Proc set scaling: a visual guide

Langeston

FWIW: I don't even use proc sets so this doesn't affect me — I just think this solution is pretty terrible. Fix it in Battle Spirit and be done with it.

xylena_lazarow

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

Langeston

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

No, it doesn't.

I tested a friend's build on the PTS for him so he'd know what to expect next patch. Identical race/build/SD. Currently he has a 16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS.

In 5-1-1 you get 4,695 (7.71%) penetration from LA passives. Even if you wear 7 light (typically not a great idea) that's 6,573 (9.95%). No matter how you look at it, that doesn't make up for an over 50% reduced tooltip.

Waffennacht

Absolutely agree with OP.

And I wouldnt even say stam got smaller. When this goes live some builds got buffed

JerBearESO

Yeah, the proc changes do nothing good for the game. The main thing the change does is it puts a lot of players in the position of needing to buy race change tokens so as to switch to a race with wep/spell damage passives. Hm......

Urzigurumash

Langeston wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

No, it doesn't.

I tested a friend's build on the PTS for him so he'd know what to expect next patch. Identical race/build/SD. Currently he has a 16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS.

In 5-1-1 you get 4,695 (7.71%) penetration from LA passives. Even if you wear 7 light (typically not a great idea) that's 6,573 (9.95%). No matter how you look at it, that doesn't make up for an over 50% reduced tooltip.

I think their point wasn't that Spell Pen gets you back to live values, but that it equalizes the discrepancy between light and medium armor proc strength on PTS

Can you make that exact same build on PTS but swap out sources of Wpn Dmg for Spell, swap out Light for Medium, and test how hard the proc hits for on each build, rather than its tooltip? Or explain whether this discrepancy exists with just theoretical numbers, if you're able to.

ManDraKE

Langeston wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

No, it doesn't.

I tested a friend's build on the PTS for him so he'd know what to expect next patch. Identical race/build/SD. Currently he has a 16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS.

In 5-1-1 you get 4,695 (7.71%) penetration from LA passives. Even if you wear 7 light (typically not a great idea) that's 6,573 (9.95%). No matter how you look at it, that doesn't make up for an over 50% reduced tooltip.

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful, so what you are seeing on the PTS is in line with that. Stamprocs will also be hitting less harder than on live (yeah we can all make meme builds with 10k weapon damage just to take screenshots, but those are not viable builds for actual PvP)

xylena_lazarow

Langeston wrote: »

16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS

What numbers would a stam version of this same build using Red Mountain be hitting?

Concern is understandable, but Caluurion's is one of things they intended to nerf, and justifiably so.

Starlock

I'm just quitting the game if this goes live. May not be back ever, but definitely won't be back until they fix this. These changes so utterly destroy the usability and fun of proc sets for anyone who doesn't always play in groups or doesn't min/max character stats. I hate games that cater excessively to power gamers, and that's what these changes do. The power gamers will keep power gaming and be fine. The rest of us just get screwed.

DreadDaedroth

Well look how few sets scale with Health Stat....

Langeston

To everyone talking about how Caluurion's should get nerfed anyway: with all due respect, that is beside the point and irrelevant to this conversation. The point being made is that this change disproportionately harms mag toons because they are not equipped to build SD in the same way that stam toons can build WD — this is indisputable.

Pre-scaling, proc sets just did the amount of damage on the tooltip. There were ways of increasing the tooltip (Major/Minor Berserk, Malacath, class passives, etc.) but they "scaled" identically. Basically, what you see is what you get. When things worked that way, no one complained about magicka procs overperforming — in fact, all the sets people complained about were stam sets.

Now, fast forward to next patch: all magicka proc set tooltips will decrease more relative to stam tooltips — this is simply unavoidable due to the aforementioned stam WD buffs. Therefore, mag toons are getting yet another nerf in PVP, at a point where stam already firmly reigns supreme.

All ZOS had to do was decrease the amount of damage proc sets do by a certain percentage in Battle Spirit, and everyone would have been affected identically. The solution ZOS chose is needlessly complicated and inferior by every metric.

Like I said, I don't even use procs in PVP so this isn't affecting me. It just really p***es me off how badly this issue has been handled.

Waffennacht

.

ManDraKE wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

No, it doesn't.

I tested a friend's build on the PTS for him so he'd know what to expect next patch. Identical race/build/SD. Currently he has a 16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS.

In 5-1-1 you get 4,695 (7.71%) penetration from LA passives. Even if you wear 7 light (typically not a great idea) that's 6,573 (9.95%). No matter how you look at it, that doesn't make up for an over 50% reduced tooltip.

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful, so what you are seeing on the PTS is in line with that. Stamprocs will also be hitting less harder than on live (yeah we can all make meme builds with 10k weapon damage just to take screenshots, but those are not viable builds for actual PvP)

7k wpn dmg is easily achieved without gimmicks consistently while still having 2 procs.

The only gimmick type buff on my screen shot is continuous, aside from that its all procs and alchemist

xylena_lazarow

Waffennacht wrote: »

aside from that its all procs and alchemist

Just curious, which procs?

Langeston

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

aside from that its all procs and alchemist

Just curious, which procs?

Well, I'm sure a proc set that also gives you 458 WD won't hurt...

Deadlands Assassin – Medium
2 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
3 – Adds 129 Weapon Damage
4 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
5 – Adds 200 Weapon Damage
5 – Dealing damage to an enemy within 10 meters of you with a Heavy Attack causes you to throw a cone of knives, dealing Physical Damage to enemies hit. If an enemy hit has 50% Health or less, they also take additional Bleed Damage over 13 seconds and scales off of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

I'm no expert on proc sets so maybe there are mag sets that do something similar, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Seems to me that most of them give you spell crit & mag recovery.

Urzigurumash

Langeston wrote: »

Now, fast forward to next patch: all magicka proc set tooltips will decrease more relative to stam tooltips — this is simply unavoidable due to the aforementioned stam WD buffs. Therefore, mag toons are getting yet another nerf in PVP, at a point where stam already firmly reigns supreme..

Tooltips are the beginning of the equation, combat text is the end.

If procs had the same tooltip in Light Armor as they did in Medium, their combat text would be higher in Light Armor than in Medium - barring Onslaught and Corrosive, and ignoring Stam's benefit of getting stam back from mauls/mace heavies. If the latter issue were resolved the imbalances appear to be minimal, but I don't have PTS so I don't really know, all theoretical. Onslaught is terrible right now and as for Corrosive, well, just us StamDK have this niche advantage - neither of these will work for DoT procs anyhow.

Langeston

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Now, fast forward to next patch: all magicka proc set tooltips will decrease more relative to stam tooltips — this is simply unavoidable due to the aforementioned stam WD buffs. Therefore, mag toons are getting yet another nerf in PVP, at a point where stam already firmly reigns supreme..

Tooltips are the beginning of the equation, combat text is the end.

If procs had the same tooltip in Light Armor as they did in Medium, their combat text would be higher in Light Armor than in Medium - barring Onslaught and Corrosive, and ignoring Stam's benefit of getting stam back from mauls/mace heavies. If the latter issue were resolved the imbalances appear to be minimal, but I don't have PTS so I don't really know, all theoretical. Onslaught is terrible right now and as for Corrosive, well, just us StamDK have this niche advantage - neither of these will work for DoT procs anyhow.

Again, irrelevant.

Last patch, if anything, stam proc sets were outperforming mag proc sets (with a few possible exceptions). Next patch the divide will only widen. I don't understand why this is even being contested.

ManDraKE

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

ManDraKE wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

No, it doesn't.

I tested a friend's build on the PTS for him so he'd know what to expect next patch. Identical race/build/SD. Currently he has a 16170 Caluurion tooltip on live — it's just 7843 on the PTS.

In 5-1-1 you get 4,695 (7.71%) penetration from LA passives. Even if you wear 7 light (typically not a great idea) that's 6,573 (9.95%). No matter how you look at it, that doesn't make up for an over 50% reduced tooltip.

is not intented to make up for the 50% reduce tooltip, calurions is completly broken on Live. The objective of this patch is to make proc sets less powerful, so what you are seeing on the PTS is in line with that. Stamprocs will also be hitting less harder than on live (yeah we can all make meme builds with 10k weapon damage just to take screenshots, but those are not viable builds for actual PvP)

7k wpn dmg is easily achieved without gimmicks consistently while still having 2 procs.

The only gimmick type buff on my screen shot is continuous, aside from that its all procs and alchemist

7k is not "easily achived", you need clever alchemist+full or almost full wpn damage jewerly+balorg, or another wpn damage set, plus at least 4-5 medium pieces, just starting with clever guarentes that the "easily achived 7k" has 45% uptime, and you probably need to count the downtime of weapon enchanment cooldown (or at least the GCDs needed to bar swap, LA with infused backbar, and barswap again). Is not "Easily achived" and is most likely around 35% uptime under realistic combat situations, counting that proc sets have their own coldown in general.

That's a rought estimate, there a millon of build possibilies ofc (and it depends on classes, dk and tempar trend to have naturally more wpn damage), and ALL that to reach current live tooltips, on live you can do it with 0 invesmtent and just stacking defense and set

Also you need to keep in mind that magika proc sets hit harder in general (stamproc sets are mostly dots or low tooltip, the only exception being red mountain)

Urzigurumash

Langeston wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Now, fast forward to next patch: all magicka proc set tooltips will decrease more relative to stam tooltips — this is simply unavoidable due to the aforementioned stam WD buffs. Therefore, mag toons are getting yet another nerf in PVP, at a point where stam already firmly reigns supreme..

Tooltips are the beginning of the equation, combat text is the end.

If procs had the same tooltip in Light Armor as they did in Medium, their combat text would be higher in Light Armor than in Medium - barring Onslaught and Corrosive, and ignoring Stam's benefit of getting stam back from mauls/mace heavies. If the latter issue were resolved the imbalances appear to be minimal, but I don't have PTS so I don't really know, all theoretical. Onslaught is terrible right now and as for Corrosive, well, just us StamDK have this niche advantage - neither of these will work for DoT procs anyhow.

Again, irrelevant.

Last patch, if anything, stam proc sets were outperforming mag proc sets (with a few possible exceptions). Next patch the divide will only widen. I don't understand why this is even being contested.

How is it irrelevant?

virtus753

Langeston wrote: »

To everyone talking about how Caluurion's should get nerfed anyway: with all due respect, that is beside the point and irrelevant to this conversation. The point being made is that this change disproportionately harms mag toons because they are not equipped to build SD in the same way that stam toons can build WD — this is indisputable.

The problem is the point you mention hasn’t been made here.

No one has come up with the numbers in this thread to compare the full effect of mag vs stam. Only SD vs WD, which ignores the impact of penetration bonuses. Stam toons are designed to have higher WD than mag toons have SD, because mag toons generally have other benefits stam doesn’t get (lots of penetration and range). Stam is really hurting in the penetration area right now, especially with the most recent cut to Piercing. Higher WD compared to mag toons’ SD is one way in which stam makes up for much lower natural pen. If both stam and mag could raise their respective damage stat equally easily, or if they could achieve the same tooltips, then mag would do more damage, especially in PvP.

Now the question is: where is the math to show the overall outcome of a mag build vs a stam build, *all things considered*?

Sanctum74

How did op get a hold of an official Zos balancing spreadsheet? Seems about right lol.

Cuddler

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

It beggars belief how often this spurious argument is brought up on the forum. The LA penetration passive is not changing from U29 to U30 so it is completely irrelevant. Ask yourself this question: does the LA passive make LA even remotely competitive vs MA builds now, in U29? The answer is, no it does not, aside perhaps from ball train builds.

The simple fact is, LA builds will see proc set tooltips significantly reduced in U30 while MA builds will not. This is when MA already dominates PVP and has access to a better arsenal of proc sets.

Urzigurumash

Cuddler wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

It beggars belief how often this spurious argument is brought up on the forum. The LA penetration passive is not changing from U29 to U30 so it is completely irrelevant. Ask yourself this question: does the LA passive make LA even remotely competitive vs MA builds now, in U29? The answer is, no it does not, aside perhaps from ball train builds.

The simple fact is, LA builds will see proc set tooltips significantly reduced in U30 while MA builds will not. This is when MA already dominates PVP and has access to a better arsenal of proc sets.

Why is it spurious? Maces and mauls give spell pen, Swords give spell damage. Yes, Heavy Attacks should restore highest stat - separate issue, also one of the most frequent complaints over the years along with procs' unscaled damage. Breach is both penetrations. All mag users have access to ranged Breach via Weakness to Elements, only StamNB does.

Minor Breach from Sundered? Sure ok, that's not exactly 100% uptime though, and if we're talking about stacking procs with Balorgh and Clever, etc., this Minor Breach isn't enough to make LA Penetration "irrelevant" to this subject.

Shock damage has a chance for Minor Vulnerability. Stam doesn't have universal access to this debuff outside of like Noble's Conquest or whichever sets.

And if we're talking about weapon passives, do the Destro damage done passives buff procs? I don't play Mag so I don't know.

ealdwin

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

It beggars belief how often this spurious argument is brought up on the forum. The LA penetration passive is not changing from U29 to U30 so it is completely irrelevant. Ask yourself this question: does the LA passive make LA even remotely competitive vs MA builds now, in U29? The answer is, no it does not, aside perhaps from ball train builds.

The simple fact is, LA builds will see proc set tooltips significantly reduced in U30 while MA builds will not. This is when MA already dominates PVP and has access to a better arsenal of proc sets.

And if we're talking about weapon passives, do the Destro damage done passives buff procs? I don't play Mag so I don't know.

Considering the text for that passive explicitly says “abilities”, I would assume no.

Cuddler

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is a PvE problem right? In PvP your pen makes up for lower tooltips just fine.

It beggars belief how often this spurious argument is brought up on the forum. The LA penetration passive is not changing from U29 to U30 so it is completely irrelevant. Ask yourself this question: does the LA passive make LA even remotely competitive vs MA builds now, in U29? The answer is, no it does not, aside perhaps from ball train builds.

The simple fact is, LA builds will see proc set tooltips significantly reduced in U30 while MA builds will not. This is when MA already dominates PVP and has access to a better arsenal of proc sets.

Why is it spurious?

Because LA penetration is not changing. Only the proc set tooltips are. They will be lower on LA builds and the same or higher on MA builds. Therefore, relative to U29, LA proc builds are getting nerfed and MA proc builds are staying the same or getting buffed.

The question then is, is it justified? It would be if Magicka procs were outperforming Stamina procs in U29. They are not. Stamina arguably has access to a better arsenal of proc sets already.

Everything else that you mention - maces, Minor Vulnerability etc - is irrelevant for the same reason as LA penetration: none of it is changing in U30. We know from experience in U29 that all of these things combined are still not enough to make LA builds competitive.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't play Mag so I don't know.

Give it a go. I am playing exclusively Stamina too on all of my characters thanks to the current meta, but would change some of them to Magicka if some semblance of balance ever returned to ESO PVP.

Tigertron

virtus753 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

To everyone talking about how Caluurion's should get nerfed anyway: with all due respect, that is beside the point and irrelevant to this conversation. The point being made is that this change disproportionately harms mag toons because they are not equipped to build SD in the same way that stam toons can build WD — this is indisputable.

The problem is the point you mention hasn’t been made here.

No one has come up with the numbers in this thread to compare the full effect of mag vs stam. Only SD vs WD, which ignores the impact of penetration bonuses. Stam toons are designed to have higher WD than mag toons have SD, because mag toons generally have other benefits stam doesn’t get (lots of penetration and range). Stam is really hurting in the penetration area right now, especially with the most recent cut to Piercing. Higher WD compared to mag toons’ SD is one way in which stam makes up for much lower natural pen. If both stam and mag could raise their respective damage stat equally easily, or if they could achieve the same tooltips, then mag would do more damage, especially in PvP.

Now the question is: where is the math to show the overall outcome of a mag build vs a stam build, *all things considered*?

Right. Block doesn’t cost magika. Bash doesn’t cost magika. Roll dodge doesn’t cost magika. Mag run out of stam and they just keep on damaging.

What if roll dodge/bash/block costs X stam/mag based on your higher stat? Just like some think SP should equal WD regardless of resources.

xylena_lazarow

Cuddler wrote: »

It beggars belief how often this spurious argument is brought up on the forum.

Look, if anyone cares that much, test this, and let us know the actual disparity in CMX.
Balorgh + Hunding + Red Mountain (7 med)
Balorgh + Julianos + Caluurion (7 light)

Tigertron

Cuddler wrote: »

Because LA penetration is not changing.

The following stars have gone down to 2 stages from 4 stages:
Blessed
Eldritch Insight
Elemental Defender
Hardy
Piercing

Or from 1400 to 700

Urzigurumash

Cuddler wrote: »

Because LA penetration is not changing. Only the proc set tooltips are. They will be lower on LA builds and the same or higher on MA builds. Therefore, relative to U29, LA proc builds are getting nerfed and MA proc builds are staying the same or getting buffed.

Ok thank you for explaining that, that makes sense. The thing is that Mag Procs hit harder in Light than they do in Medium in U29. I think that's why Xylena is asking for a comparison using Red Mountain - a "stam" proc set that does mag damage. In isolation we see some balance between Medium's WD and Light's Spell Pen. As to how this bears out regarding this new thing of proc scaling, you guys might be right it's completely in favor of Stam, but we need some accounting for the penetration in any theoretical numerical comparison, no? The tooltips are going down further for Light Armor builds than they are for Medium, yes, but again, what about the combat text? Have Medium proc builds suffered less of a reduction to their proc combat text than Light proc builds, or not? This phenomenon is new enough I trust you understand why some of us prefer to see some combat testing rather than just build parameters. Ultimately, however, it's perfectly equal regarding Heavy Armor, which is largely the reason procs are getting scaling. Sure, that new Mag Fury, Voidcaller, should've droppped in Heavy, not Light, etc., but the array of sets is a separate issue, in my view. Molag Kena is still better on ranged builds than non-WW melee, always has been - in my view - and more ranged builds are mag than stam.

Cuddler wrote: »

The question then is, is it justified? It would be if Magicka procs were outperforming Stamina procs in U29. They are not. Stamina arguably has access to a better arsenal of proc sets already.

Everything else that you mention - maces, Minor Vulnerability etc - is irrelevant for the same reason as LA penetration: none of it is changing in U30. We know from experience in U29 that all of these things combined are still not enough to make LA builds competitive.

If it is true that proc sets are generally hitting harder on reasonable Stam builds than they are on reasonable Mag builds, of course it's not justified. As for those other things I mentioned, yes definitely trending towards the irrelevant there, or at least getting far from the subject of armor passives' interaction with procs.

Cuddler wrote: »

Give it a go. I am playing exclusively Stamina too on all of my characters thanks to the current meta, but would change some of them to Magicka if some semblance of balance ever returned to ESO PVP.

Well I've played 2h StamDK every patch of this game on console, at times I was ridiculed for it. Things will come around.

By no means was I trying to argue that Stam isn't stronger than Mag right now, and that nothing in these patch notes appears to works towards resolving that - but we now know it certainly isn't on account of damage procs. If anything procs are helping to close the gap between Mag and Stam right now, if you compare Cyro to BGs. So whether this particular issue - how armor passives scale procs - will perpetuate the general imbalance between Mag and Stam - you can understand how we're not entirely convinced without seeing more evidence.

I wasn't arguing this new potential imbalance isn't manifesting right now on PTS, only that just indicating the Medium armor buff to WD is a cause of new imbalance, without acknowledging the Light buff to Pen, without acknowledging that tooltips do not equal combat text, seems like we're glossing over something important.

Waffennacht

@xylena_lazarow that is Morkuldin and Maw of the Infernal, alchemist,

That's with alchemist buff on.

Its actually easy to hit the necessary numbers on a Stam toon despite what @ManDraKE thinks.

6.5k (proc goal) can be achieived wearing all proc sets (not even using Vateshran 2h) no alchemist.

However I cant hit near that in spell damage

Urzigurumash

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

jaws343

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So to my summarize my point there -

Right now on live, (certain) proc sets hit harder in light armor than they do in medium.

This imbalance exists, right now, on live, without proc scaling, contrary to the image displayed in the OP.

But on live, med and heavy armor have more base resists and light armor takes more damage from physical attacks. So the pen that light armor gains is barely enough to break even with stam procs against light armor. You really don't need pen on stam against a player in light when you automatically do more damage to that player and that player has the lowest resistance armor on.