All this number-tossing in sets make PVE suffer for the sake of PVP

Integral1900

I don’t care why they are doing it, the thing that annoys me is it is probably the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game! Basically what the studio has done is make it so that unless you are a min max, your practical choices are so limited now that you may as well just use whatever boring, tedious, yawn inducing, floaty combat build the YouTube brigade are foisting on us this week.

Grimlok_S

Integral1900 wrote: »

I don’t care why they are doing it, the thing that annoys me is it is probably the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game! Basically what the studio has done is make it so that unless you are a min max, your practical choices are so limited now that you may as well just use whatever boring, tedious, yawn inducing, floaty combat build the YouTube brigade are foisting on us this week.

How?

Procs got buffed. Not buffed enough to be worth running, but buffed nonetheless. How does that reduce build diversity?

Jazraena

Because more things exist than PvP and buff optimized trial groups. Most people don't enjoy the luxury of easily reaching 6574 weapon damage, let alone spell damage.

MacCait

Anyron wrote: »

I dont get it. Its being nerfed because of pvp? I dont think something can be nerfed because npcs go here to cry about how is it op right?

How about it was nerfed because it needed nerfing? Even for pve, you can't justify have broken skills/sets to oneshot boss.. Its going to die in the end, why just not make it faster?

LOL which boss or bosses can be one shot exactly?

MacCait

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

I don’t care why they are doing it, the thing that annoys me is it is probably the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game! Basically what the studio has done is make it so that unless you are a min max, your practical choices are so limited now that you may as well just use whatever boring, tedious, yawn inducing, floaty combat build the YouTube brigade are foisting on us this week.

How?

Procs got buffed. Not buffed enough to be worth running, but buffed nonetheless. How does that reduce build diversity?

Build diversity is reduced because you can no longer use certain proc sets with other proc sets. Well you can, but they will hit like a wet sock and are not worth using. Its only a buff if you combine sets within a certain category, ie health sets, wpn/spell dmg sets etc. But combining these is no longer viable, hence it reduces build diversity, which affects the PVE side of the game when the issue is more the PvP affect of proc sets

Bjond

MacCait wrote: »

Build diversity is reduced

This is a VERY good thing. Diversity is a serious impediment to balance. You can end up with edge-case builds that need specific counters only present in other edge-cases. The game stops being Play v Play and starts being Build v Build or worse, Grind v Grind.

Balance is paramount with Skill or Grind next by personal taste. I favor skill over grind, but I know many prefer to have their gear fight for them.

Why Skill over Grind? I had a top-geared Assassin in Aion. Typical 1v1: zone in, other player looks at my gear, sits down, waits for me to kill them. Maybe 1 in 5 would try to fight; 3~5s later, they're dead. This was not even remotely fun for either of us. I had 10x as much fun on my struggling alt.

BTW, Skill > Grind has it's own serious issue, too: go too far and you eliminate the "progress" part of an MMO. GW2 is amazing for Skill over Grind and has incredibly fun and balanced PVP. But .. I got bored and left due to no progress. There is no easy answer for a developer, just try to stay in the grey area where both matter.

Jazraena

Bjond wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Build diversity is reduced

This is a VERY good thing. Diversity is a serious impediment to balance. You can end up with edge-case builds that need specific counters only present in other edge-cases. The game stops being Play v Play and starts being Build v Build or worse, Grind v Grind.

On the contrary, this is an exemplary poor development for a game advertising flexibility in playstyle and offering a massive amount of horizontal gear options instead of just one class set and ever increasing gear levels.

Stuff being tweaked for balance is fine. Wildly swinging nerfs, buffs and completely trashing said build diversity even outside the minuscule trial and PvP population wouldn't even be fine if their fix would work. That it apparently doesn't just adds insult to injury.

MacCait

Bjond wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Build diversity is reduced

This is a VERY good thing. Diversity is a serious impediment to balance. You can end up with edge-case builds that need specific counters only present in other edge-cases. The game stops being Play v Play and starts being Build v Build or worse, Grind v Grind.

Balance is paramount with Skill or Grind next by personal taste. I favor skill over grind, but I know many prefer to have their gear fight for them.

Why Skill over Grind? I had a top-geared Assassin in Aion. Typical 1v1: zone in, other player looks at my gear, sits down, waits for me to kill them. Maybe 1 in 5 would try to fight; 3~5s later, they're dead. This was not even remotely fun for either of us. I had 10x as much fun on my struggling alt.

BTW, Skill > Grind has it's own serious issue, too: go too far and you eliminate the "progress" part of an MMO. GW2 is amazing for Skill over Grind and has incredibly fun and balanced PVP. But .. I got bored and left due to no progress. There is no easy answer for a developer, just try to stay in the grey area where both matter.

For PvP yes fine... but for PvE NO. Build diversity is FUN for PvE.

Isn't that the point of this thread? The thread is about PvE suffering because of PvP changes!

But yh I like PvP too and agree for PvP, but no not for PvE. Let PvE just be about fun and creative build diversity and experience. This continual nerfing of PvE becuase of PvP balancing is tiresome, especially when PvP is at a minority to the amount of players that either PvE, or do both

echo2omega

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

echo2omega wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Let’s not forget all the nerfs to abilites pvp players had to endure because of pve players.
Nerfing core abilities that affect gameplay is far worse than nerfing cheese sets that you shouldnt be using outside of open world (where their damage doesn’t even matter.)

The thread topic is separation of pvp and pve balance. In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is, only that both sides are being hurt. It's time to put an end to it, Zos.

That would require two separate games.

It would not.

If I have a sword of flaming fire. I would expect that it functions the same in PVE and PVE.

When you start 'balancing' PVE and PVE separately then you have situations where the sword of flaming fire works one way in PVE, but has a very different function in PVP. This leads to a poor player experience.

That's an irrelevant comparison. I could go into detail, but let it suffice to say it's entirely possible and beyond that necessary. It's been done before many times over.

It is a completely relevant comparison. And I can go into detail

Grimlok_S

MacCait wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

I don’t care why they are doing it, the thing that annoys me is it is probably the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game! Basically what the studio has done is make it so that unless you are a min max, your practical choices are so limited now that you may as well just use whatever boring, tedious, yawn inducing, floaty combat build the YouTube brigade are foisting on us this week.

How?

Procs got buffed. Not buffed enough to be worth running, but buffed nonetheless. How does that reduce build diversity?

Build diversity is reduced because you can no longer use certain proc sets with other proc sets. Well you can, but they will hit like a wet sock and are not worth using. Its only a buff if you combine sets within a certain category, ie health sets, wpn/spell dmg sets etc. But combining these is no longer viable, hence it reduces build diversity, which affects the PVE side of the game when the issue is more the PvP affect of proc sets

You are already shooting yourself in the foot if you are combining proc sets in a PvE DPS role, so nothing really changes.

They're bad on live, they'll be bad in Blackwood. Does that stop anyone from trying to run these sets on live? Not at all.

validifyedneb18_ESO

It has always been the case. There is a strict divide between sets that are intended for PVP and those intended for PVE, and its made for a very stale meta for a long time.

Most dungeon sets have a over-time stacking bonus that drops quickly if you dont keep proccing it every 4 seconds. This is because in PVP its impossible to say, light attack every 4 seconds without fail (relequens), and every time you fail to you that your stacks reset.

This allows them to make sets that are objectively more powerful than others, without having those sets be OP in pvp.

The sad thing is it also means that the massive amount of fun and interesting builds we get to play around with in PVP simply dont do enough damage in PVE. Sure you CAN do a normal mode trial with 25k dps, but its not fair to the rest of your guild if you do that (I used to do that...)

validifyedneb18_ESO

if a non-PVE focussed set gets too good at PVE (thus introducing an alt-meta) it usually gets nerfed because if a PVP mechanic set is good in PVE it usually means its overperforming in PVP.

A damage modifier would be cool, just an extra tooltip on each set (PVP modifier: 80%) - ie all damage or stats given by this set are 20% lower in all calculations related to taking or receiving damage from other players.

validifyedneb18_ESO

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Include a -X% damage from proc effects into the Battle Spirit ability that is obtained when entering PVE zones.

This alone does not fix the issue. Sure, it fixes it if you think that proc sets are the main issue, but actually the type of proc matters a lot too. Thats why I suggest a per-set tooltip - maybe even just for the 5pc specific bonus.

I know WOW does this (possibly GW2 too?), they usually dont even bother telling players, just every ability in the game does completely different damage in PVP (ie in PVE a feral druid might have an insanly high damage bite that could 1shot in PVP, but when you actually get into PVP your bite is so-so and your bleeds do a much larger portion of your damage)

francesinhalover

pvp and pve should be separated.

unfurtunaly it will never happen. and pve players have to adapt.

slt101880b14_ESO

francesinhalover wrote: »

pvp and pve should be separated.

unfurtunaly it will never happen. and pve players have to adapt.

Why can't PvP players adapt for once. Why does PvE have to suffer the brunt of the damage because someone whines about PvP?

Sanctum74

slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

pvp and pve should be separated.

unfurtunaly it will never happen. and pve players have to adapt.

Why can't PvP players adapt for once. Why does PvE have to suffer the brunt of the damage because someone whines about PvP?

For once? Pvp players have to adapt every patch, much more so than pve players. Our classes, skills, gear, traits, etc are always changing so we are forced to adapt.

In pve I can still run 5 year old gear and complete the majority of the content, in pvp if you don’t adapt every patch then you just get wrecked.

xylena_lazarow

slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »

Why can't PvP players adapt for once.

You mean like we did when they nerfed crit for PvE balance? Or how they gutted PvP magblade for its sins in PvE? One of the coolest open world PvP dk abilities, the AoE disorient Eruption, was deleted to make way for a PvE dps ability. And then there's RP nonsense like targetable pets that we still must "adapt" to...

Sanctum74 wrote: »

In pve I can still run 5 year old gear and complete the majority of the content, in pvp if you don’t adapt every patch then you just get wrecked.

For real, still running Briar/VO and Ebon/Torug successfully in all personally relevant PvE content.

ResidentContrarian

slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

pvp and pve should be separated.

unfurtunaly it will never happen. and pve players have to adapt.

Why can't PvP players adapt for once. Why does PvE have to suffer the brunt of the damage because someone whines about PvP?

I am pretty sure PvP players have done a lot of that. Especially anyone playing a mag or hybrid build that is not a warden, necro, or sorc.

In PvE when you get nerfed, just change your build and you gain some or all of the effectiveness because they just so happen to release or rework sets that manage to return that power back. How much other stats or flexibility you lose doesn't really matter because PvE is unchanging for the most part, and when content is changed it certainly isn't buffing enemies most of the time.

PvP though?

That power you lose you almost never gain back, and the balance changes are exposed for everyone to see there. Like right now in no proc Cyrodiil mag DK's can't either [1] reach the sustain of a necro or warden, [2] the damage output, [3] the defense, [4] require casting more skills to approach DPS of those two classes cutting sustain and damage, or a combination of all of these depending on build.

That same problem is mirrored in PvE, except it's masked by trial group buffs and the fact that the class is extinct there

That is only one example. It's not as if both sides are mutually exclusive like the forums want you to believe...

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@ResidentContrarian
I feel the opposite. My builds for PvP have remained virtually unchanged for the past 3 years. As far as I see it, there are just more viable options available, and now you can either focus on procs or stacking damage. I feel like PvE has a far more inflexible meta, that has in many ways changed to make entire builds irrelevant.

Jazraena

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

In PvE when you get nerfed, just change your build and you gain some or all of the effectiveness because they just so happen to release or rework sets that manage to return that power back. How much other stats or flexibility you lose doesn't really matter because PvE is unchanging for the most part, and when content is changed it certainly isn't buffing enemies most of the time.

The ignorance in that statement is astounding.

Optimized trial groups aren't the entirety of PvE. If it were, nobody would care about Proc Set scaling in PvE.