Regarding Proc sets now scaling off Max Stats

Sangwyne

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

phaneub17_ESO

I read it as "screw you pve tanks for investing in health"

relentless_turnip

Amazing change IMO. They did mention some sets would scale with health. I imagine thews and crimson will fall into this category. Probably best to wait until the patch notes are posted before making any judgement though...

Edit: they also said healing sets would scale with stam or mag, allowing you to further apecialize your role.

Jeremy

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted. Fun fun let me tell you.

Stahlor

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I read it as "screw you pve tanks for investing in health"

Well, then tanks can basically start to run two 1piece monster sets. After they screwed up sustain sets like e.g. symphony...they continue with healing sets e.g. earth gore...

relentless_turnip

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted.

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

Jeremy

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

From the U30 Combat Preview:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The growing concerns over the “proc set meta” for the past few updates has not fallen on deaf ears. We understand the frustration of feeling required to run these types of sets and fighting against them in PVP. These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs.
...
With that stated, in Update 30 we are making all item sets that deal damage or heal scale with player stats. You will need to make a conscious build choice when looking at which item sets to include in your build, rather than simply equipping three proc sets for that aforementioned “free damage”. Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage, whichever is higher. Healing sets will scale with Maximum Magicka or Stamina, whichever is higher.

So let me get this straight, a build that invests in survivability getting free damage is unacceptable, but a build that invests only in damage getting free survivability is perfectly fine? Stamina is already the meta in PvP and has Vigor to fall back on, Magicka builds have shields, but Healers normally have to invest in recovery to sustain their skills and even then they're hard-pressed to survive being focused in PvP. We just came out of a meta in which healing was so overtuned you could hardly put a dent in some players while they proceeded to mow down anyone who wasn't wearing procs, and now offensive stats are going to scale healing from them too?

I'm sure there's no way in which this could possibly go wrong.

This game always picks on tanks, so I'm not surprised. I personally have already had enough and quit my tank in PvP. I'm done with them finding a way to destroy every defense that worked half decently I could come up with. Their idea of a tank is someone who just runs around in PvP and does low damage and lives a half second longer than others before they are melted.

How could a game be balanced when you want to be a tank that does damage in PvP. The game needs to be balanced on some sort of scale where the more survivability you have the less damage you do and vice versa. They have been doing this for a while now and I think most are over the moon about these changes. You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

Anyone who builds for survival is going to have less damage regardless. So it's already balanced. And I'm not talking about a support role. I'm talking about a defensive tank, who currently in No-CP does not exist. Good players obliterate tanks right now, in seconds (if that). It's stupid. So the last thing this game needs is to nerf tanks further.

If anyone needs a nerf it's the offensive builds who are just absurdly ridiculous right now. And giving them a monopoly on procs is just going to make it worse.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Amazing change IMO. They did mention some sets would scale with health. I imagine thews and crimson will fall into this category. Probably best to wait until the patch notes are posted before making any judgement though...

Edit: they also said healing sets would scale with stam or mag, allowing you to further apecialize your role.

...You realize that Weapon and Spell damage will now scale both the amount of damage and healing that Crimson does, right? The amount of healing you receive from Crimson is contingent on the amount of damage it does, and because "Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage", the damage it deals, and thus its healing, is now based on your Weapon and Spell damage. Weapon and Spell damage will now also scale the damage from proc sets like Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy, which, I might add, now also scale from Malacath (previously impossible because you had to crit to proc them) when used with something like Critical Charge or Cloak. Buckle up folks.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

Right, except that DDs don't actually sacrifice squat now. Heals/Shields/Vigor scale off of offensive stats, sprinting, rolling, blocking scale off of offensive stats, both Crimson's damage and healing scales off of offensive stats, all healing proc sets now scale off of offensive stats, and damage proc sets now scale off of offensive stats. Damage scales mobility, mitigation from blocking/rolling, healing, shielding, and probably damage too, not sure about that last one, I'd have to check. This is on top of Medium armor granting block cost reduction, AOE damage reduction after rolling, and having an innate 20% AOE damage reduction skill, with zero downsides. What exactly is the tradeoff here?

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Amazing change IMO. They did mention some sets would scale with health. I imagine thews and crimson will fall into this category. Probably best to wait until the patch notes are posted before making any judgement though...

Edit: they also said healing sets would scale with stam or mag, allowing you to further apecialize your role.

...You realize that Weapon and Spell damage will now scale both the amount of damage and healing that Crimson does, right? The amount of healing you receive from Crimson is contingent on the amount of damage it does, and because "Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage", the damage it deals, and thus its healing, is now based on your Weapon and Spell damage. Weapon and Spell damage will now also scale the damage from proc sets like Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy, which, I might add, now also scale from Malacath (previously impossible because you had to crit to proc them) when used with something like Critical Charge or Cloak. Buckle up folks.

No one knows that yet, crimson may be an outlier as they described as it does both and it would bypass the intention if it scaled with only WD or SD so I would guess it would scale with health. No one knows how extreme the scaling is, but by the sounds of it it will be ineffective to wear more than one set and you will need another damage set for it to do a lot of damage. If someone dies very easily, but does a lot of damage this does sound like a good move imo. I will wait until I read patch notes and test on the PTS before I pass judgement though.

Edit: also the way they scale isn't effecting their proc condition as you seem to suggest on your comments about malacath. Unless I misunderstood, you will still need to crit to activate sets with these proc conditions and malacath makes this impossible.

Jeremy

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Amazing change IMO. They did mention some sets would scale with health. I imagine thews and crimson will fall into this category. Probably best to wait until the patch notes are posted before making any judgement though...

Edit: they also said healing sets would scale with stam or mag, allowing you to further apecialize your role.

...You realize that Weapon and Spell damage will now scale both the amount of damage and healing that Crimson does, right? The amount of healing you receive from Crimson is contingent on the amount of damage it does, and because "Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage", the damage it deals, and thus its healing, is now based on your Weapon and Spell damage. Weapon and Spell damage will now also scale the damage from proc sets like Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy, which, I might add, now also scale from Malacath (previously impossible because you had to crit to proc them) when used with something like Critical Charge or Cloak. Buckle up folks.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

Right, except that DDs don't actually sacrifice squat now. Heals/Shields/Vigor scale off of offensive stats, sprinting/rolling/blocking scale off of offensive stats, both Crimson's damage and healing scales off of offensive stats, all healing proc sets now scale off of offensive stats, and damage proc sets now scale off of offensive stats. Damage scales mobility, mitigation from blocking/rolling, healing, shielding, and probably damage too, not sure about that last one, I'd have to check. Meanwhile, Health scales... what exactly? Ravenous Goliath, Gripping Shards, and Thews are about the only things that scale their damage based off Health now, and they should be changed too.

Yep. Offense > Defense on this game. And these changes are likely just going to make that imbalance even more lopsided. Everyone I know have already quit playing their tanks in battlegrounds. I was the last hold out, and now even I've thrown in the towel.

The developers have been on a warpath destroying tanks for awhile now. I guess because of all those mythical un-killable players I have yet to see.

Sangwyne

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Edit: also the way they scale isn't effecting their proc condition as you seem to suggest on your comments about malacath. Unless I misunderstood, you will still need to crit to activate sets with these proc conditions and malacath makes this impossible.

Malacath was changed. Apparently it now grants 16% increased damage, but only reduces crit chance by 50% instead of making it impossible. Like I mentioned, people can now use Malacath with skills like Critical Charge or Cloak to proc Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy. Those sets will now scale off both Malacath AND Weapon/Spell damage.

DreadDaedroth

No more fun with sets for my tanks, well done Zos

Tommy_The_Gun

I share your concern OP.

I think that this change (although good, because proc sets will scale with "something") will end up in a "coin flip" meta scenario.

Instead of tanky builds having "free" dmg from proc sets, we will have bursty builds having "free" healing / survivability / tankyness from proc sets.

It is very easy to stack max stats, and those will provide both - high dmg and will boost healing sets. Very similar situation already happened in the past with dmg shield (they were scaling with max magicka). So by stacking magicka, you got very good burst dmg output, but also insanely large dmg shields. So you had both - dmg & tankyness.

I honestly believe that healing proc sets (or at least healing portion) should scale with max health.
^ That way players will have to chose, if they want high dmg output, or high survivability. And if they would want to have both, they would have to hybridize.

jekyto

You cant balance this game between pve and pvp, not in the current condition. To make it, every class should be bound to a role, but to make this, they have to rework the whole game, and that sounds too impossible. So youll always have tanks who deal dmg etc etc, otherwise optimising them for pvp, will break their roles in pve etc. No matter what youre saying, balance wont happen, so better accept it

remosito

la/ha boosting cp skills. and the two undaunted sets, way of fire, storm master, poisoneous serpent, etc might scale with offensive stats?

will have to make a build and see how high we can lift the LA/HA spammer dps floor... for science..

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Edit: also the way they scale isn't effecting their proc condition as you seem to suggest on your comments about malacath. Unless I misunderstood, you will still need to crit to activate sets with these proc conditions and malacath makes this impossible.

Malacath was changed. Apparently it now grants 16% increased damage, but only reduces crit chance by 50% instead of making it impossible. Like I mentioned, people can now use Malacath with skills like Critical Charge or Cloak to proc Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy. Those sets will now scale off both Malacath AND Weapon/Spell damage.

How do you know this? I haven't seen this and only the guys who did the preview would have seen this. Would you mind posting your source?

etchedpixels

remosito wrote: »

la/ha boosting cp skills. and the two undaunted sets, way of fire, storm master, poisoneous serpent, etc might scale with offensive stats?

will have to make a build and see how high we can lift the LA/HA spammer dps floor... for science..

Noble duelist is for melee range slightly up on the undaunted sets., and you can still stack all the extras especially on a stamsorc even today:

Noble duelist +1811
Undaunted unweaver or infiltrator +1685
Molag Kena +560
Crushing weapon + 2842
Crystal weapon + 3057
Empower x 1.4
Bound armaments x 1.1 (+ more if reactivate)

Might be a bit hard to get them all to proc at once I grant 8)


If they boost that it's really going to hurt when it hits.

Ackwalan

Scaling on max stats is lazy. It will also funnel builds into a one trick pony.

Ratzkifal

PTS hasn't even started yet. We don't even know how well proc sets scale, [snip]

Yes, something like Crimson will now probably scale with your highest offensive stat. Okay. But that means you need to run a stat based set as well otherwise it won't be doing enough. That's how the theory goes anyway, since we still don't know anything yet.

And Caluurion and Venomous Smite also still won't work well with Malacath's because Malacath's reduces your crit chance by a flat 50%, so your Caluurion's or Venomous smite will proc way less (unless you are a nightblade with a guaranteed crit). I would guess that other proc sets will still be more useful when using Malacath's .
And these setups will lack defense and sustain, so there is no real issue.

Similarly healing proc set builds will lack sustain and deal less damage than builds with offensive proc sets or two stat-based offensive sets.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

StarOfElyon

As someone who doesn't use proc sets in pvp anyway, let me just say, "Muahahaha!"

Jaraal

Can't wait to try out some stamina bomber builds with the soon to be relevant Kvatch Gladiator set!

Faded

Ratzkifal wrote: »

PTS hasn't even started yet. We don't even know how well proc sets scale, yet you are already complaining?

Everybody panic!

Grandchamp1989

I'm just scared all the heavy armor and monster helmet tank sets that offers PVE tanks survivability will be useless next patch.
If we're shoe horned into being a forever a buff bot for the DDs, with the same 4 sets, I'm not sure how long I can stomach to play the role after they nerf us yet again.

Mayrael

So? My tank damage dealer in no proc Cyrodiil works, it will work in proc Cyrodiil the same if not better just don't use procs. [snip] This is what we all wanted for a very long time, no more free damage for the ones who don't invest in it, that's all. Malacath is overcomplicated now but still, good change. Now it's time for new OP sets that will require next chapter but it's nothing new either.

PS. We still would love no proc campaign, give us one of those please.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Sangwyne

Ratzkifal wrote: »

PTS hasn't even started yet. We don't even know how well proc sets scale, [snip]

It doesn't matter how well they scale, healing from procs shouldn't scale from offensive stats at all. Stacking damage and getting free durability is no different than stacking durability and getting free damage; now anyone can just stack one stat and get everything else for no investment. Stamina gives damage, mobility, sustain, mitigation (from blocking or rolling) and now healing from procs too; Stamina was already the meta, why does it need to be the One Stat to Rule Them All?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Yes, something like Crimson will now probably scale with your highest offensive stat. Okay.

You folks complained back when Crimson didn't scale at all, and suddenly now everyone is fine with damage scaling your survivability and damage from it too?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And Caluurion and Venomous Smite also still won't work well with Malacath's because Malacath's reduces your crit chance by a flat 50%, so your Caluurion's or Venomous smite will proc way less (unless you are a nightblade with a guaranteed crit). I would guess that other proc sets will still be more useful when using Malacath's .

Critical Charge exists. A 2H skill that anyone can grab. And a gapcloser. Good luck escaping now. Venomous Smite has more damage/s than Syvarra's and the DOT lasts longer, too, the only thing keeping it in check was that Malacath couldn't scale it, and now both Malacath AND W/S damage will scale it.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And these setups will lack defense and sustain, so there is no real issue.

Ah yes, it's not like anyone can just slap on Crimson, another proc set. No, they'd never do that, since when have players exploited something like that before? Am in awe at the extremely difficult decisions being made here and the sheer amount of nuance that exists in just stacking one stat and getting literally everything you need from procs. Very different from the last PvP meta where people stacked one stat and got everything else they needed from procs. *Cough*

snoozy

brb, digging the grave for my harbinger pvp tank

Firstmep

Sangwyne wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Amazing change IMO. They did mention some sets would scale with health. I imagine thews and crimson will fall into this category. Probably best to wait until the patch notes are posted before making any judgement though...

Edit: they also said healing sets would scale with stam or mag, allowing you to further apecialize your role.

...You realize that Weapon and Spell damage will now scale both the amount of damage and healing that Crimson does, right? The amount of healing you receive from Crimson is contingent on the amount of damage it does, and because "Damage sets will scale with Spell or Weapon damage", the damage it deals, and thus its healing, is now based on your Weapon and Spell damage. Weapon and Spell damage will now also scale the damage from proc sets like Venomous Smite or Caluurion's Legacy, which, I might add, now also scale from Malacath (previously impossible because you had to crit to proc them) when used with something like Critical Charge or Cloak. Buckle up folks.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

You can still play a support role in PvP and be very useful. You will sacrifice damage to do so. Just as a DD will sacrifice survivability to do damage.

Right, except that DDs don't actually sacrifice squat now. Heals/Shields/Vigor scale off of offensive stats, sprinting, rolling, blocking scale off of offensive stats, both Crimson's damage and healing scales off of offensive stats, all healing proc sets now scale off of offensive stats, and damage proc sets now scale off of offensive stats. Damage scales mobility, mitigation from blocking/rolling, healing, shielding, and probably damage too, not sure about that last one, I'd have to check. This is on top of Medium armor granting block cost reduction, AOE damage reduction after rolling, and having an innate 20% AOE damage reduction skill, with zero downsides. What exactly is the tradeoff here?

[snip] Sprinting dodging blocking scaling? Thats a new mechanic for me. You realize most Stam players don't have more than 30k Stam, and that is already generous.
Damage scales mobility? [snip]
You realize that on live, where procs enabled, you can be both a tank and a damage dealer with 0 downsides? There is no trade off there.
This change aims to change that.
If you want to play a support tank build that does no damage, but only ccs etc, you can already do that..
The whole point of the scaling is to reign in procsets.
If done right, if you run multiple procs, your offensive stats will be lower and thus your procs will do little damage, or you will have to sacrafice sustain or tankyness to get those stats back.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

DreadDaedroth

Scaling with highest offensive Stats makes this game more and more for dds only.

relentless_turnip

Sangwyne wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

PTS hasn't even started yet. We don't even know how well proc sets scale, [snip]

It doesn't matter how well they scale, healing from procs shouldn't scale from offensive stats at all. Stacking damage and getting free durability is no different than stacking durability and getting free damage; now anyone can just stack one stat and get everything else for no investment. Stamina gives damage, mobility, sustain, mitigation (from blocking or rolling) and now healing from procs too; Stamina was already the meta, why does it need to be the One Stat to Rule Them All?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Yes, something like Crimson will now probably scale with your highest offensive stat. Okay.

You folks complained back when Crimson didn't scale at all, and suddenly now everyone is fine with damage scaling your survivability and damage from it too?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And Caluurion and Venomous Smite also still won't work well with Malacath's because Malacath's reduces your crit chance by a flat 50%, so your Caluurion's or Venomous smite will proc way less (unless you are a nightblade with a guaranteed crit). I would guess that other proc sets will still be more useful when using Malacath's .

Critical Charge exists. A 2H skill that anyone can grab. And a gapcloser. Good luck escaping now. Venomous Smite has more damage/s than Syvarra's and the DOT lasts longer, too, the only thing keeping it in check was that Malacath couldn't scale it, and now both Malacath AND W/S damage will scale it.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

And these setups will lack defense and sustain, so there is no real issue.

Ah yes, it's not like anyone can just slap on Crimson, another proc set. No, they'd never do that, since when have players exploited something like that before? Am in awe at the extremely difficult decisions being made here and the sheer amount of nuance that exists in just stacking one stat and getting literally everything you need from procs. Very different from the last PvP meta where people stacked one stat and got everything else they needed from procs. *Cough*

I think most likely you'll need a big stamina pool for the heal to be effective. Which is most likely the point as stam characters typically stack a lot of weapon damage. Meaning you'd have to consciously build for the heal to be good.I don't have higher than 30k stam on any of my builds as damage scales poorly with stamina. Meaning healing sets will most likely scale better with magicka characters and damage sets will scale better with stam characters. I'm not saying that's fair, but we need to see the patch notes before worrying about it. As the scalability maybe different for magicka and stamina, because you build them differently.

With the rumours of malacath only providing 16% more damage I don't think that the builds you're describing will be particularly popular. Don't get me wrong I think a venomous from stealth on someone with all damage build will be horrendous, but they will have to be an absolute glass cannon for it to be effective and can't be worse than they are able to achieve with stats. With the added fact they are forgoing their high crit modifier for the first tick of venomous the same with crit charge. This is a much more reasonable trade off than it is now imo, where you have 25% more damage on a tanky build who could rely on malacath to make up the damage they lost building tanky.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

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relentless_turnip

Nirnstorm just confirmed that crimson and thews will scale off of max health or resistances 👍
https://youtu.be/4zynSh403cQ