Why not have an central player store and guild stores.

ganzaeso

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

Isn't this a direct quote from that one live stream where they said they were not going to add this.

JKorr

ganzaeso wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

Isn't this a direct quote from that one live stream where they said they were not going to add this.

Yes. Its why he started it " ZOS on central store".

Minyassa

They like their annoying inconvenient system because it's unique in its annoying inconvenience and they are committed to keeping it that way so it doesn't lose its uniqueness. Nobody else has managed to annoy people in exactly that same way, it's a point of pride. And some people even like it! Some people like ketchup on mac and cheese, too. Life is a mystery.

Stokowski

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

[snip]

To be fair: at the time of launch, the Guild Trader system was an intriguing solution to the potential problems a centralised trading system could suffer from. But it's now just an embarrassing hold-over that ZOS stubbornly refuses to address. Apparently it's better to be unique than properly functional. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Edited to remove Bashing]

[snip]

[Edited to remove Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

PizzaCat82

An auction house or centralized trader would be better, at least for buyers. No need to check tons of cities just to find something. And no, making it easier to find would not make it more rare.

Anything that doesn't require guild membership would be better for new players. No worrying about angering the guild master. No worrying about paying dues. No worrying about getting scammed or harassed by bad guilds.

Other options? No, clogging up zone chat does not count. Using external web pages or addons doesn't either.

Some of these options would be too difficult to implement correctly. Considering the ongoing issues with our inventories, this seems the most valid reason, honestly.

Some would anger the "traders" who think simple commerce is a game which has to have losers for them to be winners. They'll find something to be upset about regardless of how the game is. I do not value their input on a system that clearly benefits them and them alone.

Maybe the devs said they'll never change it. Maybe they never will. That doesn't make the current system perfect, and last I checked, the forums were exactly the place to offer criticism and suggestions. Which we will continue to do, as long as they let us.

kargen27

"Actually this is not more server intensive. You're acting like there would be a single database for each zone."

Because that is exactly what they are asking for. One location that shows everything. A global market whether it be game wide or zone wide would need to track every trader in the game/zone to be up to date. Meaning a single database.

LalMirchi

Auction House === No thank you!

I like my Guilds and their traders.

Xebov

There is a contsnt debate about Auction House (including global search) vs isolated Guild Traders.

Its important that everyone understands that both systems have their pro and cons and that are essentially opposite to each other and that none of these systems is perfect.

Guild Traders keep prices for more common items more stable by limiting price undercutting. Players usually undercut each otehr to sell their stuff, but with Guild Traders the number of players compeeting this way is limited. They also prevent more rare items to be market cornered and keep them available at decent prices. This is due the fact that market dominance becomes hard to establish with so many traders.

Auction Houses on the other hand are more convenient. They have the downside that more common items usually drop in price constantly because more players compete agaionst each other for sales. It also becomes easy to corner the market on certian items and maintain a market dominance due to the easy accessibility. Both issues can be seen in MMOs with huge markets like EVE.

The choice is just what downsides you want to have. There is no way in having both systems joined and just keep the positive aspects.

Alurria

I would rather travel all over yes really I would. I go to zones I am not actively questing in or poking around in. I find good bargains too. I have been trying to aquire furnishing plans and some of them are so obviously over priced especially in the more popular trading areas. I know they are using the add on to hold these prices artificially high. I truly think the add on is not a good thing. Price setting is terrible. I can't keep gold in my pocket because I buy blueprints or furnishings. I think a centralized auction is a bad idea. Because then it will be controlled by a very few rich people nope nada I will continue to seek out the traders who are out of the way and buy their bargains.

cptqrk

After watching WoW's economy get destroyed by folks buying low and selling SUPER high, no thanks.

New players (if they even exist in WoW anymore) can't even afford a decent sized bag from two expacs previous due to inflation and market manipulation.

I run TTC in the background but have yet to use it's site for searching out deals, I'm okay with it.

Can console folks not access the web site? Is that the issue?

JKorr

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

An auction house or centralized trader would be better, at least for buyers. No need to check tons of cities just to find something. And no, making it easier to find would not make it more rare.

Anything that doesn't require guild membership would be better for new players. No worrying about angering the guild master. No worrying about paying dues. No worrying about getting scammed or harassed by bad guilds.

Other options? No, clogging up zone chat does not count. Using external web pages or addons doesn't either.

Some of these options would be too difficult to implement correctly. Considering the ongoing issues with our inventories, this seems the most valid reason, honestly.

Some would anger the "traders" who think simple commerce is a game which has to have losers for them to be winners. They'll find something to be upset about regardless of how the game is. I do not value their input on a system that clearly benefits them and them alone.

Maybe the devs said they'll never change it. Maybe they never will. That doesn't make the current system perfect, and last I checked, the forums were exactly the place to offer criticism and suggestions. Which we will continue to do, as long as they let us.

You seem to run into really crap guilds. Why would people have problems with dues? Why would people put up with harassment or scams? I don't accept the "only the super elite trading guilds charging hundreds of thousands for dues sell stuff". No one has to sign a legally binding "I can never leave this guild on pain of instant death" contract.

I say that about the guilds because no guild I've ever joined has charged dues. My trading guild doesn't charge dues, or have sales requirements either. My social guilds charge no dues, and usually get a trader. If I wanted to, I could fill 30 slots in each of 4 guilds to sell stuff. Maybe its just a carryover from early play, maybe its just me, but I think the auction house would cause more issues than it solves. People did play, buy, sell, and trade before TTC existed.

Xebov

cptqrk wrote: »

Can console folks not access the web site? Is that the issue?

TTC requires players to provide the guild listings. If you visit a trader and search for things they will automatically be uploaded to the site. The problem for console folks is no addons no upload.

PizzaCat82

JKorr wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

An auction house or centralized trader would be better, at least for buyers. No need to check tons of cities just to find something. And no, making it easier to find would not make it more rare.

Anything that doesn't require guild membership would be better for new players. No worrying about angering the guild master. No worrying about paying dues. No worrying about getting scammed or harassed by bad guilds.

Other options? No, clogging up zone chat does not count. Using external web pages or addons doesn't either.

Some of these options would be too difficult to implement correctly. Considering the ongoing issues with our inventories, this seems the most valid reason, honestly.

Some would anger the "traders" who think simple commerce is a game which has to have losers for them to be winners. They'll find something to be upset about regardless of how the game is. I do not value their input on a system that clearly benefits them and them alone.

Maybe the devs said they'll never change it. Maybe they never will. That doesn't make the current system perfect, and last I checked, the forums were exactly the place to offer criticism and suggestions. Which we will continue to do, as long as they let us.

You seem to run into really crap guilds. Why would people have problems with dues? Why would people put up with harassment or scams? I don't accept the "only the super elite trading guilds charging hundreds of thousands for dues sell stuff". No one has to sign a legally binding "I can never leave this guild on pain of instant death" contract.

I say that about the guilds because no guild I've ever joined has charged dues. My trading guild doesn't charge dues, or have sales requirements either. My social guilds charge no dues, and usually get a trader. If I wanted to, I could fill 30 slots in each of 4 guilds to sell stuff. Maybe its just a carryover from early play, maybe its just me, but I think the auction house would cause more issues than it solves. People did play, buy, sell, and trade before TTC existed.

Console players have no way of tracking sales so they charge dues. Some don't, but anyone with a decent spot needs donations or dues. People who do donations eventually stop getting traders and then stop being a guild. I'm sure there's a magical guild out there that's donation only that gets great spots and has 500 active players but I've yet to find one that didn't get burned out from dealing with the bids each week from guilds that did have dues and tons of active sellers.

I've had multiple players in my trading guild worried about guild dues because they didn't play enough for the 15k or 20k a week. It actually takes a while if you're just starting out. Should new players join top trading guilds? Probably not. But nobody tells them that. They want to sell their stuff just the same as everyone else. Zone chat is a cesspool, and lowballers are constantly scouring for anyone who seems like they don't know what they have.

Would the auction house cause issues? Maybe. Maybe it'd only cause issues for PC players, I don't know. But I disagree on causing more problems. With the right gold sink distributed to every player, guilds can go back to being groups of people helping others to do content. Our trading guild doesn't use the chat except to do raffles and occassionally ask a price check. It's not helping new players, or solo players looking for tips, pvp, or trials.

Jeremy

Aertew wrote: »

There could be a central player store that shows all items listed. Both in the store and guild stores while keeping guild stores.

Player guild stores could still make profits from people selling and are more convient than travelling to one of the capitals for simple stuff like mats. However if you really need a specific item having a central player house makes it easier.

The idea of this is to make it easier for players to buy stuff and not make it a hassle, especially for console players who don't have the TTC addon. While also allowing guild stores to not only be useful but also profitable.

There is no good reason not to, especially since addons already do this like you pointed out. It's the people who don't use or have access to these addons who get _______. It's one of the reasons I don't like addons, because it encourages developers to rely on them instead of implement needed features.

majulook

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

PizzaCat82

majulook wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

Why should they lock a thread that's not spamming or violating the forum rules? Any other types of threads you'd like to see locked?

Elsonso

majulook wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

ZOS freely lets us discuss things about the game. If they limited it to only things they were going to do, they would have to close a lot of threads. Most of them that discuss changes, actually.

majulook

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

Why should they lock a thread that's not spamming or violating the forum rules? Any other types of threads you'd like to see locked?

Yes, All the threads that keep bringing up things that ZOS has categorically stated that they are not going to do. Why? Well to me it seems pointless to have them, and gives a false hope to those that want those things that are not going to happen.

Jeremy

majulook wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

Why should they lock a thread that's not spamming or violating the forum rules? Any other types of threads you'd like to see locked?

Yes, All the threads that keep bringing up things that ZOS has categorically stated that they are not going to do. Why? Well to me it seems pointless to have them, and gives a false hope to those that want those things that are not going to happen.

They also said they would never abandon their subscription-only model. And look what happen.

So pointless or not, I don' t see a need to lock them. I just ignore threads that don't interest me. So for those who are tired of discussions on this topic, I would recommend simply doing that.

Elsonso

majulook wrote: »

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS on central store (aka Auction House):

"Auction House. There's been some questions about whether that's something we're ever going to consider. It's not something that we plan on considering. While global auction houses would be convenient, they are not ideal for the economy of the game, so it's not something that we're planning to do."

This statement from ZOS, should be enough for the forum moderators to just lock all of the Auction House threads.

Why should they lock a thread that's not spamming or violating the forum rules? Any other types of threads you'd like to see locked?

Yes, All the threads that keep bringing up things that ZOS has categorically stated that they are not going to do. Why? Well to me it seems pointless to have them, and gives a false hope to those that want those things that are not going to happen.

The number of things that ZOS has "categorically stated that they are not going to do" can pretty much be counted up on one hand. They very rarely just say "No", as they did with global auction house. There are a lot more things that they are probably not going to do. They put in sufficient "waffle words" in any statements, like adding "at this time." If they say "at this time" then we can footnote that statement as "we reserve the right to change our mind without notice". It might still be a "no" but it is not a firm negative.

AlienMagi

JKorr wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS, for lots of very good reasons, will never have a Global Auction House. Cratering the economy is the primary one.

And, the real argument for a GHA is really people don't want to expend the effort to shop.

Rare items should take time to find, and time is money. Spend the time, or spend the money. Cant have it both ways.

Also, I for one would like to have Tamriel Trade Center disabled.

The economy is a bad reason. Real world economy for lower prices and creating competition allows me to buy whatever I want from my home. I can check several different websites and prices for the item I want looking for the best listing. Or if I am feeling particularly lazy go to one giant website with multiple merchants that have a great number of prices with customer reviews.

The only thing not having a global market in game benefits is a small number of traders rather than benefiting every player so everyone can compete and easily purchase what they want. This is over 20 years worth of real world data backing up this statement.

Are you really comparing real world "leave the house use a vehicle travel real distances shopping" to "move mouse two centimeters click with index finger use a wayshrine in game shopping"?

Want the lowest prices of all? Farm what you want yourself. No gold cost at all. Nothing stops every player from traveling to the merchants to check prices. Everyone can " compete and easily purchase what they want". If someone is interested in "competing" traveling to the next trader kiosk shouldn't be an impassable barrier. If the "lazy" factor outweighs the effort of checking the main hub traders, then indulge the lazy and spend a bit more gold.

Some people dont have time to spend hours shopping in a video game. The lack of a central guild listing is nothing more than a huge unnecessary time sink.

Amottica

Nastassiya wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

A central listing that needs to track every trader would be server intensive as it would need to constantly update.

People complain now that outside of the major towns guild trader locations are inconvenient. Having a global listing in capital cities would not make traders more convenient it would make them even less convenient and less relevant.

There does need to be some quality of life changes made to how guild traders work but a central system is not the answer. For a lot of players the system we have in place is their end game. What you are proposing takes that away from them.

Actually this is not more server intensive. You're acting like there would be a single database for each zone. This would be more expensive to run. If you go look in any regions capital, you only see a handful of people at the guild stores. They are not pushing many queries towards the database, seeking items. Most likely each vendor is just running a filtered to the same database. These are not resource expensive transactions.

SELECT * FROM Vvardenfel
WHERE Vendor='Atazha'
AND Item='consumable'
ORDER BY Price;

I do not know how exactly ZOS designed their database but likely not using freeware or open source in a production environment because if there is a major problem they would want to invoke on call support (example: Oracle). This is why some companies would prefer to go with Redhat Enterprise Linux instead of CentOS (different story now). Knowing that you can invoke emergency support can cost less when your business is down and you need it up now.

I think they were correct based on the suggestion made by the OP. The OP is suggesting a search would look through all listings on all guild vendors in all zones. So it should require significantly more resources than searching a single guild store. I am not a database expert but it seems to be simple math. Increase the data 100 fold and it will take 100x the effort. I do not know how many guild traders there are but this gets the idea across.

Xebov

PizzaCat82 wrote: »

Would the auction house cause issues? Maybe. Maybe it'd only cause issues for PC players, I don't know. But I disagree on causing more problems.

It would solve issues and create others. Like i wrote, no system is perfect and every system has its own set of downsides. Iam certain that, if we would get an auction house, we would get threads about the issues it creates. The problem is that players expect all possible problems to be solved even if its impossible.

majulook wrote: »

Well to me it seems pointless to have them, and gives a false hope to those that want those things that are not going to happen.

The game constantly changes and such discussions provide feedback about how ppl feel. Thats important. In the past we had discussions about other topics that where a no for longer times and later where introduced.

AlienMagi wrote: »

Some people dont have time to spend hours shopping in a video game. The lack of a central guild listing is nothing more than a huge unnecessary time sink.

I played EVE online for some time. There you have these big area centric markets where thousends of players buy and sell stuff over a centralized market. With the amount of players there you had to deal with constant price undercuttings because ppl want to sell their stuff. Thats the main downside of an auction house.

coop500

I'd like to point out that TTC can be used for console if you go to the site itself for shopping.

https://tamrieltradecentre.com/

Nastassiya

Amottica wrote: »

I think they were correct based on the suggestion made by the OP. The OP is suggesting a search would look through all listings on all guild vendors in all zones. So it should require significantly more resources than searching a single guild store. I am not a database expert but it seems to be simple math. Increase the data 100 fold and it will take 100x the effort. I do not know how many guild traders there are but this gets the idea across.

It would be inefficient for a there to be a single database for each guild store. Its very likely every guild vendor is just a single table that contains each list, all wrapped inside a single database. I am not a database administrator, just a DevOps engineer, but I do interface directly with an airline database daily. Obviously there will be different databases for different components of the game, but if you look at only the workload from the guild vendors, it's very small. Joining tables, creating views, inserting, updating, deleting entries, etc., is simple and requires very little resources.

If you want to learn about databases, it's simple, free, and pays nicely

https://www.sqlservertutorial.net/
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Database_Administrator_(DBA)/Salary

Aertew

AlienMagi wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS, for lots of very good reasons, will never have a Global Auction House. Cratering the economy is the primary one.

And, the real argument for a GHA is really people don't want to expend the effort to shop.

Rare items should take time to find, and time is money. Spend the time, or spend the money. Cant have it both ways.

Also, I for one would like to have Tamriel Trade Center disabled.

The economy is a bad reason. Real world economy for lower prices and creating competition allows me to buy whatever I want from my home. I can check several different websites and prices for the item I want looking for the best listing. Or if I am feeling particularly lazy go to one giant website with multiple merchants that have a great number of prices with customer reviews.

The only thing not having a global market in game benefits is a small number of traders rather than benefiting every player so everyone can compete and easily purchase what they want. This is over 20 years worth of real world data backing up this statement.

Are you really comparing real world "leave the house use a vehicle travel real distances shopping" to "move mouse two centimeters click with index finger use a wayshrine in game shopping"?

Want the lowest prices of all? Farm what you want yourself. No gold cost at all. Nothing stops every player from traveling to the merchants to check prices. Everyone can " compete and easily purchase what they want". If someone is interested in "competing" traveling to the next trader kiosk shouldn't be an impassable barrier. If the "lazy" factor outweighs the effort of checking the main hub traders, then indulge the lazy and spend a bit more gold.

Some people dont have time to spend hours shopping in a video game. The lack of a central guild listing is nothing more than a huge unnecessary time sink.

This was my idea. If you like shopping in-game and want to immerse yourself. Cool. But I don't and I think it's a waste of time. Creating a auction house and keeping guild stores could satisfy both types of players. At least that's the idea.

Xebov

Aertew wrote: »

AlienMagi wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS, for lots of very good reasons, will never have a Global Auction House. Cratering the economy is the primary one.

And, the real argument for a GHA is really people don't want to expend the effort to shop.

Rare items should take time to find, and time is money. Spend the time, or spend the money. Cant have it both ways.

Also, I for one would like to have Tamriel Trade Center disabled.

The economy is a bad reason. Real world economy for lower prices and creating competition allows me to buy whatever I want from my home. I can check several different websites and prices for the item I want looking for the best listing. Or if I am feeling particularly lazy go to one giant website with multiple merchants that have a great number of prices with customer reviews.

The only thing not having a global market in game benefits is a small number of traders rather than benefiting every player so everyone can compete and easily purchase what they want. This is over 20 years worth of real world data backing up this statement.

Are you really comparing real world "leave the house use a vehicle travel real distances shopping" to "move mouse two centimeters click with index finger use a wayshrine in game shopping"?

Want the lowest prices of all? Farm what you want yourself. No gold cost at all. Nothing stops every player from traveling to the merchants to check prices. Everyone can " compete and easily purchase what they want". If someone is interested in "competing" traveling to the next trader kiosk shouldn't be an impassable barrier. If the "lazy" factor outweighs the effort of checking the main hub traders, then indulge the lazy and spend a bit more gold.

Some people dont have time to spend hours shopping in a video game. The lack of a central guild listing is nothing more than a huge unnecessary time sink.

This was my idea. If you like shopping in-game and want to immerse yourself. Cool. But I don't and I think it's a waste of time. Creating a auction house and keeping guild stores could satisfy both types of players. At least that's the idea.

And you would get the downsides of an auction house. Common items would drop in price while a higher number of players goes into direct price competition and the rich players would easily corner the market on rare goods.

kringled_1

coop500 wrote: »

I'd like to point out that TTC can be used for console if you go to the site itself for shopping.

https://tamrieltradecentre.com/

As has been pointed out, probably earlier in this thread, while the TTC website manages separate listings data for consoles, it is lacking because there's no way to get the data to the site other than manual entry. Overwhelmingly the PC entries are a result of players doing searches/scans with the TTC add-on and running the companion app to upload that listing data, and there's no way to automate that process on consoles.

BlackTearsOfHope

People think they want it for convenience but don't think about the unattended side effects.
All poor & new players will be priced out of everything & the rich & bots will control the market.
It's just the way it is, it won't bode well.

Also, I think the horse at this point has turned to dust, probably should stop trying to beat it.

AlnilamE

Erelah wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS, for lots of very good reasons, will never have a Global Auction House. Cratering the economy is the primary one.

And, the real argument for a GHA is really people don't want to expend the effort to shop.

Rare items should take time to find, and time is money. Spend the time, or spend the money. Cant have it both ways.

Also, I for one would like to have Tamriel Trade Center disabled.

The economy is a bad reason. Real world economy for lower prices and creating competition allows me to buy whatever I want from my home. I can check several different websites and prices for the item I want looking for the best listing. Or if I am feeling particularly lazy go to one giant website with multiple merchants that have a great number of prices with customer reviews.

The only thing not having a global market in game benefits is a small number of traders rather than benefiting every player so everyone can compete and easily purchase what they want. This is over 20 years worth of real world data backing up this statement.

Yes. And then you try to find something semi-rare, like that just went out of production, and you spend hours looking at websites that swear they have it, but don't.

Not really like a central auction house at all.

And I'll keep the guild traders, please. They are more fun.