Need nerf to Purge and Rapid Maneuver

master_vanargand

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

No, close the difference.

A long time ago, when I tested AoE global cool down with Cyrodiil, the Ballgroup was much weaker and I easily beat the Ballgroup with PUG (no VC, no Purge, no Maneuver) many times.
At a later date, Ballgroup remembers giving up playing and not coming to Cyrodiil until this test was over.

My idea causes the same thing.

Fawn4287

geonsocal wrote: »

ummmm, and exactly what do some of the stamina based toons do???

just s.o.l. i guess...

purge from the support skill line is crazy expensive for a stam toon...

thinking about all the different classes now, but, pretty sure they don't all have access to some type of "purge" within their class skill...

the only class "purge" type abilities i can think of at the moment belong to templar and necromancer...

wish there was some type of potion which removed negative effects...

long ago now, but, i remember once equipping wyrd tree's blessing on my werewolf just to try and stop from not getting stuck every second during melee battles...

why does it seem everyone always want to make solo players lives in cyro more challenging...thanks goodness us random potatoes can at least heal one another again...

How does nerfing purge and rapids make solo play worse? These and stop time are the least solo friendly super high cost large group specced abilities in PvP

Vizirith

What they need to do is make costs scale. If you purge 1 person it costs like 3k, and every person after that it adds like a 600 cost. So in a 4 person group the cost is exactly the same. For the amount of damage it can mitigate in a 12 man group the cost is hilariously low.

Make it so that an individual can run purge (but still weaker than class based purges) and can actually be used by smaller groups.

Not to mention the massive buff purge spammers are getting right now on the pts.

YandereGirlfriend

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

This is a fantastic idea.

Kwoung

NM

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I dont think RM and Purge are even in the same ballpark. Being at or close to the speed cap just isnt that hard. Purge is the most broken skill in PVP. They could delete it for all I care. Making it self or 1 ally is a change that should have happened years ago at a minimum.

neferpitou73

If you get rid of purge it will be impossible to take keeps with all the counter-siege. Try standing under a ram and see how long you last without it. I can see the argument that they are overperforming but the alternative is worse.

Amottica

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

Anyron

neferpitou73 wrote: »

If you get rid of purge it will be impossible to take keeps with all the counter-siege. Try standing under a ram and see how long you last without it. I can see the argument that they are overperforming but the alternative is worse.

You dont have to ram keep to take it. You have balista and treb to do it too. And its faster with ram so it should come with price.

Siege should matter but right now most groups just purge it away. Its not like you would stay under boiling oil in real.

Purge is not even used mainly for purging sieges. They spam it to get rid of roots and dots

neferpitou73

Anyron wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

If you get rid of purge it will be impossible to take keeps with all the counter-siege. Try standing under a ram and see how long you last without it. I can see the argument that they are overperforming but the alternative is worse.

You dont have to ram keep to take it. You have balista and treb to do it too. And its faster with ram so it should come with price.

Siege should matter but right now most groups just purge it away. Its not like you would stay under boiling oil in real.

Purge is not even used mainly for purging sieges. They spam it to get rid of roots and dots

Dude I run groups. We mostly use it for siege. Getting rid of purge doesn't make ram "come with a price" it makes it impossible. Siege mostly certainly does matter. You can put an enormous amount of pressure on ram with siege right now, especially at hotly contested keeps. We get chased away from doors and chase others away from doors with siege. You can also counter-siege trebs and ballistae, which requires purges as well.

I'll agree it's overperforming when it comes to dots/roots. But I'd prefer them take a look at CC bugs/strengthen siege shield before they take a look at purge.

BardInSolitude

Anyron wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

If you get rid of purge it will be impossible to take keeps with all the counter-siege. Try standing under a ram and see how long you last without it. I can see the argument that they are overperforming but the alternative is worse.

You dont have to ram keep to take it. You have balista and treb to do it too. And its faster with ram so it should come with price.

Siege should matter but right now most groups just purge it away. Its not like you would stay under boiling oil in real.

Purge is not even used mainly for purging sieges. They spam it to get rid of roots and dots

Man, even with cleansing it's already pretty tough to stay under a ram if the defenders know how to use oils. Besides, most groups organised enough to have streamlined their cleansing are "too good" to ram and instead wait around for the zerg to siege.

On another note, Cleanse removes merely three negative effects, so how many dedicated cleansers do you think you can afford in a 12-man raid before you start missing out on damage or other roles? Two? Three? That's at most 9 effects purged per second (okay and maybe one instance of Ritual every 20s), assuming your cleansers aren't perma CCed or having a 500+ms ping from all the other ball groups spamming bar-swaps and CCs to clutter the ser... eh, I mean, to efficiently cancel animations.

Do you know how many negative effects a ball group can stack on another one in the span of a second? We're not even talking DoTs here. Just list all the Defiles, Maims, etc, as well as status effect and CCs and you're already at 10+. Besides, most organised groups don't even use DoTs, and those soloers or small scale players that do aren't a threat to ball groups with or without Cleanse.

So, who exactly benefits from a nerf to Cleanse? That's right: ball groups. And who doesn't benefit from a nerf to Cleanse? You guessed it: ball groups. If that seems bizarre, just remember what the principles of a ball group are: stay close to crown, cover each other's weaknesses and move fast. There is no single thing that you can remove from the game that would harm ball groups - hell, we would do it even without an actual group

P.S.: This post isn't directed specifically to Anyron, I'm also addressing the thread in general.

neferpitou73

BardInSolitude wrote: »

So, who exactly benefits from a nerf to Cleanse? That's right: ball groups. And who doesn't benefit from a nerf to Cleanse? You guessed it: ball groups. If that seems bizarre, just remember what the principles of a ball group are: stay close to crown, cover each other's weaknesses and move fast. There is no single thing that you can remove from the game that would harm ball groups - hell, we would do it even without an actual group

This right here. ZOS has placed themselves in a Morton's Fork where whatever they do to weaken ball groups weakens solo players even more, and whatever they do to strengthen solo players strengthens ball groups even more.

BardInSolitude

neferpitou73 wrote: »

BardInSolitude wrote: »

So, who exactly benefits from a nerf to Cleanse? That's right: ball groups. And who doesn't benefit from a nerf to Cleanse? You guessed it: ball groups. If that seems bizarre, just remember what the principles of a ball group are: stay close to crown, cover each other's weaknesses and move fast. There is no single thing that you can remove from the game that would harm ball groups - hell, we would do it even without an actual group

This right here. ZOS has placed themselves in a Morton's Fork where whatever they do to weaken ball groups weakens solo players even more, and whatever they do to strengthen solo players strengthens ball groups even more.

That's merely the reality of organised armies being better than individual soldiers...

FantasticFreddie

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

No.
Dots need counterplay. Purge is an important part of that.
Virtually all sources of major expedition are 4 seconds. That is not a long time. Learn to counter.

Earthewen

Purge is a solo player's best friend. Rapids has already been nerfed to the ground from what it was. Purge was also nerfed at one point. Neither of these two skills will change the outcome of playability in the game. We need better playability in order to make a difference in PvP at this point.

FantasticFreddie

Amottica wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

The plain truth is, there is no way to nerf organized pvp without nerfing small groups. Cutting group size in half didn't work-- same number of people in voice chat, we can still coordinate just fine and actually it helped organization because now we can have each team follow their respective crown for more sophisticated movements.
Nerfing heals? Good for ball groups. Cost increases to skills? Who do you think has the ability to assign supports resource management sets?
No matter what you try and do to cripple organized players working together, it will always, always backfire and hurt small groups more.

Earthewen

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

The plain truth is, there is no way to nerf organized pvp without nerfing small groups. Cutting group size in half didn't work-- same number of people in voice chat, we can still coordinate just fine and actually it helped organization because now we can have each team follow their respective crown for more sophisticated movements.
Nerfing heals? Good for ball groups. Cost increases to skills? Who do you think has the ability to assign supports resource management sets?
No matter what you try and do to cripple organized players working together, it will always, always backfire and hurt small groups more.

if they just remove the ability to over heal, that would go a long way.

neferpitou73

Earthewen wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

The plain truth is, there is no way to nerf organized pvp without nerfing small groups. Cutting group size in half didn't work-- same number of people in voice chat, we can still coordinate just fine and actually it helped organization because now we can have each team follow their respective crown for more sophisticated movements.
Nerfing heals? Good for ball groups. Cost increases to skills? Who do you think has the ability to assign supports resource management sets?
No matter what you try and do to cripple organized players working together, it will always, always backfire and hurt small groups more.

if they just remove the ability to over heal, that would go a long way.

No. Any nerf to healing will affect smaller sized groups/solo players more than ball groups.

BardInSolitude

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

The plain truth is, there is no way to nerf organized pvp without nerfing small groups. Cutting group size in half didn't work-- same number of people in voice chat, we can still coordinate just fine and actually it helped organization because now we can have each team follow their respective crown for more sophisticated movements.
Nerfing heals? Good for ball groups. Cost increases to skills? Who do you think has the ability to assign supports resource management sets?
No matter what you try and do to cripple organized players working together, it will always, always backfire and hurt small groups more.

Exactly. And that's what all these solo and small scale players don't get. Ball groups' main strength isn't in any one mechanic in particular but our cooperation, which makes us more than the sum of our parts.

Truly, the only way to nerf ball groups would be to impose penalties on grouping with other players, such as reducing your stats or healing output or what have you. Obviously, no one in their right minds would even consider, let alone test or implement, such an idea. And, honestly, even if that were the case, we'd simply run outside of groups but use comms to find a common location. They'd then have to implement a nerf based on ally proximity alone.

So to nerf ball groups you'd have to have a broken and ridiculous game that nobody in their right minds would want to play.

Last minute edit: ZOS devs, for the love of the Nine, please DO NOT take this as a suggestion!! Thank you.

Greasytengu

Amottica wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

It might make ball groups weaker, but it will make groups in general much weaker. Things like this will hurt unorganized groups harder than it will Ball groups.

I think the ideal solution is to make the unmorphed versions single target and cheap so its more accessible to smaller groups and soloers.

The first paragraph here seems to be a recurring response to changes proposed for Cyrodiil, that they will harm the unorganized group even more.

I think this shows it is good to discuss these things.

I think it comes down to a 'floor vs ceiling' type situation. The floor being solo and small mans, where the ceiling is the ball groups and zergs.

Think about the recent CP changed for example, The ceiling (Top tier PVE raids) loose a small part of their total power, those in the middle or on the floor loose the same amount of power, but their overall power is lower so the change is massive to them. The top stays at the top but the middle slides down a rung on the ladder.

Im more in favor of adding options that appeal to the floor than removing options that appeal to the ceiling because it has less chance to backfire and hurt the floor.

Ishtharo

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The cost of Efficient Purge for Purge morph is 5400 Magicka.
Even if it doubles, it's 10800.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.

Also, the Rapid Maneuver morph Charging Maneuver costs 6156 stamina.
Even if it quadruples, it's 24624.
It has a duration of 8 seconds.
There is also the Minor Expedition.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.
But with Charging Maneuver, the cost of Break Free is lost and Stun is deadly.

In this case, spamming Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver would probably require 6 professional staff.
The number of people in the group is 12, so half of that is needed.

That is a trade-off.

When Ballgroup spams Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver, it reduces attacks.
If the Ballgroup wants to increase its attacks and heals, it should give up spamming the Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver.

This suggestion sounds like a bad joke, but Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver are super over powered now.

But I first said a much better idea than that.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

So you just suggest a super crazy solution to make you slightly less crazy solution seem more sane?

Only organized groups will be able to use the abilities if you jack up the costs. A full pug group is not going to be able to dedicate 6 people to just spamming purge/rapids. A small group probably wont be able to have one person doing it. A ball group will adjust to this change better than anyone else.

If you change rapids's duration to 2 second then organized groups will get everyone to run race against time or whatever speed buff their class has. Either that or they will just cut it out all togeather and be 100% fine. Speed really isnt that important when facing a CC spamming zerg anyways.

If you make purge single target only without changing its cost, then the gap between classes with their own self purge and classes without grow further. Wardens, Necros, and Templars will make up the bulk of played classes.


Any nerf will affect pugs and small mans more than it will ball groups.


Also how are skill that are available to everyone in Cyrodiil unbalancing the game? Everyone has equal access to these tools.

Significantly increasing the cost of Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver makes Ballgroup much weaker.
This aidea greatly reduces the number of people who can focus on Ballgroup attacks and Heals.
However, this is an extreme story.

The only realistic ideas are:
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.
Or remove the Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition and change it to "removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 2 seconds".

[snip] You are missing the trees for the leaf.

Purge and Rapids are mechanics, that while yes are available to all, only make sense in a group setting. Removing those won't affect ball group, they will adjust and prosper as always. It will affect others who run these abilities despite their intended uses as well as those who run these for smaller groups (4 to 8 members).

What you are suggesting strengthens ball groups over all, and weakens smaller groups. That's what's realistic here, nto some narrow change that isn't fleshed out.

[Edited to removed Rude Comments]

divnyi

Efficient Purge 3500 mana: Cleanse yourself and your group, removing up to 3 negative effects total immediately.
Cleanse 5400 mana: Cleanse yourself and your group, removing up to 3 negative effects from yourself and up to 2 negative effects from other members of your group immediately.

And implement cleansing priority: sets -> dots -> major -> minor -> elemental

Vizirith

Ishtharo wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The cost of Efficient Purge for Purge morph is 5400 Magicka.
Even if it doubles, it's 10800.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.

Also, the Rapid Maneuver morph Charging Maneuver costs 6156 stamina.
Even if it quadruples, it's 24624.
It has a duration of 8 seconds.
There is also the Minor Expedition.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.
But with Charging Maneuver, the cost of Break Free is lost and Stun is deadly.

In this case, spamming Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver would probably require 6 professional staff.
The number of people in the group is 12, so half of that is needed.

That is a trade-off.

When Ballgroup spams Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver, it reduces attacks.
If the Ballgroup wants to increase its attacks and heals, it should give up spamming the Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver.

This suggestion sounds like a bad joke, but Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver are super over powered now.

But I first said a much better idea than that.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

So you just suggest a super crazy solution to make you slightly less crazy solution seem more sane?

Only organized groups will be able to use the abilities if you jack up the costs. A full pug group is not going to be able to dedicate 6 people to just spamming purge/rapids. A small group probably wont be able to have one person doing it. A ball group will adjust to this change better than anyone else.

If you change rapids's duration to 2 second then organized groups will get everyone to run race against time or whatever speed buff their class has. Either that or they will just cut it out all togeather and be 100% fine. Speed really isnt that important when facing a CC spamming zerg anyways.

If you make purge single target only without changing its cost, then the gap between classes with their own self purge and classes without grow further. Wardens, Necros, and Templars will make up the bulk of played classes.


Any nerf will affect pugs and small mans more than it will ball groups.


Also how are skill that are available to everyone in Cyrodiil unbalancing the game? Everyone has equal access to these tools.

Significantly increasing the cost of Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver makes Ballgroup much weaker.
This aidea greatly reduces the number of people who can focus on Ballgroup attacks and Heals.
However, this is an extreme story.

The only realistic ideas are:
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.
Or remove the Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition and change it to "removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 2 seconds".

[snip] You are missing the trees for the leaf.

Purge and Rapids are mechanics, that while yes are available to all, only make sense in a group setting. Removing those won't affect ball group, they will adjust and prosper as always. It will affect others who run these abilities despite their intended uses as well as those who run these for smaller groups (4 to 8 members).

What you are suggesting strengthens ball groups over all, and weakens smaller groups. That's what's realistic here, nto some narrow change that isn't fleshed out.

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group, so while yes I'm sure some 4 man group that I have yet to encounter in 7 years may be running it, it's probably less likely. OR the cost should scale and it be just as effective in a 4 man group as it is in a 12 man group.

But it's getting buffed so I guess it really was very weak for ball groups. Tbh I don't even know the last time I've seen a ball group run purge /s

Vizirith

Earthewen wrote: »

Purge is a solo player's best friend. Rapids has already been nerfed to the ground from what it was. Purge was also nerfed at one point. Neither of these two skills will change the outcome of playability in the game. We need better playability in order to make a difference in PvP at this point.

Who runs purge as a solo player? It is literally 1/12 as effective. If purge is a solo player's best friend, then man idk even want to know what the 12 man groups think of purge.

Kartalin

Vizirith wrote: »

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group,

Purge only hits 6 group members. So 100% effective in groups of 6 or less and only 50% effective in a 12 person group.

Edit: not to mention how frequently we have 5+ negative effects active.

CrustyCroco

Vizirith wrote: »

Ishtharo wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The cost of Efficient Purge for Purge morph is 5400 Magicka.
Even if it doubles, it's 10800.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.

Also, the Rapid Maneuver morph Charging Maneuver costs 6156 stamina.
Even if it quadruples, it's 24624.
It has a duration of 8 seconds.
There is also the Minor Expedition.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.
But with Charging Maneuver, the cost of Break Free is lost and Stun is deadly.

In this case, spamming Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver would probably require 6 professional staff.
The number of people in the group is 12, so half of that is needed.

That is a trade-off.

When Ballgroup spams Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver, it reduces attacks.
If the Ballgroup wants to increase its attacks and heals, it should give up spamming the Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver.

This suggestion sounds like a bad joke, but Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver are super over powered now.

But I first said a much better idea than that.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

So you just suggest a super crazy solution to make you slightly less crazy solution seem more sane?

Only organized groups will be able to use the abilities if you jack up the costs. A full pug group is not going to be able to dedicate 6 people to just spamming purge/rapids. A small group probably wont be able to have one person doing it. A ball group will adjust to this change better than anyone else.

If you change rapids's duration to 2 second then organized groups will get everyone to run race against time or whatever speed buff their class has. Either that or they will just cut it out all togeather and be 100% fine. Speed really isnt that important when facing a CC spamming zerg anyways.

If you make purge single target only without changing its cost, then the gap between classes with their own self purge and classes without grow further. Wardens, Necros, and Templars will make up the bulk of played classes.


Any nerf will affect pugs and small mans more than it will ball groups.


Also how are skill that are available to everyone in Cyrodiil unbalancing the game? Everyone has equal access to these tools.

Significantly increasing the cost of Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver makes Ballgroup much weaker.
This aidea greatly reduces the number of people who can focus on Ballgroup attacks and Heals.
However, this is an extreme story.

The only realistic ideas are:
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.
Or remove the Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition and change it to "removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 2 seconds".

[snip] You are missing the trees for the leaf.

Purge and Rapids are mechanics, that while yes are available to all, only make sense in a group setting. Removing those won't affect ball group, they will adjust and prosper as always. It will affect others who run these abilities despite their intended uses as well as those who run these for smaller groups (4 to 8 members).

What you are suggesting strengthens ball groups over all, and weakens smaller groups. That's what's realistic here, nto some narrow change that isn't fleshed out.

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group, so while yes I'm sure some 4 man group that I have yet to encounter in 7 years may be running it, it's probably less likely. OR the cost should scale and it be just as effective in a 4 man group as it is in a 12 man group.

But it's getting buffed so I guess it really was very weak for ball groups. Tbh I don't even know the last time I've seen a ball group run purge /s

Did I miss something or how is purge getting buffed?

Vizirith

Kartalin wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group,

Purge only hits 6 group members. So 100% effective in groups of 6 or less and only 50% effective in a 12 person group.

Edit: not to mention how frequently we have 5+ negative effects active.

Yes purge hits 6 players, which means it is 100% "effective" in a group of 6 and less with higher or lower groups, at least on paper. Practically no group group of 6 or less will ever run a dedicated purge bot because they can't often sacrifice 1/6 of the group for something that niche. You either go mostly stamden with sub assault and spin to win or you go a looser group where it's a bit more single target players with heals and ult dumping. Either way a purge bot is just not worth it. In a group of 12 you can because effectiveness vs loss of killing power/ raw healing is at much better ratio. You can sacrifice 1/12 players far better than a group of 4 can sacrifice 1.

CrustyCroco wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Ishtharo wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The cost of Efficient Purge for Purge morph is 5400 Magicka.
Even if it doubles, it's 10800.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.

Also, the Rapid Maneuver morph Charging Maneuver costs 6156 stamina.
Even if it quadruples, it's 24624.
It has a duration of 8 seconds.
There is also the Minor Expedition.
Moreover, it can be cost-cut with skills.
Even so, spamming Efficient Purge requires a large number of people, but it is possible.
But with Charging Maneuver, the cost of Break Free is lost and Stun is deadly.

In this case, spamming Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver would probably require 6 professional staff.
The number of people in the group is 12, so half of that is needed.

That is a trade-off.

When Ballgroup spams Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver, it reduces attacks.
If the Ballgroup wants to increase its attacks and heals, it should give up spamming the Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver.

This suggestion sounds like a bad joke, but Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver are super over powered now.

But I first said a much better idea than that.

master_vanargand wrote: »

Purge and Rapid Maneuver are destroying the game balance in PvP.
The ballgroup spams Purge and Rapid Maneuver.
This is god mode.
So Purge and Rapid Maneuver need to be nerfed.

[My request]
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.

So you just suggest a super crazy solution to make you slightly less crazy solution seem more sane?

Only organized groups will be able to use the abilities if you jack up the costs. A full pug group is not going to be able to dedicate 6 people to just spamming purge/rapids. A small group probably wont be able to have one person doing it. A ball group will adjust to this change better than anyone else.

If you change rapids's duration to 2 second then organized groups will get everyone to run race against time or whatever speed buff their class has. Either that or they will just cut it out all togeather and be 100% fine. Speed really isnt that important when facing a CC spamming zerg anyways.

If you make purge single target only without changing its cost, then the gap between classes with their own self purge and classes without grow further. Wardens, Necros, and Templars will make up the bulk of played classes.


Any nerf will affect pugs and small mans more than it will ball groups.


Also how are skill that are available to everyone in Cyrodiil unbalancing the game? Everyone has equal access to these tools.

Significantly increasing the cost of Efficient Purge and Charging Maneuver makes Ballgroup much weaker.
This aidea greatly reduces the number of people who can focus on Ballgroup attacks and Heals.
However, this is an extreme story.

The only realistic ideas are:
Change Purge's target to self only.
Change Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition duration to 2 seconds.
Or remove the Rapid Maneuver's Major Expedition and change it to "removes all snares and immobilizations from you and grants immunity to them for 2 seconds".

[snip] You are missing the trees for the leaf.

Purge and Rapids are mechanics, that while yes are available to all, only make sense in a group setting. Removing those won't affect ball group, they will adjust and prosper as always. It will affect others who run these abilities despite their intended uses as well as those who run these for smaller groups (4 to 8 members).

What you are suggesting strengthens ball groups over all, and weakens smaller groups. That's what's realistic here, nto some narrow change that isn't fleshed out.

And purge in a 4 man group is 1/3 as effective as it is in a 12 man group, so while yes I'm sure some 4 man group that I have yet to encounter in 7 years may be running it, it's probably less likely. OR the cost should scale and it be just as effective in a 4 man group as it is in a 12 man group.

But it's getting buffed so I guess it really was very weak for ball groups. Tbh I don't even know the last time I've seen a ball group run purge /s

Did I miss something or how is purge getting buffed?

I didn't check the actual pts until last night and was unaware that Salve of renewal cp had a cd not mentioned in the patch notes. So I was thinking 3k heals for group every time anybody purges anything would be a bit excessive.

neferpitou73

Vizirith wrote: »

I didn't check the actual pts until last night and was unaware that Salve of renewal cp had a cd not mentioned in the patch notes. So I was thinking 3k heals for group every time anybody purges anything would be a bit excessive.

The cleanse morph of purge already does that per negative effect.

blktauna

Thanos7895 wrote: »

I would agree if a global CC immunity was added after breaking free from a CC for a short period of time. CCs is this game are overpowered as well.

I just wish break free would work at all in cyro.

DTStormfox

They are supposed to be group abilities. Making them target only self and one other group member would defeat the purpose of these abilities. So, changing the group mechanics of these abilities is not desirable.

The problem of Rapids is not necessarily the uptime either. Even when it has only 2 seconds of Major Expedition, a group can rotate this ability to have 100% uptime (albeit very resource inefficient). I do think that the damage received reduction of 15% when attacked from behind [Retreating Maneuver morph] is too powerful. Maybe ZOS can reduce that to 10% in line with Major Protection OR to 5% in line with Minor Protection.

The problem of Purge is, in my opinion, that it removes all negative effects including nearly all types of damage over time, excluding ground-based damage over time. Meaning that groups that spam or rotate Purge are practically immune to most of the damage over time applied to them. For example, Lacerate (Dual wield ultimate) is completely useless against these groups unless they are all inside a negate. I don't know exactly how ZOS can solve this or if it really needs to be solved. But, personally, I think that some types or categories of negative effects should not be cleansable using Purge (the ability).