Proc Sets in PvP (PAY ATTENTION ZOS)

Orpheaus

I'm not the first thread but the dev team has consistently ignored glaring issues from PTS 1 to live that killed PvP so I want to make sure they are constantly reminded how devastating these changes will be if they hit live. ANd I'm not talking about something where a couple 10% tweaks will fix it. This system needs a full overhaul.
Kristofer has a really good video about how bad this is so I won't bore you all. By now most of us have seen the screencap where explosive rebuke has an 88k tooltip. But it's important that ZOS understands it's not a couple edgecases. It'll be relatively easy for classes to run around with 40k+ HP stringing 3-4 procs together that hit for 25-35k total. Armour playing the game for us is bad.
I don't personally have an issue with procs being in the game. But they should be a slight boost or bump of damage that is a minor part in the totality of how we score kills, not the only way to score kills.
There are plenty of good suggestions from Kristofer and others on these forums on how to fix this issue, targeted nerfs would be nice.
My personal suggestion is probably unpopular but I would like to see characters limited to one proc set when in PvP combat. The issue in the last 2 proc metas has been stacking 3-4 proc sets on top of each other. (Crimson+Grothdarr+Vateshran) (Literally any 3-4 stam proc sets here). Limiting us to a single proc condition set would go a long way toward fixing this. But I confess I find it unlikely. So instead PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE seriously reconsider how you calculate these. ESO PvP will not survive another 6 months of awful metas.

PS: Lag is also an offender because when lag becomes so oppressive that our skills won't go off then proc sets become even more powerful because the game plays itself for us.

Anyron

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

Canned_Apples

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

No, the worst thing they could do is ignore the community feedback/warnings and push these changes live like they’ve been doing for various quarters.

relentless_turnip

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

No, the worst thing they could do is ignore the community feedback/warnings and push these changes live like they’ve been doing for various quarters.

Totally agree, it would be a miserable experience. Probably the worst that has ever been.

kalunte

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

No, the worst thing they could do is ignore the community feedback/warnings and push these changes live like they’ve been doing for various quarters.

Totally agree, it would be a miserable experience. Probably the worst that has ever been.

according to forums, the same guys claim that only the worse is coming one after another but they are still there

relentless_turnip

kalunte wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

No, the worst thing they could do is ignore the community feedback/warnings and push these changes live like they’ve been doing for various quarters.

Totally agree, it would be a miserable experience. Probably the worst that has ever been.

according to forums, the same guys claim that only the worse is coming one after another but they are still there

I am an advocate for proc scaling, the current iteration makes things much much worse than live. I hope they fix it, but I have my doubts because of previous PTS cycles. I keep thinking I've seen the worst and then the worst gets buffed 😂

MurderMostFoul

By the time Mondays PTS patch comes out, if they haven't changed the scaling, or at least acknowledge that they intend to, I'm going to be very worried.

People are right to be concerned given the track record of ignoring feedback during PTS cycles. But if this feedback is not acted on, it'll be a new low.

1. ZOS has already acknowledged that proc sets are problematic on live, hence the no proc Cyro test.
2. Now, they appear to want to address the problem with proc scaling, but have somehow made it worse with the current PTS iteration.
3. In the face of 1 and 2 above, if they ignore feedback and let this iteration of proc set scaling go live, myself and I'm sure many others in the PVP community will completely lose faith in the ZOS's ability and/or genuine interest in delivering a relatively balanced PVP experience.

JerBearESO

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

By the time Mondays PTS patch comes out, if they haven't changed the scaling, or at least acknowledge that they intend to, I'm going to be very worried.

People are right to be concerned given the track record of ignoring feedback during PTS cycles. But if this feedback is not acted on, it'll be a new low.

1. ZOS has already acknowledged that proc sets are problematic on live, hence the no proc Cyro test.
2. Now, they appear to want to address the problem with proc scaling, but have somehow made it worse with the current PTS iteration.
3. In the face of 1 and 2 above, if they ignore feedback and let this iteration of proc set scaling go live, myself and I'm sure many others in the PVP community will completely lose faith in the ZOS's ability and/or genuine interest in delivering a relatively balanced PVP experience.

remember, the cyro test was a performance test. they wanted to see how much the proc's condition checks were weighing on their servers. it has nothing to do with the current proc scaling situation which is a balance issue.

also remember that weird pts test they did where light attacks restored resource instead of heavy? they DID listen to the player base and backed out of that entirely. then, a while later, they added a golden change which players actually did want from that test, with light/heavy attacks now scaling with highest stats rather then stam/wep dmg and mag/spl dmg specifically, which resulted in a LOT of new build diversity, namely stamina mages and spell blades.

so not all hope is lost. but IF they truly do roll this out, I know I will be finally moving on from this game -_-

Sheuib

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

Orpheaus

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

You clearly haven't watched the videos on this. I recommend looking up Kristofer ESO and seeing his vid on this. He is doing the levels of damage I mentioned with the health I mentioned quite easily. So perhaps it is you who is "Buying too much into a tool tip number."

To others I do agree that in the past ZOS has fixed things that were widely panned. But only if it was intensely and repetitively emphasized to them how detrimental a change would be. That's why it's so important that we hammer them with tests and videos and parses to show them how bad this will be.

Firstmep

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

You clearly haven't watched the videos on this. I recommend looking up Kristofer ESO and seeing his vid on this. He is doing the levels of damage I mentioned with the health I mentioned quite easily. So perhaps it is you who is "Buying too much into a tool tip number."

To others I do agree that in the past ZOS has fixed things that were widely panned. But only if it was intensely and repetitively emphasized to them how detrimental a change would be. That's why it's so important that we hammer them with tests and videos and parses to show them how bad this will be.

Jack Daniel in that video has 1.4 Stam regen on a 2h bow toon and 16k max Stam. In actual fight he'd run out of resources in a heartbeat. Don't get me wrong he usually play these kinda low sustain high dmg builds, but most people wouldn't run that.

It's nice to showcase extreme builds like that, but the reality of what people will actually be able to run isn't this bleak.

I do think proc scaling is far too generous right now, but please, take a look at some of these builds before you think anyone would run them.

Bucky_13

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

I'm on PTS right now checking my old "annoying proc"- build for CP PvP. After almost 4.5k ish weapon damage I'm at 100% of the PvE value for my 3 sets. I can easily go to 5.5k weapon damage with glyphs, a few FG skills & a sharpened bow, giving me some decent pen. Or go for 4.6k weapon damage and a ton of resource regen, just like before.

With nirned bow, Sheer Venom hits for 8.1k/tick compared to 5.5k which is PvE tooltip, this is with 5.8k weapon damage.

This is without a lot of bonuses as I haven't filled in my skill trees completely, and I didn't have a resource capture bonus.

My point is, the threshold is laughably low for the proc sets to hit at 100% efficiency, at least the weapon dmg ones. I can play my old proc build with almost no changes to before and have the procs be as effective. The values do need to increase, otherwise there's no point to it.

JerBearESO

Bucky_13 wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

The values do need to increase, otherwise there's no point to it.

And what was the point to it? I feel I need to remind everyone again. The point was to nerf proc cheese builds, not procs as a whole. The result is that proc cheese builds are buffed and procs as a whole are nerfed (that is to say, the average currently balanced on live proc build is nerfed).

To JUST raise the threshold MAY finally nerf proc cheese, but at what cost, and at what point? Well, nerfing suggest reducing power, and 9k wep damage (not going into spell dmg atm) is achievable while maintaining survivability, regen, and penetration for pts proc cheese. Therefor, the threshold would need to be? About 10k wep damage! At that threshold, finally, no more proc cheese; but alas, no more procs.... The average player wanting to enjoy the games build diversity using procs would find, after investing more into wep damage, they only have around 6k, and therefor their build is...

"oh man another useless build.... Hm, unfathomable darkness looks cool let me try th....oh right, useless. Ima just go play New W...."

Can we PLEASE open our eyes and see that this conundrum is NOT solvable through balance tinkering? Because a lot of people pushed proc scaling, the devs listened, and it is garbage. If everyone keeps trying to push balance tinkering with the false hope that it will magically work, the worst may happen! The devs may try it, run out of pts test time (they have schedules to keep), and we end up with this trashcan of a mess.

Orpheaus

Firstmep wrote: »

Jack Daniel in that video has 1.4 Stam regen on a 2h bow toon and 16k max Stam. In actual fight he'd run out of resources in a heartbeat. Don't get me wrong he usually play these kinda low sustain high dmg builds, but most people wouldn't run that.

It's nice to showcase extreme builds like that, but the reality of what people will actually be able to run isn't this bleak.

I do think proc scaling is far too generous right now, but please, take a look at some of these builds before you think anyone would run them.

No he won't. 1.4 isn't really that unreasonable especially if you're potting off CD and you're confused because you're picturing it like any other stam build where you use your stam to kill people. The build he's running isn't reliant on having loads of stamina because once again *His armour is playing the game for him* so really all he needs to do is make sure he lives (See the 45k HP and resistances courtesy of sithis mythic).
I'll reiterate these are not some random edgecases and it's important the devs understand this. I know we all hated how many werewolves with crimson there were during the last proc meta. If anything resembling this goes live then literally everyone will be running builds similar to what we saw in that video.
People who are defending the current PTS cycle are either intentionally obtuse or they're looking to exploit the blatant issues to their own gain.

regime211

Orpheaus wrote: »

I'm not the first thread but the dev team has consistently ignored glaring issues from PTS 1 to live that killed PvP so I want to make sure they are constantly reminded how devastating these changes will be if they hit live. ANd I'm not talking about something where a couple 10% tweaks will fix it. This system needs a full overhaul.
Kristofer has a really good video about how bad this is so I won't bore you all. By now most of us have seen the screencap where explosive rebuke has an 88k tooltip. But it's important that ZOS understands it's not a couple edgecases. It'll be relatively easy for classes to run around with 40k+ HP stringing 3-4 procs together that hit for 25-35k total. Armour playing the game for us is bad.
I don't personally have an issue with procs being in the game. But they should be a slight boost or bump of damage that is a minor part in the totality of how we score kills, not the only way to score kills.
There are plenty of good suggestions from Kristofer and others on these forums on how to fix this issue, targeted nerfs would be nice.
My personal suggestion is probably unpopular but I would like to see characters limited to one proc set when in PvP combat. The issue in the last 2 proc metas has been stacking 3-4 proc sets on top of each other. (Crimson+Grothdarr+Vateshran) (Literally any 3-4 stam proc sets here). Limiting us to a single proc condition set would go a long way toward fixing this. But I confess I find it unlikely. So instead PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE seriously reconsider how you calculate these. ESO PvP will not survive another 6 months of awful metas.

PS: Lag is also an offender because when lag becomes so oppressive that our skills won't go off then proc sets become even more powerful because the game plays itself for us.

Man please proc sets weren't an issue like that until recently, it has been performance and always will be,.. It's just worse when being hit by proc sets and the games performance is so bad it can't calculate everything accordingly, Proc sets weren't an issue until the most recent DLC/patches.
I swear every time something new comes out, everyone complains.

you guys definitely took the bait, when it came to them blaming proc sets to get everyone's mind off of performance being the number 1 perpetrator, people talk about pvp being way more fun without proc set's being enabled and people ran with that "Data" but we still see how lag/Desyncs/ skill delay constantly burdens the state of pvp, unless your playing when it's not prime time and running around for hours to find a fight. And this is from a solo player.

Wuuffyy

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

Love how we are ignoring the 5-7k pen you all get lol.

Faded

Orpheaus wrote: »

Armour playing the game for us is bad.

That's the core issue. Damage procs adding flavor and specialization to builds is one thing, a proc meta is something else. This one has lasted a long time and since the devs keep creating new outlier sets that cause most of the problems and are now planning to allow all of them to scale over 100 percent if you build for it (and in the case of every single one of my stamina characters, even if you don't) this must be the "combat" they want in Cyrodiil.

Mahabahabtha

With release of Blackwood, their way of avoiding the problems is:
They Shut down all CP Servers
and declare the rest as Non-Proc Servers..

WinWin for all....i guess.... (Aunt Edith says...Ironic....)

Ocelot9x

I

regime211 wrote: »

Orpheaus wrote: »

I'm not the first thread but the dev team has consistently ignored glaring issues from PTS 1 to live that killed PvP so I want to make sure they are constantly reminded how devastating these changes will be if they hit live. ANd I'm not talking about something where a couple 10% tweaks will fix it. This system needs a full overhaul.
Kristofer has a really good video about how bad this is so I won't bore you all. By now most of us have seen the screencap where explosive rebuke has an 88k tooltip. But it's important that ZOS understands it's not a couple edgecases. It'll be relatively easy for classes to run around with 40k+ HP stringing 3-4 procs together that hit for 25-35k total. Armour playing the game for us is bad.
I don't personally have an issue with procs being in the game. But they should be a slight boost or bump of damage that is a minor part in the totality of how we score kills, not the only way to score kills.
There are plenty of good suggestions from Kristofer and others on these forums on how to fix this issue, targeted nerfs would be nice.
My personal suggestion is probably unpopular but I would like to see characters limited to one proc set when in PvP combat. The issue in the last 2 proc metas has been stacking 3-4 proc sets on top of each other. (Crimson+Grothdarr+Vateshran) (Literally any 3-4 stam proc sets here). Limiting us to a single proc condition set would go a long way toward fixing this. But I confess I find it unlikely. So instead PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE seriously reconsider how you calculate these. ESO PvP will not survive another 6 months of awful metas.

PS: Lag is also an offender because when lag becomes so oppressive that our skills won't go off then proc sets become even more powerful because the game plays itself for us.

Man please proc sets weren't an issue like that until recently, it has been performance and always will be,.. It's just worse when being hit by proc sets and the games performance is so bad it can't calculate everything accordingly, Proc sets weren't an issue until the most recent DLC/patches.
I swear every time something new comes out, everyone complains.

you guys definitely took the bait, when it came to them blaming proc sets to get everyone's mind off of performance being the number 1 perpetrator, people talk about pvp being way more fun without proc set's being enabled and people ran with that "Data" but we still see how lag/Desyncs/ skill delay constantly burdens the state of pvp, unless your playing when it's not prime time and running around for hours to find a fight. And this is from a solo player.

Proc weren't and issue untile recently? Maybe you started playing after the first procalypse, with everyone running viper+tremorscale+black rose.
Best meta of recent years is no proc cyrodill, but it's sadly plagued by lag, a different issue (thanks to those 10 people playing on stadia).
I also see a lot of people defending Procs for build diversity, the truth is that with non stat Procs 2 or 3 more setup becomes good, we are not talking about 10+ possible builds.

Rebalance classes
Fix servers
Buff Procs damage but reduce their pvp effectiveness by battle spirit

And boom, pvp fixed and better pve experience for everyone, but i guess half of zos team is working on roleplay features

ExoY

This might already been suggested somewhere...

i think the scaling of procsets should also not be linear, like introducing a soft cap.

What that means it, you need more spell damage the higher you go to add more value to the proc set.
Arbitrary numbers to Illustrate:
So for example going from 1k spell dmg to 2k spell dmg the proc set dmg will increase by 500.
When going from 5k spell dmg to 6k spell dmg the proc set dmg will only increase by another 50.

(I am using a damage proc set as an example, but i think this should be applied to all. And obviously those numbers need to worked out properly. )


This way for a "normal" build there will be a point where it doesnt make more sense to stack more weapon damage.
But yet still leaving the possibility for people to try out very specialized setups, without them beeing totally overpowered.

Gilvoth

as i said earlier, it bears repeating here as well, as this is the same subject and result.

this cannot be solved, it's an illusion.
so that brings us back to page one.
back in beta, 8 years ago, we told them.

"do not make classes."
"delete the classes"

and now we see the results, they refused to do as we asked.
enjoy the horrors that you have created from the extreme imbalances, and the people that believe they have all the answers to fix an unsolvable Penrose triangle of classes.
there is no escape.

and by the way, Zenimax sold this mmo and other games it owns to Microsoft, so to call them out as you have in the title of this thread is fruitless.

TheBonesXXX

Gilvoth wrote: »

as i said earlier, it bears repeating here as well, as this is the same subject and result.

this cannot be solved, it's an illusion.
so that brings us back to page one.
back in beta, 8 years ago, we told them.

"do not make classes."
"delete the classes"

and now we see the results, they refused to do as we asked.
enjoy the horrors that you have created from the extreme imbalances, and the people that believe they have all the answers to fix an unsolvable Penrose triangle of classes.
there is no escape.

and by the way, Zenimax sold this mmo and other games it owns to Microsoft, so to call them out as you have in the title of this thread is fruitless.

Should have just been a TES online, thats it.

TES does not need improvements, just bug fixes.

Adenoma

The bummer that I feel like isn't discussed enough is that if we cap proc values at current live server values, then essentially nothing at all has changed. We'll just be in the same proc meta with the slight class differences implemented.

Needless to say, we're gonna see some silly stuff go live if the current PTS iteration comes around.

Ranger209

Maybe the answer is that they shouldn't scale off of anything at all, nor be affected by anything at all. If a proc has a tool tip of 2k then it hits for 2k regardless of any offensive stats the attacking player has, and regardless of any defensive stats the target has. It always hits everyone for 2k by anyone who uses it. The scaling of any type seems to be the problem. Also nothing should damage based off a % of anything. It's proc damage, damage caused from your armor. This particular type of damage probably shouldn't use stats to modify it. Same with healing proc sets. If it heals for 2k then that is what it heals for regardless of any stats at all. This way they can dial in precisely the power that they want each proc set to have, and it is totally independent of any fluctuation in stats.

Waffennacht

Again, I'm betting we will see changes to the system on the notes week after monday

JerBearESO

Ranger209 wrote: »

Maybe the answer is that they shouldn't scale off of anything at all, nor be affected by anything at all. If a proc has a tool tip of 2k then it hits for 2k regardless of any offensive stats the attacking player has, and regardless of any defensive stats the target has. It always hits everyone for 2k by anyone who uses it. The scaling of any type seems to be the problem. Also nothing should damage based off a % of anything. This way they can dial in precisely the power that they want each proc set to have.

I don't think essentially making every proc oblivion damage is a good idea.... but the point about % scaling is true, that junk is dangerous.

ResidentContrarian

What ZOS needs to understand, and what players need to bring to ZOS attention, is that scaling sets off of stats isn't working properly because the mag, stam, and health builds are unbalanced in the first place.

ZOS' scaling for proc sets is setup in a way where mag, stam, and hp builds are balanced. But everyone knows that:

[*] Stam players can stack weapon damage easier than mag players can stack spell damage
[*] Mag players can stack max mag easier than stam players can stack max stam
[*] HP is the easiest stat to stack in the game and be effective because of tristat runes, trifood, heavy armor, 5-1-1, etc.


Scaling is not 1:1 for builds in general, and that is one reason why the cutoff and scaling values need to be looked at in the first place. The inherent lack of balance means that builds can and will continue to exist that will take advantage of proc scaling in a way that simply lacks balance no matter what they do.

ZOS must introduce a proper cuttoff value, either a floor, a ceiling, or both of them, in order to reign in the power of these proc sets and leave them with enough effectiveness for the average player.

If not, then the entire change is pointless and it will only serve to create less balance in PvP then we have already seen on the live server.

karekiz

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

The worst thing they could do from my opinion is raising requied value of weapon/spell dmg players need to get to old numbers. This would hurt magplayers a lot.. I think before sets needs to be adressed difference between weapon damage and spell dmg.

Love how we are ignoring the 5-7k pen you all get lol.

I mean for PvP unsure, but PvE wise the scaling is a tad wonky even with Pen bonus for LIght, and I assume the idea from ZoS is to reign in procs while making procs better in PvE.

This is on a 6 mil dummy with no debuffs applied. Med simply outscaled it, add in debuffs from tank and Light users scale even worse. Roughly 500 more dmg from cal on a stam then on a mag <Templar class>



vs

Waffennacht

Lol just wanna say, proc sets could curve like Sorc Pets, adding 700 spell dmg increases the ability's damage by 200 lmfao

Orpheaus

A couple good points I've noticed that I didn't mention in my initial post that bear repeating, The 1:1 is inherently flawed because stam classes have an advantage in how easy we can push our numbers higher than mag classes. Not saying Mag classes don't have benefits but as it relates to the current discussion (Proc scaling) stam has a defined advantage.

The other good point I noticed was someone mentioning make the sets flat values. I understand why people are concerned about this but, if they're not willing to implement my initial suggestion of 1 proc set per player in PvP, I would like to see the values significantly reduced but changed to true damage.

A different MMO I played years ago had a ring that would proc a HoT that would heal you for about 101 every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. Max characters at the time had about 10k HP. As you can see it wasn't a huge game changer, it was a nice flavour adder as someone mentioned.

Procs shouldn't DEFINE how we play they should just give us a nice little boost or bonus ON TOP of how we play.

katorga

Firstmep wrote: »

Orpheaus wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think to many people are buying to much into a tool tip number. To get those high numbers the person is obviously completely sacrificing penetration. Most pvpers are running resistance numbers at least in the 25k range if not higher. Those numbers get knocked down quickly once you add in battle spirit, resistances, and any other mitigation available.

You clearly haven't watched the videos on this. I recommend looking up Kristofer ESO and seeing his vid on this. He is doing the levels of damage I mentioned with the health I mentioned quite easily. So perhaps it is you who is "Buying too much into a tool tip number."

To others I do agree that in the past ZOS has fixed things that were widely panned. But only if it was intensely and repetitively emphasized to them how detrimental a change would be. That's why it's so important that we hammer them with tests and videos and parses to show them how bad this will be.

Jack Daniel in that video has 1.4 Stam regen on a 2h bow toon and 16k max Stam. In actual fight he'd run out of resources in a heartbeat. Don't get me wrong he usually play these kinda low sustain high dmg builds, but most people wouldn't run that.

It's nice to showcase extreme builds like that, but the reality of what people will actually be able to run isn't this bleak.

I do think proc scaling is far too generous right now, but please, take a look at some of these builds before you think anyone would run them.

You may not get by on 1600 regen but a lot do. No point building more regen than you need. The point of the changes is that you build the minimum resource and regen that “you” need and dump everything else into damage to max procs while keeping your heal/skills unchanged.

40k stam / 6k dmg = 20k stam / 8k dmg for skills, but the second one buffs procs outta sight.