Regarding Proc sets now scaling off Max Stats

Stevie6

There is an easy solution to the whole problem. The Devs, if they choose to do it, is finally separate PVP from PVE. That means all items and item set will be nerfed to the ground in PVP while being super buffed in PVE.

Brrrofski

Stevie6 wrote: »

There is an easy solution to the whole problem. The Devs, if they choose to do it, is finally separate PVP from PVE. That means all items and item set will be nerfed to the ground in PVP while being super buffed in PVE.

Well that's what's kinda happening now anyway.

Damage focussed builds will see proc sets become more effective, all rounder builds will see them become less effective.

I mean I run a saptank with leeching, bahrahs and vat ice staff. So my build will no doubt take a hit.

But there's not many builds out there in pve like that.

Plus we haven't seen the numbers yet, so people need to chill. For all we know, it might not be a big change. ZOS often have the right idea but don't succeed in pulling it off.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sangwyne wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

PTS hasn't even started yet. We don't even know how well proc sets scale, [snip]

It doesn't matter how well they scale, healing from procs shouldn't scale from offensive stats at all. Stacking damage and getting free durability is no different than stacking durability and getting free damage; now anyone can just stack one stat and get everything else for no investment. Stamina gives damage, mobility, sustain, mitigation (from blocking or rolling) and now healing from procs too; Stamina was already the meta, why does it need to be the One Stat to Rule Them All?

Hu? As if healing from skills doesnt scale from offensive stats now too. So what?

Sangwyne

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hu? As if healing from skills doesnt scale from offensive stats now too. So what?

Vigor was a mistake. Magicka should have had the better heals, since Stamina builds have more armor, more roll dodges, more sprinting, more break frees, more blocking, cheaper skills, and more damage against Light armor, with zero penalties from Medium armor. It's part of the reason Stamina is so dominant; whatever Magicka builds can do, Stamina can do better. Except Streak. And now Stamina builds will be able to scale their healing from procs too with the same stat they use for everything else.

Jaraal

I find it most amusing that people complained about players who built specifically for proc damage, and what they got for their efforts was that these same people will now be doing even more damage to them. The only thing I can think of is that ZOS wants to make sure that the new "no proc" campaigns aren't embarrassingly utter ghost towns. What else could it possibly be?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I think a venomous from stealth on someone with all damage build will be horrendous, but they will have to be an absolute glass cannon for it to be effective and can't be worse than they are able to achieve with stats.

How do you figure, if the VS proc damage scales off weapon damage and not stamina? There are plenty of heavy armor sets with WD, heavy monster sets with WD, CP WD, Warrior stone WD, three infused weapon damage jewelry slots available, weapon damage glyphs..... and the character can run 64 health with no reduction in proc damage. Doesn't sound very glass cannon-ish to me.

relentless_turnip

Jaraal wrote: »

I find it most amusing that people complained about players who built specifically for proc damage, and what they got for their efforts was that these same people will now be doing even more damage to them. The only thing I can think of is that ZOS wants to make sure that the new "no proc" campaigns aren't embarrassingly utter ghost towns. What else could it possibly be?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I think a venomous from stealth on someone with all damage build will be horrendous, but they will have to be an absolute glass cannon for it to be effective and can't be worse than they are able to achieve with stats.

How do you figure, if the VS proc damage scales off weapon damage and not stamina? There are plenty of heavy armor sets with WD, heavy monster sets with WD, CP WD, Warrior stone WD, three infused weapon damage jewelry slots available, weapon damage glyphs..... and the character can run 64 health with no reduction in proc damage. Doesn't sound very glass cannon-ish to me.

I don't understand your point... I was replying to someone else and they pointed out a scenario, I was simply pondering on it. My point was that only the first hit of its damage would be high, because you would crit and apply venomous whilst applying 16% extra damage from malacath. We have no idea of the scaling yet, but by the sounds of it you need a lot of investment to get it to the same tooltip it currently has I can't see this build being bis IMO with the limited information we have.

itscompton

Jaraal wrote: »

I find it most amusing that people complained about players who built specifically for proc damage, and what they got for their efforts was that these same people will now be doing even more damage to them. The only thing I can think of is that ZOS wants to make sure that the new "no proc" campaigns aren't embarrassingly utter ghost towns. What else could it possibly be?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I think a venomous from stealth on someone with all damage build will be horrendous, but they will have to be an absolute glass cannon for it to be effective and can't be worse than they are able to achieve with stats.

How do you figure, if the VS proc damage scales off weapon damage and not stamina? There are plenty of heavy armor sets with WD, heavy monster sets with WD, CP WD, Warrior stone WD, three infused weapon damage jewelry slots available, weapon damage glyphs..... and the character can run 64 health with no reduction in proc damage. Doesn't sound very glass cannon-ish to me.

You have completely missed the point. "Building for Proc Damage" required zero investment in offensive stats so you could push 40K resistances (which requires a lot more sacrifices than just wearing all heavy armor) and health with good recovery numbers as well. Winning a fight with a build like that required a bit of blocking and maybe casting a healing ability that scales off max health every few seconds then proccing Zaan and the Vash staff once the opponent ran low on resources.
If someone is doing more damage with Zaan and the Vash staff after the update they are certainly not going to be able to do so while dumping everything into health/resistances/recovery.

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Hu? As if healing from skills doesnt scale from offensive stats now too. So what?

Vigor was a mistake. Magicka should have had the better heals, since Stamina builds have more armor, more roll dodges, more sprinting, more break frees, more blocking, cheaper skills, and more damage against Light armor, with zero penalties from Medium armor. It's part of the reason Stamina is so dominant; whatever Magicka builds can do, Stamina can do better. Except Streak. And now Stamina builds will be able to scale their healing from procs too with the same stat they use for everything else.

Stamina builds don't stack their stamina pools. Damage scales poorly with stamina. This isn't true for magicka. So if they specifically wanted to build for a healing proc set they are further sacrificing damage. Where as a magicka build would gain damage and healing with this investment. I am not claiming this creates balance, but we have no idea if it causes imbalance yet either.

merevie

At this point, the most simple thing for Zos to do is burn Crimson. It's one set. Not going to be missed.

SeaGtGruff

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vigor was a mistake.

If it weren't for Resolving Vigor, my PC EU main wouldn't be able to clear some of the PvE content he can now.

Amottica

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted.

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

I agree with you. In the short time, I have been in this game I have come across players that somehow did good damage but were hard to kill and I was with an experienced small group. It makes no sense to have gear that does the same ammount of damage for a damage spec as it does a spec built heavily for survival while. There should be a forced choice between building towards damage or survival or a balance between the two.

oscarovegren

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted. Fun fun let me tell you.

oscarovegren

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted. Fun fun let me tell you.

Let tanks be tanks for sure but equip several procsset and do a lot of damage while being at 50k health and resistcap with good sustain is not balanced

marius_buys

https://desastreshow.com/sets-objets-mythiques-blackwood-teso/

Artorias24

No more 50k HP procden with crimson, vate and brp destro + zaan.

I like it. Proc sets will be a nice addition to stat builds cause you now need offensive stats to make them strong.

Anyone disliking this just expose themself as getting carried by full procs

olsborg

Yea, initially im all for "nerfing" proccsets, but it looks like in some cases its a buff to proccsets (specially since malacath will still boost them) so this could backfire tremendously bad. Then again, I didnt play during proccmeta and if proccmeta continues I just wont play then either, simple fix.

Brrrofski

olsborg wrote: »

Yea, initially im all for "nerfing" proccsets, but it looks like in some cases its a buff to proccsets (specially since malacath will still boost them) so this could backfire tremendously bad. Then again, I didnt play during proccmeta and if proccmeta continues I just wont play then either, simple fix.

Yeh, they might hit harder, but hopefully they need so much investment into damage that in PvP it means you're squishy or have crap sustain.

The old way you could do everything. Good damage, survive and sustain.

Fingers crossed this new way moves away from that.

Runefang

I can already see it when the PTS drops, proc sets as meta in PvE. What outrage there will be.

They wanted to raise the dps floor. Nobody thought they’d do it this way.

Firstmep

Runefang wrote: »

I can already see it when the PTS drops, proc sets as meta in PvE. What outrage there will be.

They wanted to raise the dps floor. Nobody thought they’d do it this way.

People already run procsets in endgame pve, so don't see where this outrage would come from.
Rele, selene, zaan, illambris just to name some of the more popular ones.

On the other hand I really hope they make crimson health scaling really poor values, I don't mind that set so much, but it's usually one of the first sets the anti proc crowd goes to for their arguments.

olsborg

Firstmep wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I can already see it when the PTS drops, proc sets as meta in PvE. What outrage there will be.

They wanted to raise the dps floor. Nobody thought they’d do it this way.

People already run procsets in endgame pve, so don't see where this outrage would come from.
Rele, selene, zaan, illambris just to name some of the more popular ones.

On the other hand I really hope they make crimson health scaling really poor values, I don't mind that set so much, but it's usually one of the first sets the anti proc crowd goes to for their arguments.

Well crimson was/is the biggest carry set in pvp for 2020/21

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

[snip] Procs making damage dealers tanky is no different than giving tanks free damage. It's still just stacking one stat and getting everything else for free. Y'all thought unkillable tanks were bad, now we have unkillable damage dealers with healing, mobility, damage and mitigation all scaling off their offensive stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamina builds don't stack their stamina pools. Damage scales poorly with stamina. This isn't true for magicka. So if they specifically wanted to build for a healing proc set they are further sacrificing damage. Where as a magicka build would gain damage and healing with this investment. I am not claiming this creates balance, but we have no idea if it causes imbalance yet either.

...Stamina builds don't stack Stamina? So what exactly do they spend their attribute points and armor glyphs on then, Magicka? You might want to read the Combat Preview again; healing from procs will scale with Stamina OR Magicka, whichever is higher. And why would damage scale more poorly with Stamina than with Magicka? Both scale damage from skills at a rate of 1050 Stamina or Magicka to 100 W/S Damage.

This just reads like more excuses being made on Stamina's behalf, it's frustrating to see Stamina players trying to justify this nonsense. Stamina is already the meta, with more armor, sprinting, rolling, blocking, breaking free, more damage against Magicka builds, when they already have less armor, a better heal from Vigor when Magicka is supposed to be the go-to for healing, and zero penalties when the other two armors have several. Magicka builds can't afford to stack only Magicka, Heavy armor users can't get away with just stacking Health anymore, both need to take some stamina for mobility, mitigation and breaking free, but where is the tradeoff being made for Stamina builds? Can't wait for someone to tell me all about the extremely nuanced and difficult decision making that goes into stacking one stat for literally everything.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyone disliking this just expose themself as getting carried by full procs

Right, because I don't want to see the exact same meta we just had, but with even more damage, I must love procs. The only ones excited about this change are those looking forward to abusing stat-stacking with procs.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

renne

Sangwyne wrote: »

Right, except that DDs don't actually sacrifice squat now. Heals/Shields/Vigor scale off of offensive stats, sprinting, rolling, blocking scale off of offensive stats, both Crimson's damage and healing scales off of offensive stats, all healing proc sets now scale off of offensive stats, and damage proc sets now scale off of offensive stats. Damage scales mobility, mitigation from blocking/rolling, healing, shielding, and probably damage too, not sure about that last one, I'd have to check. This is on top of Medium armor granting block cost reduction, AOE damage reduction after rolling, and having an innate 20% AOE damage reduction skill, with zero downsides. What exactly is the tradeoff here?

Someone clearly doesn't play light armour mag.

HowlKimchi

Amazing change for BGs and IC.

Brrrofski

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

[snip] Procs making damage dealers tanky is no different than giving tanks free damage. It's still just stacking one stat and getting everything else for free. Y'all thought unkillable tanks were bad, now we have unkillable damage dealers with healing, mobility, damage and mitigation all scaling off their offensive stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamina builds don't stack their stamina pools. Damage scales poorly with stamina. This isn't true for magicka. So if they specifically wanted to build for a healing proc set they are further sacrificing damage. Where as a magicka build would gain damage and healing with this investment. I am not claiming this creates balance, but we have no idea if it causes imbalance yet either.

...Stamina builds don't stack Stamina? So what exactly do they spend their attribute points and armor glyphs on then, Magicka? You might want to read the Combat Preview again, healing from procs will scale with Stamina OR Magicka, whichever is higher. And why would damage scale more poorly with Stamina than with Magicka? Both scale damage from skills at a rate of 1050 Stamina or Magicka to 100 W/S Damage. This just sounds like a Stamina player trying to justify Stamina being even more prevalent in PvP than it already is.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyone disliking this just expose themself as getting carried by full procs

Right, because I don't want to see the exact same meta we just had, but with even more damage, I must love procs. The only people excited about this change are the ones who are going to abuse stat-stacking with procs to get literally everything for free.

To be fair, the average max stam pool on today's game is between 26k and 30k I'd say. Plus, most free healing proc sets are mostly a magica thing or a health thing. So I doubt running earthgore on a build with 5 medium, 2 heavy and have about 28k stam will actually be that effective.

People hate procsets because they hate the fact that someone can have 40k health, use a damage proc and survival proc and just faceroll the game. Not having to make a choice between damage, survival and sustain.

The only class that truly be a glass cannon these days is a Stam NB. Good healing from vigor is hard to achieve and requires you to really stack WD, which comes at a cost of either survival or sustain.

Hence why in no proc cyrodiil, stam NBs and Magsorcs are the kings. If roll dodge and vigor was good enough alone, why aren't all stam specs smashing it? Stam DK and stamplar are fairly weak at the moment. Stam warden and stam necro have some decent tankiness built in, and stam sorc can lite very efficiently. But they still are behind stam NB who can avoid damage a lot better (I mean good NBs, not people hopping on the meta).

Of course, we have to see how much this change impacts sets. If they leave the base pretty high and the scaling doesn't add much, then it will continue to be an issue.

Septimus_Magna

I understand what they're trying to do and its probably a step in the right direction but I guarantee there will be builds using these changes to their advantage and one-shot players by proccing 3 effects at the same time.

Brrrofski

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I understand what they're trying to do and its probably a step in the right direction but I guarantee there will be builds using these changes to their advantage and one-shot players by proccing 3 effects at the same time.

Yeh, for sure. Banking builds will undoubtedly be more obnoxious than before.

Fingers crossed they actually look at some problematic proc sets at the same time. There's about 6 or 7 that are the real issue. Nobody cares about Bahrahs or Leeching for instance.

Grandchamp1989

Last patch everyone did decent dmg but were bulky so fights could last long enough to be interesting.
Next patch everyone will be glass cannons and fights will be over within a blink of an eye and people go full on offensive.

More threads will demand nerf to proc sets...

Then they devs remove all proc sets and people will say it's boring and got no choices anymore

the cycle repeats.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

[snip] Procs making damage dealers tanky is no different than giving tanks free damage. It's still just stacking one stat and getting everything else for free. Y'all thought unkillable tanks were bad, now we have unkillable damage dealers with healing, mobility, damage and mitigation all scaling off their offensive stats.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamina builds don't stack their stamina pools. Damage scales poorly with stamina. This isn't true for magicka. So if they specifically wanted to build for a healing proc set they are further sacrificing damage. Where as a magicka build would gain damage and healing with this investment. I am not claiming this creates balance, but we have no idea if it causes imbalance yet either.

...Stamina builds don't stack Stamina? So what exactly do they spend their attribute points and armor glyphs on then, Magicka? You might want to read the Combat Preview again; healing from procs will scale with Stamina OR Magicka, whichever is higher. And why would damage scale more poorly with Stamina than with Magicka? Both scale damage from skills at a rate of 1050 Stamina or Magicka to 100 W/S Damage.

This just reads like more excuses being made on Stamina's behalf, it's frustrating to see Stamina players trying to justify this nonsense. Stamina is already the meta, with more armor, sprinting, rolling, blocking, breaking free, more damage against Magicka builds, when they already have less armor, a better heal from Vigor when Magicka is supposed to be the go-to for healing, and zero penalties when the other two armors have several. Magicka builds can't afford to stack only Magicka, Heavy armor users can't get away with just stacking Health anymore, both need to take some stamina for mobility, mitigation and breaking free, but where is the tradeoff being made for Stamina builds? Can't wait for someone to tell me all about the extremely nuanced and difficult decision making that goes into stacking one stat for literally everything.

Artorias24 wrote: »

Anyone disliking this just expose themself as getting carried by full procs

Right, because I don't want to see the exact same meta we just had, but with even more damage, I must love procs. The only ones excited about this change are those who plan on abusing stat-stacking with procs to get literally everything for free.

Stam builds barely Pass 30k stam. Most of them have 27k-29k so sustain their skills. But they invest fully in wp damage since it gives the best scaling to their skills.

And what do you exactly get for free when building for stat and proc? You have to invest a certain amount into your stats to make your proc sets deal damage i suppose (No patch notes Up yet and nothing have been tested). But still nothing is for free in that case. Current meta is free damage when using 4 procs and putting the rest in defensive. Thats basicly a tank with free damage.

beadabow

Don't worry, once you adapt/adjust to this change, they will cap everything at 50% of what it currently does! MWA HA HA HA HA! They really do laugh at us behind their computer screens. I know this.

preevious

It'll be a slight nerf on most build.

Build for weapon/spell damage? It'll remain the same or be slightly improved.

Build for crits? It's a nerf.