Two Pressing PVP Issues: Speed Stacking And Healing

gariondavey

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

Sounds like they need to fix targeting...

Yup, no need to ruin speed and healing

Ishtharo

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

I would disagree. As a max move speed user myself, I get through walls, doors, around corners, etc constantly. The multiple LOS checks you speak of don't work the way you think they do. Too frequently I get hit with both ranged and melee abilities through LOS. The issue you are having is client desync to the server. It's the same issue that arrises when you have a second delay on your abilities going off. It's why you think you can't hit fast characters, because where you see them is not where they are.

This is a server issue, not a speed issue.
Source: Myself and multiple others testing.

TipsyDrow

If it's client desync or a server problem and those things are never going to be fixed then it IS a speed problem isn't it? Because the game can't handle the speed. Speed cap needs lowered while in combat, period. Out of combat picking flowers no one really cares how fast you move.

JerBearESO

TipsyDrow wrote: »

If it's client desync or a server problem and those things are never going to be fixed then it IS a speed problem isn't it? Because the game can't handle the speed. Speed cap needs lowered while in combat, period. Out of combat picking flowers no one really cares how fast you move.

i agree speed is problem in pvp, but shouldnt be handled based upon in/out of combat, as that can get wonky....

we need it in battlespirit is all:

-20% speed cap.
-50% bonus movespeed effectiveness.

this is coming from someone who mains a wind mage 200% movespeed when sprinting build, as of late, so i not being biased. if anything, i USE the broken max speed and am speaking against it, so that says a lot.

also, the abilities that remove/prevent snare altogether are too strong to not use in almost all pvp cases, which is bad, but snares are also too strong to not have counterplay to. i would cut snares in half and then have the anti snare abilities cut snares in half again, rather than immunity. this is still a counterplay system, but not one that forces you take an ability so that snares no longer exist.... sorry if somewhat off topic, but it is related to movespeed

XvarleyX

Sarousse wrote: »

Throw real CC in game (I mean unbreakable) like in any other PvP game and the problem is fixed. It's lacking since the very begining of the game.

YandereGirlfriend

JerBearESO wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

If it's client desync or a server problem and those things are never going to be fixed then it IS a speed problem isn't it? Because the game can't handle the speed. Speed cap needs lowered while in combat, period. Out of combat picking flowers no one really cares how fast you move.

i agree speed is problem in pvp, but shouldnt be handled based upon in/out of combat, as that can get wonky....

we need it in battlespirit is all:

-20% speed cap.
-50% bonus movespeed effectiveness.

this is coming from someone who mains a wind mage 200% movespeed when sprinting build, as of late, so i not being biased. if anything, i USE the broken max speed and am speaking against it, so that says a lot.

also, the abilities that remove/prevent snare altogether are too strong to not use in almost all pvp cases, which is bad, but snares are also too strong to not have counterplay to. i would cut snares in half and then have the anti snare abilities cut snares in half again, rather than immunity. this is still a counterplay system, but not one that forces you take an ability so that snares no longer exist.... sorry if somewhat off topic, but it is related to movespeed

This would be an awful change that would ruin any sense of fluid movement in PvP.

Ask ZOS to fix their shoddy server-side code as that is the actual heart of the issue, if even there is an issue.

Movement speed shouldn't be globally nerfed because a small handful of sweaty players can't secure a kill they feel they're entitled to.

katorga

Umm. The game engine can't handle base speeds.

Speed buffs just let you exacerbate it.

JerBearESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

If it's client desync or a server problem and those things are never going to be fixed then it IS a speed problem isn't it? Because the game can't handle the speed. Speed cap needs lowered while in combat, period. Out of combat picking flowers no one really cares how fast you move.

i agree speed is problem in pvp, but shouldnt be handled based upon in/out of combat, as that can get wonky....

we need it in battlespirit is all:

-20% speed cap.
-50% bonus movespeed effectiveness.

this is coming from someone who mains a wind mage 200% movespeed when sprinting build, as of late, so i not being biased. if anything, i USE the broken max speed and am speaking against it, so that says a lot.

also, the abilities that remove/prevent snare altogether are too strong to not use in almost all pvp cases, which is bad, but snares are also too strong to not have counterplay to. i would cut snares in half and then have the anti snare abilities cut snares in half again, rather than immunity. this is still a counterplay system, but not one that forces you take an ability so that snares no longer exist.... sorry if somewhat off topic, but it is related to movespeed

This would be an awful change that would ruin any sense of fluid movement in PvP.

Ask ZOS to fix their shoddy server-side code as that is the actual heart of the issue, if even there is an issue.

Movement speed shouldn't be globally nerfed because a small handful of sweaty players can't secure a kill they feel they're entitled to.

is movement only fluid if its extra fast? it wouldnt ruin movement to ease up on extra speed standards a bit, i assure you.

the fact of the matter is, whoever is substantially faster controls the flow of combat entirely. they decide when they will fight and when they will not, they decide when YOU will fight and when YOU will not. or vice versa if you are the one zooming around xD therefor, speed in pvp is actually worth a lot more than most players have realized in a very unique way, it defies structure. so to close that gap between non speed and speed builds a tad is a good thing, not a bad thing.

plus it IS frustrating to stutter through animations starting up and canceling out as you attempt to attack the enemy moving around the corner repeatedly hahaha

Sluggy

Yeah no thanks on the speed reduction. They've already hit it pretty hard several times. In the end it won't affect anything anyway. It's not that the game engine can't handle it. It's just a natural limit of information speeds. I ran max speed-builds all the time back when there was no cap and *still* couldn't break line of sight and *still* couldn't connect attacks with people that appeared to be standing next to me all the time. It's just the effect you get when lag is introduced, especially when your opponent has a much better connection to the server than you do. Online games aren't really a shared virtual world here. We each have our own version of it that occasionally shares some data with others.

As for the unbreakable CC, well that would just be the end of PvP. First person to stun wins (at least against any player that isn't on a pure defensive HoT n Block build)

YandereGirlfriend

JerBearESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

If it's client desync or a server problem and those things are never going to be fixed then it IS a speed problem isn't it? Because the game can't handle the speed. Speed cap needs lowered while in combat, period. Out of combat picking flowers no one really cares how fast you move.

i agree speed is problem in pvp, but shouldnt be handled based upon in/out of combat, as that can get wonky....

we need it in battlespirit is all:

-20% speed cap.
-50% bonus movespeed effectiveness.

this is coming from someone who mains a wind mage 200% movespeed when sprinting build, as of late, so i not being biased. if anything, i USE the broken max speed and am speaking against it, so that says a lot.

also, the abilities that remove/prevent snare altogether are too strong to not use in almost all pvp cases, which is bad, but snares are also too strong to not have counterplay to. i would cut snares in half and then have the anti snare abilities cut snares in half again, rather than immunity. this is still a counterplay system, but not one that forces you take an ability so that snares no longer exist.... sorry if somewhat off topic, but it is related to movespeed

This would be an awful change that would ruin any sense of fluid movement in PvP.

Ask ZOS to fix their shoddy server-side code as that is the actual heart of the issue, if even there is an issue.

Movement speed shouldn't be globally nerfed because a small handful of sweaty players can't secure a kill they feel they're entitled to.

is movement only fluid if its extra fast? it wouldnt ruin movement to ease up on extra speed standards a bit, i assure you.

the fact of the matter is, whoever is substantially faster controls the flow of combat entirely. they decide when they will fight and when they will not, they decide when YOU will fight and when YOU will not. or vice versa if you are the one zooming around xD therefor, speed in pvp is actually worth a lot more than most players have realized in a very unique way, it defies structure. so to close that gap between non speed and speed builds a tad is a good thing, not a bad thing.

plus it IS frustrating to stutter through animations starting up and canceling out as you attempt to attack the enemy moving around the corner repeatedly hahaha

Yes, it would feel awful.

Default movement speeds are incredibly sluggish, especially if you're not a Stamina character with their Sprint speed bonuses. As a Magicka player, your movement is positively glacial without Major Expedition at a minimum. And now you're trying to turn Major Expedition into Minor Expedition, a buff that is almost imperceptible if it is your only movement buff.

That's where your proposed changes would leave most Magicka classes, as they don't have easy access to Minor Expedition and traiting into Swift wouldn't at all be worth the opportunity cost to your build. To wit, you could run 3x Swift with your changes and use Major Expedition and you would still be slower than the current Major Expedition.

While I still disapprove, something like reducing the movement cap to 1.8x in PvP is a less destructive change. It would still allow Magicka builds to perform as before (since it's much harder to reach the current cap as Magicka) but it would put a slight lid on Stamina builds without ruining many abilities or traits.

JerBearESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Yes, it would feel awful.

Default movement speeds are incredibly sluggish, especially if you're not a Stamina character with their Sprint speed bonuses. As a Magicka player, your movement is positively glacial without Major Expedition at a minimum. And now you're trying to turn Major Expedition into Minor Expedition, a buff that is almost imperceptible if it is your only movement buff.

That's where your proposed changes would leave most Magicka classes, as they don't have easy access to Minor Expedition and traiting into Swift wouldn't at all be worth the opportunity cost to your build. To wit, you could run 3x Swift with your changes and use Major Expedition and you would still be slower than the current Major Expedition.

While I still disapprove, something like reducing the movement cap to 1.8x in PvP is a less destructive change. It would still allow Magicka builds to perform as before (since it's much harder to reach the current cap as Magicka) but it would put a slight lid on Stamina builds without ruining many abilities or traits.

ok ok, i have been playing way too much stam lately and didnt think of the mag side of things.... you are right here, only cutting max speed in battlespirit is more appropriate. no need to reduce extra speed effectiveness without giving mag more access in the first place

Waffennacht

Just curious as to why you arent as fast as them if you have such an issue landing anything?

p00tx

Sarousse wrote: »

Throw real CC in game (I mean unbreakable) like in any other PvP game and the problem is fixed. It's lacking since the very begining of the game.

If you're on console they're all unbreakable.

lronclaw

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In PVP there are two primary issues which ruin the flow of pvp combat.

1. The game engine can't handle speed stacking characters who run from line of sight to line of sight. When you try to fire an ability at them, it doesn't go off due to both positional desyncs and because ability animations seem to have multiple LOS checks and so don't fire even when the speedy character is exposed outside of LOS. This has created hit and run style gameplay where people try to one shot you, and then sprint at 200% speed around corners and you cannot target them.

YES! It is so DISGUSTING when this happens. I use my skills 10 times and only one hit becauae of some idiotic reason. I am so tired of people running around like an ant and even when i am able to aim st them rhe game sinply keeps starting the skill animations and cancelling my skills without doing anything. This is single handedly the most disgusting thing about this game for me.

OBJnoob

Some decent ideas here. My favorite is the little tidbit about increasing melee range. I'm not one who complains about lag a lot-- I prefer to play where there isn't any. But still even when the game is otherwise very playable and fun I find that some "point blank" abilities are very difficult to use.

Example: I have one character that uses Gripping Shards to immobilize. Another that tries to kill with spin to win. In both cases if a single target is just straight up running away from me I can't hit them with either. Even when my character model is RIGHT ON TOP of theirs it still misses sometimes, to the point where I literally have to sprint AHEAD of them before casting. Kinda silly.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have closed this topic as it was originally created in April 2021. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.

Thank you for your understanding.