Does anyone else wish that proc based damage sets would just get dunked on with a big nerf?

AgentUriel

I'm just tired of seeing the same sets being worn. The malacath ring nerf was a start but come on we can do better! Nerf them by 25% and reduce the scaling please.

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

Look maybe I'm the minority here but I actually enjoy pvp, and I like thinking up cool builds with unique playstyles. Personally the biggest headache for me is random damage coming out of nowhere at the same time with little to no difficulty. I'm not calling out nightblades by that I mean I'm calling out the procs. You know it. I know it. Can't we just sink this ship before it causes any more damage/distaste for pvp?

PvP in ESO deserves better.

Rahar

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

While I feel for the PvE crowd and don't really have a clean solution for pleasing both sides, this is an opinion poll and I'm all for nerfing them down, hard.

xylena_lazarow

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

PvP healing procs need to be dumpstered too, Earthgore deleted from Cyro outright.

Lughlongarm

Scaling is the way to go, they just need to twik the formula.

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Scaling is the way to go, they just need to twik the formula.

Increase the requirements from 5,800ish to, what, 7,500? Sounds good to me.

Edit: to spell damage/weapon damage for proc scaling on sets

Lughlongarm

AgentUriel wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Scaling is the way to go, they just need to twik the formula.

Increase the requirements from 5,800ish to, what, 7,500? Sounds good to me.

I wrote it in another thread, I like this approach better.

"Why not just go with the same damage Formula every skill in the game is based of ?
a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+c (where a, b, and c are coefficients) . Make coefficients so that 5,000 SD/WD AND 35K Magicka/Stamina will result with the same tooltip we have on live.

this will make scaling much more reasonable and reduce potential abuses. It will also make things much coherence and easy to understand.

Regarding sets that scales out of max HP or Resistances - They should really reconsider. The all point was to avoid tanky builds with high proc damage. Perhaps they need to a specific formula to tanky sets :

a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d(with different coefficients ).
It will make health a way to increase damage but not to the point you can forget your other stats."

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

@Lughlongarm that was a much better answer than I was expecting. Yes. Yessssss. Glass cannon only if you want the damage. This is the way.

ResidentContrarian

I do not wish to destroy proc sets, but a proc set should never be able to exceed the performance of stat-based skills, heals, or class utility.

When you have to sacrifice everything to do 8k damage in PvP, and a guy with a slotted piece of gear light attacks and does 12k with a proc with the same effective cooldown interval and expends no resources+ can have it proc will blocking, cloaking, or even standing still doing nothing, then there is a problem with the sets that enable such gameplay.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PvP healing procs need to be dumpstered too, Earthgore deleted from Cyro outright.

Agreed, the function to purge, heal, and then remove ground effects is ridiculous and a hard carry for ball groups. There is no counter to ball groups (ground snares) when Earthgore exists and they can simply stack it.

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

@ResidentContrarian something has been bugging me about proc sets after @Lughlongarm mentioned the scaling and I think I've figured out the problem for myself. Basically a typical pvp scenario would be someone attack and someone doing their best to defend against that attacker. Sometimes the attacker gets too much damage off too fast and the "defender" just dies. Other times the defender has a good amount of defensive stats, or technique (roll dodge/block) that they can get the upper hand and attack themselves hopefully winning the fight/duel.

The problem with procs isn't that they necessarily exist the issue is time. What do I mean? Let me explain.... All proper dps in this game for pve understand the gcd for abilities. 1 ability/spell per second. Simple. Do animation cancels and you can get off a light attack, realistically, just about every ability cast in that 1 second. Now the problem with this in pvp, with proc damage sets, is that they override this gcd timer. If I am wearing/using 1,2,3 proc sets I can realistically at least double how many "damaging abilities" are cast per second. In other words more "burst".

How many times have people thought after getting tethered by zaans, vateshran destro staff and damaged by at the same time other abilities "omg my health bar disappeared!". Time that's the real issue. Lol call it a time hack of the gcd and with less time the opponent/defender has less time to actually react effectively no matter the skill level. The only real counter is to group up, slow down, play more defensively or just plain use the proc meta to your advantage yourself.

If many people are doing it then that is Meta and not admitting there is a Meta will only kill one side of the end game (pvp) and make people only do trials/vet dungeons/housing content for end game if that. Not to mention unhealthy dueling experiences. If the poison/potion system can be reworked due to abuse of power (among other things over the years) than so can procs and giving them favorable scaling is not the answer.

TL;DR procs, imo, are a time hack to spam damage and I don't think they should hit as hard as normal abilities to inflate burst in pvp.

Ratzkifal

No I like watching the world burn!

Biased poll and no "other" option. What really needs to happen, since ZOS went for the approach of having proc sets scale, is that every single proc set gets evaluated and its ideal scaling factor determined.

Ashen Grip is not the same as Vicious Death. Why should they have the same scaling factor?

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

@Ratzkifal I don't normally post on here I'm more of a reader. Thinking about it now I should have given an other option on it. You're correct about that and I'm sorry. However, while my poll is biased, the better observation is why? Procs with help of malacath have made playing bgs really less fun (for a whole year) and my point made above of temporarily hacking gcd still stands.

That being said procs should be individually scaled based on overall effectiveness/impact/risk in using them. I'd be interested to see what that would be like.

Wolf_Eye

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

Everyone is saying that damage from proc sets is off the charts, and I'm just confused.

Because my proc set is Ilambris, and it was severely nerfed. The tooltip for Ilambris on PTS says its around 600 less damage than on live. I'm Dark Elf Mag Sorc race and the only way to get back to live stats (2105 damage total) for the Ilambris tooltip is to sacrifice Mother's Sorrow for New Moon Acolyte and also equip False God's in addition to the monster set. And switch Thief for the Apprentice.

In other words, if they were intending this to be a way of forcing players to choose between crit and raw damage, I would say they succeeded.

If this was their way of saying "No matter how much fun you find them, monster sets are garbage and you must toss them in the trash in favor of the latest flavor of mythic" then I suppose that they succeeded in that too.

I have the same damage on my Ilambris as on live (Using a shock staff. Flame staff is still underperforming by about 100 damage)
But about 400 less magicka recovery (because I had to switch my magicka regen glyphs on my jewelry for spell damage)
And lot less crit chance (around 10% loss EDIT: It's actually MORE because I forgot to figure in Mother's Sorrow So much much MORE than 10% loss)

So in other words, overall I am weaker and I've definitely been nerfed.

But everyone is acting like this is a boost instead of a nerf so I can't help but ask: "What am I missing here?"

What exactly are you all using?

Anyron

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Everyone is saying that damage from proc sets is off the charts, and I'm just confused.

Because my proc set is Ilambris, and it was severely nerfed. The tooltip for Ilambris on PTS says its around 600 less damage than on live. I'm Dark Elf Mag Sorc race and the only way to get back to live stats (2105 damage total) for the Ilambris tooltip is to sacrifice Mother's Sorrow for New Moon Acolyte and also equip False God's in addition to the monster set. And switch Thief for the Apprentice.

In other words, if they were intending this to be a way of forcing players to choose between crit and raw damage, I would say they succeeded.

If this was their way of saying "No matter how much fun you find them, monster sets are garbage and you must toss them in the trash in favor of the latest flavor of mythic" then I suppose that they succeeded in that too.

I have the same damage on my Ilambris as on live (Using a shock staff. Flame staff is still underperforming by about 100 damage)
But about 400 less magicka recovery (because I had to switch my magicka regen glyphs on my jewelry for spell damage)
And lot less crit chance (around 10% loss EDIT: It's actually MORE because I forgot to figure in Mother's Sorrow So much much MORE than 10% loss)

So in other words, overall I am weaker and I've definitely been nerfed.

But everyone is acting like this is a boost instead of a nerf so I can't help but ask: "What am I missing here?"

What exactly are you all using?

Magsorc isnt good example for this.. Most damage proc sets are scaling from spell dmg and for shields you need max mag . Procs are being insanely op while playing stamina builds because they can stack w.d way better because of armor, fighters guild and vateshran 2h

Btw are you really using mothers sorrow for PvP? In pve procs are fine, changes are needed in PvP

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

https://youtu.be/lQdKdNWGXFE
@Anyron

Brrrofski

Just nerf the 5 or 6 that are problematic. Then think carefully about new ones that's they introduce.

They're doing this whole rework and all they actually need to do it listen to people when PTS comes out be sure every set that people complain about is pointed out in PTS. But ZOS ignore everyone's feedback, so not even sure what the point of it is?

The scaling idea might have been good, but again it shows how out of touch with their game they are. Like how did they not see how high people would be able to push these numbers.

I took one look at the patch notes and thought "surely it must cap out at numbers on live, otherwise I can think of numerous ways to push a lot of these sets to disgusting high numbers".

Nope, they continue to scale. So how do people who supposedly balance the game not able to see that you'll be able to get absurdly high numbers???

At this point I actually think ZOS are trying to push people away from PvP entirely, so they can just focus on new zones and quests to bring new, casual players in. Between performance getting worse, lack of content, lack of direction, constant massive changes to the game and bad decisions on how to solve problems (sometimes they do half listen, but what they implement rarely hits the mark), PvP is becoming boring and frustrating.

Xbox EU last night at 7pm has 1 bar each faction in Cyrodiil. I'm sorry, but that is woeful.

Wolf_Eye

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

Anyron wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Everyone is saying that damage from proc sets is off the charts, and I'm just confused.

Because my proc set is Ilambris, and it was severely nerfed. The tooltip for Ilambris on PTS says its around 600 less damage than on live. I'm Dark Elf Mag Sorc race and the only way to get back to live stats (2105 damage total) for the Ilambris tooltip is to sacrifice Mother's Sorrow for New Moon Acolyte and also equip False God's in addition to the monster set. And switch Thief for the Apprentice.

In other words, if they were intending this to be a way of forcing players to choose between crit and raw damage, I would say they succeeded.

If this was their way of saying "No matter how much fun you find them, monster sets are garbage and you must toss them in the trash in favor of the latest flavor of mythic" then I suppose that they succeeded in that too.

I have the same damage on my Ilambris as on live (Using a shock staff. Flame staff is still underperforming by about 100 damage)
But about 400 less magicka recovery (because I had to switch my magicka regen glyphs on my jewelry for spell damage)
And lot less crit chance (around 10% loss EDIT: It's actually MORE because I forgot to figure in Mother's Sorrow So much much MORE than 10% loss)

So in other words, overall I am weaker and I've definitely been nerfed.

But everyone is acting like this is a boost instead of a nerf so I can't help but ask: "What am I missing here?"

What exactly are you all using?

Magsorc isnt good example for this.. Most damage proc sets are scaling from spell dmg and for shields you need max mag . Procs are being insanely op while playing stamina builds because they can stack w.d way better because of armor, fighters guild and vateshran 2h

Btw are you really using mothers sorrow for PvP? In pve procs are fine, changes are needed in PvP

No, I almost never PvP, so the Mothers Sorrow was being used for PvE.

I was trying to resist giving up my Ilambris for more crit (because crit is king in the PvE world), but I really hoping not to. It's a fun set, and it's fun to watch mobs get rained on by fireballs, but if it's going to be nerfed into uselessness...

...I don't know, it just feels painful to have to toss my favorite monster set in the trash, you know what I mean? And I guess I'm a little tired of being told that only Mother's Sorrow is important for PvE magicka builds and everything else should be trash. It makes me feel like I don't have a choice in a game that claims to be about choices. Because if given the option to choose more damage versus less, who would ever choose less? That's not a choice at all.

But it makes more sense that the overpowered-ness is coming from stam and from a PvP environment. I understand that it would not be fair for players to be too OP in Cyrodiil. But...it is also a little worrisome when I see a lot of people calling for more nerfs when I already feel like I'm being nerfed. This, coupled with the CP nerfs....I hope it's understandable why I'm just a little bit bitter at the direction the game is going.

And this is one of those things where I really wish ZOS would consider separating PvP and PvE a little bit more so that we wouldn't HAVE to try and balance both at the same time. Time and time again, I think it's proven that the sort of builds that would be considered acceptable, balanced, and fair are just not the same in PvP versus PvE; trying to handle the balance on both simultaneously makes it feel like you're attempting to shove a square peg into a round hole. You're always going to end up with a subpar result that satisfies neither party.

Anyron

AgentUriel wrote: »

https://youtu.be/lQdKdNWGXFE
@Anyron

Yeah i know.. I wasnt even talking about health procsets thats just ridiculous .. I was just answering question about magsorc.. Because in way how proc sets work now sorc really isnt in good situation. Shields need to scale from spell dmg too.. Now they are scaling only from max magicka which is severely limiting in doing good builds
But nwm my PvP days are gone anyway im not going back to this
No proc set cyro is fine, but just for few weeks before it gets boring

MashmalloMan

No I like watching the world burn!

Biased pole as usual for the forums, which just hurts your case of providing an actual reasonable aruement for ZOS to follow through with any of the changes you wish to see happen.

I like proc sets, just not when they're overperforming.

We only have 12 possible skill slots and 2-4 possible set combination slots. Maybe this is just me, but focussing on statistic based sets or multipliers is just frankly boring to me from a build theory crafting standpoint. Everything starts to feel very samey.

Just take a look at Cyro, was the idea to stop using proc sets for a few updates a good one while they address some concerns? Yes. Did they take it too far? Yes.

I use to watch build videos for pvp all the time, not really because I actually wanted to use them, but because they were interesting just to see what people come up with. Seeing different synergies between sets and how you can take 1 of 6 classes to better utilize that set combination was fun.

Now what do we see? "OKAY Guys, I have this totally OP broken build for you today. Watch me 1vX a bunch of potatoes with Shacklebreaker + Drauger Hulk! This is my stam sorc with Dizzy, Hurricane, Executioner, etc, etc."

The difference between everyones builds have become carbon copies of each other. There is no theory crafting, there is no interesting set combinations, it's just.. look for the set that adds the most weapon damage or stamina. To me.. thats boring AF with an already limited list of options for class or skills that feel like must haves. Sets serve as a way to augment how we play.

Solution to the problems of proc sets:

• Malacath, fixed, check. Good idea.
• Proc set scaling, check. Good idea, bad execution.
  • Adjust proc set scaling to include max resource in it's equation, by pulling from 2 sources, you're investment into 1 (damage in most cases seeing as people aim for 30-35k resources) will be diluted.
  • Adjust Medium and Light armor to give 1% weapon/spell damage and 470 physical/spell resistance per piece instead of Medium getting 2% per piece and light armor getting 939 per piece. Hell.. they could even go with a flat value damage instead like 45 weapon/spell damage and 470 pen (balanced based on concentration passive and 1-4 piece standards).
    
    This kills the imbalance issues for pvp proc set scaling favouring Medium armor, while also killing the imbalance issues causing Stamina pve groups to be completely dead due to not being able to reliably hit the 18.2k pen cap.
  • Adjust proc set scaling so it's not a linear increase in power, but a punishing diminishing returns level of growth.
    • For the best example, think about CP 1.0, most people would invest about 50-65 points in 1 star which gave about 70-80% of the power. The remaining 50-45 points spent had less value, but still offered room for growth.
    • Using that mentality, imagine the balance was 6k weapon or spell damage still (although like I said, it should be a combined value between damage and resources). Lets say at that level, a proc set has a 10k damage tooltip. Instead of allowing a person to get 9k weapon damage for a 15k damage tooltip or 50% increase in power.. adjust it so that 3k weapon damage after the threshold is only worth a 10% increase for 11k damage tooltip.

heng14rwb17_ESO

In order to reach full damage of proc set:
weapon dmg 9850.
spell dmg 4250.

This should be the correct value ZOS should set.

YandereGirlfriend

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

50% Battle Spirit nerf to proc set damage - problem instantly solved!

TeruKisuke

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

I don’t really have an opinion on the specifics. I just hope they don’t nerf stuff into the ground for PVE because content is already hard/time consuming enough as it is. But, on a particular note:

I sympathize with you PvP people, but visually I think proc sets are more interesting and add flavor to gameplay instead of just stat boosts that never come into play visually or have actual animations that come out. You can nerf them for pvp and that’s fine. The thing is that I think they’re the only things keeping combat from boring me out of my mind in this game from a roleplay perspective.

I don’t think this would actually happen in a million years, but it would be cool if we could just choose visual effects for our attacks to take. Similar to weapon enchantments, if lightning-themed weapons spewed lightning on heavy attacks, or our class abilities got an extra kick to them visually based on the items we wear. Extra customization, sure, and it’d never happen, but I’ve been surprised before.

divnyi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

50% Battle Spirit nerf to proc set damage - problem instantly solved!

Well 50% is heavy, but I can totally see 70- 80% of current value to make PvE happy and PvP not broken.

And diminishing returns after a point where you hit original value.

MashmalloMan

No I like watching the world burn!

divnyi wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

50% Battle Spirit nerf to proc set damage - problem instantly solved!

Well 50% is heavy, but I can totally see 70- 80% of current value to make PvE happy and PvP not broken.

And diminishing returns after a point where you hit original value.

Yes.

Varana

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

I really should've chosen "I don't care about PvP". I do, but we all know where this incessant whining will lead to: PvE will be nerfed, and PvP will find ways to abuse the system whatever it is.
I mean, can you just leave Earthgore in peace? You've basically killed it already, it's not necessary to trample on its corpse. Or most monster sets - sure, everyone can go double-crit, but that's the equivalent of the no-proc situation: Hundreds of monster sets, and they're all sh**.
At this point, I'm against all attempts at a solution that don't specifically take all PvE roles into account. If there can't be found one, I don't care about PvP if I had to choose.

Faylestar

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

I like them being relevant in PvE more than I ever care about them in PvP

Anyron

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

50% Battle Spirit nerf to proc set damage - problem instantly solved!

Thats not solution at all. What you said is exactly that lazy solution Zo$ will come with.

If you have someone stacking 9k weapon damage (maximum reachable value) to deal 60k damage (just example) and you have someone stacking 6k spell damage(maximum) to do 40k damage then -50% to damage still leaves huge gap between spell damage and weapon damage stacking.
This stacking cant be same for both types of damage because they have different sources. One is easier to stack while other Isn't

And i am not even talking about health/resistance based sets. Why should tank deal same damage as glasscannon, while tank has insane resistances while glasscannon is.. well glasscannon.


Adjust how much spell and weapon damage you need for sets to reach maximum damage and cap that damage on value of procsets on live.
Remove health/resistance based sets

This way there will be proc scaling without way to increase its damage. Build that stacks health will have to invest into damage to reach original value.

Amarthiul

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

For PvE I like that they will scale off your stats. I use proc sets on most DD characters because it's more interesting than the usual samey boring sets that everyone runs on every character, and getting a buff so they sit closer to the meta is a good thing. Anything that provides more variety.

PvP is another matter entirely and definitely needs to be sorted properly but I hate that fixing PvP will most likely negatively affect PvE, unless the balancing is separate which I don't think they'll do.

LeonAkando

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

Nuke proc sets out of existence? Basically what has already happened multiple times over because of PVP's influence on PVE. Can't really get any worse. Monster sets may be sort of saved with the change, may still be worthless.

AgentUriel

Yes nerf (mostly) free damage

Curious thing here but I keep hearing pvp affects pve and its terrible for the game. Just going to point this out but because of end game trial groups on pc I can't use my set in pvp like I could because it's considered a "prebuff" set. You all know what I mean that with the right add-ons you could prebuff yourself and then switch gear in a second to start a fight for more dps. Btw the set that I have to now switch that I had golded out was Undaunted Unweaver. Before flames patch came out I could buff in sneak and get the jump on ppl with an overload build with bonus damage before having to "be in combat".

Just an example that personally angers me where the pve community has changed the game for me as a pvper. It's not one sided guys...

jecks33

Keep pvp and pve changes separate

I don't like nerfs. In a way or another nerfs always hit pve.