Proc Sets in PvP (PAY ATTENTION ZOS)

YandereGirlfriend

ExoY wrote: »

This might already been suggested somewhere...

i think the scaling of procsets should also not be linear, like introducing a soft cap.

What that means it, you need more spell damage the higher you go to add more value to the proc set.
Arbitrary numbers to Illustrate:
So for example going from 1k spell dmg to 2k spell dmg the proc set dmg will increase by 500.
When going from 5k spell dmg to 6k spell dmg the proc set dmg will only increase by another 50.

(I am using a damage proc set as an example, but i think this should be applied to all. And obviously those numbers need to worked out properly. )


This way for a "normal" build there will be a point where it doesnt make more sense to stack more weapon damage.
But yet still leaving the possibility for people to try out very specialized setups, without them beeing totally overpowered.

This would absolutely dumpster proc sets for PvE purposes. Right now they're being given a new breath of life due to linear scaling.

The one true answer is and forever will be: BATTLE SPIRIT 50% PROC DAMAGE NERF.

karekiz

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ExoY wrote: »

This might already been suggested somewhere...

i think the scaling of procsets should also not be linear, like introducing a soft cap.

What that means it, you need more spell damage the higher you go to add more value to the proc set.
Arbitrary numbers to Illustrate:
So for example going from 1k spell dmg to 2k spell dmg the proc set dmg will increase by 500.
When going from 5k spell dmg to 6k spell dmg the proc set dmg will only increase by another 50.

(I am using a damage proc set as an example, but i think this should be applied to all. And obviously those numbers need to worked out properly. )


This way for a "normal" build there will be a point where it doesnt make more sense to stack more weapon damage.
But yet still leaving the possibility for people to try out very specialized setups, without them beeing totally overpowered.

This would absolutely dumpster proc sets for PvE purposes. Right now they're being given a new breath of life due to linear scaling.

The one true answer is and forever will be: BATTLE SPIRIT 50% PROC DAMAGE NERF.

Never, Nerf all procs by 75% instead in all conten. Its the true only way. How else will I get my clicky video title?

karekiz

Orpheaus wrote: »

A couple good points I've noticed that I didn't mention in my initial post that bear repeating, The 1:1 is inherently flawed because stam classes have an advantage in how easy we can push our numbers higher than mag classes. Not saying Mag classes don't have benefits but as it relates to the current discussion (Proc scaling) stam has a defined advantage.

The other good point I noticed was someone mentioning make the sets flat values. I understand why people are concerned about this but, if they're not willing to implement my initial suggestion of 1 proc set per player in PvP, I would like to see the values significantly reduced but changed to true damage.

A different MMO I played years ago had a ring that would proc a HoT that would heal you for about 101 every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. Max characters at the time had about 10k HP. As you can see it wasn't a huge game changer, it was a nice flavour adder as someone mentioned.

Procs shouldn't DEFINE how we play they should just give us a nice little boost or bonus ON TOP of how we play.

The issue is that in other game with similar things like you mentioned <Proc wise> as the ring that does basically nothing other than flavor, it doesn't actually penalize you in content for wearing it set wise. In EQ I can have an item such as a sword that procs <Insert spell here>. They aren't tied to full set bonus and effect your overall stats

Your ring here would look like this currently:
2 items: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
5 items: Casting abilities that leave an effect on the ground will create a circle of healing frost for 10 seconds. You and your group members restore 500 Health every 1 second while inside the circle. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Not really worth creating even on a devs standpoint.

The only way to address that would be to add an additional 5 set bonus to all procs to make them semi-stat / proc hybrids. Then rebalance the procs to be lower damage wise, but flavor sets.

Your ring adjusted would look like this currently:
2 items: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
3 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
5 items: Adds X Spell Damage: Casting abilities that leave an effect on the ground will create a circle of healing frost for 10 seconds. You and your group members restore 500 Health every 1 second while inside the circle. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

JerBearESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The one true answer is and forever will be: BATTLE SPIRIT 50% PROC DAMAGE NERF.

why do you keep pushing for this? have we thought it through? have we done some math, considered some logic? is there something I'm missing?

Let's take a look!

We will use 2k dps as the current average for a consistent dps proc, such as way of fire. Now what should a stat set comparison be? maybe 400 wep dmg, like way of air; but alas, we mustn't forget our + 30-50% from buffs, so we will meet in the middle and just toss on the 40%, for a total of 560 wep dmg.

so with 50% proc reduction we get 1k per second. what do we get with our stats?

well, most damage stat builds will be shooting for 5.5k wep damage after buffs on average, so we can say our 560 is 10% of that. this translates to about 5% of a skills damage, with something like d-swing hitting for about 12k, assuming about 33k ish stam. so our stat set has given us about 600 damage per d-swing, while granting MORE for burst abilities and also giving us increased healing. but wait, are we missing something? ah yes, CRIT! with 50% crit chance and enough crit damage to hit around 100% total, we need to add 50% to those damage values BUT 100% to the healing values.

this means the stat set gives around 900 damage per second on our spammable, about 1200 on our burst ability, and about 2400 per cast of vigor (vigor may take 4s to complete, but it was only 1s worth of input).

so we see, just cutting procs by 50% drops them completely out of viability compared to stat sets. and at what point do the numbers magically work out? after all, we only used 40% worth of wep damage buffs and way of air. imagine 50% and sword singer set as an example. now we are talking 1.5k dps, over 2k added to execute on average, and a big rally heal. so the complexity of balance is dependent upon build selections to the effect that it is not possible.

Isolated selection is the answer. why balance procs against stats when you can just balance them separately!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571268/procs-vs-stats-the-real-problem-solution#latest

Canned_Apples

kalunte wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

No, the worst thing they could do is ignore the community feedback/warnings and push these changes live like they’ve been doing for various quarters.

Totally agree, it would be a miserable experience. Probably the worst that has ever been.

according to forums, the same guys claim that only the worse is coming one after another but they are still there

A lot of the content creators left, or only play a few days to post a video about the patch after it drops before disappearing again.

I'm sure that if a new world of games come out that are marginally better, they'll all go there.

I come and go but I am gone more often then not because of how bad some of these patches are.
The dot/homogeny meta was tolerable if you played a templar, but the proc+malacath meta was the end for me. Game has become unplayable. I can spend some time in Cyrodiil but can't touch bgs or ic because of all the cheese.

Sheuib

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

You clearly haven't watched the videos on this. I recommend looking up Kristofer ESO and seeing his vid on this. He is doing the levels of damage I mentioned with the health I mentioned quite easily. So perhaps it is you who is "Buying too much into a tool tip number."

To others I do agree that in the past ZOS has fixed things that were widely panned. But only if it was intensely and repetitively emphasized to them how detrimental a change would be. That's why it's so important that we hammer them with tests and videos and parses to show them how bad this will be.

Yeah that video he has 700 physical penetration. That is not a typo. It is 700 not 7k. That is worthless penetration. He would have to be fighting someone in full light armor with no buffs to get anywhere close to his tool tip numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

Here is the link to the video if you want to look at it to see the penetration yourself. He has his stat page up at 1:33.

Rex-Umbra

Keep them how they work on live tweak over performing sets this is all a mess

Orpheaus

Sheuib wrote: »

Yeah that video he has 700 physical penetration. That is not a typo. It is 700 not 7k. That is worthless penetration. He would have to be fighting someone in full light armor with no buffs to get anywhere close to his tool tip numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

Here is the link to the video if you want to look at it to see the penetration yourself. He has his stat page up at 1:33.

[snip] The point of why this is broken is because you do not need to hit traditional "Stat Thresholds" like you did in the past because he's stacking 3-4 sets SO IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE DOESNT REACH TOOLTIP. You link the video to prove he doesn't have a lot of pen. And in that vid he strings 3-4 procs together that hit for 30k+

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Canned_Apples

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Keep them how they work on live tweak over performing sets this is all a mess

Yes, I would rather see them nerf the sets by a flat 25% then have the broken stat based scaling.

I’m fine with them being viable, just not meta.

Orpheaus

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Keep them how they work on live tweak over performing sets this is all a mess

Yes, I would rather see them nerf the sets by a flat 25% then have the broken stat based scaling.

I’m fine with them being viable, just not meta.

This^. Common theme in the replies to all these threads is people wanting flat nerfs to some of the worst offenders so that procs are usable but not the only thing that matters when putting together a build

doesurmindglow

I mean I get the argument about penetration, but I've literally tested the sets in duels.

Sure, it's definitely more challenging to hit as hard as I can on live server running these overtuned sets like Crimson and Explosive Rebuke, but my survivability and healing is so thoroughly off the charts that having terrible penetration and/or sustain barely matters -- nothing can meaningfully hurt you, and you still do have "able to kill people not also running the sets" damage.

It's definitely good that choosing to run proc sets comes at the cost of something like penetration, but actual testing seems to suggest that cost isn't high enough to be meaningful nor is it high enough to prevent the sets from rendering my character effectively unkillable in some setups.

master_vanargand

To be honest, Proc Damage and Heal sets only had to nerf 30% overall rather than scaling.
I think proc scaling makes the server even worse.

Sheuib

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Yeah that video he has 700 physical penetration. That is not a typo. It is 700 not 7k. That is worthless penetration. He would have to be fighting someone in full light armor with no buffs to get anywhere close to his tool tip numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

Here is the link to the video if you want to look at it to see the penetration yourself. He has his stat page up at 1:33.

[snip] The point of why this is broken is because you do not need to hit traditional "Stat Thresholds" like you did in the past because he's stacking 3-4 sets SO IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE DOESNT REACH TOOLTIP. You link the video to prove he doesn't have a lot of pen. And in that vid he strings 3-4 procs together that hit for 30k+

[snip]

You are just not getting it. This build will not work in real pvp. The only way you will get all of those to kill someone if they are standing still in light armor and not bothering to try and stay alive. Or, they are new and just don't know how to stay alive. Every kill in the video the person is standing still.

Think about it why do you not see people running around with a 9k weapon damage in live? I am sure his tool tip numbers for all of his abilities are crazy high. You could obviously get that same weapon damage in live. His dawnbreaker is probably some crazy tool tip number.

If you think that build is so OP go ahead and put it together in live and see how you do.

His resistance isn't supper high. His regen is just ok but his resources are so low he will hardly be able to do anything. If that build worked people would be using it now.

FlamingBeard

Sheuib wrote: »

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Yeah that video he has 700 physical penetration. That is not a typo. It is 700 not 7k. That is worthless penetration. He would have to be fighting someone in full light armor with no buffs to get anywhere close to his tool tip numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

Here is the link to the video if you want to look at it to see the penetration yourself. He has his stat page up at 1:33.

[snip] The point of why this is broken is because you do not need to hit traditional "Stat Thresholds" like you did in the past because he's stacking 3-4 sets SO IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE DOESNT REACH TOOLTIP. You link the video to prove he doesn't have a lot of pen. And in that vid he strings 3-4 procs together that hit for 30k+

[snip]

You are just not getting it. This build will not work in real pvp. The only way you will get all of those to kill someone if they are standing still in light armor and not bothering to try and stay alive. Or, they are new and just don't know how to stay alive. Every kill in the video the person is standing still.

Think about it why do you not see people running around with a 9k weapon damage in live? I am sure his tool tip numbers for all of his abilities are crazy high. You could obviously get that same weapon damage in live. His dawnbreaker is probably some crazy tool tip number.

If you think that build is so OP go ahead and put it together in live and see how you do.

His resistance isn't supper high. His regen is just ok but his resources are so low he will hardly be able to do anything. If that build worked people would be using it now.

Procs don't scale on Live with the stats he has on PTS so of course that build won't work on Live... your comments up to this point have no actual evidence backing up your claims, just your opinions.

Experienced veteran PvPers all starkly disagree with everything you've said; this isn't a debate thread.

Canned_Apples

Sheuib wrote: »

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

Yeah that video he has 700 physical penetration. That is not a typo. It is 700 not 7k. That is worthless penetration. He would have to be fighting someone in full light armor with no buffs to get anywhere close to his tool tip numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

Here is the link to the video if you want to look at it to see the penetration yourself. He has his stat page up at 1:33.

[snip] The point of why this is broken is because you do not need to hit traditional "Stat Thresholds" like you did in the past because he's stacking 3-4 sets SO IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE DOESNT REACH TOOLTIP. You link the video to prove he doesn't have a lot of pen. And in that vid he strings 3-4 procs together that hit for 30k+

[snip]

You are just not getting it. This build will not work in real pvp. The only way you will get all of those to kill someone if they are standing still in light armor and not bothering to try and stay alive. Or, they are new and just don't know how to stay alive. Every kill in the video the person is standing still.

Think about it why do you not see people running around with a 9k weapon damage in live? I am sure his tool tip numbers for all of his abilities are crazy high. You could obviously get that same weapon damage in live. His dawnbreaker is probably some crazy tool tip number.

If you think that build is so OP go ahead and put it together in live and see how you do.

His resistance isn't supper high. His regen is just ok but his resources are so low he will hardly be able to do anything. If that build worked people would be using it now.

Correct, it is very unlikely that they'll be standing still, but all you'll have to do to combat that is drop an unavoidable stun, Turn Evil, and you'll be golden.
There are also other proc sets and weapons that'll be far more effective by applying stacks of dots with one skill. Unleashed Terror+vate+merciless charge+poisons will be far worse than it currently because it will deal even more damage and has no counter play. It's why so many people run that setup in BGs and IC.
No sustain? That's what potions are for.
It's not like they have a long cool down.

doesurmindglow

I put the build together and tested it against various opponents. Similarly, I have had various opponents test it against me.

Sure, it has middling penetration and low sustain, but neither particularly matter that much when your HP, proc-based damage, AND proc-based healing are all so so high that you don't really need either, which is what we have here.

It is OP. Everyone in PVP will probably have to run it. I'm sure there's a hypothetical excellent player out there that will be able to develop an effective counter to it, if they can, or simply have the skill and practice to overcome the build's imbalanced advantages, but I'm generally of the opinion we probably shouldn't be relying on a "hypothetical excellent player" to make sets balanced for PVP.

Orpheaus

Sheuib wrote: »

You are just not getting it. This build will not work in real pvp. The only way you will get all of those to kill someone if they are standing still in light armor and not bothering to try and stay alive. Or, they are new and just don't know how to stay alive. Every kill in the video the person is standing still.

Think about it why do you not see people running around with a 9k weapon damage in live? I am sure his tool tip numbers for all of his abilities are crazy high. You could obviously get that same weapon damage in live. His dawnbreaker is probably some crazy tool tip number.

If you think that build is so OP go ahead and put it together in live and see how you do.

His resistance isn't supper high. His regen is just ok but his resources are so low he will hardly be able to do anything. If that build worked people would be using it now.

Take note that all the people who are experienced and have ACTUALLY spent time on the PTS are pointing out this build is not only meta it will be oppressively OP to the point where you have to run some version of it.
We're actually on PTS testing these builds rather than just throwing out guesses. The fact that you said "No one on live is doing this" shows how woefully underinformed you are about what we're actually discussing.

doesurmindglow

Yeah, I get the sense a lot of people commenting that they think this is fine either haven't actually tested it themselves, are unaware we're talking about future changes that are not yet live, or are looking forward to a toxic imbalance they can exploit in PVP.

JerBearESO

Canned_Apples wrote: »

There are also other proc sets and weapons that'll be far more effective by applying stacks of dots with one skill. Unleashed Terror+vate+merciless charge+poisons will be far worse than it currently because it will deal even more damage and has no counter play. It's why so many people run that setup in BGs and IC.
No sustain? That's what potions are for.
It's not like they have a long cool down.

an interesting note about DoTs we may not be thinking too much about. they work off stats at time of cast. so you can spike for high wep dmg, apply your proc dots within that window, and then they have that insane damage for their lifespan. this kinda makes the annoyingly toxic DoT proc based nightblade cheese builds a lot worse, thx to proc scaling

just felt like throwing that tid bit out there when I saw the point about using DoTs