psa: light attack weave.

remosito

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yep, gotta get your LA weaving down to a T. That's where training dummies become an invaluable tool, you can just beat on it all day long and develop that muscle memory with your LA weaving.

All I gotta do is have fun...

maybe if I would get paid to play the game. I might wanna do something as mindnumbing and soul destroying as standing in my virtual house and hit a dummy for hours on end. But salary would have to be pretty high tbh...

Fun for some of us, means playing the best we can and seeing how we stack up against everyone else. Then improving and seeing yourself rise in the ranks. It's just an indescribable feeling of accomplishment when you aren't where you want to be, then after some effort and practice and will power, get to where you want to be. For some of us, that is where the fun begins.

Totally understand.

Which is why I used I. to describe my view.

In contrast to poster I replied to which said "you gotta get totation down to a T amd get a dummy. and stand in front of it to train"..

just an old fart who hates when somebody tells him what he gotta do or not do... basically.. dont mind me ;-)

If you find other ways to build muscle memory then more power to you. A training dummy is the easiest way, since it has a lot of HP, and respawns after it dies. It also parses you, which can be used a frame of reference for progress. You kill two birds with one stone that way. But if you want to just use old fashioned NPCs, by all means, whatever gets you to the light at the end of the tunnel right?

All my 10 chars are tanks or healer for group content.

Main reason being the la weave combat system requiring dummy humping. Followed rather closely by df queue times....

I guess having 10 chars and using them all rather regularly. And hating to make each pretty much a copy of the other gear and skills wise doesn't help. To much variation in rotations. Does not gel well with the being an old fart.... ;-)

Surprisingly ESO has very few buttons to a DPS rotation compared to almost every other MMORPG on the market. Even BDO requires you to memorize a handful of combos. ESO's is really easy in comparison, especially a One par Stamplar. But hey if you love tanking and healing then more power to you.

and how much dps loss is there if your timings are off. what is the apm for those?

I think I would vastly prefer lower apm but more skills. Needing to memorize a dozen things. And needing to create muscle memory as well for them are two very, very different things...

Then you would probably want to play MMORPG's like WoW and EQ2. Auto attack systems, tab targeting, and multiple bars full of skills. That sounds like it would be more up your alley than ESO is, because ESO is not about having 7 bars full of spells to click on. It's combat from the very begging has been about choice, mechanical movements, weaving LA/HA between spells, and aiming at a (large) hit box. It's not about APM, this isn't StarCraft. It's about the flow of your rotation, and how consistently you can maintain that flow. Eventually you get fast enough to max out the GCD most of the time.

not interested in mmos at all.

I just want to play elder scroll games.

Too bad they decided on a mmo this round and threw in a really bad in my book combat system...

the systems you described from those others sound way nore up my alley I agree.

Goregrinder

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yep, gotta get your LA weaving down to a T. That's where training dummies become an invaluable tool, you can just beat on it all day long and develop that muscle memory with your LA weaving.

All I gotta do is have fun...

maybe if I would get paid to play the game. I might wanna do something as mindnumbing and soul destroying as standing in my virtual house and hit a dummy for hours on end. But salary would have to be pretty high tbh...

Fun for some of us, means playing the best we can and seeing how we stack up against everyone else. Then improving and seeing yourself rise in the ranks. It's just an indescribable feeling of accomplishment when you aren't where you want to be, then after some effort and practice and will power, get to where you want to be. For some of us, that is where the fun begins.

Totally understand.

Which is why I used I. to describe my view.

In contrast to poster I replied to which said "you gotta get totation down to a T amd get a dummy. and stand in front of it to train"..

just an old fart who hates when somebody tells him what he gotta do or not do... basically.. dont mind me ;-)

If you find other ways to build muscle memory then more power to you. A training dummy is the easiest way, since it has a lot of HP, and respawns after it dies. It also parses you, which can be used a frame of reference for progress. You kill two birds with one stone that way. But if you want to just use old fashioned NPCs, by all means, whatever gets you to the light at the end of the tunnel right?

All my 10 chars are tanks or healer for group content.

Main reason being the la weave combat system requiring dummy humping. Followed rather closely by df queue times....

I guess having 10 chars and using them all rather regularly. And hating to make each pretty much a copy of the other gear and skills wise doesn't help. To much variation in rotations. Does not gel well with the being an old fart.... ;-)

Surprisingly ESO has very few buttons to a DPS rotation compared to almost every other MMORPG on the market. Even BDO requires you to memorize a handful of combos. ESO's is really easy in comparison, especially a One par Stamplar. But hey if you love tanking and healing then more power to you.

and how much dps loss is there if your timings are off. what is the apm for those?

I think I would vastly prefer lower apm but more skills. Needing to memorize a dozen things. And needing to create muscle memory as well for them are two very, very different things...

Then you would probably want to play MMORPG's like WoW and EQ2. Auto attack systems, tab targeting, and multiple bars full of skills. That sounds like it would be more up your alley than ESO is, because ESO is not about having 7 bars full of spells to click on. It's combat from the very begging has been about choice, mechanical movements, weaving LA/HA between spells, and aiming at a (large) hit box. It's not about APM, this isn't StarCraft. It's about the flow of your rotation, and how consistently you can maintain that flow. Eventually you get fast enough to max out the GCD most of the time.

not interested in mmos at all.

I just want to play elder scroll games.

Too bad they decided on a mmo this round and threw in a really bad in my book combat system...

the systems you described from those others sound way nore up my alley I agree.

You wanted to just play an Elder Scrolls game but feel like you have to suffer through the MMO experience to do it. I feel you on that. I just wanted to play an RvRvR PVP MMORPG but always felt like I had to suffer through the Elder Scrolls experience to do it.

Varana

oldbobdude wrote: »

Related but a little off the main topic. I think the gcd is 1s. Does that mean I can't recast the same skill until gcd passes or does it mean I can't cast any skill until gcd passes? It seems it might be any, but I'm still fairly new and miss a lot anyway.

Any.
Once you used any skill from your bar, you cannot use any other skill for ~1 second.

Tigertron

So weaving and ApM are not the same. Weaving is cadence and if done correctly is kind of slow. The tricky part is keeping time. If you speed up your DPS suffers. If you slow down your DPS suffers.

If your on pc and use cmx look in the log. If you see a lot of skills being qued then you are casting too fast during the GCD. You need to slow down. In my experience this is more the problem than going too slow. Players get amped up and start banging keys like a monkey on crack. Skill GCD is 1 second. After you cast, you then need one light attack in that 1 second but no more until it is over. The second skill will fire automatically but anything after that and before GCD ends is lost. Or I should say the last one is qued and fired after GCD. LA is also a skill

trackdemon5512

Vast vast vast majority of this game knows nothing about weaving. That’s the main point. It’s been 7 years and the best players can point to in-game is literally “a load screen tells you that light attack weaving increases your damage output”. That’s a problem.

Add to it that if you do learn about it you have to practice for hours on combat dummies to get the hang of it. Frankly that’s absolutely ridiculous. The player wastes their time doing so. The game developer wastes player time during which they could be actually contributing to the game. It’s a grind without a real reward.

I know console players have it even harder. They experience more lag, controller issues, etc that throw them off. Really you shouldn’t have to buy an ace machine just to get a core damage mechanic down.

At first I likened light attack weaving to Street Fighter combos. But those are carefully explored by the developers and adjusted accordingly. Light Attack weaving is more like Grand Theft Auto Online racing. In that game going over uneven surfaces results in a small speed boost. Not much but “the best players” consistently weave on-off sources like this to speed up and win. It makes no sense whatsoever in actual context and eventually is even better performing than real racing to sticking to lines and properly taking corners.

I know a segment of gamers, the OG players love that LA weaving makes the game feel faster but it’s still *** poor in implementation. I was extremely happy with the test last summer for a replacement and hope that it continues or a change is implemented in the near future.

katanagirl1

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Huh, 75k dps.

Maybe it’s easy for you. I’ve had several players try to help me and I get less than 1/3 of that. But that’s not on trial dummy because I don’t have one.

Also, I have way better dps than many on my friends list.

It’s not that easy to get the timing so precise. Be happy it is for you but don’t look down on the rest of us.

@katanagirl1
I feel like I'm missing something here. I wasn't looking down on or trying to offend you in any way. I was just trying to relay that weaving gets easier over time(To point, for me), just start off slow. But also build and class synergy and class familiarity are big factors at play. My friend got me to make a magdk, he does 90+k on trial dummy, while I could only pull 30k(after quite a bit of parsing). So comfortability with a class/build is also a huge plus. As for the trial dummy, I hear you, I don't have one either, I'm just lucky enough to have access to one in a guild hall(You are more than welcome to join, it's a housing guild). Also, sorry for the long write up.

No it’s not you, I’m just a bit defensive. I’ve been trying this for years. It just doesn’t work for me (on console).

For one thing, NBs endless hail skill has that 3 sec animation that throws me off on the subsequent light attack. My light attacks often don’t register so I have to do two heavy attacks per rotation. That just kills it. 20k dps on a good day.

I’m done spending time with the training dummy. I’ll just farm furnishing plans.

Everyone assumes I don’t know what to do, but that is not the problem.

FriedEggSandwich

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Huh, 75k dps.

Maybe it’s easy for you. I’ve had several players try to help me and I get less than 1/3 of that. But that’s not on trial dummy because I don’t have one.

Also, I have way better dps than many on my friends list.

It’s not that easy to get the timing so precise. Be happy it is for you but don’t look down on the rest of us.

@katanagirl1
I feel like I'm missing something here. I wasn't looking down on or trying to offend you in any way. I was just trying to relay that weaving gets easier over time(To point, for me), just start off slow. But also build and class synergy and class familiarity are big factors at play. My friend got me to make a magdk, he does 90+k on trial dummy, while I could only pull 30k(after quite a bit of parsing). So comfortability with a class/build is also a huge plus. As for the trial dummy, I hear you, I don't have one either, I'm just lucky enough to have access to one in a guild hall(You are more than welcome to join, it's a housing guild). Also, sorry for the long write up.

No it’s not you, I’m just a bit defensive. I’ve been trying this for years. It just doesn’t work for me (on console).

For one thing, NBs endless hail skill has that 3 sec animation that throws me off on the subsequent light attack. My light attacks often don’t register so I have to do two heavy attacks per rotation. That just kills it. 20k dps on a good day.

I’m done spending time with the training dummy. I’ll just farm furnishing plans.

Everyone assumes I don’t know what to do, but that is not the problem.

I often wonder if the problems people have with responsiveness on console are caused by bluetooth and wifi. Bluetooth between the controller and console, and then wifi between the console and the internet. Most pc players use ethernet and wired mouse/keyboard. But even wireless peripherals on pc are 2.5GHz, no pc gamer would use a bluetooth mouse (afaik). If I played on console I would insist on an ethernet connection at least, and if my controller came with a wire for data I would use it. Console players love the convenience, and part of that convenience is wireless, but pc players traditionally choose wires for a reason. Just a thought, and I know I'm assuming a lot.

perfiction

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I often wonder if the problems people have with responsiveness on console are caused by bluetooth and wifi.

Don't forget that consoles are capped at 30 FPS, which further increases input lag compared to PC (60+ FPS). The game is also less stable in general (FPS drops, animations/models popping in due to slow loading etc. Hopefully next gen update will make the experience better). I think there are some issues with gamepad mode as well, my friend plays on really good PC using Xbox controller and he complains about skills randomly not being registered during rotation.

TelvanniWizard

Flamebait wrote: »

A wonderful example of a fun way to design a game, nothing says great time like having to beat on a training dummy for hours at a time for days and weeks to play the most basic aspect of the game. YAY!

You speak the truth. I cannot agree more.

FriedEggSandwich

perfiction wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I often wonder if the problems people have with responsiveness on console are caused by bluetooth and wifi.

Don't forget that consoles are capped at 30 FPS, which further increases input lag compared to PC (60+ FPS). The game is also less stable in general (FPS drops, animations/models popping in due to slow loading etc. Hopefully next gen update will make the experience better). I think there are some issues with gamepad mode as well, my friend plays on really good PC using Xbox controller and he complains about skills randomly not being registered during rotation.

Interesting, unless your friend is confirmed using a wired controller that could also suggest that wireless controllers might be part of the issue. I hate bluetooth, it always seems so eager to snooze (conserve energy), and wasn't designed with data integrity as a priority. There's a reason wireless pc gaming peripherals use 2.5GHz.

Nord_Raseri

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Huh, 75k dps.

Maybe it’s easy for you. I’ve had several players try to help me and I get less than 1/3 of that. But that’s not on trial dummy because I don’t have one.

Also, I have way better dps than many on my friends list.

It’s not that easy to get the timing so precise. Be happy it is for you but don’t look down on the rest of us.

@katanagirl1
I feel like I'm missing something here. I wasn't looking down on or trying to offend you in any way. I was just trying to relay that weaving gets easier over time(To point, for me), just start off slow. But also build and class synergy and class familiarity are big factors at play. My friend got me to make a magdk, he does 90+k on trial dummy, while I could only pull 30k(after quite a bit of parsing). So comfortability with a class/build is also a huge plus. As for the trial dummy, I hear you, I don't have one either, I'm just lucky enough to have access to one in a guild hall(You are more than welcome to join, it's a housing guild). Also, sorry for the long write up.

No it’s not you, I’m just a bit defensive. I’ve been trying this for years. It just doesn’t work for me (on console).

For one thing, NBs endless hail skill has that 3 sec animation that throws me off on the subsequent light attack. My light attacks often don’t register so I have to do two heavy attacks per rotation. That just kills it. 20k dps on a good day.

I’m done spending time with the training dummy. I’ll just farm furnishing plans.

Everyone assumes I don’t know what to do, but that is not the problem.

I hear you. when I use a bow I have it on back bar so I'll la before endless hail then bar swap during the animation. 20k on a standard dummy isn't bad btw. That may be closer to 35-40k on trial dummy. How's your rotation looking? As I've said, I am mediocre when it comes to end game, but if you need help at all I'm on the same server. Or my friend may be better help(he helped me a lot).

Smitch_59

What brand of metronome do y'all use?

poodlemasterb16_ESO

You poor people on consoles. my Elcom Trackball, I bought for EvE Online is just perfect.

It has a extra buttons, which are nice but the extra right button, beyond the right button is just golden. I have LA with my left mouse button, as usual, but the skill on the far right button, my weave is so easy to use. Thumb ... Little Finger, and repeat till it lies down.

I run my 2 bars as a 'single target bar' and an 'aoe bar'. On some chars the only difference is the skill on the far right button.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

[Quoted post has been removed.]

What's a grapple bow? Being able to just burn down whatever is in your way is nice. Being able to bring down those million+ health bosses is nice. I dunno, weaving is not very hard.

I don't block. I'm not there. Being extremely mobile makes this game easier.

Malkiv

The tutorial has blocking and interrupting as forced checks you must complete to progress, but I very rarely see anyone low level using these in normal dungeons; even some vet dungeons have high CP players ignoring important interrupts and blocks. A majority of people will just go through the motions in a tutorial, then instantly forget what they've learned because the overland/story content simply does not require it. Putting LA weave training in the tutorial is not going to increase the awareness of LA weaving to an extent that is appreciable. More people might be aware, but not practicing since it is not required.

trackdemon5512

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I often wonder if the problems people have with responsiveness on console are caused by bluetooth and wifi.

Don't forget that consoles are capped at 30 FPS, which further increases input lag compared to PC (60+ FPS). The game is also less stable in general (FPS drops, animations/models popping in due to slow loading etc. Hopefully next gen update will make the experience better). I think there are some issues with gamepad mode as well, my friend plays on really good PC using Xbox controller and he complains about skills randomly not being registered during rotation.

Interesting, unless your friend is confirmed using a wired controller that could also suggest that wireless controllers might be part of the issue. I hate bluetooth, it always seems so eager to snooze (conserve energy), and wasn't designed with data integrity as a priority. There's a reason wireless pc gaming peripherals use 2.5GHz.

I use a PS4 controller set up so that when it has its USB cord plugged in it’s direct communication and no longer Bluetooth. The game still fails to properly register all attacks and abilities. The other day I was screaming at my controller to bar swap in VVH so I could get my shield up. Constant misses. I’ll add this happens on both my PS4 controller AND PS5 controller.

Malkiv wrote: »

The tutorial has blocking and interrupting as forced checks you must complete to progress, but I very rarely see anyone low level using these in normal dungeons; even some vet dungeons have high CP players ignoring important interrupts and blocks. A majority of people will just go through the motions in a tutorial, then instantly forget what they've learned because the overland/story content simply does not require it. Putting LA weave training in the tutorial is not going to increase the awareness of LA weaving to an extent that is appreciable. More people might be aware, but not practicing since it is not required.

Before I used Street Fighter as an example. Both Street Fighter 4 and 5 have dedicated training modes which not only exemplify attacks, combos, and specials but also examples of how to chain them together. Furthermore the games have visual logs that in real time show your inputs. It’s excellent for training and more importantly informative for the player.

IMO combat dummies are FLAWED. The results are inaccurate and don’t show you enough. PC has combat logs apparently but that feels more like a developer tool than a player utility.

I would put in combat schools to this game, tailored to each class. You could go in, speak to an instructor, and learn what your abilities do. Many games like Legend of Zelda, Okami, etc have these and they’re extremely effective.

You could also add unique combat dummies that better track player attacks and inputs. A smarter decision seeing as players currently base their abilities off a ridiculous high HP trial dummy that buffs. 95% of players don’t want to sit there for several minutes to get an inaccurate number, let alone do it over and over, wasting their time.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Ippokrates wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

A wonderful example of a fun way to design a game, nothing says great time like having to beat on a training dummy for hours at a time for days and weeks to play the most basic aspect of the game. YAY!

You speak the truth. I cannot agree more.

No he isn't.

The most basic aspects of game are interruptions, roll-doging or even using of freaking grapple bow ^^ but weaving is not necesary to enjoy the most of content (maybe some vet dps checks require that amount of burst).

What's a grapple bow? Being able to just burn down whatever is in your way is nice. Being able to bring down those million+ health bosses is nice. I dunno, weaving is not very hard.

I don't block. I'm not there. Being extremely mobile makes this game easier.

Have you never been in Unhallowed Grave? ;p

Yes I have. I remember now. The silly grapple deal.

Malkiv

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Before I used Street Fighter as an example. Both Street Fighter 4 and 5 have dedicated training modes which not only exemplify attacks, combos, and specials but also examples of how to chain them together. Furthermore the games have visual logs that in real time show your inputs. It’s excellent for training and more importantly informative for the player.

IMO combat dummies are FLAWED. The results are inaccurate and don’t show you enough. PC has combat logs apparently but that feels more like a developer tool than a player utility.

I would put in combat schools to this game, tailored to each class. You could go in, speak to an instructor, and learn what your abilities do. Many games like Legend of Zelda, Okami, etc have these and they’re extremely effective.

You could also add unique combat dummies that better track player attacks and inputs. A smarter decision seeing as players currently base their abilities off a ridiculous high HP trial dummy that buffs. 95% of players don’t want to sit there for several minutes to get an inaccurate number, let alone do it over and over, wasting their time.

Combat logs are extremely effective on the PC. Especially when you use something like Combat Metrics. You can get very detailed information about your performance, including (de)buff up-times, crit percentage, LA weave misses, how much time you wasted between attacks, how much total time you wasted between attacks during the fight, and so-on. As long as you understand the information you're looking at, you'll be able to see where you could have done way better and how to improve.

Just to illustrate how detailed and effective combat logs with CMX is, I ran out and killed a world boss. This isn't a parse, or anything special, but just to show what useful information the player can get from combat logs to improve their performance. Click on the pics to open their full size.

Those games you listed have the "instruction schools" because there's only one real way to play the respective character, even if there are multiple weapons and abilities. The class system in ESO is extremely dynamic, and allows for a plethora of effective end-game vTrial builds to be used just for Magcro, for instance. There's no single, ultimate meta build with a single, static rotation - even with parsing. Anyone subscribing to the idea of a single, ultimate meta build is just completely unaware of the game mechanics and group cohesion.

The best you can do - if you want to take the time - is to explain and help a fellow player understand. If they don't want to/can't use LA weaving, that's another thing completely.

katanagirl1

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Huh, 75k dps.

Maybe it’s easy for you. I’ve had several players try to help me and I get less than 1/3 of that. But that’s not on trial dummy because I don’t have one.

Also, I have way better dps than many on my friends list.

It’s not that easy to get the timing so precise. Be happy it is for you but don’t look down on the rest of us.

@katanagirl1
I feel like I'm missing something here. I wasn't looking down on or trying to offend you in any way. I was just trying to relay that weaving gets easier over time(To point, for me), just start off slow. But also build and class synergy and class familiarity are big factors at play. My friend got me to make a magdk, he does 90+k on trial dummy, while I could only pull 30k(after quite a bit of parsing). So comfortability with a class/build is also a huge plus. As for the trial dummy, I hear you, I don't have one either, I'm just lucky enough to have access to one in a guild hall(You are more than welcome to join, it's a housing guild). Also, sorry for the long write up.

No it’s not you, I’m just a bit defensive. I’ve been trying this for years. It just doesn’t work for me (on console).

For one thing, NBs endless hail skill has that 3 sec animation that throws me off on the subsequent light attack. My light attacks often don’t register so I have to do two heavy attacks per rotation. That just kills it. 20k dps on a good day.

I’m done spending time with the training dummy. I’ll just farm furnishing plans.

Everyone assumes I don’t know what to do, but that is not the problem.

I often wonder if the problems people have with responsiveness on console are caused by bluetooth and wifi. Bluetooth between the controller and console, and then wifi between the console and the internet. Most pc players use ethernet and wired mouse/keyboard. But even wireless peripherals on pc are 2.5GHz, no pc gamer would use a bluetooth mouse (afaik). If I played on console I would insist on an ethernet connection at least, and if my controller came with a wire for data I would use it. Console players love the convenience, and part of that convenience is wireless, but pc players traditionally choose wires for a reason. Just a thought, and I know I'm assuming a lot.

I don’t use wi-if, I have a wired connection directly to PS4. I had wi-if in the past and it didn’t really affect gameplay much, just that my downloads took forever.

The game is just horribly laggy and bar swaps sometimes just don’t happen. Skills often don’t work on the first click. Even clicking to interact with NPCs and such often don’t register. I don’t think that we can do anything to improve that.

Stamblade is a tough rotation anyway, with relentless focus not working half the time and I am not able to use it as well as others anyway. From what I hear from guildies, most people just stopped playing stamblades many updates ago when they were nerfed so heavily. I keep soldiering on because it’s my main and I enjoy that type of play for overland activities.

hexnotic

i learned how to la weave on my healer so when i was finally ready to start dpsing it was already a habit

trackdemon5512

Malkiv wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Before I used Street Fighter as an example. Both Street Fighter 4 and 5 have dedicated training modes which not only exemplify attacks, combos, and specials but also examples of how to chain them together. Furthermore the games have visual logs that in real time show your inputs. It’s excellent for training and more importantly informative for the player.

IMO combat dummies are FLAWED. The results are inaccurate and don’t show you enough. PC has combat logs apparently but that feels more like a developer tool than a player utility.

I would put in combat schools to this game, tailored to each class. You could go in, speak to an instructor, and learn what your abilities do. Many games like Legend of Zelda, Okami, etc have these and they’re extremely effective.

You could also add unique combat dummies that better track player attacks and inputs. A smarter decision seeing as players currently base their abilities off a ridiculous high HP trial dummy that buffs. 95% of players don’t want to sit there for several minutes to get an inaccurate number, let alone do it over and over, wasting their time.

Combat logs are extremely effective on the PC. Especially when you use something like Combat Metrics. You can get very detailed information about your performance, including (de)buff up-times, crit percentage, LA weave misses, how much time you wasted between attacks, how much total time you wasted between attacks during the fight, and so-on. As long as you understand the information you're looking at, you'll be able to see where you could have done way better and how to improve.

Just to illustrate how detailed and effective combat logs with CMX is, I ran out and killed a world boss. This isn't a parse, or anything special, but just to show what useful information the player can get from combat logs to improve their performance. Click on the pics to open their full size.

Those games you listed have the "instruction schools" because there's only one real way to play the respective character, even if there are multiple weapons and abilities. The class system in ESO is extremely dynamic, and allows for a plethora of effective end-game vTrial builds to be used just for Magcro, for instance. There's no single, ultimate meta build with a single, static rotation - even with parsing. Anyone subscribing to the idea of a single, ultimate meta build is just completely unaware of the game mechanics and group cohesion.

The best you can do - if you want to take the time - is to explain and help a fellow player understand. If they don't want to/can't use LA weaving, that's another thing completely.

Combat Logs are an issue. They’re basically developer insights for what’s essentially unfinished information. Looking at the combat logs your presented you have data like pings, desync, active times, much of it is actually way too much. Having it broken down via CMX analytics also goes way beyond the point.

Properly implemented you would have an across the board refined UI to review the essential damage data thats easy to understand for every player. The data logs shown on PC aren’t close to that. It’s just raw data that while helpful for some is of no use to the vast majority because they can’t make heads or tails of it.

An instruction school is essential because while the game may be dynamic the cores of those abilities and the classes haven’t changed really. The best way to teach players is to break things down simply, let them ingest, understand, and then string together.

ESO does none of that which is why you have a group of players that vastly outperform the others. The game needs to teach this to them. The idea that people need to go to an outside the game resource to learn core mechanics is ridiculous. That’s a failure on the developer to properly design its product.

When I play Gran Turismo or Forza there are instruction modes that help you to understand. They just don’t throw you to the wolves to learn on your own things you may never come across.

7 years of ESO. ZOS needs to step it up and better instruct players on core mechanics. If it can’t then those mechanics are better off removed because then what’s the point?

kringled_1

Malkiv wrote: »

Combat logs are extremely effective on the PC. Especially when you use something like Combat Metrics. You can get very detailed information about your performance, including (de)buff up-times, crit percentage, LA weave misses, how much time you wasted between attacks, how much total time you wasted between attacks during the fight, and so-on. As long as you understand the information you're looking at, you'll be able to see where you could have done way better and how to improve.

Just to illustrate how detailed and effective combat logs with CMX is, I ran out and killed a world boss. This isn't a parse, or anything special, but just to show what useful information the player can get from combat logs to improve their performance. Click on the pics to open their full size.

The best you can do - if you want to take the time - is to explain and help a fellow player understand. If they don't want to/can't use LA weaving, that's another thing completely.

I'm not trying to dispute the detailed information available via logs and combat metrics on the PC, but when it comes to this particular topic, LA weaving, I have long been under the impression that neither tool actually registers the attempted light attacks that just don't fire. In other words, a lower LA/s count could be from the player just not pressing the button, or the player presses the button at the wrong time and the game just doesn't accept it, and it's difficult to tell the difference in the cmx report. (please correct me if this is wrong).
I don't have a problem with the concept of LA weaving, and I attempt it; but my weave is far from perfect (worse on some classes than others because skill animation timing), and I often don't know exactly what is going wrong. It has not stopped me from completing a lot of hard content, but I would be appreciative of a system with better feedback and more clarity as to the required timings.
Edited to add: it also does not help that the class where I have the most struggles at the moment, magcro, is what I have been asked to run the most often, and here the ZOS default UI actively interferes with proper rotation by graying out blastbones at inappropriate times when it can already be cast again. Every other place I can think of where the UI grays out the skill, it is literally uncastable (out of resources, target not there or out of range, or for Petrify/Rune Cage, target is CC immune.)

poodlemasterb16_ESO

"I have long been under the impression that neither tool actually registers the attempted light attacks that just don't fire."

The big thing about LA that people forget and often have trouble with, is that if you lose target, it won't fire. The skill often will, and people just hammer away.

trackdemon5512

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

"I have long been under the impression that neither tool actually registers the attempted light attacks that just don't fire."

The big thing about LA that people forget and often have trouble with, is that if you lose target, it won't fire. The skill often will, and people just hammer away.

That’s another added frustration. On console it’s natural for fingers to always be on the thumbsticks. That’s just how virtually every game today is designed. As such you can’t just ignore it like a mouse and despite hard targeting you’ll constantly lose stationary targets. Add to that new systems and their controllers, due to the addition of more parts for control precision, are more susceptible to drift and you’ve got added trouble for console owners.

Hexi

The whole ani-cancelling system is garbage. Whether it be by light attacks, blocking or barswapping. A group of people doing it properly looks like a bunch of Parkinsons patients trying to breakdance in addition to being EXHAUSTING. It's why I'll NEVER do trials or Cyrodiil, I simply can't be bothered doing it for longer than a dungeon run, and even that's pushing it.

It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not interesting and it completely breaks the game on a fundamental level simply because half the skills in the game are not worth using because you can't abuse a bug!

It's obviously not intended, but it's a problem with the engine and they simply cannot fix it, so they call it a "feature". It's an embarrassment.

remosito

Hexi wrote: »

The whole ani-cancelling system is garbage. Whether it be by light attacks, blocking or barswapping. A group of people doing it properly looks like a bunch of Parkinsons patients trying to breakdance in addition to being EXHAUSTING. It's why I'll NEVER do trials or Cyrodiil, I simply can't be bothered doing it for longer than a dungeon run, and even that's pushing it.

It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not interesting and it completely breaks the game on a fundamental level simply because half the skills in the game are not worth using because you can't abuse a bug!

It's obviously not intended, but it's a problem with the engine and they simply cannot fix it, so they call it a "feature". It's an embarrassment.

Been wondering lately if LA doing the damage only at end of animation would improve the situation.

Leave ani cancel in to be able to react fast. But if you do cancel LA. No dmg. Lower ceiling.

LA would have to be buffed as it would now compete with skills for cast time. Which would help the floor. Well.. the LA spamming side of the floor at least.

A real raise floor, lower ceiling solution. That should be much easier to implement in engine than trying to remove animation canceling alltogether. And would still make it possible to react to events fast. especially in pvp.

zvavi

remosito wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

The whole ani-cancelling system is garbage. Whether it be by light attacks, blocking or barswapping. A group of people doing it properly looks like a bunch of Parkinsons patients trying to breakdance in addition to being EXHAUSTING. It's why I'll NEVER do trials or Cyrodiil, I simply can't be bothered doing it for longer than a dungeon run, and even that's pushing it.

It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not interesting and it completely breaks the game on a fundamental level simply because half the skills in the game are not worth using because you can't abuse a bug!

It's obviously not intended, but it's a problem with the engine and they simply cannot fix it, so they call it a "feature". It's an embarrassment.

Been wondering lately if LA doing the damage only at end of animation would improve the situation.

Leave ani cancel in to be able to react fast. But if you do cancel LA. No dmg. Lower ceiling.

LA would have to be buffed as it would now compete with skills for cast time. Which would help the floor. Well.. the LA spamming side of the floor at least.

A real raise floor, lower ceiling solution. That should be much easier to implement in engine than trying to remove animation canceling alltogether. And would still make it possible to react to events fast. especially in pvp.

So making the timing for light attack+skill harder and more prone to lag will lower the ceiling? Please think about it for a moment... It will lower floor while ceiling stays the same...

remosito

zvavi wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

The whole ani-cancelling system is garbage. Whether it be by light attacks, blocking or barswapping. A group of people doing it properly looks like a bunch of Parkinsons patients trying to breakdance in addition to being EXHAUSTING. It's why I'll NEVER do trials or Cyrodiil, I simply can't be bothered doing it for longer than a dungeon run, and even that's pushing it.

It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not interesting and it completely breaks the game on a fundamental level simply because half the skills in the game are not worth using because you can't abuse a bug!

It's obviously not intended, but it's a problem with the engine and they simply cannot fix it, so they call it a "feature". It's an embarrassment.

Been wondering lately if LA doing the damage only at end of animation would improve the situation.

Leave ani cancel in to be able to react fast. But if you do cancel LA. No dmg. Lower ceiling.

LA would have to be buffed as it would now compete with skills for cast time. Which would help the floor. Well.. the LA spamming side of the floor at least.

A real raise floor, lower ceiling solution. That should be much easier to implement in engine than trying to remove animation canceling alltogether. And would still make it possible to react to events fast. especially in pvp.

So making the timing for light attack+skill harder and more prone to lag will lower the ceiling? Please think about it for a moment... It will lower floor while ceiling stays the same...

if interrupted la does not do damage... la weaving as we know it is dead... so the ceiling looses pretty much all the la damage they can squeeze out of interrupted la weaving....

zvavi

remosito wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

The whole ani-cancelling system is garbage. Whether it be by light attacks, blocking or barswapping. A group of people doing it properly looks like a bunch of Parkinsons patients trying to breakdance in addition to being EXHAUSTING. It's why I'll NEVER do trials or Cyrodiil, I simply can't be bothered doing it for longer than a dungeon run, and even that's pushing it.

It's not fun, it's not engaging, it's not interesting and it completely breaks the game on a fundamental level simply because half the skills in the game are not worth using because you can't abuse a bug!

It's obviously not intended, but it's a problem with the engine and they simply cannot fix it, so they call it a "feature". It's an embarrassment.

Been wondering lately if LA doing the damage only at end of animation would improve the situation.

Leave ani cancel in to be able to react fast. But if you do cancel LA. No dmg. Lower ceiling.

LA would have to be buffed as it would now compete with skills for cast time. Which would help the floor. Well.. the LA spamming side of the floor at least.

A real raise floor, lower ceiling solution. That should be much easier to implement in engine than trying to remove animation canceling alltogether. And would still make it possible to react to events fast. especially in pvp.

So making the timing for light attack+skill harder and more prone to lag will lower the ceiling? Please think about it for a moment... It will lower floor while ceiling stays the same...

if interrupted la does not do damage... la weaving as we know it is dead... so the ceiling looses pretty much all the la damage they can squeeze out of interrupted la weaving....

And la spammers lose all their damage, only those who perfectly execute elemental weapon with a light attack get any damage out of it, everything becomes more laggy because now server will request additional checkbox of if animation even happened from client side (which will never happen on weaker computers with worse net), and the laggier the instance the less damage everyone do.

Your "idea" is literally -get rid of light attack weaving for everyone that doesn't live on the servers and has a dedicated gaming computer, and add lag to everyone-

Additionally, the ceiling will "lose" as much damage from it as the floor, since the endgame floor does try to light attack weave.

You could theoretically put light attacks on the same GCD as skills, but this is entirely different from what you said...

Avoranti

Kel wrote: »

I switched to PC from ps4 recently, and I can tell you from experience that LA weaving is a chore at best on console. I'd say 35% of the time, your LA doesn't even register. The difference on PC is not to be taken lightly, as it's massive.

Played with a fast internet and wired connection on both, but still LA weaving on console is very very hit or miss.

Really wish ZoS would do away with these sets or add to the timer to be more forgiving for console players.

I haven’t made the switch but can certainly say after hours and hours of watching PC dps test for stamina Templar’s on YouTube that PS4 parsing is 100% borked. First, the lag is severe, no matter how good your connection is. Then, for templars, jabs are the jankiest skill on the bar and weaving (on PS4) just turns into jab spam because the LA’s aren’t going off, and if you slow down your character does the LA like it just pitched a strike but it’s in slow motion. If you’re like me using the bow’s hail of arrows skill, sometimes the character does the animation but no arrows fall. If you’re using ritual of retribution, sometimes it double cast spite only pressing the button once. Same with Trap Beast. And lately, for me, my weapons just disappear completely, only during a dps test.

I have guild mates who are having similar issues with their magcrow’s. Blastbones not going off, or just standing around enjoying the breeze.

In my opinion there is an extreme disconnect between dps on pc vs PS4. I’m not sure if the trial dummy is calculating damage properly or if our characters aren’t getting all the stats we are spec’d for? But something is very different in the visual comparisons. From the handful of people on PS4 I’ve talked to about this, they ALL are hitting about 20k less on average than what’s being achieved on PC using same or similar builds. I’ve also noticed in viewing dungeon runs from PC groups vs console that the burn is significantly different. PC seems to be able to burn through content rather quickly while on PS4 not so easily.

I’ve been trying to find more evidence to support my theory that something is broken on PS4 but mostly just get comments from PC players saying it’s my rotation that’s the problem or I’m just bad at the game.