Update on Proc Set Plan in Cyrodiil

WolfyRaps

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

Getting to a point where they balance the classes to a point where they remove their identity is not preferable either.

As it is not good for the health of the game to nerf all "proc" sets into oblivion and force us all to use one unique stat set that proves to be the best amongs a short list of viable options, as it was the case with NMA.

Seraphayel

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

Getting to a point where they balance the classes to a point where they remove their identity is not preferable either.

As it is not good for the health of the game to nerf all "proc" sets into oblivion and force us all to use one unique stat set that proves to be the best amongs a short list of viable options, as it was the case with NMA.

Proc sets do not make class identity. They destroy it to a point where everything revolves around getting a proc every x seconds because the class toolkit is lacking - this needs to be fixed. Proc sets at best should provide some source of passive damage or healing and not be the main reason why you achieve things.

Personally I do not have issues with proc sets that are % based. My only gripe are proc sets with a very short CD that deal a high amount of damage or healing (and sometimes even AoE which is insane, like Earthgore some years ago, completely broken).

I agree that ZOS' class / skill audit homogenized a lot of things, which from a balance perspective is good, but from a diversity perspective is bad - (in PvP) it seemed necessary though because... ZOS is not very good at balance, let's be honest here.

Forcing everyone to use stat based sets reduces the PvP to what it should be: player skill - again, this is the only way to make weaknesses and strengths obvious and to see where things have to be corrected, because your build isn't carried by procs anymore.

WolfyRaps

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

Getting to a point where they balance the classes to a point where they remove their identity is not preferable either.

As it is not good for the health of the game to nerf all "proc" sets into oblivion and force us all to use one unique stat set that proves to be the best amongs a short list of viable options, as it was the case with NMA.

Proc sets do not make class identity. They destroy it to a point where everything revolves around getting a proc every x seconds because the class toolkit is lacking - this needs to be fixed. Proc sets at best should provide some source of passive damage or healing and not be the main reason why you achieve things.

Personally I do not have issues with proc sets that are % based. My only gripe are proc sets with a very short CD that deal a high amount of damage or healing (and sometimes even AoE which is insane, like Earthgore some years ago, completely broken).

I agree that ZOS' class / skill audit homogenized a lot of things, which from a balance perspective is good, but from a diversity perspective is bad - (in PvP) it seemed necessary though because... ZOS is not very good at balance, let's be honest here.

Forcing everyone to use stat based sets reduces the PvP to what it should be: player skill - again, this is the only way to make weaknesses and strengths obvious and to see where things have to be corrected, because your build isn't carried by procs anymore.

Still things should be kept balanced between stat and proc sets.

Zaan is not by any means the "I win" set that people make it out to be for example. It is a set that has to be used on a glass cannon high crit light armor build, so malacath is out of the question. Zaan and Calurion are needed atm to carry a relativly weak class in BGs like MagBlade. But the solution to balance MagBlades is not simple as they are already near the top of the food chain in duels. Buff their class kit a little more and they become almost unbeatable 1v1. The "troll" sets like Crimson I really don't care if they remove them as I do not use them. EV is much supperiour for a PVP tanky build. I use sets that complement my playstyle on every class. For example Stamcro has the option to frontload a bunch of damage with NMA and spam DS until execute. Or it can use a proc set back bar that pressurse the oponent while I am defending so I can switch bar for a quick burst. On MagDk I use ElfBane/Grothar which is one particular playstyle for Magdk amongst many that makes me an aoe monster but weaker in 1v1..

I think that the option to complement your class kit with proc sets should remain. This takes nothing out of a players so called "skill", it just gives different playstyle options.

Seraphayel

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

Getting to a point where they balance the classes to a point where they remove their identity is not preferable either.

As it is not good for the health of the game to nerf all "proc" sets into oblivion and force us all to use one unique stat set that proves to be the best amongs a short list of viable options, as it was the case with NMA.

Proc sets do not make class identity. They destroy it to a point where everything revolves around getting a proc every x seconds because the class toolkit is lacking - this needs to be fixed. Proc sets at best should provide some source of passive damage or healing and not be the main reason why you achieve things.

Personally I do not have issues with proc sets that are % based. My only gripe are proc sets with a very short CD that deal a high amount of damage or healing (and sometimes even AoE which is insane, like Earthgore some years ago, completely broken).

I agree that ZOS' class / skill audit homogenized a lot of things, which from a balance perspective is good, but from a diversity perspective is bad - (in PvP) it seemed necessary though because... ZOS is not very good at balance, let's be honest here.

Forcing everyone to use stat based sets reduces the PvP to what it should be: player skill - again, this is the only way to make weaknesses and strengths obvious and to see where things have to be corrected, because your build isn't carried by procs anymore.

Still things should be kept balanced between stat and proc sets.

Zaan is not by any means the "I win" set that people make it out to be for example. It is a set that has to be used on a glass cannon high crit light armor build, so malacath is out of the question. Zaan and Calurion are needed atm to carry a relativly weak class in BGs like MagBlade. But the solution to balance MagBlades is not simple as they are already near the top of the food chain in duels. Buff their class kit a little more and they become almost unbeatable 1v1. The "troll" sets like Crimson I really don't care if they remove them as I do not use them. EV is much supperiour for a PVP tanky build. I use sets that complement my playstyle on every class. For example Stamcro has the option to frontload a bunch of damage with NMA and spam DS until execute. Or it can use a proc set back bar that pressurse the oponent while I am defending so I can switch bar for a quick burst. On MagDk I use ElfBane/Grothar which is one particular playstyle for Magdk amongst many that makes me an aoe monster but weaker in 1v1..

I think that the option to complement your class kit with proc sets should remain. This takes nothing out of a players so called "skill", it just gives different playstyle options.

It will remain, that's not even up for debate and even ZOS said that. They are just trying to evaluate the situation and adjust where necessary. This 3 months phase of no proc sets is just mandatory to see where the underlying problems are when it comes to class / build balancing. Proc sets should complain builds, not make them. And right now builds are almost completely relying on proc sets and built around them - and this shouldn't be the case. I mean you're saying that Zaan, Calurion or set x are needed to carry weak classes is exactly what shouldn't happen and hopefully gets resolved.

Often before it gets better it has to hurt and this is the situation now. 3 months of hurting and way longer time of healing is the optimal outcome of this - is it guaranteed? No, by no means. But at the moment I remain carefully positive.

WolfyRaps

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

Getting to a point where they balance the classes to a point where they remove their identity is not preferable either.

As it is not good for the health of the game to nerf all "proc" sets into oblivion and force us all to use one unique stat set that proves to be the best amongs a short list of viable options, as it was the case with NMA.

Proc sets do not make class identity. They destroy it to a point where everything revolves around getting a proc every x seconds because the class toolkit is lacking - this needs to be fixed. Proc sets at best should provide some source of passive damage or healing and not be the main reason why you achieve things.

Personally I do not have issues with proc sets that are % based. My only gripe are proc sets with a very short CD that deal a high amount of damage or healing (and sometimes even AoE which is insane, like Earthgore some years ago, completely broken).

I agree that ZOS' class / skill audit homogenized a lot of things, which from a balance perspective is good, but from a diversity perspective is bad - (in PvP) it seemed necessary though because... ZOS is not very good at balance, let's be honest here.

Forcing everyone to use stat based sets reduces the PvP to what it should be: player skill - again, this is the only way to make weaknesses and strengths obvious and to see where things have to be corrected, because your build isn't carried by procs anymore.

Still things should be kept balanced between stat and proc sets.

Zaan is not by any means the "I win" set that people make it out to be for example. It is a set that has to be used on a glass cannon high crit light armor build, so malacath is out of the question. Zaan and Calurion are needed atm to carry a relativly weak class in BGs like MagBlade. But the solution to balance MagBlades is not simple as they are already near the top of the food chain in duels. Buff their class kit a little more and they become almost unbeatable 1v1. The "troll" sets like Crimson I really don't care if they remove them as I do not use them. EV is much supperiour for a PVP tanky build. I use sets that complement my playstyle on every class. For example Stamcro has the option to frontload a bunch of damage with NMA and spam DS until execute. Or it can use a proc set back bar that pressurse the oponent while I am defending so I can switch bar for a quick burst. On MagDk I use ElfBane/Grothar which is one particular playstyle for Magdk amongst many that makes me an aoe monster but weaker in 1v1..

I think that the option to complement your class kit with proc sets should remain. This takes nothing out of a players so called "skill", it just gives different playstyle options.

It will remain, that's not even up for debate and even ZOS said that. They are just trying to evaluate the situation and adjust where necessary. This 3 months phase of no proc sets is just mandatory to see where the underlying problems are when it comes to class / build balancing. Proc sets should complain builds, not make them. And right now builds are almost completely relying on proc sets and built around them - and this shouldn't be the case. I mean you're saying that Zaan, Calurion or set x are needed to carry weak classes is exactly what shouldn't happen and hopefully gets resolved.

Often before it gets better it has to hurt and this is the situation now. 3 months of hurting and way longer time of healing is the optimal outcome of this - is it guaranteed? No, by no means. But at the moment I remain carefully positive.

There are no builds built around proc sets atm. There are proc sets that complement builds.

MagBlade is and should remain a class that kills quicky and than has to disapear because it can't tank damage. That is their class identity. This is why high burst sets complement MagBlade best. On MagSorc you can sustain dps from a distance much easier and streak away if you are in danger so you can confortably use a full stat set. It is the time pressure imposed on MagBlades that makes them best suited to use certain proc sets.

Almost all the classes that I have the option to use proc sets on now, with or without Malacath, used to have a NMA alternative build before. The universal NMA build is still viable and I can still revert back to it if ZOS demands it. I just don't want to because I think that an uniform build across the field is very boring.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Sascha

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Sascha wrote: »

Thought Id throw in my two cents, Ive been pvping since IC came out and I've watched the game balancing get progressively worse because of power creep on CP and sets, proc or otherwise. About a year and a half ago I left because of all the troll groups running proc tank builds. Disabling the majority of sets like this is honestly about the only thing that could have brought me back to the game. The last week or so of pvp has been some of the most fun and worthwhile I've played in the games history.

Now tonight I stepped into CP IC and it reminded me wby I left. There were troll builds running the new arena weapons +zaan + malacath, with fast tank builds so you cant break away. I was on stam sorc and couldn't outrun the beams. These guys generally showed up in twos and ran over small groups of both factions without blinking. If you pressured them, the beams plus all the dots eviscerated youf health even when they had to go on the defensive. When you combine all these sets with customizable CP, and the new changes, proc builds are more cancerous than ever.

Having most proc and % sets disabled is a breath of fresh air. I've heard a lot of people say it's been the most balanced and fun pvp has been in years. I wholeheartedly agree.

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

[snip]

These guys in IC, they weren't farming tel var, they were trolling other factions, ep had a large group on at the time and they steamrolled me a few times as well while I was looking for chests. Proc sets, especially in groups, with CP, and with things like malacaths just gives very troll players too many ways to bend the rules. It's like when people were stacking CP, Vampire mitigation, blackrose mitigation, etc to become unkillable tank/dps. too many ways to break the math, especially with mixed flat numbers and percentages.

If you love how things are then your entitled to your opinion, [snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

WolfyRaps

Sascha wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Sascha wrote: »

Thought Id throw in my two cents, Ive been pvping since IC came out and I've watched the game balancing get progressively worse because of power creep on CP and sets, proc or otherwise. About a year and a half ago I left because of all the troll groups running proc tank builds. Disabling the majority of sets like this is honestly about the only thing that could have brought me back to the game. The last week or so of pvp has been some of the most fun and worthwhile I've played in the games history.

Now tonight I stepped into CP IC and it reminded me wby I left. There were troll builds running the new arena weapons +zaan + malacath, with fast tank builds so you cant break away. I was on stam sorc and couldn't outrun the beams. These guys generally showed up in twos and ran over small groups of both factions without blinking. If you pressured them, the beams plus all the dots eviscerated youf health even when they had to go on the defensive. When you combine all these sets with customizable CP, and the new changes, proc builds are more cancerous than ever.

Having most proc and % sets disabled is a breath of fresh air. I've heard a lot of people say it's been the most balanced and fun pvp has been in years. I wholeheartedly agree.

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

[snip]

These guys in IC, they weren't farming tel var, they were trolling other factions, ep had a large group on at the time and they steamrolled me a few times as well while I was looking for chests. Proc sets, especially in groups, with CP, and with things like malacaths just gives very troll players too many ways to bend the rules. It's like when people were stacking CP, Vampire mitigation, blackrose mitigation, etc to become unkillable tank/dps. too many ways to break the math, especially with mixed flat numbers and percentages.

If you love how things are then your entitled to your opinion, [snip]

Not heated. Im just poiting out the obvious.. A ball group will roll you in IC regardless if they have procs or not.. Me too on any of my classes exept sorc or blade I just roll and die when I meet a group intent on murdering me (even if 1v1 I could beat any of them). It's certainly not the proc sets doing the killing on either side, its just pure numbers and the many beat the few...

On MagSorc though I just streak away and keep my stones.. This is why in the current IC format the same classes that proffit the most from "no proc" meta also have a huge strategical advantage in that environement..

Sascha

SillyGT wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno thank you for reducing this nonsense.

Please, next time, be carefull who you are listening to on the forums. There are loud people on forums that are immune to self critic and are blaming everything and everyone but themselves for their lack of succes in any game. In this case were the "proc sets" that for any player with half a brain can easily outplay, but which reduced the class inbalance, ofered variaty in builds and made the game more fun. Same "proc sets" are not as strong on any class and I can say that because I tried them all (Crimson, by the way, is "trash" level for any serious pvper) and while some might be a bit overtuned in certain situations, in most situations they can simply be outplayed (roll away from vateshran or zaan).

There is a quiet majority of veterans that know the games ins and outs that suddently became active on the forum after this outrage of a decision and gave ZOS some great advice. Please listen to them !

well said,
quoted for truth.
you hit the nail on the head exactly with that one and i pray zenimax listens to you because your right on this.

This is not true in the slightest. If you are fighting someone with good proc sets you are more than likely going to lose that fight no matter what you do. It’s a 95% chance of losing that fight every time. You are pretty much advocating that I need these things to do well. You have to admit they are far better than anything else. There’s need to be a middle ground where they can be used but not enforced. They should not be the only option.

Broken proc sets on a newbie, whatever. Broken proc sets on a good player, very frustrating. Broken proc sets on a duo/trio of proc tank trolls, makes people consider leaving pvp.

WolfyRaps

Sascha wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Sascha wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Sascha wrote: »

Thought Id throw in my two cents, Ive been pvping since IC came out and I've watched the game balancing get progressively worse because of power creep on CP and sets, proc or otherwise. About a year and a half ago I left because of all the troll groups running proc tank builds. Disabling the majority of sets like this is honestly about the only thing that could have brought me back to the game. The last week or so of pvp has been some of the most fun and worthwhile I've played in the games history.

Now tonight I stepped into CP IC and it reminded me wby I left. There were troll builds running the new arena weapons +zaan + malacath, with fast tank builds so you cant break away. I was on stam sorc and couldn't outrun the beams. These guys generally showed up in twos and ran over small groups of both factions without blinking. If you pressured them, the beams plus all the dots eviscerated youf health even when they had to go on the defensive. When you combine all these sets with customizable CP, and the new changes, proc builds are more cancerous than ever.

Having most proc and % sets disabled is a breath of fresh air. I've heard a lot of people say it's been the most balanced and fun pvp has been in years. I wholeheartedly agree.

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Do you really feel the need to attack the argument of everyone with a different opinion so badly? Your just cherry picking scenarios to counter people every time they say they like the game without procs.

These guys in IC, they weren't farming tel var, they were trolling other factions, ep had a large group on at the time and they steamrolled me a few times as well while I was looking for chests. Proc sets, especially in groups, with CP, and with things like malacaths just gives very troll players too many ways to bend the rules. It's like when people were stacking CP, Vampire mitigation, blackrose mitigation, etc to become unkillable tank/dps. too many ways to break the math, especially with mixed flat numbers and percentages.

If you love how things are then your entitled to your opinion, just stop trying to shove it in everyone's face, half the posts on here have a heated reply from you.

Not heated. Im just poiting out the obvious.. A ball group will roll you in IC regardless if they have procs or not.. Me too on any of my classes exept sorc or blade I just roll and die when I meet a group intent on murdering me (even if 1v1 I could beat any of them). It's certainly not the proc sets doing the killing on either side, its just pure numbers and the many beat the few...

On MagSorc though I just streak away and keep my stones.. This is why in the current IC format the same classes that proffit the most from "no proc" meta also have a huge strategical advantage in that environement..

[Quoted post was removed]

Yes, the many beat the few... Don't blame the proc sets for it because it has nothing to do with it...

Sascha

Xandreia_ wrote: »

[Quoted post removed]

they don't listen to us that have been playing for 7 years, they listen to people who are casuals (and before you start no im not being a bully) i have personally been playing pvp for the entire time taking breaks for pve for skins and farming gear.

the reason we are so passionate about it is because we remember pvp with no lag, when it was fun, you could x and make good content which in turn brings in people who want to play the game meaning more money for zos. pre non proc tests playing in pvp was near impossible because people who havent got much skill (again im not being a bully just stating facts) were being carried by sets that did burst damage for you. look at small streamers and content creators that arent on the stream team, the majority of them have the same views i do! you want to know why? because we played when pvp was at its best and want to get it back to that point

*waits to be dragged*

Agreed. The worst is when players who know how to play but wish to do nothing but dominate others, run proc and percentage based sets, usually in small elitist groups. (think of the 2x warden meme/troll builds from a bit over a year ago). I missed the pre-proc-era pvp greatly, I quit the game because of the cancer builds and only came back because I heard they were fully disabled for the next while. It's really refreshing.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting and Non-Constructive Back and Forth. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

UntouchableHunter

Seraphayel wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jayserix wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Proc sets are going to be disabled until U30. They won’t enable them just because a loud minority in the forum begs for it.

What?

That's exactly what they did. A loud minority who couldn't figure out how to counter 95% of the sets in the game complained and begged for the no proc test to become their forever friend and guess what? ZOS hit us from out of nowhere, without warning that we would be without our gear for SIX MONTHS with a spur of the moment decision.

So you claiming that ZOS doesn't listen and doesn't spring huge surprises on people because of forum feedback is quite wrong.

A reasonable amount of people liked proc-free Cyrodiil. We don’t know about numbers, it can be 50:50, it can be 90:10, we just don’t know. So neither your position nor mine is valid in this regard as we both could be right or wrong.

What I am saying is that ZOS got the feeling / perception that proc-free Cyrodiil is appreciated and they already planned to rework how proc sets work in Cyrodiil, so they just went with the change.

Again, they won’t change their opinion again. They did reduce it from 6 to 3 months to find a middle ground and still have enough time to come up with ideas and work on it. They’re not going to enable proc sets next week just because. Y’all have to arrange with this fact, especially when you see that the riot in the forum is driven by very few people. Your opinion is valid, but it won’t change the immediate status quo.

If they don't listen to reasons on forums then maybe they will listen when they will see their income drop. Me and many other PVPers will not get an ESO+ subscription until all the sets are returned.

And we will not get a new subscription and buy any new expansion if they nerf the "proc" sets out of existence and they force us all into a cookie cutter build like it was the case with NMA (I still have 6 versions of that set in my bank in all armor types and I still use it on my stamblade and magcro build..).

And many ressubed because of the changes, moot point

Yeah, this is it. I see so many old players returning and I see so many posts in the forums or on Reddit and videos on YouTube from streamers that say no proc Cyrodiil is great and it basically breathed new life into PvP in ESO. I understand the frustration, but at the same time there is very much excitement and appreciation of ZOS decision to just give PvP a resurrection, even if it’s just for 3 months.

Unfortunately this discussion has become just back and forth between very few individuals, but what is true is that a lot of people are enjoying the new status quo. More than who dislike it? Who knows. But enough that it shows online.

What classes are the people who enjoy this mainly playing ? Because almost all of them are magsorcs and stamblades..

I am ok to give them a separate campaign where they can kill eachother in an exclusive sorc / blade feast..

Let us all others who enjoy playing the whole game and different classes have the game we paid for !!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_BrianWheeler

All classes/builds basically, I've seen videos from Magplars, Magblades, Magcros, Stamplars etc. on YouTube from players that enjoy the no proc environment a lot. Fun and enjoyment of no proc set Cyrodiil is not class specific. And yes, Magsorcs as well because they are exceptionally strong since launch in 2014 (Magsorc never was weak). There are classes (Sorc) and build types (Stamina in general) that are very powerful with and without sets, but that's due to class balance which has to be adjusted.

A general no proc Cyrodiil environment is the only way to achieve class balance, that's why it's so important that the sets don't work because strengths and weaknesses can be observed way better this way. You seem to complain about balance, but in the end this is the only way to figure out what to nerf and what to buff, because the differences become obvious. If ZOS doesn't use the results from this test in the U30 update to balance classes you're right, turning off the proc sets for everyone was pointless. But if they do, it was worth it - right now we just have to wait and see what's coming, there's no other way to it.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

This is the problem.

We have solo stream players that are pushing to remove procs from Cyrodill because they don't care about the balance. They care about their audience that wana see they killing pugs really fast.

They call their selfs solos players. And they love fight against 10 noob players that they kill really fast with two dswing and execute but when they fight one or only two skilled guys they call us trash or snipe streamers because we are trying to protect our resources or the members of our faction.

The streamer are a loud MINORITY that don't speak for the majority. You can be a solo player, I play solo a lot but I will never blame when 20 guys jump on me and kill me because this is Cyrodill.

Solo players must understand if the keeping push for homogenize the game with no groups, no ball groups, no cross healing, no proc sets, and only stamina and Sorcs this game e will day with a few streamer running a map looking for enemies that won't be there anymore.

And about the balance in Cyrodill, I don't believe you are serious about that....

Nagastani

It is unusual how they decided to take Vicious Death out as well, with all the other proc sets.

That's like one of the only things to help counter ball groups or any kind of groups really and is my understanding was added to the game because of the fact.

Interesting change. Makes one wonder where this decision to remove proc sets came from, maybe they just wanted to see if it would reduce lag. Strange though.

Starshadw

WolfyRaps wrote: »

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

Jaraal

Seraphayel wrote: »

.This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

All the wasted time without 95% of our gear is just helping to put ZOS behind the curve. Why would they waste six or even three months trying to balance the new CP only to throw proc sets back into the mix and have to figure everything out all over again? All they are doing is putting everyone (including themselves) on hold as far as balancing gear with CP and skills. Just one example: they added bombing (Occult Overload, players explode for 2k damage to nearby players when killed) to the CP tree. But they don't want to test how it stacks with Vicious Death set for three more months? Why put everybody on hold? Just enable the whole game now and get the balancing done now, not later.

BTW, Occult Overload is a boon to ball groups, who have dedicated purgebots removing status effects as soon as they hit. But they will be blowing up solo players and regular groups who can't afford to slot purge and are currently denied access to cleansing sets like Curse Eater with much more frequency. And let's just wait until July to see what kind of madness VD brings back to the mix, lol

Nagastani

Starshadw wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

Thought about this again and although I do agree it wouldn't hurt for the devs to look at class balancing, sometimes in certain circumstances we run into like what I call a 'pot-hole' in the build and must use Proc Sets as a work-around to fill that gap. There are various reasons why we do this, some are more personal others are more specific like with people trying to reach certain numerical thresholds.

You know, I mean technically no you shouldn't need to use the proc set in that manner however it is what it is. Getting back to Sorc, the Sorc class has already experienced several notable nerfs and is not super insanely dominant as it once was. I really don't see what more you can pull out of the Sorc class and still call it a Sorc.

I think in fairness perhaps the ultimate solution is to not produce or continue to use any sets in this game unless you can defend the ability of the set to be balanced against everything else. You know, Sorc aside, there are other classes where disparity exists, such as Templar vs NB. None of my NBs stand any chance of 'duking it out' in melee combat against a Templar. It is just not happening.

There is much work to be done here however I think we should be careful what the next steps are and no one should do anything until there is a proper vision established, whatever ZOS decides that may be, and then carefully move towards that vision. Because it seems like we're all just going in different directions here, everyone is wanting to nerf something else and sadly that's just not going to get us anywhere.

hibbles

Krulzuk wrote: »

ZoS Confirmed sets that fully work:

Amber Plasm
Armor of the Trainee
Beekeeper’s Gear
Crafty Alfiq
Draugr Hulk
Endurance
Fortified Brass
Grace of the Ancients
Hunding’s Rage
Impregnable Armor
Law of Julianos
Leviathan
Mother’s Sorrow
Plague Doctor
Shacklebreaker
Spinner’s Garments
Spriggan’s Thorns
Willpower
Agility


Unconfirmed(maybe I made mistakes) Sets that have an extra stat line of some kind as an extra 5pc, so could still be maybe considered (not counting trial sets that have trial-only buffs in them):

Akaviri Dragonguard
Black Rose
Call of the Undertaker
Champion of the Hist
Coward's Gear
Dauntless Combatant
Dead Water's Guile
Dragon's Defilement
Eternal Vigor
Fasalla's Guile
Hanu's Compassion
Healer's Habit
Heem-Jas' Retribution
Hex Siphon
Hide of Morihaus
Jailbreaker
Kagrenac's Hope
Knightmare
Might of the Lost Legion
Night Mother's Embrace
Oblivion's Edge
Obvlivion's Foe
Order of Diagna
Pestilent Host
Ranger's Gait
Rattlecage
Sentry
Shadow Dancer's Raiment
Shalk Exoskeleton
Toothrow
Treasure Hunter
Vampire Cloak
Vastarie's Tutelage
Vicious Death
Warrior-Poet
Wisdom of Vanus
Wizard's Riposte

I am running jailbreaker it seems as though the 5ht bonus of a 15% speed increase is not working in PVP and does not show up as an active effect either

WolfyRaps

Starshadw wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

I only play IC with my magsorc, equiped with in full Sorcodiil approved gear..

I am forced to do this because that is the only class together with stam/mag blade that you can reliably farm tel var stone with. In IC even if you are the strongest player EU with the strongest build that ever existed you will get ganked by groups, unless you can escape..

So I cannot reliably play my magplar, magdk or stamco there, classes that I enjoy playing more than magsorc, because, unlike magsorc, it is impossible to avoid dieing and losing my stones.

You are telling a red herring.. The proc sets have absolutly nothing to do with you getting killed, Its simply organised groups ganking you as they would gank me or anybody else.

Those proc sets that you hate on give at least a fighting chance, without leveling the playing field though, to other classes when confronted with magsorcs..

Remove the sets from IC and you will make the class that is already dominating IC, without needing proc sets because it scales very well with stat builds, absolutly God tier.. It is alredy very hard to play any other class than magsorc in IC. Remove the proc sets or nerf them to dust and there will no longer be 30% sorcs there as there are now. There will be 95% magsorcs in IC...

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

You understood wrong. I am saying that there are different tools for different workers and different jobs.

Sorcs have no need of proc sets... They scale best with stats.. A sorc with proc sets is weaker that a sorc with max stats set !

This is not the case for other classes! Different workers need diferent tools for different jobs..

And its a good thing that there is a diversity in workers and jobs and, at least for now, tools (outside Cyro)..

silver1surfer69

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

First, we want to thank everyone for taking the time to provide so much valuable feedback regarding our decision to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil until Update 31. We understand this is a very polarizing topic and while many of you like this direction, we acknowledge that there are just as many who do not. When we had the last Cyrodiil test activated, we did initially get a lot of positive feedback surrounding the removal of item set procs in Cyrodiil, and from a technical standpoint, it made sense for us to leave proc sets disabled until we were able to complete some additional necessary work for Update 31. We also recognize that disabling proc sets in the long term generated a lot more concern than the three-week test we initially proposed, and that this sudden change in the timeline was quite jarring.

We’ve spent a lot of time discussing our options to improve the experience in the short term. We still plan to leave proc sets disabled in Cyrodiil and will instead reduce the duration of this change until Update 30. With the Update 30 launch, we will then re-enable all item set bonuses in Cyrodiil alongside some additional planned proc set work (we'll provide details in the Update 30 Combat Preview). In Update 31, we still plan to add more flexibility and customizable campaign rulesets as it relates to item sets, and we will be able to fine tune which proc sets we turn on and off.

For those of you on console, you can expect to see item set procs disabled in Cyrodiil this Tuesday, March 16, once Update 29 launches. Any subsequent changes will follow the schedule outlined above.

Again, we greatly appreciate everyone’s feedback on these proposed changes and the related timeline. We want to ensure that you can still play the way you want and have fun in PvP, and we hope that these revised plans strike a better balance for everyone both in the short and long-term.

[Snip] I read this as you basicaly do everything ppl are yelling for with even throwing all your own work from the last years overboard. What ppl are yelling will change every minute and there will be as much diversity as there are players. If you disable stuff then do not invent and implement it in the first place. [Snip] So stand to your decissions, i really have faith that if you invent and implement stuff i think you have thought about it before and you know your buisiness.

[Edited for rude comments]

Zabagad

hibbles wrote: »

Krulzuk wrote: »

Unconfirmed(maybe I made mistakes) Sets that have an extra stat line of some kind as an extra 5pc, so could still be maybe considered (not counting trial sets that have trial-only buffs in them):
[...]
Hide of Morihaus
Jailbreaker
Kagrenac's Hope
[...]

I am running jailbreaker it seems as though the 5ht bonus of a 15% speed increase is not working in PVP and does not show up as an active effect either

But you should get the "extra stat line" of jailbreaker which is the stam reg increase by 142.
And thats exactly what is written in the post you quotet...

Zabagad

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Joy_Division

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

Seraphayel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

Joy_Division

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

2 of those stam specs are top tier because of their class kit. Warden and Necro were designed with how ZOs developed the game (namely standardization of abilities, skills perform specific as opposed to multiple functions, classes designed with "stamina" skills in mind, etc.) rather than how the game was released (in which every skill was magicka, no such thing as stamina based heals, every weapon scaled off weapon damage, etc). The classes that struggle do so because they are squared pegs trying to fit in ZOS's new round hole.

What you write about the general advantage of stamina Vs magicka is true. But even if ZOS goes and improves magicka based gameplay (questionable to begin with), Stamden and Stamcro will still be top tier because their class kits fit ESO's current design and the overall stam kit will still be good. What will happen is that lesser tier stamina specs will be relatively worse and still leave every magicka spec (including sorcs since they're now nerfed) cherry picking options outside their kit, which doesn't get to the heart of the issue: certain classes have poor/obsolete skills and passives.

Seraphayel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

2 of those stam specs are top tier because of their class kit. Warden and Necro were designed with how ZOs developed the game (namely scandalization of abilities, skills perform specific as opposed to multiple functions, classes designed with "stamina" skills in mind, etc.) rather than how the game was released (in which every skill was magicka, no such thing as stamina based heals, every weapon scaled off weapon damage, etc). The classes that struggle do so because they are squared pegs trying to fit in ZOS's new round hole.

What you write about the general advantage of stamina Vs magicka is true. But even if ZOS goes and improves magicka based gameplay (questionable to begin with), Stamden and Stamcro will still be top tier because their class kits fit ESO's current design and the overall stam kit will still be good. What will happen is that lesser tier stamina specs will be relatively worse and still leave every magicka spec (including sorcs since they're now nerfed) cherry picking options outside their kit, which doesn't get to the heart of the issue: certain classes have poor/obsolete skills and passives.

Wardens’ and Necromancers‘ toolkit is more diverse due to them being newer classes, yes. Stamina skill lines and their class toolkit compliment each other very well, but let’s keep it real, the Stamina toolkit is just better overall. Is there a Stamspec at the moment that is inferior to a Magspec besides Magsorc? I really don’t know, that’s why I ask. My perception is that basically every class in PvP is better off with its Stamina counterpart except Sorcs. But I’m happy if someone updates / educates me on that topic.

Joy_Division

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

2 of those stam specs are top tier because of their class kit. Warden and Necro were designed with how ZOs developed the game (namely scandalization of abilities, skills perform specific as opposed to multiple functions, classes designed with "stamina" skills in mind, etc.) rather than how the game was released (in which every skill was magicka, no such thing as stamina based heals, every weapon scaled off weapon damage, etc). The classes that struggle do so because they are squared pegs trying to fit in ZOS's new round hole.

What you write about the general advantage of stamina Vs magicka is true. But even if ZOS goes and improves magicka based gameplay (questionable to begin with), Stamden and Stamcro will still be top tier because their class kits fit ESO's current design and the overall stam kit will still be good. What will happen is that lesser tier stamina specs will be relatively worse and still leave every magicka spec (including sorcs since they're now nerfed) cherry picking options outside their kit, which doesn't get to the heart of the issue: certain classes have poor/obsolete skills and passives.

Wardens’ and Necromancers‘ toolkit is more diverse due to them being newer classes, yes. Stamina skill lines and their class toolkit compliment each other very well, but let’s keep it real, the Stamina toolkit is just better overall. Is there a Stamspec at the moment that is inferior to a Magspec besides Magsorc? I really don’t know, that’s why I ask. My perception is that basically every class in PvP is better off with its Stamina counterpart except Sorcs. But I’m happy if someone updates / educates me on that topic.

I would say there isn't. I would say that a Magplar is more useful in the AvAvA format than a Stamplar, but even then Magplars are overrated because their best helping skill is something that all Stamplars slot and I'd argue that Wardens and Necromancers are superior support specs..

I guess I'm kind of weird in that when I look at a Mag sorc, I say to myself, "Hmm, this is the only magicka spec that has consistently functioned effectively in Cyrodiil. Maybe it has things that other magicka specs ought to emulate" rather than it being akin to the Japanese Proverb that the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. I fail to see how nerfing Streak or Crystal Frag or Hardened Ward is supposed to make say a Magicka Nightblade feel better about the game when going up against a Stamden.

WolfyRaps

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

2 of those stam specs are top tier because of their class kit. Warden and Necro were designed with how ZOs developed the game (namely scandalization of abilities, skills perform specific as opposed to multiple functions, classes designed with "stamina" skills in mind, etc.) rather than how the game was released (in which every skill was magicka, no such thing as stamina based heals, every weapon scaled off weapon damage, etc). The classes that struggle do so because they are squared pegs trying to fit in ZOS's new round hole.

What you write about the general advantage of stamina Vs magicka is true. But even if ZOS goes and improves magicka based gameplay (questionable to begin with), Stamden and Stamcro will still be top tier because their class kits fit ESO's current design and the overall stam kit will still be good. What will happen is that lesser tier stamina specs will be relatively worse and still leave every magicka spec (including sorcs since they're now nerfed) cherry picking options outside their kit, which doesn't get to the heart of the issue: certain classes have poor/obsolete skills and passives.

Wardens’ and Necromancers‘ toolkit is more diverse due to them being newer classes, yes. Stamina skill lines and their class toolkit compliment each other very well, but let’s keep it real, the Stamina toolkit is just better overall. Is there a Stamspec at the moment that is inferior to a Magspec besides Magsorc? I really don’t know, that’s why I ask. My perception is that basically every class in PvP is better off with its Stamina counterpart except Sorcs. But I’m happy if someone updates / educates me on that topic.

I would say there isn't. I would say that a Magplar is more useful in the AvAvA format than a Stamplar, but even then Magplars are overrated because their best helping skill is something that all Stamplars slot and I'd argue that Wardens and Necromancers are superior support specs..

I guess I'm kind of weird in that when I look at a Mag sorc, I say to myself, "Hmm, this is the only magicka spec that has consistently functioned effectively in Cyrodiil. Maybe it has things that other magicka specs ought to emulate" rather than it being akin to the Japanese Proverb that the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. I fail to see how nerfing Streak or Crystal Frag or Hardened Ward is supposed to make say a Magicka Nightblade feel better about the game when going up against a Stamden.

Guys, you are forgetting that one of the top classes in BG at the moment is MagDk, at least from what Ive tested. It does more DPS than any other class exept in some very rare anomaly happends and all teams have healer, get bunched up and azureblight allows some stamsorc to explose the damage meter .

I mainly a magika player, I only enjoy playing stamcro as stamina really, and the only magica spec that I find lacking and much weaker than their stamina counterparts is MagBlade really. But even that might just be a "learn to play" issue because even with Zaan/Calurion I fail the most on that class.

With a well balanced build I feel any mag spec can be on par with their stamina counterpart. In my case I am mostly better on magica characters than on stamina but that might be an experience issue too..

The curent Cyro "stat" meta is a shame for this game and should be forgoten as soon as possible. The classes progress went hand in hand with the evolution of the gear options. You cannot revert one seven years back, keep the other the same and not expect a sorry show of balance...

Cyrdemaceb17_ESO

I would like to repeat my former posting:

Do NOT nerf Sorc, improve other classes to be on par!

I am happy for Sorcs having a class that can be well-tuned without the need for proc sets or be dependent on them but why cripple the only well designed class?
Improve the class skills of the other "lesser" classes to be on the same quality than Sorc.

When you go that way, then I might be thinking about coming back and start giving money again to ZOS.

Jaraal

WolfyRaps wrote: »

The curent Cyro "stat" meta is a shame for this game and should be forgoten as soon as possible. The classes progress went hand in hand with the evolution of the gear options. You cannot revert one seven years back, keep the other the same and not expect a sorry show of balance...

Agreed.

Take away half the game (gear) and expect everything to be balanced? Who ever thought that would happen (besides ZOS)?

Seraphayel

WolfyRaps wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Starshadw wrote: »

So.... what all that sounds like to me, is that you're saying sorcs need a serious rebalancing. If folks absolutely have to have proc sets to be able to be on even footing with mag sorcs, then the problem is the sorcs. I can actually agree with that, as sorcs have always been strong, ever since the game came out. The new CP system was meant to make folks have to choose when it comes to tankiness, dps, healing - is it actually working? It's too early to tell.

This is why I wish we were getting the full six months of no-proc. We need to see how the new CP system affects everything and everyone. If sorcs are still able to dominate despite the new changes in CP and armor, etc., then yes, someone needs to take a look at the class overall and figure out how to bring it into balance with the rest.

That would be a typical move from ZOS and would be in line with their former actions:
1) Check performance in 8 ways - find nothing ==> nerf healing outside groups.
2) Check performance for "proc"-sets - find nothing ==> remove "proc"-sets anyway.
3) Check "no proc" gameplay under a single condition (19 choosen sets) ==> nerf sorc

I hope they think about that a bit further then only around one corner.
I already posted that in another thread, I try it here again:


I just wanna mention something to the claim: "Now you can see sorc are OP".
I would agree to that if we all would run naked now.

But we have some sets - and these sets prefer the sorc.

How would it look (just a very easy example to make it clear) if we all only could use:
1) Burning Spellweave
2) Silks of the Sun
3) Strength of the Automation
4) Ysgramor's Birthright
5) Netch's Touch
6) Light of Cyrodiil
7) Morag Tong
8) Sword-Singer
9) Sword Dancer
10) Spider Cultist Cowl
11) Swamp Raider
12) War Maiden

Really - don't go to much into the details - I just want to point out that MagSorcs are in favour of the current situation, bc of Alfiq and willpower, but that's not necessary a proof that MagSorcs are generally OP. I don't say it is not! I only doubt that this is the proof.

If ZOS had choosen other sets, maybe it would look different...

In addition @Joy_Division postet something simmilar:
Joys Post
(If my english is not worse than I think If I understood that wrong, feel free to correct it @Joy_Division )

Yes, I play a magSorc so I'm definately not neutral, but in my mind the situation in NoCP Cyro was:
- Warden and Necro were above Sorcs.
- Stam vs a bit above Mag
- MagDK and MagNB (magPlar I'm not sure) were the classes which needed the most love...

So I see no reason to nerf sorc - definatly not bc of a biased set situation we have now.
If I see any balancing needed, then to buff the 2-3 mentioned mag classes.

Yeah, people are acting like somehow Sorc is uniquely favorable this patch and I just don;t see it. There are 4 specs that are top tier: Stamblade, Stamden, Stamcro, and mag sorc. I'm not sure how it makes sense to people to go specifically after just one of those, only there because they're not dependent on proc sets, and that will somehow make things better in the next update when so many of these busted sets come back.

Since you mentioned Magplar, yes, the spec is in poor shape because it has by far the worst burst skill (Purifying Light) in a in a high health, high heal meta that requires burst. Not to mention it has the worst defensive skill (Eclipse), which means it has to devote some of its gear to defense. It's like, yeah, I feel outmatched going up against a mag sorc, but this answer to this is not to target that one specific class (and continue to let say Stamdens stomp everything below them), rather to look at why magplar and other specs are not top tier.

It‘s 3 Stamina vs. 1 Magicka build in your example that are strong. The difference here is, the main strength from the Stamina builds doesn’t come inherently from their class toolkit, it comes from Stamina being so strong in general. MagSorc is strong because the class toolkit is so strong and diverse, not because Magicka in general is strong.

I‘m someone who prefers buffing underperforming specs (unless the overperforming specs are so much stronger). The biggest issue of Magicka is the lack of choices and some missing skills outside of classes. Rally is just a better version of Degeneration, Vigor is a better version of most other healing skills, Dizzy Swing is a better spammable than any of the Magicka ones and Executioner is a great execute. On top of that now DW is giving you more stats than a Staff can, which is a major oversight in design.

So what’s the solution? For Magicka, it’s improving the Magicka-centric skill lines for Mage‘s Guild and Destruction Staff (and maybe Psijic). If MagSorc still overperforms, tone it down. Unfortunately I do not expect any kind of adjustment made to stamina as they’re dominating for how many updates in a row now? Six? Seven? Not sure anymore.

2 of those stam specs are top tier because of their class kit. Warden and Necro were designed with how ZOs developed the game (namely scandalization of abilities, skills perform specific as opposed to multiple functions, classes designed with "stamina" skills in mind, etc.) rather than how the game was released (in which every skill was magicka, no such thing as stamina based heals, every weapon scaled off weapon damage, etc). The classes that struggle do so because they are squared pegs trying to fit in ZOS's new round hole.

What you write about the general advantage of stamina Vs magicka is true. But even if ZOS goes and improves magicka based gameplay (questionable to begin with), Stamden and Stamcro will still be top tier because their class kits fit ESO's current design and the overall stam kit will still be good. What will happen is that lesser tier stamina specs will be relatively worse and still leave every magicka spec (including sorcs since they're now nerfed) cherry picking options outside their kit, which doesn't get to the heart of the issue: certain classes have poor/obsolete skills and passives.

Wardens’ and Necromancers‘ toolkit is more diverse due to them being newer classes, yes. Stamina skill lines and their class toolkit compliment each other very well, but let’s keep it real, the Stamina toolkit is just better overall. Is there a Stamspec at the moment that is inferior to a Magspec besides Magsorc? I really don’t know, that’s why I ask. My perception is that basically every class in PvP is better off with its Stamina counterpart except Sorcs. But I’m happy if someone updates / educates me on that topic.

I would say there isn't. I would say that a Magplar is more useful in the AvAvA format than a Stamplar, but even then Magplars are overrated because their best helping skill is something that all Stamplars slot and I'd argue that Wardens and Necromancers are superior support specs..

I guess I'm kind of weird in that when I look at a Mag sorc, I say to myself, "Hmm, this is the only magicka spec that has consistently functioned effectively in Cyrodiil. Maybe it has things that other magicka specs ought to emulate" rather than it being akin to the Japanese Proverb that the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. I fail to see how nerfing Streak or Crystal Frag or Hardened Ward is supposed to make say a Magicka Nightblade feel better about the game when going up against a Stamden.

Guys, you are forgetting that one of the top classes in BG at the moment is MagDk, at least from what Ive tested. It does more DPS than any other class exept in some very rare anomaly happends and all teams have healer, get bunched up and azureblight allows some stamsorc to explose the damage meter .

I mainly a magika player, I only enjoy playing stamcro as stamina really, and the only magica spec that I find lacking and much weaker than their stamina counterparts is MagBlade really. But even that might just be a "learn to play" issue because even with Zaan/Calurion I fail the most on that class.

With a well balanced build I feel any mag spec can be on par with their stamina counterpart. In my case I am mostly better on magica characters than on stamina but that might be an experience issue too..

The curent Cyro "stat" meta is a shame for this game and should be forgoten as soon as possible. The classes progress went hand in hand with the evolution of the gear options. You cannot revert one seven years back, keep the other the same and not expect a sorry show of balance...

What you describe is an effect of proc based PvP. That’s why battlegrounds and Imperial City are not a good way to measure strengths and weaknesses of classes / builds and talk about balance.

No proc Cyrodiil is the only place were strengths and weaknesses are revealed and that’s what really matters in this discussion about balance as everything boils down to how classes play. Proc sets diffuse and distract from what classes are capable of. Proc sets at best should compliment classes and not make or break them as it’s the case (and as you said multiple times when you stated that many Magicka builds without proc sets are not competitive).

Classes, weapons and skill lines must be balanced before/without proc sets come into play, after/with.