Should ZOS implement the CP changes as they currently stand on PTS?

WhyMustItBe · April 2021

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

ZOS is making one of the cardinal mistakes of human psychology: Giving people something, then taking it away. It has been proven that it is better to just not give people anything at all, then to give them even the impression of having and then losing.

That said I also feel their purpose for doing it is fundamentally flawed. They should not be trying to make the PROGRESSION system treat new and old alike. That is why it is a progression system.

Look at WoW for example. When you buy a new expansion, you have to go through the process of leveling to cap again. If you are a new player, you have to level all the way from level 1. There is no "lets completely redesign levels so that new players start off with raid tier power" in other games.

What ZOS needs to do is set a threshold of CP where you have 90% of power and just tell new players "it is unreasonable to expect to buy the game and just jump in to raids. EVERYONE has to level, just like in wow. But once you hit say, CP1480, you will basically have all the power that people who have invested time since launch have."

By setting an actual goal rather than constantly moving back the finish line, you avoid all of the aforementioned psychological problems. I don't know why ZOS gets these ideas in their head they have to make things easier for new players, but it is fairly unprecedented in MMO history and seems a little self-destructive.

EVERYONE has to put in the time to level up. PERIOD.

EDIT: Besides, they already scale up XP gains for low level players so they level faster, and have the Enlightenment system. I don't think we really need to bend over any further backwards to make the leveling process fair. Just bump up the lower part of the XP gain boost so the leveling takes proportionally as long as it does in other games.

EDIT EDIT: An added bonus is you don't burn out old players sweeping the rug out from under their time investment, and hold on to new players longer as they don't just jump into end-game, get burned out and leave before even trying any of the quest content you spent years creating.

Goregrinder · April 2021

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

Jeremy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sangwyne wrote: »

For those unaware, Update 30 is bringing changes to the CP rework that landed last update. According to ZOS, this change was based on overwhelming amounts of feedback from players that the current CP system still had too much vertical progression and unfairly penalized lower-CP players. The relevant passage from the PTS is as follows.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Of critical importance is the last line, stating that the maximum power of the CP system will be brought down, rather than bringing the lower end up. The intent seems to be to level the playing field for players of all CP levels. However, from posts and comments on the forums, as well as general sentiment in game, it seems as though very few players actually agree with this change. I would like to see if this measure is as popular as claimed, and offer a chance for players that support it to offer their rationale as to why they do so. Hopefully, the results of this poll will give ZOS better insight into the number of players that agree with either side.

I'm confused.

Isn't that the whole point of Champion Points, to have "vertical progression"? What other kind of progression is there? If you go backwards that's not progression, it's regression. They either need to embrace the CP system wholly and accept that its purpose is to make your character stronger or just scrap the whole system entirely. Because I for one am sick of having my character yo-yoed back and forth while they try to figure out what kind of "progression" they want to have. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf.... it's endless at this point and I believe it's become their new and official way of "progressing" the game. They literally intend to just keep buffing and nerfing us for the rest of this game's life while pretending like that's "progression" when in reality they're just keeping us roughly the same.

Vertical would be going up, while horizontal would be going left or right. Basically side-grades rather than upgrades. So a horizontal progression would be the other options besides vertical progression. Much like how the gear in ESO uses a horizontal progression, so everything (mostly) has the same power level, they just do different things. So the player chooses what they wear based on what they are trying to achieve without worrying about power levels. I think the CP 2.0 system is trying to achieve that, where everything is more of a side grade based on what the player needs, they just need to keep tuning CP until they reach that goal.

Inhuman003 · April 2021

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Yes, a new constellation should or needs to be added to CP's like the Seeker.

WhyMustItBe · April 2021

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vertical would be going up, while horizontal would be going left or right. Basically side-grades rather than upgrades. So a horizontal progression would be the other options besides vertical progression. Much like how the gear in ESO uses a horizontal progression, so everything (mostly) has the same power level, they just do different things. So the player chooses what they wear based on what they are trying to achieve without worrying about power levels. I think the CP 2.0 system is trying to achieve that, where everything is more of a side grade based on what the player needs, they just need to keep tuning CP until they reach that goal.

IMHO this should be something completely separate from the vertical progression system of CP. In other games you have factions. Think Furbolg grinding in WoW (for a terrible and outdated example LOL). You have all these lands now, all this massive map, where is the creative inspiration to start making random events, random tribes, random factions you can progress with and unlock things like cosmetics, ability skins, and other unique horizontal customization options?

I have been asking for this sort of content for years. It seems there just isn't the incentive to invest in it.

Goregrinder · April 2021

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

show previous quotes

Goregrinder wrote: »

Vertical would be going up, while horizontal would be going left or right. Basically side-grades rather than upgrades. So a horizontal progression would be the other options besides vertical progression. Much like how the gear in ESO uses a horizontal progression, so everything (mostly) has the same power level, they just do different things. So the player chooses what they wear based on what they are trying to achieve without worrying about power levels. I think the CP 2.0 system is trying to achieve that, where everything is more of a side grade based on what the player needs, they just need to keep tuning CP until they reach that goal.

IMHO this should be something completely separate from the vertical progression system of CP. In other games you have factions. Think Furbolg grinding in WoW (for a terrible and outdated example LOL). You have all these lands now, all this massive map, where is the creative inspiration to start making random events, random tribes, random factions you can progress with and unlock things like cosmetics, ability skins, and other unique horizontal customization options?

I have been asking for this sort of content for years. It seems there just isn't the incentive to invest in it.

I think having some form of vertical progression, or the carrot on the stick as they say, has a place in every MMORPG. But I think for ESO, vertical progression that involves a player's power level must be kept in check, otherwise it experiences the same problem all MMORPG's that last 5+ years experience...power creep.

The fortunate thing about ESO, is that most of a player's level of success is at their finger tips, rather than on the math on their character sheet and the game's invisible die rolls. I'd prefer to see ESO keep it that way.

jssriot · April 2021

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

I voted incorrectly because i just woke up, forgot to put on my glasses and misread the choices.

What I think is if we must have this new CP system, don't go changing it every other month. I mean, aside from the fact that it shows ZOS had little foresight when they created this new system, which makes them look incompetent, it breeds frustration and confusion among the playerbase. Players don't want to rebuild their toons over and over. We want to be able to play the game. So leave it for now at least.

And if changes must happen down the line, then don't penalize top-end players for having worked to get there.

crystal_coppolab14_ESO wrote: »

I feel everyone I talk to just has issues with sustain AND THE GREEN TREE. Too many actives, not enough passives, too many points, etc. But that's just us. \o/

And penetration--that's a big issue for a lot of players, probably more than those who know it's a problem. And when you work around the pen issue, you can run into more sustain issues, which means for a lot of players, their toons are in a bad place, because not everyone plays Bretons and Orc and has passives that help them out here. It's a fustercluck for sure and making top end players less powerful will not fix it.

Mumbles_the_Tank · April 2021

"Goregrinder wrote: »

I think having some form of vertical progression, or the carrot on the stick as they say, has a place in every MMORPG. But I think for ESO, vertical progression that involves a player's power level must be kept in check, otherwise it experiences the same problem all MMORPG's that last 5+ years experience...power creep.

This premise is flawed when applied to the Champion System.

1.0 was massively front loaded and put on hold for years. During that exact same time period without “progression” we experienced some of the largest gains in terms of power creep. Most of it from gear, some from bad skill/passive changes (feedback always ignored), and the rest from Necros existing.

None of those contributors went away with 2.0s release. Blackwood is bringing its own slew of new gear that will likely push damage higher yet again despite these further 2.0 CP nerfs.

So - your belief that the top end must be brought down will never be realized. All that will result is CP as it is on Blackwood - becomes a very underwhelming and poorly designed excuse for XP to exist after 50 and a nuisance gold sink for low-mid CP players. Half the passive stats are now so weak they may as well not exist in the current PTS iteration. It’s an absolute absurdity for supposed progression to be this irrelevant long term.

That’s pretty much it - there’s no real progression after 50s baked in stats. There is only the eternal gear grind treadmill that has always existed and has most often been the largest contributor to power creep.

ZOS doesn’t share your distaste for it by the way - they know full well the promise of farmable creep is what sells every single DLC and expansion for many players.

heaven13 · April 2021

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

jssriot wrote: »

I voted incorrectly because i just woke up, forgot to put on my glasses and misread the choices.

What I think is if we must have this new CP system, don't go changing it every other month. I mean, aside from the fact that it shows ZOS had little foresight when they created this new system, which makes them look incompetent, it breeds frustration and confusion among the playerbase. Players don't want to rebuild their toons over and over. We want to be able to play the game. So leave it for now at least.

It's such a bad look that ZoS spent TWO YEARS working on 2.0 only to go "hey, you know, it wasn't actually ready yet and we need to tweak numbers further even though we just rolled it out". I would have rather it sat on PTS longer in a not-ready-for-release state giving them more time to tweak and actually listen to feedback than have released it and then nerfed 3 months later. [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Sahidom · April 2021

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

I don't disagree with the changes. It hurts all my character's with the 50% reduction on non-slotted stars; but this also increases the valuation of the slotted stars benefits. The immediate read on the PTS is about "free" damage or healing from CP and proc sets; where you have to build into the benefits.

Kidgangster101 · April 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sangwyne wrote: »

For those unaware, Update 30 is bringing changes to the CP rework that landed last update. According to ZOS, this change was based on overwhelming amounts of feedback from players that the current CP system still had too much vertical progression and unfairly penalized lower-CP players. The relevant passage from the PTS is as follows.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Of critical importance is the last line, stating that the maximum power of the CP system will be brought down, rather than bringing the lower end up. The intent seems to be to level the playing field for players of all CP levels. However, from posts and comments on the forums, as well as general sentiment in game, it seems as though very few players actually agree with this change. I would like to see if this measure is as popular as claimed, and offer a chance for players that support it to offer their rationale as to why they do so. Hopefully, the results of this poll will give ZOS better insight into the number of players that agree with either side.

I'm confused.

Isn't that the whole point of Champion Points, to have "vertical progression"? What other kind of progression is there? If you go backwards that's not progression, it's regression. They either need to embrace the CP system wholly and accept that its purpose is to make your character stronger or just scrap the whole system entirely. Because I for one am sick of having my character yo-yoed back and forth while they try to figure out what kind of "progression" they want to have. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf.... it's endless at this point and I believe it's become their new and official way of "progressing" the game. They literally intend to just keep buffing and nerfing us for the rest of this game's life while pretending like that's "progression" when in reality they're just keeping us roughly the same.

Sometimes power creep is too high and things need to be rolled back. It is terrible as a game designer when you have to make content for someone that has 70+k dps compared to some people that can't get above 15+k dps.....

Legit look at ff14 for example. Tanks had 200k hp...... Moves were hitting bosses for 100k+. The dev team actually said calculating numbers that large actually put a strain on the server (that sounds familiar here hmmm.......) and now they are literally squashing a their stats in next expansion. It was either 1/4 or 1/2 I forget how much they are keeping.

Sometimes things are too much (and yes as new players enter they see they need to get to 50 then grind out 1400+ cp because a lot of groups will be elitists) and then they just quit. The grind in this game is by far the worst grind I've ever seen. The xp system encourages you to play alone or with one other person. If you add more than that xp is trash. (That includes randoms in your xp spots)

Along with all that they nerfed regular xp spots so now your getting less xp but having to grind way above the old 810 mark.......

This is exactly what happens when people go "I worked hard for my power and I want to steam roll old content by myself" "don't nerf me" "if there is no mind numbing boring grind to help me get more powerful then why do I even play this game"........ It takes zero skill to grind cp, it doesn't make you better..... It is just plain out boring to do. So tell me how should your guy solo end game bosses when you kill normal zombies in one shot........ I just don't get it.

Goregrinder · April 2021

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

Mumbles_the_Tank wrote: »

show previous quotes

"Goregrinder wrote: »

I think having some form of vertical progression, or the carrot on the stick as they say, has a place in every MMORPG. But I think for ESO, vertical progression that involves a player's power level must be kept in check, otherwise it experiences the same problem all MMORPG's that last 5+ years experience...power creep.

This premise is flawed when applied to the Champion System.

1.0 was massively front loaded and put on hold for years. During that exact same time period without “progression” we experienced some of the largest gains in terms of power creep. Most of it from gear, some from bad skill/passive changes (feedback always ignored), and the rest from Necros existing.

None of those contributors went away with 2.0s release. Blackwood is bringing its own slew of new gear that will likely push damage higher yet again despite these further 2.0 CP nerfs.

So - your belief that the top end must be brought down will never be realized. All that will result is CP as it is on Blackwood - becomes a very underwhelming and poorly designed excuse for XP to exist after 50 and a nuisance gold sink for low-mid CP players. Half the passive stats are now so weak they may as well not exist in the current PTS iteration. It’s an absolute absurdity for supposed progression to be this irrelevant long term.

That’s pretty much it - there’s no real progression after 50s baked in stats. There is only the eternal gear grind treadmill that has always existed and has most often been the largest contributor to power creep.

ZOS doesn’t share your distaste for it by the way - they know full well the promise of farmable creep is what sells every single DLC and expansion for many players.

CP was added when Vet ranks were still a thing. Vet ranks finally got removed (thankfully). Now CP 1.0 got removed and replaced with CP 2.0. ZOS finally took away some of the power level CP gave to the players, and are still in the process of tuning it to reach their goal. It definitely needed to be brought down after 7 years, and hopefully they are proactive and keeping it constantly in check.

My belief is that options should be presented to the player, and that player should choose useful items and abilities based on the task they want to perform, but the success of that player should always be in the hands of that player (Mouse and Keyboard, Controller, etc).

heaven13 · April 2021

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

For those unaware, Update 30 is bringing changes to the CP rework that landed last update. According to ZOS, this change was based on overwhelming amounts of feedback from players that the current CP system still had too much vertical progression and unfairly penalized lower-CP players. The relevant passage from the PTS is as follows.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Of critical importance is the last line, stating that the maximum power of the CP system will be brought down, rather than bringing the lower end up. The intent seems to be to level the playing field for players of all CP levels. However, from posts and comments on the forums, as well as general sentiment in game, it seems as though very few players actually agree with this change. I would like to see if this measure is as popular as claimed, and offer a chance for players that support it to offer their rationale as to why they do so. Hopefully, the results of this poll will give ZOS better insight into the number of players that agree with either side.

I'm confused.

Isn't that the whole point of Champion Points, to have "vertical progression"? What other kind of progression is there? If you go backwards that's not progression, it's regression. They either need to embrace the CP system wholly and accept that its purpose is to make your character stronger or just scrap the whole system entirely. Because I for one am sick of having my character yo-yoed back and forth while they try to figure out what kind of "progression" they want to have. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf.... it's endless at this point and I believe it's become their new and official way of "progressing" the game. They literally intend to just keep buffing and nerfing us for the rest of this game's life while pretending like that's "progression" when in reality they're just keeping us roughly the same.

[...]

Sometimes things are too much (and yes as new players enter they see they need to get to 50 then grind out 1400+ cp because a lot of groups will be elitists) and then they just quit. The grind in this game is by far the worst grind I've ever seen. The xp system encourages you to play alone or with one other person. If you add more than that xp is trash. (That includes randoms in your xp spots)

Along with all that they nerfed regular xp spots so now your getting less xp but having to grind way above the old 810 mark.......

ZoS already accounted for new players with the xp scaling when they changed systems.

remosito wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ranger209 wrote: »

How do you know you have gained 515M XP? Curious on how to see this.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uS2H-elnpVngKOMBqwl3LHytDHSOBwmDfDoQHHOtoh4/edit?usp=sharing

Granted there is extra math in there depending on when someone earned CP in regards to what the cap was at that time but for NEW players, hitting CP for the first time any time after the freeze in 1.0 and hitting CP after 2.0 is a giant buff. It takes a huge amount LESS cp to reach 810 than it did before. In fact, the amount of xp needed to hit 810 previously will get you to 1160 now.

I'm not arguing that it isn't still daunting for new players but stating that the grind is worse/slower is inaccurate.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Cut the points needed without nerfing players. The whole point was supposed to be to make stuff more newbie friendly anyway. So buff the newbies and stop resting the rest of us.