All this number-tossing in sets make PVE suffer for the sake of PVP

TheDarkRuler

7.02 patch logs are out for PTS and its the same old story. PVE damage/heal/tank numbers are being reduced for making sure that PVP is "balanced".
As a core PVE-raid player I am extremely annoyed by the constant kick in the guts towards PVE for the sake of PVE.

A simple and good reason was brought out already MANY TIMES in the forums.
Include a -X% damage from proc effects into the Battle Spirit ability that is obtained when entering PVE zones.
That way procs are being reduced only where it matters and not globally.

Been grinding my ass for good sets recently only to see half of them being useless (again). So annoying.

Chilly-McFreeze

In all your rightfull anger, at least try to use PvP or PvE correctly.

*hint: title, battle spirit

divnyi

As PvP player, I agree. No need to balance PvP and PvE by the same measures when PvP definition of damage and PvE definition of damage are different sorts of damages.

xylena_lazarow

Another PvPer here agreeing the modes should be separated, and Battle Spirit used more aggressively.

TequilaFire

I am for separating balancing as well, but that doesn't mean there will be no PvE nerfs at all.

Anyron

I dont get it. Its being nerfed because of pvp? I dont think something can be nerfed because npcs go here to cry about how is it op right?

How about it was nerfed because it needed nerfing? Even for pve, you can't justify have broken skills/sets to oneshot boss.. Its going to die in the end, why just not make it faster?

Sanctum74

Meanwhile my pvp crit was nerfed because of pve...

Kidgangster101

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

7.02 patch logs are out for PTS and its the same old story. PVE damage/heal/tank numbers are being reduced for making sure that PVP is "balanced".
As a core PVE-raid player I am extremely annoyed by the constant kick in the guts towards PVE for the sake of PVE.

A simple and good reason was brought out already MANY TIMES in the forums.
Include a -X% damage from proc effects into the Battle Spirit ability that is obtained when entering PVE zones.
That way procs are being reduced only where it matters and not globally.

Been grinding my ass for good sets recently only to see half of them being useless (again). So annoying.

Or they could do PvE and pvp gear have them disabled if used in the wrong zone. Done and easy to balance on all ends.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

Let's be honest, everything was out performing everywhere and everything was being exploded when possible.

In PvE, we were stacking crit for days, and expected tank and healer to do all of the itemizing. And if stamina was even invited to the party, it would just be relequin stacks everywhere.
In PvP you were throwing on malacath, pumping up hp, standing still and letting crimson carry you to victory. Or you threw on malacath, stacked damage sets and acted like you were God's gift to earth for not wearing a procs.

Snowstrider

Lets just make sets and abilities work different in PVP and PVE to avoid this mess

Sahidom

I agree with the concept for separation, however, balancing - balance used loosely - should be scaled and leveled in a PVP forum; Battle Spirit has a good implementation for fine tuning PVP but it should not be the go-to method.

This does have an impact PVE, however, the PVE metas are more resilient to changes. In PVE, skills are more factored into the equation than some of the proc sets; although these sets have a role too. This is where Battle Spirit would be better used to scale damage down while preserving the PVE;

I say that because the fine-tuning of skill performance or damage/heal proc sets could be done here versus using the Battle Spirit as the be-all-end-all adjustment to segregate PVE and PVP since there's too much symbiotic relations between the two.

That symbiotic relation defines the character performance in all venues of game play.

Canned_Apples

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

Xebov

While modifying the battle spirit would be a short term solution i think it would be much better to have seperate numerical values on every skill/gear set for PvE and PvP. No matter how you turn it, Battle Spirit is a "one size fits all" solution that over nerf or under nerfs some gear.

SidraWillowsky

I think both modes suffer differently because of each other.

PvE suffers from nerfs that stem from issues in PvP. If something gets nerfed to fairness in PvP, PvE typically feels some collateral damage.

PvP suffers from buffs that were designed to help PvE. If something previously weak is buffed to the point of being worthwhile in PvE, chances are it just became obnoxious in PvP.

The problem is that the two issues seem to be inextricably linked... We're stuck in some hellish death spiral where things get nerfed into uselessness, then later get buffed into obnoxiousness. Rinse, repeat.

After seeing this go on for years and years, I do think that the only solutions that will actually SOLVE any of this involve either more adjustments to Battle Spirit, or balancing PvE and PvP separately.

Unfortunately, I'm not holding out hope that this happens.

karekiz

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Another PvPer here agreeing the modes should be separated, and Battle Spirit used more aggressively.

NO!

We MUST not use a system introduced to specifically to balance a system, we need to make a brand NEW system on top of all these systems to balance the system instead!

Grimlok_S

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheet WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

E: Spelling is hard.

Starlock

Grimlok_S wrote: »

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheed WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

You aren't talking to regular players, then.

You know - the ones who are not power gamers or min/maxers.

The ones who don't have whatever this relequen set is or whatever this bloodthirsty thing is. The ones who play for fun, maybe don't know a ton about game mechanics, probably don't check the forums, or who have priorities other than stacking numbers and instead are making characters, not "builds." Talk to the ones who get a significant amount of their damage from proc sets precisely because they don't scale and don't require min/maxing to be effective. Folks embracing "build" diversity because they can and the system has previously allowed for it in no small part because of proc sets. Talk to the people who don't break 4k weapon or spell damage (which is a lot of us). Talk to the solo players who just like doing world bosses on their own or normal dungeons on their own. We are getting very, very screwed with these changes.

Also, these are the same folks who disproportionately benefit from the extra power of CP, which has also been gutted into the ground. Looks like this is going live, and I won't be playing the game until it reverses. I don't even want to look at how horrible my proc set tooltips look, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to fix them. I'll either be unable to complete content I used to be able to do or it'll be much more mind-numbingly tedious and un-fun. Either way, I won't have it and am taking my time and money elsewhere. This is easily the most misguided "balancing" decision in the history of the game because it amplifies - not reduces - the difference between competitive types and everyone else.

Grimlok_S

Starlock wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheed WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

You aren't talking to regular players, then.

You know - the ones who are not power gamers or min/maxers.

The ones who don't have whatever this relequen set is or whatever this bloodthirsty thing is. The ones who play for fun, maybe don't know a ton about game mechanics, probably don't check the forums, or who have priorities other than stacking numbers and instead are making characters, not "builds." Talk to the ones who get a significant amount of their damage from proc sets precisely because they don't scale and don't require min/maxing to be effective. [/qu Folks embracing "build" diversity because they can and the system has previously allowed for it in no small part because of proc sets. Talk to the people who don't break 4k weapon or spell damage (which is a lot of us). Talk to the solo players who just like doing world bosses on their own or normal dungeons on their own. We are getting very, very screwed with these changes.

Also, these are the same folks who disproportionately benefit from the extra power of CP, which has also been gutted into the ground. Looks like this is going live, and I won't be playing the game until it reverses. I don't even want to look at how horrible my proc set tooltips look, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to fix them. I'll either be unable to complete content I used to be able to do or it'll be much more mind-numbingly tedious and un-fun. Either way, I won't have it and am taking my time and money elsewhere. This is easily the most misguided "balancing" decision in the history of the game because it amplifies - not reduces - the difference between competitive types and everyone else.

I would consider myself a "regular player". I'm not min-maxed, as pointed out by my tank race on a DD, nevermind choosing to play stam in PvE.

I don't PvE often, I'm slowly checking off Vet 4-man Hardmodes and the odd Trifecta attempt. My spec wouldn't even be considered for Trials content outside of farm runs. I have the means to min max a mag spec for Trials type score runs, but I don't find that content overly appealing.

I can't tell if you're referring to yourself or not, but I'll address procs in PvE not requiring min-maxing to be effective - They aren't effective. Procs don't crit, and crit is king.

If you haven't felt hindered up to this point running procs in PvE, that won't change going forward. Just know that in both the live patch and the PTS, you're leaving damage potential on the table by choosing to run procs.

If your PvE is overland mobs/questing and normal dungeons, nothing changes for you.

Vaoh

It’s just ZOS tbh.

Just about everyone agrees proc set balance needs to be different in PvP vs PvE. Battle Spirit is there for a reason.

Canned_Apples

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

As much as the PvP vs PvE arguments feed me, @Suna_Ye_Sunnabe probably made the most valid point here. PvP players did not make crimson do the damage it did, PvE players did not make crit damage as strong as it was. ZoS designed the game, ZoS balance the game, and they followed the numbers. If there is a change you don't like it is because ZoS saw something they didn't think was performing as intended, and they changed it.

karekiz

Grimlok_S wrote: »

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheet WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

E: Spelling is hard.

Weapon damage isn't really the issue. Its Spell Damage mostly. Weapon dmg is boosted by armor passives (14% IIRC).

Anyron

karekiz wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheet WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

E: Spelling is hard.

Weapon damage isn't really the issue. Its Spell Damage mostly. Weapon dmg is boosted by armor passives (14% IIRC).

Just waits for another "but you have penetration" comments
But penetration cannot be multiplied by armor passives, brutality, and fg skills

WoppaBoem

While this is true, and the developers dont communicate very well. The whole game combat system we are in today has been very much the result of power creep. Good groups steam rolling almost if not all PVE content.

The so called nerfs for PVP while true are also aimed at PVE. Overland Combat is boring, non DLC dungeons VET get solo-ed. But never anyone from PVE will cry for nerfs why would you. This however does not mean developer take notice of their game data and adjust based on overpower PVE situations. Monster don't call for nerfs but people will. Does not mean developer base all their decision on load voices on the forums.

RandomKodiak

Everyone except end game PvE Magicka builds and Stam heavy PvP builds is getting gutted. All casual play, stam in PvE Vet content, Magicka in PvP. Only the top people in the respective play styles are not getting hit, everyone else be damned it seems.

Grimlok_S

karekiz wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

TIL PvE damage dealers don't stack damage?

I see a lot of crying about nerfs to PvE but I can't see how this isn't a massive buff to procs in PvE.. Keep in mind that they weren't BiS before and won't be after the patch either.

I only have 7k WD on my live PvP loadout.

While in PvE I hit 9.7k statsheet WD on a NORD with 3 Bloodthirsty jewels running 5pc Relequen... Since we know procs scale with Bloodthirsty, I'll be well over 10k effective WD for rele's 5pc.

I do not understand those complaining that their DD build is gutted and won't be able to complete content again.

E: Spelling is hard.

Weapon damage isn't really the issue. Its Spell Damage mostly. Weapon dmg is boosted by armor passives (14% IIRC).

You're not wrong. Playing with PvE sets, the highest I'm getting a mag proc build without cheesing 500 Balorg stacks is 8400 SD. (Caluurions + Siroria + Zaan) But at <40% Crit, it's just bad. Going Apprentice to Thief gets around 47% Crit at 7800 SD.

Edit: I actually forgot about group finder buff, so this should read ~9000+ SD in 4man dungeon content.

On one hand, you're full-penetrating PvE mobs, something stam struggles to do without a specific tank build supporting them. On the other hand, you give up a TON of crit to hit that SD number. Reinforcing what I said earlier, the vast majority of proc sets are highly inefficient for PvE DPS.

I landed on a more reasonable 7k SD @ 60% Crit - Caluu + MS + Zaan, if you insist on running a proc.

Zaan is probably going to be the only one worth running. Crit is just too valuable.

So, it's absolutely possible to exceed live tooltip values for mag procs in PvE, but they aren't any more worth running than they are now.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

It would not.

echo2omega

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

It would not.

If I have a sword of flaming fire. I would expect that it functions the same in PVE and PVE.

When you start 'balancing' PVE and PVE separately then you have situations where the sword of flaming fire works one way in PVE, but has a very different function in PVP. This leads to a poor player experience.

Excelsus

echo2omega wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

It would not.

If I have a sword of flaming fire. I would expect that it functions the same in PVE and PVE.

When you start 'balancing' PVE and PVE separately then you have situations where the sword of flaming fire works one way in PVE, but has a very different function in PVP. This leads to a poor player experience.

I think even a casual could process that their sword of flaming fire does 10 damage in pve and 8 damage in pvp. Ive seen some dumb pugs but lets not put them down any further. The we cant seperate cuz complicated argument is thin and condenscending, not to mention most players heavily value one side over the other and already need to heavily change builds. Take a vSS build into a bg and see how that goes. I think its far more frustrating to new players that sword of flaming fire is useless in pve and one shotting people in pvp.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

echo2omega wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

It would not.

If I have a sword of flaming fire. I would expect that it functions the same in PVE and PVE.

When you start 'balancing' PVE and PVE separately then you have situations where the sword of flaming fire works one way in PVE, but has a very different function in PVP. This leads to a poor player experience.

That's an irrelevant comparison. I could go into detail, but let it suffice to say it's entirely possible and beyond that necessary. It's been done before many times over.