[The Blackwood Chapter] Huge problem and what is wrong with it?

simpledude31998

Brief answer to the question - it's paywall.

I am concerned that very little attention has been paid to this huge problem.
So, I'll start by saying that I love TESO. I discuss it with my friends, also i always recommend it when our dialog flows into the topic about games. So far I have personally recruited 5 people to buy and play this MMO (I understand that this is a drop in the ocean, but I do not pretend to be a promoter). And my main argument is that there is no PAYWALL.

Unfortunately, things are changing now.

What is wrong with upcoming BW chapter?

The main problem is that - they literally do not provide anything new that could be useful and worth spending money for.
What does it mean?
First, it should be mentioned that we, as players, could not get the "Chapter of Blackwood" by purchasing it in the game, only for real money. It's very important aspect.

Second, let's look and compare all previous chapters with this one:

• Morrowind - it provide us with the new class "Warden";
• Summerset - it provide us with new skill line "Psijic Order" and craft line "Jewelcrafting";
• Elsweyr - it provide us with new class "Necromancer";
• Greymoor - it provide us with 2 new skill lines and in game activity "Antiquities" (and in this update they released a mechanism that catches us on the hook like a fish);
• Blackwood - it provide us with "Companions";

Now let's find out what is the main difference between the first four chapters and the last one. The main difference is that all this 4 previous updates expand ours in game abilities, they provide something new , when the Blackwood Chapter - NOT.

Third, "Companions" and why there is no reason for purchasing Blackwood Chapter (personal opinion). Let's overview this upcoming update from the perspective of high level player who focused on PvE(highend content) or PvP.
Blackwood provide us:
//First i will overview in short term perspective and second in long one//

• New zone - alright cool, i and a lot of other players will finish it with 2-3 days (it's subjective opinion - i'm not really interesting in zone); New overland and crafting sets, and this is what i'm personally like that even without having a chapter, you still could craft or buy this sets on market;
• Oblivion portals - yeah interesting, but after 5+- runs unfortunately it will become routine (like dragons, dolmens, harrowstorm and activity in summerset); the same as in the previous paragraph;
• New trial - this is definitely what would be interesting for a lot of PvE players(i know that there are a lot of group which will finis it in first week and collect all the sets from it, but i belive that we could account this point as the main advantege and reason to purchaise BW);
  Sets from it, unlike land or craft sets, can't be obtained in the game market, so if you do not have BW, this means that you cannot collect these sets. And here is another thing which i really appreciate in TESO - you can't obtain cool or META gear just simply purchasing new chapter, you need to make an effort to pass vTrial, it will cost your time and your skill. Also even if the new trial sets will be a slightly better in PvE there is nothing wrong with it, because PvE, unlike PvP, is not rigidly bound to the META, there are a vast of other options to create your build;
• Main feature of BW - Companions (it is important to note, that main feature of the previous 4 updates was reason for buying it). What they will provide to us? Let's look where we can use them:
  1) Overland(Public dungeons/ delves) - from my (my friends and general highend player) perspective I have already gone through all this content, that's why i'm simply will not use them in this sort of content; From perspective of general low lvl player or players who are in range of ~160-500 CP, sure it will be cool to have companions, BUT it will not expand their abilitis or experiance, it will serve like unnessery addition, I will allow myself to compare them with merchant or banker from crownstore.
  
  2) PvE content (dungeons or trials) - I aware that a tiny amount of players like to make dungeouns solo and that's why companions will really helpful addition to them, but again it's also only addition not something new like skill line or class. On the other hand there are genereal players which 100% will LF real players to pass dungeon or trial, i can't imagine myself and my friend passing vSP dung with our companions it will be redicilous and silly.
  
  3) PvE(solo arenas) - NOPE;
  
  4) PvP(BG, Cyro, IC) - NOPE;
  
• And finnaly what is BW about? It's about Mythic and "Antiquities". That is the main problem. I truly don't understand why no one reveal this issue. We already buy GM chapter and antiquities system with it, but ZO$ are trying sell to us it again. Let's look at it closer.
  

Fourthly, Mythics. From launching GM on live servers i was aware that for collecting, for example, ring of malacath i need to visit Wrothgar to find lead. Wrothgar - DLC zone, that's why to obtain this META item, besides of GM chapter you need be able to access Wrothgar, however we could access Wrothgar by buying it though in game activity(exchange your gold to crowns), so there is a legal way to solve this problem and there is no paywall.
And here we come to new BW chapter. What it provide for PvP players - it provide us a thing for which we have already paid. It inroduced new META Mythic items, which will drastically affect on PvP. And the thing is that you can obtain this items only by purchaising new update - it's PAYWALL. As i said before, PvP unlike PvE, are rigid bounded on META gear (Malacath - perfect example, whole year on BG or IC you could see wardens and other stam classes use it). Additionally there is no need to make an effort to obtain this "NEW" META gear, all you need it's just simply pay for it find it.

Conclusion:

1) PvP'rs artificially forced to buy BW due to mythics(which are META), there is no any other reason for these kind of players to purchase it.
2) Only reason for high end and general PvE players is that they could buy it to get access to the trial.
On my opinion, unfortunately, there is no enough reason to purchaise BW and i'm very dissapointed about this policy of forcing players to buy new chapter only for gear, they set up paywall. From this moment when i will start to talk with my friends about TESO i will no longer protect this game by saying that "There is not PAYWALL system", because it's actually exist.
I really want the policy of selling chapters to change, rather than forcing you to buy what you've already bought. And also so that this topic receives due attention.
P.S. English is not my native, so i'm apologize for mistakes.
P.P.S.This thread is just about my personal concerns about ZOS sales policy and how the developers are artificially trying to impose the chapter (for a PvP community), which I find unacceptable.
I will not buy it (and yes I can afford it). Also I will replace the term P2W with term of paywall, in order not to confuse and mislead you.

Mefromnorway

Feel this game digging their own grave. And i feel we pay for play a game still in betamodus. I log in yesterday and craftbag bug its useless. Same with merchant cant sell them items. We pay for craftbag we paid for buy merchant 5000 crown. And they not working. Log in today evrything still same nothing is fixed.

Daraklus

I think you're a bit late to the party with throwing the accusation that the game is "P2W".

When Morrowing launched? Oh the Wardens are P2W
When Summerset launched? Jewelrycrafting is a P2W feature
Elsweyr? Necromancers are again a P2W class
Greymoor? I... Guess there were some people claiming that Mythics were P2W

And now the story repeats itself with Blackwood.

Danikat

I'm confused, the first half of your post seems to be saying that the problem is there's no reason to buy Blackwood, then the second half of your post is all about feeling pressured to buy it because it does include useful items. Which of these two is the problem?

Although if it's the first one - that you think there's no need to buy it - then the solution is simple: don't buy it.

If it's the second one just wait for the inevitable shift in the meta when someone takes the time to figure out how to counter the flavour of the month builds relying on those items and something else takes their place.

Also I think you're too quick to dismiss the new zone and storyline, just because it's not something you personally are interested in. I suspect there's far more PvE players who do quests than ones who do trials (which isn't specific to ESO, casual MMO players are usually the majority in any game). It may mean you don't think you need to buy Blackwood and can wait until it's discounted or downgraded to a DLC and included in the crown store next year but that doesn't mean no one will want to buy it or enjoy it when they do.

Finally it's a relatively minor point but Blackwood is not the first chapter to be sold for real money, all the previous ones worked the same way - for the first year they're only available for real money through the website or various online stores, then when the next chapter comes out they're rebranded as DLC and included in the crown store and as part of ESO+. I agree it's not a good deal for subscribers to have to choose between paying extra to get it now or waiting a year, but it's not a new decision, that's been the case since Morrowind. (For people like me who don't subscribe it's largely a non-issue, either I buy the chapter directly or I buy crowns to get it, either way it comes to the same thing.)

divnyi

IMO paywall for necros and wardens, who are tier1 meta, is also p2w.

But I do understand your concern. If Gaze of Sithis goes live in any way that supports fully-stacked DDs to be bruisers in 1 item, I'll probably lose my interest to the game. Especially that they were warned in PTS thread.

simpledude31998

Daraklus wrote: »

I think you're a bit late to the party with throwing the accusation that the game is "P2W".

When Morrowing launched? Oh the Wardens are P2W
When Summerset launched? Jewelrycrafting is a P2W feature
Elsweyr? Necromancers are again a P2W class
Greymoor? I... Guess there were some people claiming that Mythics were P2W

And now the story repeats itself with Blackwood.

The difference is that all these previous chapters offered us something new, something that we can use in the long term, and I personally bought them because I was interested in new featurse which they provided us. But now there is no reason (new feature doesn't play as meaningful role as it played before) for buying it, except of need to get new Mythics.

hafgood

Its not p2w. Its pay for the latest expansion as it always has been and always will be. Wait for a year and you can buy it with crowns or have it included in eso+

This is the model that has always been used for this game and always will be. The only alternative would be to make the game subscription based, a sub that everyone would have to pay to play the game. The game has to be funded somehow and one of those ways is the annual expansion.

Stanx

It's not pay to win, it's new content. This community seems to only be happy when they get stuff for free, and even then there are people complaining.

This is a product that has had countless hours / money put into it, of course they're going to charge....

divnyi

Danikat wrote: »

I'm confused, the first half of your post seems to be saying that the problem is there's no reason to buy Blackwood, then the second half of your post is all about feeling pressured to buy it because it does include useful items. Which of these two is the problem?

Problem is - there is no new skills or new experience, they just created blatantly overpowered mythic item and that's the only thing that is useful for PvPers from this chapter. Creating OP items doesn't take much time or effort, I don't feel like it is a good way to sell new content.

highkingnm

Oh boy, time for the annual “new content is P2W unless there is literally no point to getting it” threads. See you all in time for next year’s.

Mythreindeer

Some will always feel that anything you have to pay for is P2W.

In getting Companions with Blackwood you are getting something big. If you don't like Companions don't buy Blackwood. If you feel you need the Mythics offered in Blackwood then buy it. Similarly you don't have to play Wardens or Necromancers.

I've played many games that have degenerated into pure P2W or pay to avoid a massive grind. ESO isn't that game. We all have to decide for ourselves when we feel that point may be and decide to keep playing or not. I keep playing ESO.

divnyi

Mythreindeer wrote: »

If you feel you need the Mythics offered in Blackwood then buy it.

If you don't need companions part, it is literally "pay to get OP item".

Mythreindeer

divnyi wrote: »

Mythreindeer wrote: »

If you feel you need the Mythics offered in Blackwood then buy it.

If you don't need companions part, it is literally "pay to get OP item".

If you feel that way then don't buy it. If it will affect your enjoyment of the game either way you must decide how to move forward for yourself. Participate or not.

simpledude31998

Danikat wrote: »

I'm confused, the first half of your post seems to be saying that the problem is there's no reason to buy Blackwood, then the second half of your post is all about feeling pressured to buy it because it does include useful items. Which of these two is the problem?

The problem is in ZOS sales policy. Since last year I was afraid that they would manipulate by placing OP Mythic items in new chapter. That's exactly what happened. And i just want to reveal this problem. I know a lot of people who will buy BW just because of Mythics(they artificially forced to do it), this is not only my problem. And the problem is in manipulation, that ZOS don't provide us something that worth 2 pay full price( really i don't know person who will buy this chapter because it's main feature) they provide us with content which we already bought and thus create paywall.

divnyi

Mythreindeer wrote: »

If you feel that way then don't buy it. If it will affect your enjoyment of the game either way you must decide how to move forward for yourself. Participate or not.

We are paying customers of the game - I buy lots of stuff in crown store, bought all previous expansions and playing with ESO+. I'd rather not have this situation in the first place, as this is certainly downfall of the monetisation model. OP is right to create a thread to voice his concerns. I share them too.

I don't mind them creating new mythics, as soon as they make interesting new playstyles.

I will hate them if they launch tierS mythic just to nerf it in a half a year (as if it is not obvious it is broken just by one look on it).

Stanx

simpledude31998 wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I'm confused, the first half of your post seems to be saying that the problem is there's no reason to buy Blackwood, then the second half of your post is all about feeling pressured to buy it because it does include useful items. Which of these two is the problem?

The problem is in ZOS sales policy. Since last year I was afraid that they would manipulate by placing OP Mythic items in new chapter. That's exactly what happened. And i just want to reveal this problem. I know a lot of people who will buy BW just because of Mythics(they artificially forced to do it), this is not only my problem. And the problem is in manipulation, that ZOS don't provide us something that worth 2 pay full price( really i don't know person who will buy this chapter because it's main feature) they provide us with content which we already bought and thus create paywall.

This isn't a manipulation or a problem, this was always going to be the way they rolled out new content..

This has been their method of releasing new skills, items, services etc. from day 1. You're just complaining because you don't think this chapter has enough to cater to your specific playstyle.

Jackey

Am I the only one that buys the chapters for the quests, stories, exploration and lore?
The rest is just bonus stuff.

divnyi

Jackey wrote: »

Am I the only one that buys the chapters for the quests, stories, exploration and lore?
The rest is just bonus stuff.

ESO provides many different ways to have fun. If that's what you look from the game, then sure, it is good for you. But you also should understand that other people might have their idea of fun.

Everstorm

New zone - alright cool, i and a lot of other players will finish it with 2-3 days (it's subjective opinion - i'm not really interesting in zone); New overland and crafting sets, and this is what i'm personally like that even without having a chapter, you still could craft or buy this sets on market;

I always wonder why people who have no interest in questing and exploring decide to play an Elder Scrolls game and then complain that the main content of an expansion is questing and exploring when the entire franchise is based on QUESTING AND EXPLORING.

simpledude31998

Stanx wrote: »

simpledude31998 wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I'm confused, the first half of your post seems to be saying that the problem is there's no reason to buy Blackwood, then the second half of your post is all about feeling pressured to buy it because it does include useful items. Which of these two is the problem?

The problem is in ZOS sales policy. Since last year I was afraid that they would manipulate by placing OP Mythic items in new chapter. That's exactly what happened. And i just want to reveal this problem. I know a lot of people who will buy BW just because of Mythics(they artificially forced to do it), this is not only my problem. And the problem is in manipulation, that ZOS don't provide us something that worth 2 pay full price( really i don't know person who will buy this chapter because it's main feature) they provide us with content which we already bought and thus create paywall.

This isn't a manipulation or a problem, this was always going to be the way they rolled out new content..

This is exactly what I am talking about. If they want to sell new chapter so let them release new content. And this is a completely correct concept of promoting the game, I fully support it. BUT If i already bought chapter which provide me with "Antiquities" i should be able to use it, but i can't because they decide to present "old opportunities" as "new" one. In simple words, they artificially force me to buy what I have already bought. And if I don’t buy, then the whole year will be weaker than other players.

Jackey

divnyi wrote: »

Jackey wrote: »

Am I the only one that buys the chapters for the quests, stories, exploration and lore?
The rest is just bonus stuff.

ESO provides many different ways to have fun. If that's what you look from the game, then sure, it is good for you. But you also should understand that other people might have their idea of fun.

I have fun with other parts of the game too. I'm in a large pvp guild and regularly do bgs and Cyrodiil.
I wouldn't pay for a new chapter just to get one new item that may be good for a couple of patches.
But you're right, I'm not going to argue how others want to spend their money.

Abelon

The good old "this new chapter is p2w" thread.

This is just how mmos make money aside from subscriptions and microtransactions. This is normal. Do you think mmos like WoW or ffxiv don't get new gear or new classes or whatever new systems with their expansions?

Also your thread and comments are all over the place. You mention 3 different problems in the thread, those being "not enough new content to want to buy the expansion," "some content, like mythics? being p2w" and lastly "mythics being sold again in a new chapter." Already the second and third one contradict the first. If people want to buy mythics then the chapter clearly has content that makes it worth buying. I don't exactly see a proper explanation which content you consider p2w and why so I can't comment.

As for mythics being sold again... I don't see the problem. You could similarly argue that "I already paid for quests in the base game, why am I forced to pay for quests again in the chapters? They belong to the same system and therefore I should get all new quests for free!" Just because we had mythics in Greymoor doesn't mean we shouldn't have new mythics in Blackwood.

If you only want mythics and feel that they are not worth the price of the chapter, don't buy the chapter. It's that simple. Most people buy chapters for multiple aspects and are therefore fine with paying it's price.

hafgood

They don't force you to buy anything.

It is optional.

Buy and get access to the new bits it brings to the game, personally I hate the idea of companions and don't want them in the game. They have no appeal to me at all. Other bits such as the quests and trial I will enjoy.

However, after a lot of consideration I went ahead and bought the chapter, there is enough other stuff in it to make me spend the money.

But if there is not enough in it to make it worth your while don't buy it. Learn to counter the players with the mythic items in PvP, learn ways to take them down, they will die you just have to find the weakness

divnyi

Abelon wrote: »

Do you think mmos like WoW or ffxiv don't get new gear or new classes or whatever new systems with their expansions?

There is no "new systems" from PvP perspective, just new gear.

RedMuse

It feels like the whole argument is based on, "the game needs to earn money and I have a problem with that". Which... okay I guess.

Lugaldu

I really don't understand how someone can get upset about having to buy the new chapter for new Mythic items - also if they should be the only interesting thing for someone (for me there are other things in the chapter far more interesting, like the new landscapes, new stories, new music, new housing items and yes, also the companions are interesting for roleplaying - and I will not rush through everything in 2 days).
I mean, if I want new pants, then I have to buy them and don't go into the store and say "I've bought pants here in the past, I expect all new pants to be free."

Lamagrokie

Guys, most of you have become attached to the fact that this is the same story that happens from year to year, but the fact is that the author's concern is that this time the situation has changed a lot.
As a PvP player, I can fully understand him, since the new chapter does not include anything that might interest me. The thing is that by introducing the mythical into a new chapter, they force us to buy it. However, we have already paid for them, why do we need to pay again? The answer is obvious. This is the move the ZOS made to attract the PVP audience.
This is what the author says. Objectively, in the new chapter there is nothing for the pvp community (I hope no one will argue with this), they understood this and therefore decided to introduce strong mythical objects in order to at least somehow attract them. This is what manipulation implies.
This topic is not about P2W or Paywall, ​​but about the fact that such a sales policy is extremely aggressive and impudent.

Abelon

Lamagrokie wrote: »

Guys, most of you have become attached to the fact that this is the same story that happens from year to year, but the fact is that the author's concern is that this time the situation has changed a lot.
As a PvP player, I can fully understand him, since the new chapter does not include anything that might interest me. The thing is that by introducing the mythical into a new chapter, they force us to buy it. However, we have already paid for them, why do we need to pay again? The answer is obvious. This is the move the ZOS made to attract the PVP audience.
This is what the author says. Objectively, in the new chapter there is nothing for the pvp community (I hope no one will argue with this), they understood this and therefore decided to introduce strong mythical objects in order to at least somehow attract them. This is what manipulation implies.
This topic is not about P2W or Paywall, ​​but about the fact that such a sales policy is extremely aggressive and impudent.

You say this topic is not about p2w or paywall yet OP says "From this moment when i will start to talk with my friends about TESO i will no longer protect this game by saying that "There is not P2W system", because it's actually exist." as well as "i'm very dissapointed about this policy of forcing players to buy new chapter only for gear, they set up paywall. "

Lugaldu

Lamagrokie wrote: »

The thing is that by introducing the mythical into a new chapter, they force us to buy it. However, we have already paid for them, why do we need to pay again?

When has anyone already paid for NEW items? Do you think that the Mythic items were introduced with Greymoor and that means that all future items will always be given at once for free to everybody even when they dont buy the new chapter? That is, sorry to have to say that, unrealistic and also a bit naive. The developers don't do their work for fun or for charity. And also all new styles or motifs etc. can only be aquired in the new zones at first.

Fhritz

Stanx wrote: »

It's not pay to win, it's new content. This community seems to only be happy when they get stuff for free, and even then there are people complaining.

This is a product that has had countless hours / money put into it, of course they're going to charge....

You know, forums in general aren't known for their kindness, even if it's 5% of the playerbase and 95% will be fine with this, you'll always see the 5% complain (often in an unconstructive way) about the slightest update the game can have, even if it's free.

Look, even some players are complaining about Endeavors, something Free, include in the base game and optionnal. So, when a new chapter launched with brand new mythics or something, do not exept the forum to be a kind place. yes, the criticisms ARE important, but most of the time the players here either complain about something that they haven't even tested or complain as if what they say was the opinion of everyone else. I mean, if you listen to everyone here, this game is literally trash and will die whenever this chapter will be out

To return to the topic, as @Daraklus said very well :

Daraklus wrote: »

I think you're a bit late to the party with throwing the accusation that the game is "P2W".

When Morrowing launched? Oh the Wardens are P2W
When Summerset launched? Jewelrycrafting is a P2W feature
Elsweyr? Necromancers are again a P2W class
Greymoor? I... Guess there were some people claiming that Mythics were P2W

And now the story repeats itself with Blackwood.

If you know how to play the game, mythics shouldn't be a real problem (Yes, even Gaze of Sithis). They'll be annoying, for sure, but not P2W

Daraklus

Everstorm wrote: »

New zone - alright cool, i and a lot of other players will finish it with 2-3 days (it's subjective opinion - i'm not really interesting in zone); New overland and crafting sets, and this is what i'm personally like that even without having a chapter, you still could craft or buy this sets on market;

I always wonder why people who have no interest in questing and exploring decide to play an Elder Scrolls game and then complain that the main content of an expansion is questing and exploring when the entire franchise is based on QUESTING AND EXPLORING.

It is a mystery to me as well, even had arguments with people who hate playing the game but play it anyway for one reason or another. I don't quite understand it.

Personally I bought Blackwood because I am interested in seeing the layout of ESO's interpretation of an area within Oblivion and to see what the quests are like. I would feel more excited however, if I could actually play through these zones with a max level character.