Need nerf to Purge and Rapid Maneuver

Kartalin

DTStormfox wrote: »

The problem of Purge is, in my opinion, that it removes all negative effects

It removes 3 negative effects for up to 6 random group members. Frequently it removes roots and snares first instead of the more dangerous dots.

The only thing that removes all negative effects is the templar ritual purify synergy which only one ally can use per ritual cast. There's also an armor set that removes all negative effects from an ally every x seconds.

Edit: also before people start complaining out of ignorance, the purify synergy can only be used every 20 seconds per person (as it is with every synergy).

miteba

Another Nerf thread -.- This is spreading more quicker than light of speed

Why [snip] are you asking a Nerf for purges?
All internet already knows that ESOs next class will be the "Purger"...
...Meaning Templar class will lose the "extended ritual" skill most probably!

[Phun intended™]

[edited for baiting]

ResidentContrarian

miteba wrote: »

Another Nerf thread -.- This is spreading more quicker than light of speed

Why [snip] are you asking a Nerf for purges?
All internet already knows that ESOs next class will be the "Purger"...
...Meaning Templar class will lose the "extended ritual" skill most probably!

[Phun intended™]

Well because one button: heals %hp AoE, removes damage, and can be spammed (even though other %hp sources of healing are getting nerfed like dark cloak and warden artic blast/polar wind).

Then we have new proc sets that will make it worse, and the old ones, like Earthgore coming back soon.

Meaning that ball groups will have the absolute advantage v. everyone else even more than they already do now.

And

Most players don't like or find that balanced nor fun when a group of players can take all damage and and crush people because spamming two skills in the game give them an absolute advantage versus everyone else. This is especially true when ZOS continuously nerfs single target skills or gear but leaves "group" skills or gear alone giving them more relative power v. anyone outside of a group.

Players can pretend that it's not a problem, but even ball groupers know that it is. That's why they never fight other ball groups that use the same exact stalling tactics (ball group meta is now speed+purge+heal). It doesn't really take any "skill" like they claim when all the cards are stacked in their favor.

They can post their lame Youtube videos or even be the resident contrarian in this very discussion, but it doesn't change reality.

Pretty simple to understand, if you ask me.

[edited to remove quote]

DTStormfox

Kartalin wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

The problem of Purge is, in my opinion, that it removes all negative effects

It removes 3 negative effects for up to 6 random group members. Frequently it removes roots and snares first instead of the more dangerous dots.

The only thing that removes all negative effects is the templar ritual purify synergy which only one ally can use per ritual cast. There's also an armor set that removes all negative effects from an ally every x seconds.

Edit: also before people start complaining out of ignorance, the purify synergy can only be used every 20 seconds per person (as it is with every synergy).

I know that. That isn't really what I meant with "all negative effects". I meant that it can remove all types of negative effects, not the number of negative effects it removes once cast.

Iriidius

It is too weak to purge process sets as a solo player and too strong for a group. Should maybe make it remove 5 negative effects for the caster and 2 for everybody else in the group. Or the group should only be purged once every 5 seconds. Or there could be a limit how many negative effects can be purged at all.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think that all abilities that "affect you and your group" are affected by this weird game design problem that makes such abilities pretty much useless when solo, but the bigger the group the stronger those abilities gets. Efficient Purge is a great example.

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me...

What could potentially help is a base cost reduction (like 2-3K) but added additional cost per player in your group (just like Pale Order ring has healing reduction the more people are in the group).

That way purge will be buffed when using it solo, but it's effectiveness in group enviroment will drop.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me... .

Except that its not that cheap because it only hits 6 people max.
And also wardens and necro's say hi because they do have cheap if not free purge's.

ealdwin

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me... .

Except that its not that cheap because it only hits 6 people max.
And also wardens and necro's say hi because they do have cheap if not free purge's.

And it shouldn't be cheap. Cleansing effects in general aren't a bad thing to have in game (especially when looking from a dedicated healer perspective in PVE and PVP). But, they need to have their power balanced with a significant cost, even when on self. Which is why I personally am in favor of removing the cleanse from Warden's Netch and doubling the cost of Necro's Expunge.

If any change could happen to Purge (the skill), then I'd perhaps look at moving it to the Restoration staff skill tree (not sure what that would look like), so that it had the requirement of a certain weapon to run.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ealdwin wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me... .

Except that its not that cheap because it only hits 6 people max.
And also wardens and necro's say hi because they do have cheap if not free purge's.

And it shouldn't be cheap. Cleansing effects in general aren't a bad thing to have in game (especially when looking from a dedicated healer perspective in PVE and PVP). But, they need to have their power balanced with a significant cost, even when on self. Which is why I personally am in favor of removing the cleanse from Warden's Netch and doubling the cost of Necro's Expunge.

If any change could happen to Purge (the skill), then I'd perhaps look at moving it to the Restoration staff skill tree (not sure what that would look like), so that it had the requirement of a certain weapon to run.

Why shouldn't purge be cheap? Is it prohibitively expensive to put debuffs on someone?

dsalter

the real solution to these issues is a counter spell.
a magicka burn on enemies and a healer blocker.
more specifically make new or rework old abilities into additional healing blockers and a magicka burn.

• inevitable detonation becoming a magicka bomb if purged would be great.
• vampire drain being able to drain magicka AND health would be great.
• twin slashes (the DW ability) being able to block healing would be fantastic for the non-meta players.
• DW ultimate being able to block healing would be decent.
• mages guild's DoT spell being able to burn magicka would be great.
• Fighters guild silver bolts being able to block healing would be great.
• soul trap being able to block some healing and burn magicka would make it a fantastic ability.

for the grand fanale, making both Consuming Darkness and Radial Sweep burn magicka and block healing since templars and non-gankblades struggle to perform in PvP.

and by magicka burn i mean actual magicka bar damage as if it was health.
healing absorbtion already exists on timestop, but we need more sources of it, timestop could also use a slight cast speed buff

there now we have a ton of new tools to use to help melt down the infinite resource tankers and ball groups.

ealdwin

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me... .

Except that its not that cheap because it only hits 6 people max.
And also wardens and necro's say hi because they do have cheap if not free purge's.

And it shouldn't be cheap. Cleansing effects in general aren't a bad thing to have in game (especially when looking from a dedicated healer perspective in PVE and PVP). But, they need to have their power balanced with a significant cost, even when on self. Which is why I personally am in favor of removing the cleanse from Warden's Netch and doubling the cost of Necro's Expunge.

If any change could happen to Purge (the skill), then I'd perhaps look at moving it to the Restoration staff skill tree (not sure what that would look like), so that it had the requirement of a certain weapon to run.

Why shouldn't purge be cheap? Is it prohibitively expensive to put debuffs on someone?

It has to do with the level of defense that purge (and cleanses in general) offer. Cleanses have the power to completely negate a good bit of incoming damage as well as remove debuffs (depending on what is removed). Damage and debuffs that took a few seconds and resources to apply. The reason Templars were able to survive in the Scalebreaker DoT meta, was because they had the ability to remove chunks of incoming damage at a time.

I'm not saying purge (and cleanses in general) shouldn't exist in game. They should. But the defensive power they offer needs to be balanced through cost. As all abilities are. If the whole purpose of resource management was to negate the need for cooldowns on abilities and enable more quick, responsive combat, then resource management needs to be used as a method of balancing abilities based on their power. Purge is powerful, so a high cost is warranted. For dedicated healers who focus on resource regeneration more than other specs, that cost is less of an obstacle. But, for the general PVP population, a high cost helps balance the ability. If you know that casting purge is going to take a good chunk of the Magicka pool, then you use it when it makes sense, rather than spamming it.

CrustyCroco

With some of the opinions on nerfing group tools I wonder since when an mmo is supposed to be balanced around "solo" play and not around group play.
Most "solo" players that have problems with ballgroups are in fact not SOLO, otherwise they in 99% of the situations wouldn't even been attacked by that group.
I don't really see the reason, why Cyrodiil should be balanced around players running with their faction stack hiding in overwhelming numbers. Purge is needed to somehow counter that, which yes, makes this skill strong, but also necessary, because the amount of easily applied debuffs is absolutely crazy.
And it's not like there wouldn't be skills that make purge less efficient, also a group sacrifices a lot of ressources into dedicated purgers, which in fact reduces their potential overall power quite a bit just by having to use them.

Removed healstacking would be interesting. There were a lot of complaints from "solo" healers for example, when healing was group only. What happens, if only one instance of a HoT applies? It probably gonna be an even worse HoT cast fiesta than it atm is, to either overwrite another persons HoT on a friendly target or to be the first who applies it.

SHOW

CrustyCroco wrote: »

With some of the opinions on nerfing group tools I wonder since when an mmo is supposed to be balanced around "solo" play and not around group play.

....

Removed healstacking would be interesting. There were a lot of complaints from "solo" healers for example, when healing was group only. What happens, if only one instance of a HoT applies? It probably gonna be an even worse HoT cast fiesta than it atm is, to either overwrite another persons HoT on a friendly target or to be the first who applies it.

Grouping is good for the game.

Exploiting flawed mechanics is not good for the game.

We can all agree there.

This discussion is simply trying to fix some of the more easily exploitable mechanics.

Like purge bot spamming and heal stacking.

These are not examples of "high level" skilled gameplay. It is literally 2 buttons which grant near invincibility. This should not be rewarded as such.

1) Make people responsible for their own purge. If they don't purge, that is their choice.

2) Make the same heal not stack.

This is not hard.

CrustyCroco

SHOW wrote: »

CrustyCroco wrote: »

With some of the opinions on nerfing group tools I wonder since when an mmo is supposed to be balanced around "solo" play and not around group play.

....

Removed healstacking would be interesting. There were a lot of complaints from "solo" healers for example, when healing was group only. What happens, if only one instance of a HoT applies? It probably gonna be an even worse HoT cast fiesta than it atm is, to either overwrite another persons HoT on a friendly target or to be the first who applies it.

Grouping is good for the game.

Exploiting flawed mechanics is not good for the game.

We can all agree there.

This discussion is simply trying to fix some of the more easily exploitable mechanics.

Like purge bot spamming and heal stacking.

These are not examples of "high level" skilled gameplay. It is literally 2 buttons which grant near invincibility. This should not be rewarded as such.

1) Make people responsible for their own purge. If they don't purge, that is their choice.

2) Make the same heal not stack.

This is not hard.

If grouping is good, why would group tools that incentivise groupplay be nerfed, so even more groups are having to seek protection from their own faction stack?

I'm not against purge being easier accessable for ungrouped players for every class though, similar to templars or necros.
In that case groups also maybe don't have to waste ressources into purge roles anymore, so i'm not too much against it to be honest. A shake up in the group build meta could be nice.
On the other hand, some classes have different offensive and defensive mechanics and would need some rebalance.
And if the group purge is going to be nerfed and the self purge less efficient, the amount of debuffs also have to balanced.

Also, I stated, that groups sacrifice a lot of ressources for purgers and that there are abilities in the game, that make the life of a purger very hard, purging the right debuffs almost impossible and some aren't purgeable at all. The amount of easily applied debuffs would be a lot more unbalanced without the purge counterplay. You just snipped that off of my comment and proceeded with the usual nonfactual "2 button victory" comment.

Regarding removed healstacking there were plenty of examples here in the forum, why that could be problematic for unorganised players. Organised groups will find a way to work around and use all the different healing skills in the game, would actually be refreshing to shake that up a bit.

Two of the biggest questions for me are, how rewarding is groupplay supposed to be? What expactations are all kind of different players joining Cyrodiil? Some may see things overpowered, just because they have an expactation to be "the one hero that saved Tamriel" and now expects to be strong in every situation facing, especially with an army around them.

I rather have more strong group buffs (maybe even just for having a group running), that intencivise grouping, so it's easier for everyone to run in a semi-/ organised group and then intencivise to spread around the map with coordination between different groups for worthwile rewards to do that, instead of faction stacking from one keep to the next closest one with 60 people. And that's not to buff my own group, that's for getting better competetion and groups to fight against, rather than fighting ungrouped players, that barely fight back with the right tools that they choose to not use, which plays a big part in the perceived unbalance.

On PC EU there is not even a handful of good groups ("good" as in being able to take objectives while being heavily outnumbered or in GvG), and even though others use those group tools, they still don't have the automatic "2 button win" and struggle a lot.

I didn't deny that purge is strong, but nerfing groupplay more and more (latest example minor and major buffs, cleanse got nerfed too in the past etc.) also doesn't seem right from this perspective, just to enable the "solo" player running with their faction stack.


Overall the best thing that could happen to Cyro short-, mid- and longterm is improved performance still. The fast paste action combat with "smart" targeting makes this kinda impossible tho with the limited server FPS and infrastructure. I had small hopes that some of the aoe reworks mentioned in the patchnotes might help, but that's only a few skills (mainly with synergies) and they still have to make the range checks to apply to the correct target.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ealdwin wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It costs 5K magicka, so even magicka builds can not "spam" it. Also if they are solo, it is 5K per player. If casted in 12 man group - then it is like 400 cost... Imagine playing solo and being able to have cheap (almost free) negative effects removal.

Sounds "broken" if you ask me... .

Except that its not that cheap because it only hits 6 people max.
And also wardens and necro's say hi because they do have cheap if not free purge's.

And it shouldn't be cheap. Cleansing effects in general aren't a bad thing to have in game (especially when looking from a dedicated healer perspective in PVE and PVP). But, they need to have their power balanced with a significant cost, even when on self. Which is why I personally am in favor of removing the cleanse from Warden's Netch and doubling the cost of Necro's Expunge.

If any change could happen to Purge (the skill), then I'd perhaps look at moving it to the Restoration staff skill tree (not sure what that would look like), so that it had the requirement of a certain weapon to run.

Why shouldn't purge be cheap? Is it prohibitively expensive to put debuffs on someone?

It has to do with the level of defense that purge (and cleanses in general) offer. Cleanses have the power to completely negate a good bit of incoming damage as well as remove debuffs (depending on what is removed). Damage and debuffs that took a few seconds and resources to apply. The reason Templars were able to survive in the Scalebreaker DoT meta, was because they had the ability to remove chunks of incoming damage at a time.

I'm not saying purge (and cleanses in general) shouldn't exist in game. They should. But the defensive power they offer needs to be balanced through cost. As all abilities are. If the whole purpose of resource management was to negate the need for cooldowns on abilities and enable more quick, responsive combat, then resource management needs to be used as a method of balancing abilities based on their power. Purge is powerful, so a high cost is warranted. For dedicated healers who focus on resource regeneration more than other specs, that cost is less of an obstacle. But, for the general PVP population, a high cost helps balance the ability. If you know that casting purge is going to take a good chunk of the Magicka pool, then you use it when it makes sense, rather than spamming it.

If someone chooses to focus on one area at the detriment of other areas, that's perfectly fine. The person purging with 3-4k regen isn't able to kill anyone 1v1. The problems have always been where people don't have to 'specialise' e.g. high health tank meta builds which can still do very high proc dmg etc.

if someone just wants to tank and do nothing offensively that's fine, as is the person who just wants to gank and has no defence.

DrSlaughtr

Purge is a little ridiculous in this game but it's not going anywhere.

Make efficient purge on self only, maybe slightly reduce cost considering wardens get free purge. Make Cleanse for group. Up the cost of Cleanse so it can't be spammed between heavy attacks w/ high recovery. Or leave the cost and place a 10 second cooldown.

We've all been on a wall shooting multiple lancers, meatbags, and dropping oils on a ram only to have it not do diddly because of siege shields and constant purges.

Hell, if it were up to me, I'd remove siege shield from the game completely. But that's a different topic.

SHOW

@CrustyCroco

Buddy.

I think ur missing the point.

The advantage of a skilled and coordinated group is... well their skill and coordination as a group.

not the exploiting of mechanics.

That part shouldn't even exist.

That part is completely unnecessary.

Grouping is its own advantage (depending on skill and coordination).

a good group communicates, moves together, focuses together, ults together, reacts together.

Let the better, more skilled group win.

Not which group is undottable with 10k AFK heals coming in per second.

That is not quality game play.

and sorry to say out loud but some of these groups are propped up a little more than others by those poor mechanics, which we are trying to address.

The groups movement and actions should decide the outcome, not the mindless hots.

I don't blame people for using the flawed tools a available, but c'mon, we can do better than that.

We all know the cheese, let's work together to make our game better

TheMightyRevan

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Ishtharo

Vizirith wrote: »

Ishtharo wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The cost of Efficient Purge for Purge morph is 5400 Magicka.
Even if it doubles, it's 10800.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.

Also, the Rapid Maneuver morph Charging Maneuver costs 6156 stamina.
Even if it quadruples, it's 24624.
It has a duration of 8 seconds.
There is also the Minor Expedition.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.
But with Charging Maneuver, the cost of Break Free is lost and Stun is deadly.

In this case, spamming Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver would probably require 6 professional staff.
The number of people in the group is 12, so half of that is needed.

That is a trade-off.

When Ballgroup spams Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver, it reduces attacks.
If the Ballgroup wants to increase its attacks and heals, it should give up spamming the Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver.

This suggestion sounds like a bad joke, but Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver are super over powered now.

But I first said a much better idea than that.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

So you just suggest a super crazy solution to make you slightly less crazy solution seem more sane?

Only organized groups will be able to use the abilities if you jack up the costs. A full pug group is not going to be able to dedicate 6 people to just spamming purge/rapids. A small group probably wont be able to have one person doing it. A ball group will adjust to this change better than anyone else.

If you change rapids's duration to 2 second then organized groups will get everyone to run race against time or whatever speed buff their class has. Either that or they will just cut it out all togeather and be 100% fine. Speed really isnt that important when facing a CC spamming zerg anyways.

If you make purge single target only without changing its cost, then the gap between classes with their own self purge and classes without grow further. Wardens, Necros, and Templars will make up the bulk of played classes.


Any nerf will affect pugs and small mans more than it will ball groups.


Also how are skill that are available to everyone in Cyrodiil unbalancing the game? Everyone has equal access to these tools.

Significantly increasing the cost of Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver makes Ballgroup much weaker.
This aidea greatly reduces the number of people who can focus on Ballgroup attacks and Heals.
However, this is an extreme story.

The only realistic ideas are:
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.
Or remove the Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition and change it to "removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 2 seconds".

[snip] You are missing the trees for the leaf.

Purge and Rapids are mechanics, that while yes are available to all, only make sense in a group setting. Removing those won't affect ball group, they will adjust and prosper as always. It will affect others who run these abilities despite their intended uses as well as those who run these for smaller groups (4 to 8 members).

What you are suggesting strengthens ball groups over all, and weakens smaller groups. That's what's realistic here, nto some narrow change that isn't fleshed out.

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group, so while yes I'm sure some 4 man group that I have yet to encounter in 7 years may be running it, it's probably less likely. OR the cost should scale and it be just as effective in a 4 man group as it is in a 12 man group.

But it's getting buffed so I guess it really was very weak for ball groups. Tbh I don't even know the last time I've seen a ball group run purge /s

Just as a point, Fishing Pact in Ravenwatch runs this skill in 4+ man groups when we have a healer, because I run it.

Edit: It's usefulness extends beyond a dedicated purge bot. It's invaluable for getting through breaches full of seige. You dont have to spam it for it to be good.

DrSlaughtr

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

TheMightyRevan

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

you dont seem to know how overpowered siege is since they buffed it, you almost get oneshot by lancers and coldfire ballistas, the pressure from them is insane and that with minimum effort, you can just sit safe on a wall. that sort of gameplay should not be encouraged, thats not pvp

DrSlaughtr

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

you dont seem to know how overpowered siege is since they buffed it, you almost get oneshot by lancers and coldfire ballistas, the pressure from them is insane and that with minimum effort, you can just sit safe on a wall. that sort of gameplay should not be encouraged, thats not pvp

I know very well. I play Cyro ever night and have for years. It's very easy to take a keep even with a full wall of siege if you have even one healer. A group can eat all sorts of damage UNLESS you're a bunch of glass cannons, in which case you have to be smarter about where you hit and make sure to spread apart.

If anything it's harder to defend than take because an organized group can ignore siege damage.

Defending siege should get a buff OR purge abilities (especially netch) should get a big hit, imo.

TheMightyRevan

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

you dont seem to know how overpowered siege is since they buffed it, you almost get oneshot by lancers and coldfire ballistas, the pressure from them is insane and that with minimum effort, you can just sit safe on a wall. that sort of gameplay should not be encouraged, thats not pvp

I know very well. I play Cyro ever night and have for years. It's very easy to take a keep even with a full wall of siege if you have even one healer. A group can eat all sorts of damage UNLESS you're a bunch of glass cannons, in which case you have to be smarter about where you hit and make sure to spread apart.

If anything it's harder to defend than take because an organized group can ignore siege damage.

Defending siege should get a buff OR purge abilities (especially netch) should get a big hit, imo.

just not true, one healer is not enough to take a keep that has a wall full of lancers and coldfires. you need a full grp with 2-3 healers and 2 purgers to be able, to get inside the inner. and even then its quite stressfull. or you have a big zerg i guess. especially in lag, when only every 2nd or 3rd skill goes out. its not just about the dots anyway, also about the direct dmg, especially from lancers. no group can just ignore siege dmg.

Joy_Division

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

you dont seem to know how overpowered siege is since they buffed it, you almost get oneshot by lancers and coldfire ballistas, the pressure from them is insane and that with minimum effort, you can just sit safe on a wall. that sort of gameplay should not be encouraged, thats not pvp

I know very well. I play Cyro ever night and have for years. It's very easy to take a keep even with a full wall of siege if you have even one healer. A group can eat all sorts of damage UNLESS you're a bunch of glass cannons, in which case you have to be smarter about where you hit and make sure to spread apart.

If anything it's harder to defend than take because an organized group can ignore siege damage.

Defending siege should get a buff OR purge abilities (especially netch) should get a big hit, imo.

Spoken like someone who has zero experience in group play.

KhajiitLivesMatter

.

DrSlaughtr

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

netch should get a buff ? lmao
its already a super op ability ?
@TheEndBringer

I said it should get nerfed. It currently does too many awesome things for zero cost.

Digiman

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

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Can you remove this threat aswell? It's not helpful, provides no support and is clearly baiting and one sided.

DrSlaughtr

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

if you want to nerf purge, you would also have to nerf siege e.g., to restore the balance

Respectfully disagree. Siege is too weak against constant purging. Maybe it would need to be slightly adjusted but flat out nerf? No way.

you dont seem to know how overpowered siege is since they buffed it, you almost get oneshot by lancers and coldfire ballistas, the pressure from them is insane and that with minimum effort, you can just sit safe on a wall. that sort of gameplay should not be encouraged, thats not pvp

I know very well. I play Cyro ever night and have for years. It's very easy to take a keep even with a full wall of siege if you have even one healer. A group can eat all sorts of damage UNLESS you're a bunch of glass cannons, in which case you have to be smarter about where you hit and make sure to spread apart.

If anything it's harder to defend than take because an organized group can ignore siege damage.

Defending siege should get a buff OR purge abilities (especially netch) should get a big hit, imo.

Spoken like someone who has zero experience in group play.

Um, excuse me? I only run in groups and everything I said is accurate. If you have even one healer laying down siege shield while hitting purge and Regen you can eat everything they throw at you. Nothing is stopping you from getting in that keep unless the opposition abandons their siege and pushes out in significant numbers.

The keep/castle/fort designs are also to blame. It's hard often to get good angles. It also doesn't help that parts of the keeps that make for good siege placement will magically disappear under you.

Outposts are even worse. You can compete avoid any counter siege by operating your ballistas while standing behind the pillars.

Add in the terrible third person camera for siege which is even worse when trying to shoot from the top of a keep and you have a situation where it's easier to offensively siege than defensively.

ResidentContrarian

dsalter wrote: »

the real solution to these issues is a counter spell.
a magicka burn on enemies and a healer blocker.
more specifically make new or rework old abilities into additional healing blockers and a magicka burn.

• inevitable detonation becoming a magicka bomb if purged would be great.
• vampire drain being able to drain magicka AND health would be great.
• twin slashes (the DW ability) being able to block healing would be fantastic for the non-meta players.
• DW ultimate being able to block healing would be decent.
• mages guild's DoT spell being able to burn magicka would be great.
• Fighters guild silver bolts being able to block healing would be great.
• soul trap being able to block some healing and burn magicka would make it a fantastic ability.

for the grand fanale, making both Consuming Darkness and Radial Sweep burn magicka and block healing since templars and non-gankblades struggle to perform in PvP.

and by magicka burn i mean actual magicka bar damage as if it was health.
healing absorbtion already exists on timestop, but we need more sources of it, timestop could also use a slight cast speed buff

there now we have a ton of new tools to use to help melt down the infinite resource tankers and ball groups.

Instead of hitting ball groups, this would just make all mag groups obsolete in Cyrodiil and/or make gank builds stronger and remove any little counterplay that is left in the game.

Real solution is to either put ramping cost or CD on purge so it can't be spammed as much. There's already a CD on certain skills that are single target and no where near as strong in terms of benefit (power lash, petrify, etc.), and every purging set also has a CD attached to it that is longer than the time it takes to regen the mag used to purge (unless you are a build with low regen, but you wouldn't be spamming it anyway).

Templar purge limited to self and synergy activation.

The purging CP even has a long CD, but the skill itself that requires no synergy or special activation requirements? Nah...

Makes little sense.

KhajiitLivesMatter

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the real solution to these issues is a counter spell.
a magicka burn on enemies and a healer blocker.
more specifically make new or rework old abilities into additional healing blockers and a magicka burn.

• inevitable detonation becoming a magicka bomb if purged would be great.
• vampire drain being able to drain magicka AND health would be great.
• twin slashes (the DW ability) being able to block healing would be fantastic for the non-meta players.
• DW ultimate being able to block healing would be decent.
• mages guild's DoT spell being able to burn magicka would be great.
• Fighters guild silver bolts being able to block healing would be great.
• soul trap being able to block some healing and burn magicka would make it a fantastic ability.

for the grand fanale, making both Consuming Darkness and Radial Sweep burn magicka and block healing since templars and non-gankblades struggle to perform in PvP.

and by magicka burn i mean actual magicka bar damage as if it was health.
healing absorbtion already exists on timestop, but we need more sources of it, timestop could also use a slight cast speed buff

there now we have a ton of new tools to use to help melt down the infinite resource tankers and ball groups.

Instead of hitting ball groups, this would just make all mag groups obsolete in Cyrodiil and/or make gank builds stronger and remove any little counterplay that is left in the game.

Real solution is to either put ramping cost or CD on purge so it can't be spammed as much. There's already a CD on certain skills that are single target and no where near as strong in terms of benefit (power lash, petrify, etc.), and every purging set also has a CD attached to it that is longer than the time it takes to regen the mag used to purge (unless you are a build with low regen, but you wouldn't be spamming it anyway).

Templar purge limited to self and synergy activation.

The purging CP even has a long CD, but the skill itself that requires no synergy or special activation requirements? Nah...

Makes little sense.

wouldnt fix anything
only thing happening is that zerg healers would struggle more
but ball groups would just give more playeres purge on the backbar and than coardinate it = nothing changes

finaly accept ballgroups there is no way to only nerf ball groups without destroying pvp