can stack more magicka than stam can stack stamina - but stam can stack more weapon damage than mag stacks spell damage / and with tanks 30% max health + 15% of each res = the power of the proc sets..

    PVP wise, i don't think proc sets should be a thing in pvp. I also think that PVP should have it's own usable PVP gear that can be used ONLY while PVP/ same with PVE - PVE sets should be used ONLY for PVE and not in PVP.

  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)
    Capped (individually decided amounts per set) with low requirements to get there

    Wouldn't that just remove it out of PvE? I believe procs wasn't useful there before except for monster helms.
    and with tanks 30% max health + 15% of each res

    Ruining procset damage for tanks was original intention behind this thing.
    As much as I otherwise like the increasing trend toward hybridization, it might be a good idea to un-hybridize proc set scaling. Then you could tune the scaling to values that are appropriate for both specs at casual PvE levels while also disallowing Stamina characters from swooping in and getting better use out of Magicka sets than Magicka characters themselves.

    The values could be set at something like:

    Magicka Damage Sets: 3500 Spell Damage

    Stamina Damage Sets: 4500 Weapon Damage

    And then do a big old 50% Battle Spirit damage nerf on top of all of it.

    That way, proc sets are unchanged for casual PvE'ers while being massively buffed for PvE min-max'ers. PvP'ers will attempt to min-max but the 50% Battle Spirit nerf will put a strong damper on how hard their procs will hit.

    Like both ideas, except for the implementation.

    If it would be unhybridized, it would make more sense to scale with mag_mod+spell_damage and stam_mod+weapon_damage.

    And I agree with battle spirit nerf, but not 50%. 70% would be okay to make it balanced.
  • Anyron
    Anyron
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    Your option
    both max mag scaling and max resource pool scaling from zero to be capped at live dmg/healing/resource as max stat
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    Your option
    PROCS MUST NOT SCALE !!!

    AND IF IT IS A PROBLEM WITH TANKS BUILDS JUST DO

    MANA/10+ SPD (or) STAMINA/10+WPD >6000(7000) - to get full power of set.

    And the same power as now if this value is more than that - that is ALL !!!

    Veteshrain destro is cleanseble now. It was the most problem.
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    Your option
    AND DO NOT CHANGE MALACATH RING !!!

    SORCS ARE OVERPOWERED WITH SUCH CHANGES !!!

    AND DO NOT CHANGE HP REGEN !!!

    DO NOT NERF FOOD AND COMPANIONS !!!
  • Jazraena
    Jazraena
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    No scaling [current live]
    The underlying analysis is already flawed.

    Proc Sets are a PvP Problem. In PvE they're barely used in buff-optimized groups, but very popular in less optimal situations... where they are now being nerfed to the ground.

    No amount of general scaling is going to make people happy. They need to take a step back and reassess their approach.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Your option
    Current scaling values are "ok" - but there needs to be a cap. Because curently some proc sets have higher tooltip than a DPS burst abilities, like Grim Focus or Snipe or Curse (on same build).
  • karekiz
    karekiz
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    Your option
    Remove them from the game. No Skill in procs.
  • Jazraena
    Jazraena
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    No scaling [current live]
    karekiz wrote: »
    Remove them from the game. No Skill in procs.

    This mindset never quite made sense to me. No skill in procs? Is there skill in getting an arbitrary amount of weapon damage added to your other damage sources that I'm missing? In fact, since we're on the topic, how is having to land, say, a Flaming Blossom proc at range on a moving enemy 'skillless', but having all your usual attacks just deal more damage an example of skillful gameplay? I mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily difficult, but the comparison is rather absurd, isn't it?

    PvP isn't all there is to ESO.
  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
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    Just reduce proc set damage via battle spirit
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)
    AyaDark wrote: »
    PROCS MUST NOT SCALE !!!

    ...

    MANA/10+ SPD (or) STAMINA/10+WPD >6000(7000) - to get full power of set.

    That is scaling
  • kalunte
    kalunte
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    Your option
    my opinion is that dmg procset are just enlighting the base game core issue over stats themselves.

    fix them stats and then scale what needs to scale with the approriate stat.

    right now it's just a hell of a mess because everything does everything and things like passives are messing it only more (thinking about magelight or mage's guild passive for exemple, which could become crap..)

    good luck, we are like 5years from a logical game to play to.
  • remosito
    remosito
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    Your option
    Separate pve and pvp via battlespirit and buff most of them for pve without scaling.

    Afaik...the pve ceiling doesn't use proc sets so there is ample room to buff those. Floor likes proc sets so buffing them would bring floor up.
    ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)
  • Nebula_DooM
    Nebula_DooM
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    max(stamina_mod+weapon_damage, magica_mod+spell_damage)
    The issue that they still haven't addressed is how easy it is for stam characters to get high weapon damage and how easy it is for mag characters to get max mag and spell pen. I honestly reckon they should treat proc sets like abilities and scale them based on the common 10.5 ratio between max stats and weapon/spell damage unless specified. I'm also leaning towards nerfing every single proc set in the game to reintroduce proc sets that can utilize critical chance and damage since it is an essential aspect of the game. Especially since crit is so hard to obtain unless you actually build for it I think this is a good change.

    I know this isn't a popular opinion but Zenimax is pretty much treating proc sets like abilities by removing the chances on a set actually proccing and now by scaling it with stats. When proc sets were able to crit pre homestead patch, that was at a time where the systems in place for eso were so easily abused with the old-old cp trees (maximum percentages of 25% mighty/elemental expert or critical damage were actually obtainable with the 561 cp cap in One Tamriel patch for reference). An actual fix for proc set abusing is firstly making proc sets scale with a maximum of 2 different stats so no one goes and stacks a single stat and experiences no diminishing returns on stat stacking. Secondly I'd nerf all proc sets by a maximum of 40% to reintroduce crittable proc sets since critting is an important aspect of the game and is now, harder to obtain than it was a few years ago when people in heavy armor who weren't using savagery buffs were hitting 34% critical chance with ease. Also Heavy armor was actually overpowered as hell a few years ago with the broken constitution passive with black rose.

    (Edited because nerfing proc sets by 40% so they can be crittable is actually significant damage loss. Anything below 40% is fine as 40% is a maximum value of what proc sets imo should be nerfed since anything higher would kill proc sets in the game. Minimum value would be roughly 20-25%, due to average critical damage. When we talk about critical chance and damage in comparison to proc sets that can't crit we have to consider the average critical damage which is Critical chance*Critical damage to make sound adjustments. So in conclusion, anything below 40% is fine, 40% is imo, is the maximum at what proc sets should get nerfed by
    Edited by Nebula_DooM on May 17, 2021 2:17AM
  • katorga
    katorga
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    No scaling [current live]
    tbh, procs with non-scaling damage on live where not a problem until they added other things, and changed the conditions on how they proc'd.

    Scaling is going to be even worse.
  • ajkb78
    ajkb78
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    Your option
    I think both damage and healing sets should scale from a modification of the current skill scaling:

    Proc set effectiveness = base effect * (max resource + (10.5 * max damage) + (10.5 * max resource recovery))

    where max resource is the higher out of max stamina and max magicka, max damage is the highest out of spell damage and weapon damage and max resource recovery is the highest out of magicka recovery and stamina recovery.

    That would minimise the difference in effectiveness between magicka and stamina toons (magicka finds it easier to stack max resources, stamina finds it easier to stack max damage) and would also minimise the difference in effectiveness when used on full damage races or sustain races, and it would also help to make it harder to maximise the set effectiveness and still stack max health - you can stack health and damage independently, but you can't stack all 3 of health and damage and max resource independently.

    Failing that, just the current skill damage scaling (so as above but without the max resource recovery factor). That would further disadvantage Bretons and Redguards but would still prevent independent stacking of health and damage and be more effective at deterring proc tanks.
  • GrimTheReaper45
    GrimTheReaper45
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    As much as I otherwise like the increasing trend toward hybridization, it might be a good idea to un-hybridize proc set scaling. Then you could tune the scaling to values that are appropriate for both specs at casual PvE levels while also disallowing Stamina characters from swooping in and getting better use out of Magicka sets than Magicka characters themselves.

    The values could be set at something like:

    Magicka Damage Sets: 3500 Spell Damage

    Stamina Damage Sets: 4500 Weapon Damage

    And then do a big old 50% Battle Spirit damage nerf on top of all of it.

    That way, proc sets are unchanged for casual PvE'ers while being massively buffed for PvE min-max'ers. PvP'ers will attempt to min-max but the 50% Battle Spirit nerf will put a strong damper on how hard their procs will hit.

    This is a good solution. Values are a bit low for both. Mag should need around 4.5k, Stam should need around 5.5-6k. Additionally there needs to be a cap on how high this can benefit from scaling. After 7-8k the set shouldnt benefit anymore from additional stats. It is possible to get 10k+ plus if your building for it. Not having a cap on this is just going to cause problems.
  • Marto
    Marto
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    No scaling [current live]
    ZOS said they introduced Proc set scaling because they don't want players getting "free" stuff.

    Glass cannon builds that are suddenly very sturdy. Selfish builds that are suddenly able to heal themselves. Tank builds that suddenly cause a spike of damage... etc.
    All without downsides that can lead to interesting decisions when gearing up your character. Or interesting counterplay on the part of your opponent.


    However...
    I think one of the most appealing things about proc sets is that they help round out builds. Seen from another angle, all the things I mentioned are good things. They provide players with an extra opportunity to act, on top of their 10 slotted skills and 2 ultimate abilities.

    They can also bring life into abilities, strategies or playstyles that are usually not viable. Like, for example, someone using dot skills in PVP instead of burst skills, for the chance of procing a unique buff. Or a class that doesn't normally have strong CC, speed, or recovery buffs, now getting a new effect they would have never gotten access to before.

    If you think about it, this is also why Mythic items exist. They provide players with unique, interesting effects that can either strengthen an aspect of your character, or offset some weakness in your build.

    My proposal would be this:
    1. Make proc sets mythic quality. Players can now only equip 1 proc set at any moment.
    2. Introduce downsides to some proc sets. Example: Molag Kena.
    3. Greatly reduce the amount of proc sets in the game.
    4. Most proc sets should be activity-related loot items, like Monster Helmets or Arena/Trial Weapons.
    "According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"
  • Iriidius
    Iriidius
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    No scaling [current live]
    Proc sets shouldnt scale with stats because stat sets also dont scale with stats. This will make it much more difficult to create a viable build. They should just nerf overperforming procc sets by 25%(zaan, crimson, vateshraan). Proc sets were no problem before greymoor and stonethorn although they didnt scale of stats.
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Iriidius wrote: »
    Proc sets shouldnt scale with stats because stat sets also dont scale with stats. This will make it much more difficult to create a viable build. They should just nerf overperforming procc sets by 25%(zaan, crimson, vateshraan). Proc sets were no problem before greymoor and stonethorn although they didnt scale of stats.

    Despite what many wanted, giving procs scaling wasn't just about nerfing them, it was about bringing them into line with skills. Essentially it would be impossible to permanently balance proc sets vs stat sets if procs had a fixed value, since skills do not have a fixed value, so proc sets were often either blatantly underpowered or blatantly overpowered, depending on the proc and the patch. If all procs are underpowered on live with the current scaling, it can be adjusted in a blanket way like they've done in PTS, rather than waiting for individual proc sets to get attention like we've had to in the past.

    Poisons and enchantments still go without scaling, but they only need to be balanced against each other.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    Your option
    Iriidius wrote: »
    Proc sets shouldnt scale with stats because stat sets also dont scale with stats. This will make it much more difficult to create a viable build. They should just nerf overperforming procc sets by 25%(zaan, crimson, vateshraan). Proc sets were no problem before greymoor and stonethorn although they didnt scale of stats.

    Despite what many wanted, giving procs scaling wasn't just about nerfing them, it was about bringing them into line with skills. Essentially it would be impossible to permanently balance proc sets vs stat sets if procs had a fixed value, since skills do not have a fixed value, so proc sets were often either blatantly underpowered or blatantly overpowered, depending on the proc and the patch. If all procs are underpowered on live with the current scaling, it can be adjusted in a blanket way like they've done in PTS, rather than waiting for individual proc sets to get attention like we've had to in the past.

    Poisons and enchantments still go without scaling, but they only need to be balanced against each other.

    I'm not sure that I agree with this.

    It would be true if all proc sets followed identical damage standards (e.g. does X damage over Y seconds, single-GCD burst damage is limited to Z damage) but they don't.

    All this change does is further bake in the discrepancies in power between the various proc sets since allowing sets to scale does nothing at all to address their preexisting imbalances.
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Iriidius wrote: »
    Proc sets shouldnt scale with stats because stat sets also dont scale with stats. This will make it much more difficult to create a viable build. They should just nerf overperforming procc sets by 25%(zaan, crimson, vateshraan). Proc sets were no problem before greymoor and stonethorn although they didnt scale of stats.

    Despite what many wanted, giving procs scaling wasn't just about nerfing them, it was about bringing them into line with skills. Essentially it would be impossible to permanently balance proc sets vs stat sets if procs had a fixed value, since skills do not have a fixed value, so proc sets were often either blatantly underpowered or blatantly overpowered, depending on the proc and the patch. If all procs are underpowered on live with the current scaling, it can be adjusted in a blanket way like they've done in PTS, rather than waiting for individual proc sets to get attention like we've had to in the past.

    Poisons and enchantments still go without scaling, but they only need to be balanced against each other.

    I'm not sure that I agree with this.

    It would be true if all proc sets followed identical damage standards (e.g. does X damage over Y seconds, single-GCD burst damage is limited to Z damage) but they don't.

    All this change does is further bake in the discrepancies in power between the various proc sets since allowing sets to scale does nothing at all to address their preexisting imbalances.

    Scaling does nothing to resolve "inter-proc balance" as you describe, but don't you think it's the only way to bring proc sets and stats sets in line with each other? From my view until procs got scaling, it would be an impossible and endless game of whack-a-mole trying to keep every proc in line compared to a stat set, without making the proc so weak it was useless in PvP. It seems over the years proc sets often fell into two categories: either nobody has even heard of it, or everybody runs it for one patch before it's nerfed.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
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    Your option
    It all started with malacath. Remove that instead of trying to balance the game around it.
  • ealdwin
    ealdwin
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    max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)
    While different ideas are being floated, here's one more potential suggestion (even though ZOS probably won't consider it):

    1. Determine the upper and lower bounds of damage that a proc set can/should do
    For instance, consider a set with a similar proc condition to Way of Fire: When you deal damage with a weapon ability, you do X Damage, this can occur every 2 seconds.

    Looking at reasonable values, perhaps the lowest damage this set should do is 1000 Damage and the highest damage this set should do is 5000 Damage (numbers are just for the purpose of demonstration, not reflective of actual balanced values).

    2. Base the scaling of the damage based on the allocation of Attribute points.
    For instance, using the example proc, 0 points allocated into Mag/Stam would result in the lower bound damage, 1000 Damage, while 64 points into Mag/Stam would result in the upper bound damage, 5000 Damage.

    By using the lower-upper bound system, the damage could be adjusted on the lower end so as to not be as punishing to PVE tanks that use procs for damage when participating in Overland, but not enable too much damage on high-health builds in PVP. It could also allow for the increase of damage of procs, while maintaining them to a capped damage value that still requires investment.

    2. b. Alternatively, do the same range, but with Max Mag/Stam.
    Same principle, but the requirement for the upper bound would be set to a reasonably attainable level of Magicka or Stamina. Still requires investment, but has a bit more freedom in how to get that investment.

    TLDR: No infinite scaling, define a range of damage with lower and upper bounds, and determine the required investment to get to that upper bound.
    Edited by ealdwin on May 19, 2021 3:02PM
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