Proc set scaling: a visual guide

Urzigurumash

jaws343 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

But on live, med and heavy armor have more base resists and light armor takes more damage from physical attacks. So the pen that light armor gains is barely enough to break even with stam procs against light armor. You really don't need pen on stam against a player in light when you automatically do more damage to that player and that player has the lowest resistance armor on.

True, but there we're getting towards the general imbalance between Mag and Stam and away from the issue of how the caster's armor passives interact with procs' combat text. Again I'm not saying the OP isn't correct in the big picture that this change would have this effect - just that we need to see some combat text, or clips, or something, the math is too complicated to look at this one variable and say here's the problem. At least from view, I could be way off.

Cuddler

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

I wonder what sets you mean exactly. Right now on live, MA has access to a lot more proc sets that also buff its primary stats. For any hard-hitting Mag proc, we have one or more Stamina procs that are just as bad or worse.

Here is one example. Since Caluurion's was mentioned, Red Mountain hits nearly as hard, is on a shorter CD, is more difficult to avoid (1s delay vs Caluurion's 2s), and has no requirement to crit (= synergy with Malacath). Paired with Selene's, I currently get far more one-shot kills out of stealth on my stamblade with this combo than with Caluurion's on my magblade. Mag builds do not have an equivalent of Selene's.

This is not the main point of this thread though. In U30 all procs including Caluurion's will be hitting way harder on Stamina builds than Magicka.

Urzigurumash

Cuddler wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

I wonder what sets you mean exactly. Right now on live, MA has access to a lot more proc sets that also buff its primary stats. For any hard-hitting Mag proc, we have one or more Stamina procs that are just as bad or worse.

Here is one example. Since Caluurion's was mentioned, Red Mountain hits nearly as hard, is on a shorter CD, is more difficult to avoid (1s delay vs Caluurion's 2s), and has no requirement to crit (= synergy with Malacath). Paired with Selene's, I currently get far more one-shot kills out of stealth on my stamblade with this combo than with Caluurion's on my magblade. Mag builds do not have an equivalent of Selene's.

This is not the main point of this thread though. In U30 all procs including Caluurion's will be hitting way harder on Stamina builds than Magicka.

You're talking about the array of sets, that's another subject, getting away from the specific issue of how armor passives buff proc damage. Caluurion's hits harder on light than it does in medium on live - other things being equivalent - and whether other things generally aren't equivalent - i.e., Mauls vs Destro - again, getting away from the specific issue of how armor passives buff procs. So show us some video evidence that this discrepancy has been reversed, that's all. I'm not saying the video evidence isn't out there - this thread has been my only real exposure to the subject.

Yes, LA will see more of a reduction to proc tooltips than MA. Will they see more of a reduction to in game combat text, considering that procs hit harder in LA on live?

YandereGirlfriend

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

And if we're talking about weapon passives, do the Destro damage done passives buff procs? I don't play Mag so I don't know.

Two passives will apply - the one that provides +8% single-target (Inferno Staff) or +8% AoE damage (Shock Staff). The second that increases the chance to apply Status Effects by 100%.

The rest are immaterial and quite bad, actually. Destruction Staff passives need a compete overhaul... but that's a topic for another day.

Langeston

OK, for anyone having a difficult time understanding the argument being made, consider this:

What if instead of WD/SD, ZOS chose to make proc sets scale off of spell/weapon penetration? That's the same [poor] logic as what they're doing now, the only difference would be that in the OP cartoon the mag & stam toons would switch places. In that scenario, medium armor builds would obviously lose much more than light armor builds because of the simple fact that it's just harder for them to build penetration. No complex equations need to be done here to prove that.

However of you really want an equation, this is really the only one that is relevant:

s = stam proc base damage
m = mag proc base damage
x = class/race/skill modifiers

Pre-scaling:
s * x = stam proc tooltip
m * x = mag proc tooltip

Post-scaling:
1.6s * x = stam proc tooltip
1.2m * x = mag proc tooltip

The numbers (1.6 & 1.2) are WD/SD modifiers. They aren't exact, but they don't need to be — we know that no matter what the WD modifiers built into medium armor builds are greater than light armor modifiers, and that is all we need to know. It's literally the only variable at play here. Penetration on both mag and stam is not changing, and doesn't enter into the equation at all.

So all you really need to know here is that 1.6>1.2.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

Urzigurumash

Langeston wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

On live, procs do not scale with Weapon or Spell Damage. They do scale with Penetration. If it's a Magical Proc, it will do more damage the more pieces of light armor you have on up until the point all of your targets' resistances are nullified, all other things being equal.

Penetration is not a variable in tooltips. It is a variable in how much damage those tooltips end up doing. It's a relevant variable in the equation of how much damage procs do, even if it's not changing.

What we experience in BGs depends on the server. The most consistently highest scoring player I've seen this patch was a StamDen in Eternal Vigor and Syvarra's. Second up, MagSorc in Caluurion's and Mad Tinkerer. That's what I've seen on my server, I've mostly been in No Procrodiil.

BalticBlues

ManDraKE wrote: »

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful

Why are you spreading such nonsense?
Did you EVER die to Calurion with its LONGEST ANNOUNCEMENT and SLOWEST VEHICLE ever?
Then you must be the blindest and slowest player ever and deserve to die.

Stop ruining the last mag defense sets.

What kills people in PvP is dumb 2H or SNIPE spam.
What kills people in PvP is having to wear light (=negative) armor for damage as a mag player.
What kills people in PvP is having no way to defend a flag anymore as a mag player against a stam player.

1st phase: Mag SHIELDS do not protect anymore.
2nd phase: Mag ARMOR getting increased damage.
3rd phase: Mag PROCSETS will not hurt anymore.

DEAD ON FLAG.

Langeston

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

On live, procs do not scale with Weapon or Spell Damage. They do scale with Penetration. If it's a Magical Proc, it will do more damage the more pieces of light armor you have on up until the point all of your targets' resistances are nullified, all other things being equal.

Penetration is not a variable in tooltips. It is a variable in how much damage those tooltips end up doing. It's a relevant variable in the equation of how much damage procs do, even if it's not changing.

I understand that — and so does ZOS. They took such things into consideration when they originally designed the sets and how much damage they do.

Urzigurumash

Langeston wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

On live, procs do not scale with Weapon or Spell Damage. They do scale with Penetration. If it's a Magical Proc, it will do more damage the more pieces of light armor you have on up until the point all of your targets' resistances are nullified, all other things being equal.

Penetration is not a variable in tooltips. It is a variable in how much damage those tooltips end up doing. It's a relevant variable in the equation of how much damage procs do, even if it's not changing.

I understand that — and so does ZOS. They take such things into consideration when they design the sets and how much damage they do.

Yeah. I'm not arguing your meme is inaccurate - but we all know tooltips don't tell the whole story. That's all, let's see some real builds and how they play out against each other.

Waffennacht

.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

On live, procs do not scale with Weapon or Spell Damage. They do scale with Penetration. If it's a Magical Proc, it will do more damage the more pieces of light armor you have on up until the point all of your targets' resistances are nullified, all other things being equal.

Penetration is not a variable in tooltips. It is a variable in how much damage those tooltips end up doing. It's a relevant variable in the equation of how much damage procs do, even if it's not changing.

I understand that — and so does ZOS. They take such things into consideration when they design the sets and how much damage they do.

Yeah. I'm not arguing your meme is inaccurate - but we all know tooltips don't tell the whole story. That's all, let's see some real builds and how they play out against each other.

For stam builds, pretty well. Im actually using that build on live now - it will only be buffed next update. My procs will hit harder.

Urzigurumash

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. If what you're saying were true, BGs would be overrun with mag toons running proc sets. However, as we all know, that is simply not the case — it's hugely disproportionally stamina builds.

On live, procs do not scale with Weapon or Spell Damage. They do scale with Penetration. If it's a Magical Proc, it will do more damage the more pieces of light armor you have on up until the point all of your targets' resistances are nullified, all other things being equal.

Penetration is not a variable in tooltips. It is a variable in how much damage those tooltips end up doing. It's a relevant variable in the equation of how much damage procs do, even if it's not changing.

I understand that — and so does ZOS. They take such things into consideration when they design the sets and how much damage they do.

Yeah. I'm not arguing your meme is inaccurate - but we all know tooltips don't tell the whole story. That's all, let's see some real builds and how they play out against each other.

For stam builds, pretty well. Im actually using that build on live now - it will only be buffed next update. My procs will hit harder.

I believe you, but I clicked on this thread because it promised some visualization of data. I've seen none.

Jameson18

I'll just leave this here....

Target:
19,800 armor. (30%+/- mitigation). 50% Battle Spirit.

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 0 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2800

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Basic math is fun.

Urzigurumash

This issue probably comes down to Medium's WD bonus being Percentile and Light's Pen bonus being an Integer. I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere in more detail. We've seen the broad trend in favor of Integers over Percentiles, most recently with Swords and Mauls. Percentile buffs have always been capable of producing stronger "cheese" builds than integers, wouldn't we all agree? So how this scaling discrepancy bears out on live might depend quite a bit on whether it's really worth it for many Stam to drop the Serpent in favor of the Warrior, etc.

FlamingBeard

Jameson18 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here....

Target:
19,800 armor. (30%+/- mitigation). 50% Battle Spirit.

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 0 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2800

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Basic math is fun.

Not this again... ZERO PENETRATION for the stam example? Where are minor breach, maul, and major breach penetration?

Fixed it for you:

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 12,222 Penetration and target wearing 4x Light Armor (a 4% debuff)
Hits Target for: 4600

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This issue probably comes down to Medium's WD bonus being Percentile and Light's Pen bonus being an Integer. I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere in more detail. We've seen the broad trend in favor of Integers over Percentiles, most recently with Swords and Mauls. Percentile buffs have always been capable of producing stronger "cheese" builds than integers, wouldn't we all agree? So how this scaling discrepancy bears out on live might depend quite a bit on whether it's really worth it for many Stam to drop the Serpent in favor of the Warrior, etc.

Weapon damage is factually better to invest in than spell penetration in PvP because it immensely raises offensive power and healing potential. And light armor users are automatically debuffed on the physical side per light armor piece worn, meaning in order to lessen spell resistances, they give up their phyiscal own mitigation, which gives stam yet another edge to rip the less competitive mag builds apart.

ealdwin

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This issue probably comes down to Medium's WD bonus being Percentile and Light's Pen bonus being an Integer. I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere in more detail. We've seen the broad trend in favor of Integers over Percentiles, most recently with Swords and Mauls. Percentile buffs have always been capable of producing stronger "cheese" builds than integers, wouldn't we all agree? So how this scaling discrepancy bears out on live might depend quite a bit on whether it's really worth it for many Stam to drop the Serpent in favor of the Warrior, etc.

Pretty much, regarding percentiles.

Percentiles means the shape of potential damage from stacking sources ends up resembling a y = a^x graph, where the gain of each source is higher than the last. With 5 sources that each increase 20% to X Damage (x * 1.05 ^ 5), that last source is going to have more impact than the first. (This model is also more taxing to compute, especially on servers run by hamsters)

Integers, on the other hand, mean that each step provides the same gain as the one before and the next one. With 5 sources that each increase X Damage by 200, that last source has the exact same impact as the first. It makes the trade-off of exchanging that X Damage for Regeneration or Armor for those players who might need it less punishing. (y = mx with integers is also easier on the hamsters' brains)

(A more interesting system that would have built in diminishing returns would be to adopt a scaling model that resembled a y^2 = x graph, but that would probably end up being too hard for the poor hamsters.)

When one system is still caught in the percentile and the other has moved into the integer, it becomes a bit harder to fairly judge the impact either has.

I, personally, hold the opinion that the best way forward would be to (A) change MA out for a flat integer, and then (B) uncouple the benefits of each weight from the Mag/Stam divide. Let each weight provide different types of offensive advantages to both Mag and Stam specs so that both have the the option of either (and thus putting the debate between "more armor", "more penetration", "more damage", etc. to bed, at least where armor weight is concerned).

(Or, if anyone is feeling really drastic, uncouple offensive benefits from armor weight altogether and put it squarely in weapons/traits/enchants. Let each armor type be more about balancing the exchange between more protection vs. some other factor such as mobility or resource regeneration—LA casts frequently, low defense vs. HA casts infrequently, high defense, vs. MA in the middle, perhaps.)

Jameson18

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Not this again... ZERO PENETRATION for the stam example? Where are minor breach, maul, and major breach penetration?

Fixed it for you:

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 12,222 Penetration and target wearing 4x Light Armor (a 4% debuff)
Hits Target for: 4600

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This issue probably comes down to Medium's WD bonus being Percentile and Light's Pen bonus being an Integer. I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere in more detail. We've seen the broad trend in favor of Integers over Percentiles, most recently with Swords and Mauls. Percentile buffs have always been capable of producing stronger "cheese" builds than integers, wouldn't we all agree? So how this scaling discrepancy bears out on live might depend quite a bit on whether it's really worth it for many Stam to drop the Serpent in favor of the Warrior, etc.

Weapon damage is factually better to invest in than spell penetration in PvP because it immensely raises offensive power and healing potential. And light armor users are automatically debuffed on the physical side per light armor piece worn, meaning in order to lessen spell resistances, they give up their phyiscal own mitigation, which gives stam yet another edge to rip the less competitive mag builds apart.

You missed the point, and then built onto that point, all at the same time.

Langeston

Jameson18 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here....

Target:
19,800 armor. (30%+/- mitigation). 50% Battle Spirit.

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 0 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2800

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Basic math is fun.

What point are you trying to make here? I honestly can't tell.

My first impression was that you were cherry-picking numbers with no basis in reality to mathematically "prove" that proc scaling won't negatively affect magicka toons as much as is thought. With that in mind I typed up an incredibly snarky response — but then I realized that what your computations had actually proven was that even a poorly thought out stam build with zero penetration can still hit harder than a fairly solid mag build with ~20k penetration. (And sadly, that is not far from the truth in many cases.)

So now I'm pretty confused as to what it is you were trying to say. You either understand the problem and agree with me, or you don't understand it and disagree with me but accidentally reinforced my point, lol. (I think I'm leaning towards the former now, tbh.)

*** I put "prove" in scare quotes because pulling random numbers out of thin air doesn't actually prove anything, but at first I got the impression that you thought it did. Now, I'm not entirely sure what to think.

Jameson18

Langeston wrote: »

— but then I realized that what your computations had actually proved was that even a poorly thought out stam build with zero penetration can still hit harder than a fairly solid mag build with ~20k penetration. (And sadly, that is not far from the truth in many cases.)

You gotter otter.

Now, as the other examples scornfully given after would display - lets throw a maul or anything at all in the mix. The gap grows.

Langeston

Jameson18 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

— but then I realized that what your computations had actually proved was that even a poorly thought out stam build with zero penetration can still hit harder than a fairly solid mag build with ~20k penetration. (And sadly, that is not far from the truth in many cases.)

You gotter otter.

Now, as the other examples scornfully given after would display - lets throw a maul or anything at all in the mix. The gap grows.

Lol. Well met.

Urzigurumash

ealdwin wrote: »

When one system is still caught in the percentile and the other has moved into the integer, it becomes a bit harder to fairly judge the impact either has.

Thank you for the great explanation. This quote is why we should see some combat testing before we can make judgments. Proc scaling was devised as a way to balance out procs. The idea was that they would be balanced against other game elements, like skills and healing, which are also impacted differently by the various armor and weapon passives.

Sedare38

@ZOS_GinaBruno, please pass along, you all need to rethink how procs are scaled. Pool + dmg needs to be taken into account not just DMG. So much is sacrificed when using procs and Magicka toons, especially NBs cannot get the same spell damage as stamina based toons, not as easily anyway. To put on procs is to make sacrifices b/c we (magblades) are adding burst at the expense of base damage, pool, and regen to get the burst for the gank, and I am speaking from a gank perspective. even without proc sets, getting over 5k spell damage without alchemy set requires pretty much to have all the scrolls from opposing factions, continuous attack buff, vampire stage 2 coming out of cloak damage buff, and 20% spell damage. meanwhile stam toons can pretty much get over 6k with a rally and weapon enchant + a set.

Changes need to be made to how procs scale. Damage (from procs and just in general) should be a combo of raw damage + pool. Healing should be the same.

If you don't want that b/c "procs are too easymode/whatever your logic as developers is" then you all need to completely retool nightblades, magblades in particular so that we can do what we are meant to do better without proc sets and with our own abilities.

ManDraKE

BalticBlues wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful

Why are you spreading such nonsense?
Did you EVER die to Calurion with its LONGEST ANNOUNCEMENT and SLOWEST VEHICLE ever?

Yeah calurios is gargabe, that's why every single magika spec on high MMR bgs are using it. The excuse of "but is avoidable" is as stupid as the excuse of "but you can cleanse" when you are getting hit with 8 dots with a single gapcloser.

Anyron

ManDraKE wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful

Why are you spreading such nonsense?
Did you EVER die to Calurion with its LONGEST ANNOUNCEMENT and SLOWEST VEHICLE ever?

Yeah calurios is gargabe, that's why every single magika spec on high MMR bgs are using it. The excuse of "but is avoidable" is as stupid as the excuse of "but you can cleanse" when you are getting hit with 8 dots with a single gapcloser.

Caluurion is widely used with magicka characters because there is no other mag procset comparable to it while with stam you have much more sets to use