Dungeon Queue there has GOT to be a better way?

kmfdm · May 2021

As already somewhat mentioned herein, the issue is that we only have 4 man groups. The ratio of tanks vs healers vs damage dealers is basically 1:1:2 respectively. Other MMORPGs have 5 or even 6-man groups, which makes the ratio much more favorable for damage dealers. I am not saying this is the only cause, but it seems to be the main one. If you take a random sample of 100 players, in ESO, 25 of them must be tanks, 25 healers and 50 damage dealers to get instant queues. With 5-man groups the ratio is 20 tanks, 20 healers and 60 damage dealers, and in 6-man groups its only 16 tanks, 16 healers, and 67 damage dealers.

I dont know much work it would require to change all dungeons into 5 man fights, but it would certainly help the queues and would align the dungeon T:H:DD ratio with the trial one.

Agenericname · May 2021

kmfdm wrote: »

As already somewhat mentioned herein, the issue is that we only have 4 man groups. The ratio of tanks vs healers vs damage dealers is basically 1:1:2 respectively. Other MMORPGs have 5 or even 6-man groups, which makes the ratio much more favorable for damage dealers. I am not saying this is the only cause, but it seems to be the main one. If you take a random sample of 100 players, in ESO, 25 of them must be tanks, 25 healers and 50 damage dealers to get instant queues. With 5-man groups the ratio is 20 tanks, 20 healers and 60 damage dealers, and in 6-man groups its only 16 tanks, 16 healers, and 67 damage dealers.

I dont know much work it would require to change all dungeons into 5 man fights, but it would certainly help the queues and would align the dungeon T:H:DD ratio with the trial one.

It would require a good bit of work. Many of ESO's dungeons are tuned specifically for 4-person groups.

In some base game dungeons you can see it, but not nearly as many as the DLCs. CoH2 the last boss before the portal requires the group spread out to avoid overlapping circles. Adding more players with the existing mechanics would insure that players died to those mechanics.

Other dungeons that have a proximity based mechanics that would make additional players a liability; the indrik fight in MoS, collosus fight in FH, final boss in FH (pillars of nirn mechanic?) and abyss in UG, just to name a few.

Vet SCP HM, there are 4 syngeries and each synergy can be taken by one player. MHK sigil phases in non-HM and HM have 4 applicable sigils, one for each group member, FV skeever phases, and poison phase in FL's Thurvokun fight. Those are just what I can think of off the top of my head.

More to the actual problem, if you did a random sample of 100 players, I'd be surprised if the number of tanks, or number of players who do in fact have a tank, is 25 or less. The disparity is between the number in game and the number in the queue.

Part of that is because tanks simply dont want to queue, for various reasons; low dps DDs, toxic players, nerfs, whatever, it doesnt matter, they dont queue. But when we look at the RND and transmute/XP farm, many players will run multiple characters per day through. A player with 6 characters, for example, can churn out 6 randoms pretty quick. And in all likelihood, they probably do have a tank, but it becomes far less likely that all 6 are tanks, or that even 25% of their characters are.

I have 10 characters, for example, of those 10 only a small number get played, but 2 are tanks. If I run all 10 through the RND I am putting 2 tanks into queue, but Im also putting 8 DDs into queue, assuming that I queue for the appropriate role. Im putting 4 times more DDs into the queue than I am tanks. The pool of tanks in queue is now more diluted.

Something like the OP's suggestion of letting any 4 people queue for a RND would IMO be fine. It would soak up some of the excess DDs and improve the odds for those who actually wanted a tank in their group.

Xebov · May 2021

kmfdm wrote: »

As already somewhat mentioned herein, the issue is that we only have 4 man groups. The ratio of tanks vs healers vs damage dealers is basically 1:1:2 respectively. Other MMORPGs have 5 or even 6-man groups, which makes the ratio much more favorable for damage dealers. I am not saying this is the only cause, but it seems to be the main one. If you take a random sample of 100 players, in ESO, 25 of them must be tanks, 25 healers and 50 damage dealers to get instant queues. With 5-man groups the ratio is 20 tanks, 20 healers and 60 damage dealers, and in 6-man groups its only 16 tanks, 16 healers, and 67 damage dealers.

I dont know much work it would require to change all dungeons into 5 man fights, but it would certainly help the queues and would align the dungeon T:H:DD ratio with the trial one.

Thats only telling half of the story. For Dungeon groups the Ratio T:H:DD is 1:1:2. For vet trials however its usually 2:2:8, while normal trials can go as far as 1:1:10. That creates a huge imbalance in the system. If you had a perfect world for the dungeon queues you would actually end up with 50% of the Tanks and Healers getting no spot in vet trials and 80% not getting a spot in normal trials. This is because vet trials use up 4 groups worth of DDs, but only 2 worth of Tanks and Healers. For normal trials you can get so far that you use 1 group worth of tanks and healers, but 5 worth of DDs. That leads to odd situations where you easily can find dungeon groups but sometimes cant find trial groups because there are not enought on one end and to many on the other.

While changing group sizes might help a bit you cant realy do it. You have Dungeons made for 4 players and trials made for 12. Some mechanics and situations depend on that.

The other problem, that i already pointed out, is that DDs are the only Role that can be used within the whole PvE game while Tanls and Healers are more or less forced to get a DD spec for non Dungeon/Trial content. There is no support to ease this in any way by the devs and only some support by the community.
The Devs have no build in support for dual specs, this results in higher skillpoint and CP requirements. Content like Solo Arenas are build very DD centric with no viable way for support roles to complete it. The Compagnions that could help solve this problem to some degree are limited and way to weak.
On the community side many dont understand the extra efford needed and when complaining usual answer are "you can respec" or "you can use another character for this" when complaining about the situation, while at the same time ppl wonder why we have a tank shortage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2021

Would not be opposed to a specific random normal queue that had no role requirements, especially if you kept DLC out of it. You dont need a tank or healer for any non dlc random normal.

zaria · May 2021

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Blame the fact that tanking and healing are two roles that:

1. Aren't really enjoyable
2. Aren't really needed the more experienced players get (thank hard DPS checks, one shots, etc.)
3. Aren't good outside a group
4. Require more gear sets than damage roles
5. Aren't really that good in PvP
6. Ultimately aren't profitable, esp. when paired with terrible damage dealers

The sad reality is that healing and tanking is a role that isn't emphasized properly by the game developers at this stage in the game and it won't be for some time. The game emphasizes doing damage too much, and thus the end result is that players emphasize it too.

Any magic DD can heal, now if you heal hard vet trials you probably have an setup who is not optimal for DD but no issues in dungeons but guess you could still pull impressive numbers in an dungeon.
Had lots of fun on my magplar, she is nice in vet dlc dungeons as she can go from being an strong dd with multiple group heals and buffs to an high dps healer, obvious dps goes down if you need to heal a lot

But yes i rarely pugs.

ForeverJenn · May 2021

I have 6 tanks. One for each class. I refuse to pug Vet content but I will do norms for transmute stone farming. A lot of groups are terrible at dps. I don't know if this is because ppl don't know how to play or what. I have been in groups where the group dps is 9k, with me, a legit tank doing about 1/3. There are too many werewolves that have no idea what they're doing. I can do a lot more dps than most norm pugs on a tank build if I slot a spammable.

Ppl always complain that tanks get instant queues. Sure but we have to wait through six ready checks cause dps is never ready. Then they get mad when we rush ahead cause we actually know how to dps and can get it done quickly. Sorry, Fungal Grotto I isn't that exciting the 10 millionth time you do it. A knowledged tank and a healer can clear a normal dungeon. We're already wearing sets that benefit DPS and most randos still can't play.

You can't be surprised that queuing as a tank is less than appealing.

Edit: And no, This wasn't directed to OP but a response to the multiple threads of whining in the down threads.

Anonx31st · May 2021

The fix for the que times in the LFG tool is obviously tanking incentives like getting additional rewards for tanking a vet dungeon daily, etc. I created a post about this already and most people didn't want tanks to get any additional incentives. If ZOS can't make tanking more desirable then people won't play it.

ThePianist · May 2021

ajkb78 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

OK I've played healers and tanks and those are great almost instant queue but playing a dps and queuing just plain sucks. Waiting 20 to 30 minutes to get a group, or waiting that long and the system just unques you for no reason(this has happened a few times in the last week btw), or zoning and just as you zone you get the queue invite only to have it gone and you have to requeue again after you zone and so on and so on.

Something is broken with the group finder anyway. Last night i queued for Stone Garden normal. I waited about 40 minutes and nothing. I finally just soloed a normal dungeon and requed and within ten minutes had the invite. Then of all things my daily random ended up being Stone Garden right after that which was about a 20 minute wait.

Just tossing out some ideas here but anything is better than this as a DPS. (And yes I could play my healer or tank but this is my new toon). How about normal dungeon option with no healer or tank, just take your chances. I can pretty much solo most of those anyway except those that require a group like Direfrost due to mechanics etc. Or even two man option? Make the dungeons a little harder in that case. Not the best options I'll admit but this is getting OLD fast. I was semi fine with it until the bug started happening where you get unqueued for no reason at all just a BUG!.

RANT OVER now back to regularly scheduled programming.

It's because there is a severe shortage of players who play as tanks, even more so on this game than is usual for an MMORPG. They need to stop nerfing tanks, and start taking their problems seriously (like pets blocking their view so they can't watch for animations to block etc.). This game neglects tanks and actively works to make them secondary to DPS characters, so it really isn't any wonder when people stop playing them. Maybe when the precious DPS characters can't get into queues they will finally start taking this issue seriously and start paying some needed attention to tanks except when it comes to nerfing them so DPS classes can kill the more easily. Because that's usually the only time they pay any attention to them.

So keep threads like this coming.

Since when did tanks get nerfed? Tanking since CP 2.0 is as buffed as it's ever been. Yeah, pets can be a bit annoying but hardly game breaking is it...

The queue system is just supply and demand though. If you want to go on the most popular ride at Disney World, you'll be queuing for 4 hours sometimes. If you want to go on the Carousel of Progress you get on in 5 minutes. Same with DPSing, everyone wants to do it so expect a longer queue; tanks (and healers) are in constant demand so they get a nice short queue. (For what it's worth, I play both DPS and tank, and I love the Carousel of Progress just as much as the new rides.)

I don't think having wildcard queues is a good idea. It might work with some groups in some dungeons but it will significantly increase the chances of a really bad experience. I mean, it's not as if people aren't fake roling anyway but at least at the moment they hopefully feel a bit of shame about it XD

If you queue for a random that gives the shortest queue anyway (as well as the transmutes).

Since when did tanks get nerfed? You must be joking.

Xebov · May 2021

Anonx31st wrote: »

The fix for the que times in the LFG tool is obviously tanking incentives like getting additional rewards for tanking a vet dungeon daily, etc. I created a post about this already and most people didn't want tanks to get any additional incentives. If ZOS can't make tanking more desirable then people won't play it.

A part often overlooked is the remainder of the game. Tanks and Healers get the short end of the stick in any non Dungeon/Trial activities as everything else is very DD centric. Solo Arenas have no valid way to be done with a Tank. This requires us to maintain additional Skills, CP and Gear since we have to have DD gear. This extra work is a break for many players. Additionally DDs in the forums that think that Tanks have to go through this doesnt help either.

PigofSteel · May 2021

Well i took my old tank out and got instant dungeons but boy o boy the dps was so low that i thought i do more damage with my heavy attacks, and im talking about people with like 800CP +...

Xebov · May 2021

PigofSteel wrote: »

Well i took my old tank out and got instant dungeons but boy o boy the dps was so low that i thought i do more damage with my heavy attacks, and im talking about people with like 800CP +...

Welcome to my world of suffering.

Kesstryl · May 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

Less play people tank or healer.

Because for most people, they're boring roles. You can get by on them without doing much if you want. People think tanking is taunt and hold block, which is boring. Not enough people have a rotation which helps the group in some way.

I enjoy tanking, especially with how I've set up a saptank which also does damage.

But most people just like doing DPS.

Don't know how you fix it to be honest. If you force tanking/healing to require move rotations and needing more input, it might just put other players off entirely.

I actually enjoy tanking and healing more than DPS, and that's just because I enjoy supporting my groups. However, elitist pugs suck, and so do all the nerfs to tanks, so I've not bothered pugging unless I'm on a low level toon I'm trying to level with the daily random xp.

Edited to add that I actually don't enjoy high APM because I have carpal tunnel so playing support roles helps me to participate without killing my hands. Not everyone wants to be a button mashing masochist. Also good tanks do have rotations that help the group through class based buff and debuff skills they can throw in. Most can be used while holding block. I don't find that boring.

Kesstryl · May 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Additionally, separate PvE/PvP balance. Unkillable tank in dungeon or trial = Awesome! Unkillable tank in Cyro = BS class, NERF!!!

This goes hand in hand with no longer catering to DPS races. As long as mechanics can be bypassed by sufficient damage, tanks and healers will always be less desirable.

Unkillable tanks in PVE isn't awesome.

It makes tanking stupidly boring and too easy.

That's why I don't think nerfs to heavy armour/health based health/mitigation a bad thing.

You have to be more on your toes to tank, which makes the role more engaging.

I disagree. New tanks, and progressing tanks are hit hard by these nerfs. I was a progressing tank and I gave up and left the game. I lurk here to see if any new patches will fix the problems that have been introduced in PvE tanking, but each patch just slams tanks even more.

Kesstryl · May 2021

ThePianist wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

OK I've played healers and tanks and those are great almost instant queue but playing a dps and queuing just plain sucks. Waiting 20 to 30 minutes to get a group, or waiting that long and the system just unques you for no reason(this has happened a few times in the last week btw), or zoning and just as you zone you get the queue invite only to have it gone and you have to requeue again after you zone and so on and so on.

Something is broken with the group finder anyway. Last night i queued for Stone Garden normal. I waited about 40 minutes and nothing. I finally just soloed a normal dungeon and requed and within ten minutes had the invite. Then of all things my daily random ended up being Stone Garden right after that which was about a 20 minute wait.

Just tossing out some ideas here but anything is better than this as a DPS. (And yes I could play my healer or tank but this is my new toon). How about normal dungeon option with no healer or tank, just take your chances. I can pretty much solo most of those anyway except those that require a group like Direfrost due to mechanics etc. Or even two man option? Make the dungeons a little harder in that case. Not the best options I'll admit but this is getting OLD fast. I was semi fine with it until the bug started happening where you get unqueued for no reason at all just a BUG!.

RANT OVER now back to regularly scheduled programming.

It's because there is a severe shortage of players who play as tanks, even more so on this game than is usual for an MMORPG. They need to stop nerfing tanks, and start taking their problems seriously (like pets blocking their view so they can't watch for animations to block etc.). This game neglects tanks and actively works to make them secondary to DPS characters, so it really isn't any wonder when people stop playing them. Maybe when the precious DPS characters can't get into queues they will finally start taking this issue seriously and start paying some needed attention to tanks except when it comes to nerfing them so DPS classes can kill the more easily. Because that's usually the only time they pay any attention to them.

So keep threads like this coming.

Since when did tanks get nerfed? Tanking since CP 2.0 is as buffed as it's ever been. Yeah, pets can be a bit annoying but hardly game breaking is it...

The queue system is just supply and demand though. If you want to go on the most popular ride at Disney World, you'll be queuing for 4 hours sometimes. If you want to go on the Carousel of Progress you get on in 5 minutes. Same with DPSing, everyone wants to do it so expect a longer queue; tanks (and healers) are in constant demand so they get a nice short queue. (For what it's worth, I play both DPS and tank, and I love the Carousel of Progress just as much as the new rides.)

I don't think having wildcard queues is a good idea. It might work with some groups in some dungeons but it will significantly increase the chances of a really bad experience. I mean, it's not as if people aren't fake roling anyway but at least at the moment they hopefully feel a bit of shame about it XD

If you queue for a random that gives the shortest queue anyway (as well as the transmutes).

Since when did tanks get nerfed? You must be joking.

You must not have played since Beta. Let me see, nerf to stam regen while blocking, recent nerf to roll dodge in heavy armor, nerfs to mitigation sets, nerf to Nord mitigation, nerfs to skill based shields, nerfs to self healing, nerfs to sustain, recent CP rework, and now more nerfs coming on PTS which will make it impossible for solo questing on a tank build because proc set damage will no longer work effectively, there's more, I just don't feel like listing all of them.

Amottica · May 2021

Odovacar wrote: »

if you're queued for more than 15 minutes requeue and one should pop-up soon. Also, if you queue for a specific dungeon expect your times to be longer. Big tip: find some guildies or even zone chat players to give you a hand...get a few in the group and the remaining roles should fill up quicker for you.

Good luck OP!

This is good advice for pretty much any MMORPG I have played. Especially for DPS roles as players seem to prefer to play them leading to longer queue times when they queue solo. That does not mean the system is broken. It just means the better way is to get some guildies to run with.

Thechuckage · May 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

Additionally, separate PvE/PvP balance. Unkillable tank in dungeon or trial = Awesome! Unkillable tank in Cyro = BS class, NERF!!!

This goes hand in hand with no longer catering to DPS races. As long as mechanics can be bypassed by sufficient damage, tanks and healers will always be less desirable.

Unkillable tanks in PVE isn't awesome.

It makes tanking stupidly boring and too easy.

That's why I don't think nerfs to heavy armour/health based health/mitigation a bad thing.

You have to be more on your toes to tank, which makes the role more engaging.

If I'm tanking correctly, I'm darn near unkillable. Because I know my class and the fight; locking down adds, keeping running debuffs/buffs, giving the rest of the team clear space to fight in. Keeping up situational awareness and generally making everything run smoother. There is no need to hamstring a tank with more penalties.

Here's an idea for making changing the dynamic. Only one set gives a buff to the other players on your team. Instead of tank or heals being just a buffbot, make DD carry some of the load. Slow the DPS race down a bit, give supports some love and keep everyone relevant. It should go without saying that this should be PvE only because lord knows, the balance between PvE and PvP is never going to be good.

Veinblood1965 · May 2021

Just an update. I have gotten so tired of the issues with getting kicked out of the queue I dusted off my dk tank and have been playing him for a few days. As a tank of course I get instant queue times but there have been several times where someone else didn't accept the queue invite and instead of just requeing I got "You have been removed from the queue because someone declined the invite" or some words to that effect. This is what has happened on my dps toon which after 20 to 30 minute wait times is NOT fun.

ForeverJenn · May 2021

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

Just an update. I have gotten so tired of the issues with getting kicked out of the queue I dusted off my dk tank and have been playing him for a few days. As a tank of course I get instant queue times but there have been several times where someone else didn't accept the queue invite and instead of just requeing I got "You have been removed from the queue because someone declined the invite" or some words to that effect. This is what has happened on my dps toon which after 20 to 30 minute wait times is NOT fun.

I always imagine some poor dps as a skeleton sitting in his computer chair when one doesn't accept. Poor guy waited in the queue as long as he could.