Should ZOS implement the CP changes as they currently stand on PTS?

Sangwyne

For those unaware, Update 30 is bringing changes to the CP rework that landed last update. According to ZOS, this change was based on overwhelming amounts of feedback from players that the current CP system still had too much vertical progression and unfairly penalized lower-CP players. The relevant passage from the PTS is as follows.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Of critical importance is the last line, stating that the maximum power of the CP system will be brought down, rather than bringing the lower end up. The intent seems to be to level the playing field for players of all CP levels. However, from posts and comments on the forums, as well as general sentiment in game, it seems as though very few players actually agree with this change. I would like to see if this measure is as popular as claimed, and offer a chance for players that support it to offer their rationale as to why they do so. Hopefully, the results of this poll will give ZOS better insight into the number of players that agree with either side.

colossalvoids

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Zos should at least have some awareness that top-end CP power isn't the same as top-end player power, especially when CP power gap currently on live is almost non existent compared to previous system installation. If they want to address pvp, sure thing - battlespirit exists just for that. They can even have absolute different cp for pvp and pve if were less lazy with the new cp system reskin.

Players also want to have some sense of progress going for them, not only ones who just started but ones who played for years accumulating tons of exp which was partially lost in a new system. And right now on PTS I personally feel no progress at all, almost back to CP 1.0 with it's 810 cap.

Green tree needs more attention right now as it's the main pain point for absolute most players.

Darkstorne

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

"This game is too easy! Everything dies so fast!" - CP1000+ player playing overland content and base game dungeons in purples/golds with full set bonuses.

"No wait! Don't make me weaker! Make the rest of the game harder!"

I think too many players forgot how long it takes to kill random mobs as a new player, with zero CP, fighting in all white gear with no set bonuses. I guarantee you'll still be rofl-stomping the vast majority of content in update 30. And if vet trials will need a bit of rebalancing to compensate for these changes, that's clearly less work than rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game. It's a good decision.

x48rph

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

Gee it hasn't even been three months since it was implemented and already we got to start on the nerfs. So typical. At this rate there will be no reason to even have CP. I get lower cp players might feel as if there's too much progression but that's only natural. This constantly lowering the ceiling in an effort to make everyone the same removes the whole point of the system to begin with. Why even bother trying to level then. Might as well just make everyone the same level and call it a day.

Lets not also forget that any feedback given is almost always slanted towards the negative. People are much more likely to complain when they don't like something then they are to offer positive feedback when they do so the feedback doesn't give a true representation of players feelings. Watch, come June after the changes, they'll suddenly get overwhelming feedback that there isn't enough progression and we can flip flop again.

Jeremy

Sangwyne wrote: »

For those unaware, Update 30 is bringing changes to the CP rework that landed last update. According to ZOS, this change was based on overwhelming amounts of feedback from players that the current CP system still had too much vertical progression and unfairly penalized lower-CP players. The relevant passage from the PTS is as follows.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Of critical importance is the last line, stating that the maximum power of the CP system will be brought down, rather than bringing the lower end up. The intent seems to be to level the playing field for players of all CP levels. However, from posts and comments on the forums, as well as general sentiment in game, it seems as though very few players actually agree with this change. I would like to see if this measure is as popular as claimed, and offer a chance for players that support it to offer their rationale as to why they do so. Hopefully, the results of this poll will give ZOS better insight into the number of players that agree with either side.

I'm confused.

Isn't that the whole point of Champion Points, to have "vertical progression"? What other kind of progression is there? If you go backwards that's not progression, it's regression. They either need to embrace the CP system wholly and accept that its purpose is to make your character stronger or just scrap the whole system entirely. Because I for one am sick of having my character yo-yoed back and forth while they try to figure out what kind of "progression" they want to have. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf, buff, nerf.... it's endless at this point and I believe it's become their new and official way of "progressing" the game. They literally intend to just keep buffing and nerfing us for the rest of this game's life while pretending like that's "progression" when in reality they're just keeping us roughly the same.

Sylvermynx

Other

I doesn't matter to me what they do - I'll figure it out eventually. I expect to see my characters have a minor drop in DPS; but since I really LOVE the new system (except for the green tree *sigh*), I'll be fine with whatever. I'm non-competitive in the extreme so I just don't get bent out of shape about much of anything.

Diva_Naoko

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

If the concern is with balancing progression between higher and lower CP players, it would be better addressed by further adjusting the CP curve so that one earns more CP at lower levels and fewer at higher levels. Also, they could increase the amount of fast xp we earn each day as "Enlightenment", and also adjust its progression curve so as to help lower CP players progress faster. Doing this will be better than lowering the Vertical Progression cap, which is what they did.

Only changes i think new CP needs is the GREEN tree. Especially it would much benefit from total separation between crafting, gathering and justice. Please adjust the path so that we are not required to waste 15 point in "inspiration boost" when making a thief or a gatherer character.

SidraWillowsky

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

I hate the fact that they added ANOTHER important slottable to the blue CP tree. On live you definitely have to make some trade-offs. The star that increases critical damage is mandatory, so there are essentially three "free" slots and about six potential stars (max magicka/stamina, increased weapon/spell damage, increased weapon/spell damage of damaging abilities, the flanking crit star, thaumaturge, and biting aura).

But now they added something so critical for many builds that it too will be non-negotiable. We now essentially have two free slots and the same 6 skills, and it's no fun because we're still facing the fact that certain stars are so much more powerful than others that if you want to maximize your DPS, you're only going to be using a few of them.

The stars are less powerful. They added another one. This is annoying, not ~build diversity~

The star that increases critical damage should become a passive; bc crit remains the most powerful stat, I'd wager that 90% of the players in the game are slotting that. Where's the diversity there? Stop making it a slottable when we're given no choice on that one.

Kel

Poll is kind of pointless.

Regardless of what we players think, once ZoS has something on the PTS, it's going live.
Sure they might tweak numbers here or there, but what you see is what will go live.

How many bugs and exploits have been reported over the years that ZoS hasn't done anything about?

No my fellow players, what's there on PTS is what will be live, plus or minus a few numbers.

Cirantille

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

It would be nice if they don't cut the power in half but rather keep the required cp level as in PTS.

So you would need half the cp for the same level.

2100 was discouraging, as soon as I heard they reduced it, I started on the new server.

Because now it looks reachable.

Also my level 25 in EU with 1500cp and level 25 in NA with no cp are almost similar in power.

If the purpose was the reduce power of cp, they nailed it.

Disclaimer: I never wanted CP system to change to begin with, people asked for it and they got this, now they gotta deal with it

noneatza

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Dont touch pen
Dont touch runspeed

Thats all i gotta say

ThoughtRaven

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

If they actually cared about listening and responding to feedback honestly they'd have lowered the amount of cp required to max out passives while keeping the power the same.

Greasytengu

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Instead of just flat nerfing everything, they need to front load the passives.

Example:

Currently the max resources stars give 260 each stage for a maximum of 1040.

|260|260|260|260|

If it were front loaded it would look more like this:

|520|260|190|70|

This would allow lower CP players to do competitive DPS at a lower level while allowing for some vertical progression later on.

Sanguinor2

Kel wrote: »

Poll is kind of pointless.

Regardless of what we players think, once ZoS has something on the PTS, it's going live.
Sure they might tweak numbers here or there, but what you see is what will go live.

How many bugs and exploits have been reported over the years that ZoS hasn't done anything about?

No my fellow players, what's there on PTS is what will be live, plus or minus a few numbers.

If we get enough magsorcs protesting it might get reverted, just like shield cast times during murkmire PTS

ThoughtRaven

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Greasytengu wrote: »

Instead of just flat nerfing everything, they need to front load the passives.

Example:

Currently the max resources stars give 260 each stage for a maximum of 1040.

|260|260|260|260|

If it were front loaded it would look more like this:

|520|260|190|70|

This would allow lower CP players to do competitive DPS at a lower level while allowing for some vertical progression later on.

I like this idea as much as, if not more than, reducing cp costs. 👍

blkjag

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

Newer players shouldn’t be as good as vet players it’s pretty simple. Eso has never been easier to get what you need to be competitive. Newer player should have something to work for and aim for their goals and vet players shouldn’t be punished for it. You get back what you put in. Simple. Go earn it.

SickleCider

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

1. If they must, lower CP requirements for stars without gutting their power.
2. Give players more enticing options that can be unlocked earlier in their CP progression, things that make a meaningful impact to their gameplay.
3. Adjust the trees so that players aren't forced to take less desired passives to reach the stars they want. Green tree is a great example of the issue, where the most expedient means of reaching deconstruction and harvesting stars has you taking crafting inspiration, which is useless to many toons.

Jaimeh

Other

Everything except piercing is more or less OK. I don't mind reducing passives, and I like the re-introduction of stars, like master-at-arms, for eg., however, with only 4 slottables, and the halving of passives, there's nothing to spend left-over points meaningfully for specialized characters... my DD can put the extra in other slottables like healing etc., but these will never be used, so I would have preffered it if passives weren't cut in half, or they added more of them, or we had more slots. Also, and very importantly, stam is already struggling to reach pen cap, if these CP changes go through and the piercing passive is halved, it will be unviable for pve dps.

Riptide

Other

I wish they would let it sit for a stretch longer and settle.

Introducing such a new system and then veering all over the road with it will lead to several things:

1. Having to stop at some point on a veer rather than look flaky
2. Give an overall sense of volatility and unreliability
3. Consume untold hours of dev time theory crafting

Just my opinions....I was actually pretty impressed with the new CP system and still am. Be sad if it became a headache of adjustments.

Anonx31st

Other

At this point ZOS should just remove CP from this game. Too many people bashing ZOS because they feel like they are taken their borrowed power away.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Darkstorne wrote: »

"This game is too easy! Everything dies so fast!" - CP1000+ player playing overland content and base game dungeons in purples/golds with full set bonuses.

"No wait! Don't make me weaker! Make the rest of the game harder!"

I think too many players forgot how long it takes to kill random mobs as a new player, with zero CP, fighting in all white gear with no set bonuses. I guarantee you'll still be rofl-stomping the vast majority of content in update 30. And if vet trials will need a bit of rebalancing to compensate for these changes, that's clearly less work than rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game. It's a good decision.

I think too many players forget that overworld and other pve content aren't even the same game in comparability. The requests for more challenging overworld have NOTHING to do with trials and veteran dungeons being made more inaccessible.

Anonx31st

Other

Darkstorne wrote: »

"This game is too easy! Everything dies so fast!" - CP1000+ player playing overland content and base game dungeons in purples/golds with full set bonuses.

"No wait! Don't make me weaker! Make the rest of the game harder!"

I think too many players forgot how long it takes to kill random mobs as a new player, with zero CP, fighting in all white gear with no set bonuses. I guarantee you'll still be rofl-stomping the vast majority of content in update 30. And if vet trials will need a bit of rebalancing to compensate for these changes, that's clearly less work than rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game. It's a good decision.

^This guy gets it. +1

Riptide

Other

I think too many players forgot how long it takes to kill random mobs as a new player, with zero CP, fighting in all white gear with no set bonuses. I guarantee you'll still be rofl-stomping the vast majority of content in update 30. And if vet trials will need a bit of rebalancing to compensate for these changes, that's clearly less work than rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game. It's a good decision.

Well, I’ve brought a large number of players into the game over the years. My lady too, this last year. I certainly grok the initial challenges.

In my opinion the lack of a vet overland mode has always been the issue that makes balancing an unnatural quasimodo affair. There is just no way to gracefully balance the game where 90% of the content is trivial and stuck there compared to the other 10%.

Undo that artificial valve and tune vet overland and vet content with CP and normal content without and you have something sensible to work with.

bmnoble

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

CP costs reduced as they are planning fine.

But the nerfs to the bonuses should be rethought, I personally think the bonuses were fairly low on live, I don't see the justification of the nerfs cutting them in half.

If they are so concerned about top end players having too much damage add a battle spirit equivalent to vet group content tinker with that to balance those that are over performing without screwing over those who lack good reflexes or the skill to manage a mid to high level of DPS.

Come to think of it they could even make the setting for this Vet PVE battle spirit I am proposing something the group can choose themselves at the start of the run, they can increase the severity of the penalties applied to their group with the incentive of higher drops or something, satisfying those seeking higher difficulty giving progression groups something extra to work towards if they choose, perhaps throw in some new achievements as well.

As for PVP if they are so concerned about damage being too high, use the existing battle spirit the same way they used it on healing recently up the damage reduction to 60% there your 10% damage reduction across the board done.

Ceejengine

CP changes should stay. Top-end power needs to be brought down.

Darkstorne wrote: »

"This game is too easy! Everything dies so fast!" - CP1000+ player playing overland content and base game dungeons in purples/golds with full set bonuses.

"No wait! Don't make me weaker! Make the rest of the game harder!"

I think too many players forgot how long it takes to kill random mobs as a new player, with zero CP, fighting in all white gear with no set bonuses. I guarantee you'll still be rofl-stomping the vast majority of content in update 30. And if vet trials will need a bit of rebalancing to compensate for these changes, that's clearly less work than rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game. It's a good decision.

Spot on. I think your biggest issue is that by the nature of game forums, primarily people looking to whine participate. They don't actually care about the benefit or downsides to any changes / lack of changes, they just want to whine about something.

Like literally a day before the PTS there were what? 20 page threads about how easy end game was, how vertical progression was, and how overtuned the CP system was.

ZOS made all the changes requested. And now those same people are complaining about getting exactly what they wanted.

I am so glad I work in the profession I do. I dont know how community outreach employees have any hair left.

XxCaLxX

Can't speak for all builds but mine is pretty much the same on live and PTS. I'm down 1k dps on PTS but with crystal drags not working I'll get that back easily. Most likely more.

heaven13

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Green CP needs to be changed. It's the tree that pretty much everyone has issues with and the one that ZoS hasn't reworked on PTS.

Meanwhile, the others are fine on live. If they were concerned about lower CP player experience, cutting the amount needed per stage is fine but leave the same end power there. A couple ways that this could be done, looking at Precision which needs 40 blue CP for 640 crit chance (160 per stage) on live:

• Flat out cut the amount needed so 20 total, 5 CP/160 crit chance per stage.
• Leave it needing 40 total, but make 8 stages so people can start using it earlier, 5 CP/80 crit chance per stage.
• Or, as @Greasytengu suggested, front load it so you get diminishing returns, similar to CP 1.0.

Cutting the amount needed while also halving the final power is too far. But why are we shocked? This is how ZoS "balances" everything? Need we remind people of the dot meta?

Tensar

CP is fine on Live, and doesn't need further changes.

TESO is becoming boring, they are only focusing on news players for everything. I am not a cp 1000 and i liked the new cp tree, we have more progressions and level to have. Why make the game more adapted to casuals players who will not stay in the game anyway?

Riptide

Other

Ceejengine wrote: »

I think your biggest issue is that by the nature of game forums, primarily people looking to whine participate. They don't actually care about the benefit or downsides to any changes / lack of changes, they just want to whine about something.

[snip]

This doesn’t make my opinions more valid than yours, but lately this notion that if you disagree with actions the team takes or if you have ideas contrary to peace in the valley that you are some sort of problem to be squashed seems to be catching on in an unhealthy way. You don’t need to be a Cassandra to see if opinions like yours prevail that the game will have well and truly have jumped the shark.

We make criticisms because we have seen what works and what doesn’t. Requesting the car have brakes is reasonable. Saying a hole in the floor to use our feet to stop isn’t the best approach to brakes is reasonable if thats the sort of brakes proposed.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Araneae6537

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

Green tree needs to be addressed. Ideally given a more radial design so that unrelated stars aren’t prerequisites, especially expensive slottables. Ideally more of the green tree could be made passive rather than slottables too.

I am not in favor of halving all passive buffs in the other two trees — it was already quite a nerf from 1.0. I thought that the blue and red trees were fine as they are on live. Do not nerf Hasty, please. My tank already took an unpleasant hit to speed; don’t make the role even less fun to play!

crystal_coppolab14_ESO

CP changes should be addressed differently. (How?)

I feel everyone I talk to just has issues with sustain AND THE GREEN TREE. Too many actives, not enough passives, too many points, etc. But that's just us. \o/