Two Pressing PVP Issues: Speed Stacking And Healing

sabresandiego_ESO

In PVP there are two primary issues which ruin the flow of pvp combat.

1. The game engine can't handle speed stacking characters who run from line of sight to line of sight. When you try to fire an ability at them, it doesn't go off due to both positional desyncs and because ability animations seem to have multiple LOS checks and so don't fire even when the speedy character is exposed outside of LOS. This has created hit and run style gameplay where people try to one shot you, and then sprint at 200% speed around corners and you cannot target them.

Suggested fix: Lower the sprint cap from 200 to something lower, and lower the speed boost of various buffs like the expeditions and race against time. In addition, remove the multiple line of sight checks from abilities so that if an enemy is exposed when you initially cast an ability, the ability will actually fire instead of stutter at the end of its animation. Boost all melee abilities to 7m range to help with positional desyncs.

2. PVP plays reasonably well outside of speed stacking one shot builds when healers aren't present. When healers are present the game slows down to a snails pace and its extremely difficult to get any kills. Deathmatch games when 3 good teams are present often end where the winning team has less than 3 kills secured. And if only 2 teams are good they don't fight each other and just farm the third team.

Suggested fix: Make it so battle spirit additionally reduces healing done to others by x% and overhealing causes the overhealed player to do x% more damage for x seconds. The goal here is to retain the effectiveness of healers but convert that effectiveness into both offense and defense instead of just defense. Battles with healers involved should be just as fast paced and enjoyable as battles when no healers are present; not boring snooze fests where nobody dies.

ApoAlaia

As long as the speed stacking reduction is only effective in PvP areas fine.

If it affects PvE I'm going to go with 'no thanks'; it would be significantly detrimental to my 'farming'/everyday character.

ajkb78

Just make any reductions apply when in combat. No need for them to affect pve node farmers or just running around dungeons - the recent improvements to movement speed at least slightly offset the damage nerfs in terms of being able to complete speed runs.

And I think the second part of your point is really the more salient, there should only be 1 LOS check and if there is a LOS when a skill is used, it will connect. And perhaps standardising melee ranges at 7m, I'll take your word for it, it's the LOS dodging I've noticed more than issues with melee positioning. But bear in mind if their melee range and yours are both 7m a skilled player will still be able to weave back and forth to get in range for their attacks and out of range (hopefully) of your riposte.

TequilaFire

Players are moving way too fast in PvE as well, the sprint and mount animations can't keep up.
If you could only see your self go by. lol

Galarthor

Always a pleasure fighting somebody that you can't hit b/c ZOS allows the to run faster than their game can comprehend.
Either reduce speed cap or increase hit box of very fast targets so that the desync is not causing them to be untouchable.

AlnilamE

I mean, I already can't heal for crap on PvP, but sure, nerf healing even more so I can die even more quickly.

sabresandiego_ESO

AlnilamE wrote: »

I mean, I already can't heal for crap on PvP, but sure, nerf healing even more so I can die even more quickly.

I did not suggest a nerf to self healing. Self healing would stay the same. Healing others would be reduced by x% but offensive power would be increased by x% on targets that are overhealed. The idea is to keep healers who heal others equally as effective as they are now, but translate that effectiveness into both offense and defense.

Grega

Please leave speed cap alone. PvP wise whatever I don’t care if you need to nerf speed sprint to 0% just put it in battle spirit.

But please don’t suggest game wise speed nerfs. There’s so very little left untouched in this game

Zatox

only two pvp issues: streak and cloak

relentless_turnip

A highly subjective topic IMO. Perma blocking, heal spammers are equally annoying to fight and are probably equally taxing on the servers.

Zatox wrote: »

only two pvp issues: streak and cloak

Both are fine, both have counters.

sabresandiego_ESO

Grega wrote: »

Please leave speed cap alone. PvP wise whatever I don’t care if you need to nerf speed sprint to 0% just put it in battle spirit.

But please don’t suggest game wise speed nerfs. There’s so very little left untouched in this game

I’m fine with all fixes being under battle spirit so that pve and farming is unaffected

sabresandiego_ESO

TequilaFire wrote: »

Players are moving way too fast in PvE as well, the sprint and mount animations can't keep up.
If you could only see your self go by. lol

Perhaps in combat and out of combat speed should be a bigger spread

StaticWave

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In PVP there are two primary issues which ruin the flow of pvp combat.

1. The game engine can't handle speed stacking characters who run from line of sight to line of sight. When you try to fire an ability at them, it doesn't go off due to both positional desyncs and because ability animations seem to have multiple LOS checks and so don't fire even when the speedy character is exposed outside of LOS. This has created hit and run style gameplay where people try to one shot you, and then sprint at 200% speed around corners and you cannot target them.

Suggested fix: Lower the sprint cap from 200 to something lower, and lower the speed boost of various buffs like the expeditions and race against time. In addition, remove the multiple line of sight checks from abilities so that if an enemy is exposed when you initially cast an ability, the ability will actually fire instead of stutter at the end of its animation. Boost all melee abilities to 7m range to help with positional desyncs.

2. PVP plays reasonably well outside of speed stacking one shot builds when healers aren't present. When healers are present the game slows down to a snails pace and its extremely difficult to get any kills. Deathmatch games when 3 good teams are present often end where the winning team has less than 3 kills secured. And if only 2 teams are good they don't fight each other and just farm the third team.

Suggested fix: Make it so battle spirit additionally reduces healing done to others by x% and overhealing causes the overhealed player to do x% more damage for x seconds. The goal here is to retain the effectiveness of healers but convert that effectiveness into both offense and defense instead of just defense. Battles with healers involved should be just as fast paced and enjoyable as battles when no healers are present; not boring snooze fests where nobody dies.

Your suggestion will only benefit large groups, as it not only makes them do more damage due to the amount of overhealing, but also makes it easier to chase down others because of the reduced movement speed.

Armethius

how do you know if you are at speed cap?

I run a light armor build and so i rely on speed for safety, i can't take that much damage sustained over periods of time and often need to run when my resources get low. My speed bonuses come from:

- two jewelry traits
- mundes stone (speed + health regen, and i may change this after health regen is nerfed)
- Warden ability with Wings (Major expedition i believe)
- all the speed CP boosts

tsaescishoeshiner

I don't think speed stacking is an issue, though I know ball groups and 1vxers use it. Swift jewelry has already been nerfed, Steed Stone is less viable with the Health Recovery debuff, and speed is already capped at 200% base speed.

I play a super fun 196% speed stamsorc, and building into speed definitely comes at a cost. Most stam builds are at 160% just from sprinting with Medium Armor, so I think it's very well-balanced.

They did remove snares from a lot of skills over a year ago—maybe a dedicated non-ground AoE snare in the PvP skill lines would be good.

Armethius

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I don't think speed stacking is an issue, though I know ball groups and 1vxers use it. Swift jewelry has already been nerfed, Steed Stone is less viable with the Health Recovery debuff, and speed is already capped at 200% base speed.

I play a super fun 196% speed stamsorc, and building into speed definitely comes at a cost. Most stam builds are at 160% just from sprinting with Medium Armor, so I think it's very well-balanced.

They did remove snares from a lot of skills over a year ago—maybe a dedicated non-ground AoE snare in the PvP skill lines would be good.

psijic warden slow time is nice for that

Grimlok_S

Speed is fun.

Don't nerf fun!

relentless_turnip

Yeah I don't think fast characters are any worse than perma block characters. Active defence is totally fine. Healing is only too strong on certain classes IMO.

TequilaFire

So the reason they nerfed swift and rapids a while back was the targeting couldn't keep up.
Guess they fixed that now they are going even crazier with the speed. /skeptical

Casul

Gotta go fast

sabresandiego_ESO

If they don’t nerf speed, which I’m ok with, they need to fix targeting so that you can actually fire abilities on fast moving players.

Currently the targeting system doesn’t work and the abilities stutter on fast moving targets, likely due to un necessary multiple line of sight checks. If the ability passes the first line of sight check (when you push the button and the target is exposed) then the ability should go off. Right now the ability fails to cast

TheUndeadAmulet

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

If they don’t nerf speed, which I’m ok with, they need to fix targeting so that you can actually fire abilities on fast moving players.

Currently the targeting system doesn’t work and the abilities stutter on fast moving targets, likely due to un necessary multiple line of sight checks. If the ability passes the first line of sight check (when you push the button and the target is exposed) then the ability should go off. Right now the ability fails to cast

This issue is even more prevalent when you are playing with lag.

YandereGirlfriend

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Amottica

I have been playing ESO for less than three months so I am new. However, I had understood there was a cap on speed which would mean there is not an issue since it is controlled.

I also do not understand this one-shot build issue. Are there builds that can one-shot a player with a decent build and an appropriate ammount of health? I am glad I have not experienced that, yet. While I learned we have a lot of choices with our builds in this game and that with those choices it is easy to put together bad builds that are more glass than cannon. So I wonder if that is the real issue.

sabresandiego_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

Amottica

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

again, I am a noob to ESO so please bear with me.

This is not the first game I have played where players have used the environment to their advantage. It is very effective to avoid damage while still being able to some damage, or healing.

What I am asking is to provide a video because I would like to understand what you are speaking of. It may also be helpful to present to the others here what the issue is so this conversation is more than the back and forth it is now. I am pretty sure we can record our gameplay on all three platforms.

Wing

i was honestly surprised they buffed minor expedition considering they had nerf'd swift jewelry.

hoenstly all those sources need to be toned back and re balanced.

an Orc sorc with full medium is nearly at speed cap sprinting with no investment other then what they passively have, add in steed mundus and done, no effort needed.

that seems a wee bit broken, especially when the game itself supposedly cannot handle those speeds.

YandereGirlfriend

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

Sounds to me like a problem with shoddy game code not with movement speed itself.

Try asking ZOS to fix the actual problem rather than calling for nerfs on the entire player base.

sabresandiego_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

Sounds to me like a problem with shoddy game code not with movement speed itself.

Try asking ZOS to fix the actual problem rather than calling for nerfs on the entire player base.

Like I said before, if they fix targeting issues so that abilities actually work even if a speedy player is only exposed for a fraction of a second then I would be ok with the speed.

As it is now, a speedy player running around corners or from pillar to pillar will bug out most of the attacks from enemy players due to a poor targeting system and too many line of sight checks on every ability.

relentless_turnip

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Speed is absolutely NOT a problem.

It's threads like these that got us all of the janky movement nerfs a few years ago and that the game has never really recovered from.

Investing into movement speed is an opportunity cost and players enjoy the feeling of fluid movement.

Yes it is a problem due to the targeting system. A max move speed character that is running around corners or pillars is nearly impossible to attack. You literally can’t fire any abilities at them and your character keeps stuttering, even though on your screen they are exposed and your abilities should fire.

Good players abuse this by simply sprinting away around corners at max speed whenever a fight doesn’t favor them.

There seems to be multiple line of sight checks on ability animations instead of just one, so abilities simply don’t fire on character who are only briefly exposed from cover. It’s extremely wonky, unfun, and abusable

Sounds like they need to fix targeting...

Sarousse

Throw real CC in game (I mean unbreakable) like in any other PvP game and the problem is fixed. It's lacking since the very begining of the game.