Why the hate against pve tank mains?

ForzaRammer

I truly don’t understand.

Tanks received a minor buff to damage taken.
Problem is this is after a major nerf.
Tanks were still better pre markarth when minor maim was 15% and major protection was 25%.

Mag sustain is only slightly nerfed.
But the markarth patch was a major buff.
So no complain about mag sustain from me.

The real nerf this patch is stam sustain.
Block cost is significantly increased.
Roll dodge cost is significantly increased.

Honestly I don’t mind the roll dodge increase cost. And there is a slottable skill to get a free roll dodge every 30 seconds.

The block cost increase is truly annoying. 600+ per block is just insane.

Here is my suggestions, may or may not work.
1. 80 flat reduction cp -> 4%, 4x the effect in trials dungeon arena
2. Buff sturdy 4 -> 5.5%
3. Just change multiplicative stacking to additive stacking.

amm7sb14_ESO

Because this game and its community cater to DPS exclusively. That's why tanks aren't even allowed to wear the sets that are designed for them, because we are just expected to roll the sets that DPS can't be bothered to.

Bradyfjord

I'm still trying to process the changes. I need to give it a week first.

ForzaRammer

Tank need to be the lazy role for low apm players who want to succeed. Not hardest job ever. Plz zos. Let me perma block in trials the way i am supposed to.

ForzaRammer

Oh and heavy attack seems to restore less stam too.

DreadDaedroth

Because otherway you'd hear pvp players complain about tanky builds so even minimal things like aw Thurvokun set damage get nerfed.

SimonBelmont

This is Harry Potter Online, didn't anyone tell you? If you're not running around swinging two staves, you're fodder for those who are! And you better not miss any blocks while tanking Harry's dungeon run either, or you'll be ridiculed and kicked from the group! Isn't tanking awesome? I can toootally see why tanks are so abundant!

Daemonai

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Tank need to be the lazy role for low apm players who want to succeed. Not hardest job ever. Plz zos. Let me perma block in trials the way i am supposed to.

Edit: You should probably put a /s. Poe's Law and all that lol

All they need to do is give heavy armor the block cost reduction they inexplicably gave to medium armor. It makes no sense.

Sangwyne

I have absolutely no idea why the armor penalties weren't implemented through Battle Spirit. Who even cares in PvE if someone in light armor has cheaper block cost or takes less physical damage? Who is complaining about tanks being able to sneak around in Heavy armor or sprint as fast as everyone else? If anything, I would think DPS in dungeons would WANT their tanks to be faster so that they can rush to the next group of adds more quickly rather than having to wait around for them to catch up, or to take less magic damage so that the tank doesn't die and the boss starts focusing on them. This was strictly a set of nerfs aimed at PvP with no thought in mind whatsoever as to how they would impact PvE.

Daemonai wrote: »

All they need to do is give heavy armor the block cost reduction they inexplicably gave to medium armor. It makes no sense.

Agreed, ZOS mentioned Medium armor had no penalties because its bonuses weren't "as sharp", but then why does Medium have more bonuses than Heavy?? Heavy has the fewest bonuses AND the most penalties, and Heavy armor would naturally absorb more of the force of the blow than Medium, it's absurd that Medium gets the tanking passive. I smell favoritism, Light also got nerfed but Medium gets to have their cake and eat everyone else's too.

amm7sb14_ESO

Sangwyne wrote: »

I smell favoritism, Light also got nerfed but Medium gets to have their cake and eat everyone else's too.

Like I said, ZOS and the community cater to DPS builds. Everybody else just needs to get out of DPS-way and get in line.

renne

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

I smell favoritism, Light also got nerfed but Medium gets to have their cake and eat everyone else's too.

Like I said, ZOS and the community cater to DPS builds. Everybody else just needs to get out of DPS-way and get in line.

You spelled 'stam builds in PvP' wrong.

Starlight_Whisper

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because this game and its community cater to DPS exclusively. That's why tanks aren't even allowed to wear the sets that are designed for them, because we are just expected to roll the sets that DPS can't be bothered to.

Yep supports are slaves to dps not to mention often left out in event design. Then there's let's change something and forget how to balance it for support

Neiska

I can +1 for what feels like the tank hate. After a few random dungies and my dailies, my thoughts -

1. It costs more to block now. Block feels more effective, but costs more to do so.
2. It takes nearly 25% of my stamina bar to dodge. Which forces me to stay above half whenever possible. So I am stuck heavy attacking, taunting every 10 seconds. Never mind managing buffs/debuffs/damage shields. Because any unblockable attack is likely a magical one, and is going to really ring my bell if I don't dodge it.
3. I run slower now, which is even slower compared to dps setups like wardens and sorcerers who are miles ahead of me. In one dungeon the only combat I really saw at all was when they paused for the boss.
4. I keep getting a "stuck camera" bug where my camera was frozen in place during a fight. I watched myself run "off screen" during a fight. This has happened 3 times, and I suspect its related to block or armor 5 pc bonus procs. I am currently wearing leeching and crimson.

Honestly this has reduced my interactive gameplay from juggling buffs, debuffs, taunting, to just heavy attacking and watching my stamina bar in case a magical attack comes. And this is coming from someone who was a tank fan across multiple games, this is by far the worst incarnation I have experienced. At least before I could do interesting things, but now I am nothing more but a taunt/dodge/block bot, and that's it. Because god help you now if you are wearing all heavy armor and lack enough stamina to dodge an unblockable magical attack that's gonna hit you for 40k and your healer is lagging or a bit slow.

Feels like an impressively bad patch, and I am contemplating hanging up my sword and shield, at least for awhile. The stamina costs are ridiculous. And after speaking to a few other co-tank friends, I am not the only one. I would love to know who was making the argument that pve tanks just had it too good and needed resource nerfs.

Starlight_Whisper

Neiska wrote: »

I can +1 for what feels like the tank hate. After a few random dungies and my dailies, my thoughts -

1. It costs more to block now. Block feels more effective, but costs more to do so.
2. It takes nearly 25% of my stamina bar to dodge. Which forces me to stay above half whenever possible. So I am stuck heavy attacking, taunting every 10 seconds. Never mind managing buffs/debuffs/damage shields. Because any unblockable attack is likely a magical one, and is going to really ring my bell if I don't dodge it.
3. I run slower now, which is even slower compared to dps setups like wardens and sorcerers who are miles ahead of me. In one dungeon the only combat I really saw at all was when they paused for the boss.
4. I keep getting a "stuck camera" bug where my camera was frozen in place during a fight. I watched myself run "off screen" during a fight. This has happened 3 times, and I suspect its related to block or armor 5 pc bonus procs. I am currently wearing leeching and crimson.

Honestly this has reduced my interactive gameplay from juggling buffs, debuffs, taunting, to just heavy attacking and watching my stamina bar in case a magical attack comes. And this is coming from someone who was a tank fan across multiple games, this is by far the worst incarnation I have experienced. At least before I could do interesting things, but now I am nothing more but a taunt/dodge/block bot, and that's it. Because god help you now if you are wearing all heavy armor and lack enough stamina to dodge an unblockable magical attack that's gonna hit you for 40k and your healer is lagging or a bit slow.

Feels like an impressively bad patch, and I am contemplating hanging up my sword and shield, at least for awhile. The stamina costs are ridiculous. And after speaking to a few other co-tank friends, I am not the only one. I would love to know who was making the argument that pve tanks just had it too good and needed resource nerfs.

Impressively bad patch for support roles

MalEducado

The ppl cry cause they have to queue 60minutes to find a tank... Instead to make the more lovely , they punishing the tanks.

Neiska

MalEducado wrote: »

The ppl cry cause they have to queue 60minutes to find a tank... Instead to make the more lovely , they punishing the tanks.

I would expect longer wait times. My new warden is looking awfully good right about now. Someone else can deal with the stamina, the damage, the 1 shot mechanics, the random pug shenanigans, the pvp stuff, the restricted trial slots.

Starlight_Whisper

MalEducado wrote: »

The ppl cry cause they have to queue 60minutes to find a tank... Instead to make the more lovely , they punishing the tanks.

Not that far but it's definitely gotten a lot worst over the years. Now I wait 5 to 15 mins on a healer for a dungeon

ccfeeling

You play the game for fun , isn't it ?

Why you keep your customers unhappy , I have no idea .

Kurat

You can thank pvp cry threads about unkillable tanks for this.

Neiska

Kurat wrote: »

You can thank pvp cry threads about unkillable tanks for this.

Gonna have a random hunch they will see less tanks like they wanted, but possibly less people in pvp in general. And everyone else? Longer tank cues. Just a wild shot in the dark here. Contemplating turning my tank main into my scrying pc. No idea what I'm going to play now with things being what they are. Patch is so good it's making people not want to play their mains.

etchedpixels

Doing a bit more experimenting - all the DPS just got a health boost so you can drop the 5th piece of ebon and run ring of the wild hunt as one option until they unbreak the heavy armour mess.

ForzaRammer

Kurat wrote: »

You can thank pvp cry threads about unkillable tanks for this.

I legit don’t see why unkillable tank is a problem.

Those 50k hp warden don’t do dmg, they just pull u for fall dmg.

The reflect necro only do dmg when you attack them, otherwise they are harmless.

The real problem are the ones that does a lot dmg also heal a lot, they gave up too little offence to achieve a lot defence.

The solution should be make more heals health scaling, not nerfing pve tank, just change warden tree, templar heal ult, nightblade tether. If zos feel real spicy, go change vigor to health scaling too.

Artemis_X_

Sadly I suspect there is so little feedback on the forums from tanks, not because they like this patch, but because there just are so few left.

Majkiy

Let me give you a feedback as a main tank who have several trifectas in dungeons and few HMs in trials.

The new CP is a bomb. Ton more HP, 75% damage mitigation in block and more stam/mag/health regen. I am like 1120 CP, so nowhere near to optimal CP optimalization, but even that I didn't had a single problem with resources. I usually wear sets to buff my DDs. So for example in dungeons with my group of friends I use yolnak, now the new behemoth monster set and galenwe if with healer. Olorime + vateshran void bash if 3DDs. In trials our group uses now the new Behemoth, Yolnak, Worm/Galenwe. Possibly going to try the Assault/Yolank + MK.

In dungeons I had zero problem with sustain even on 3dds, so zero support for a tank.

Instead of a tri-stat food now I use two-stat food (magicka + stamina, no regen) and still no issues. If you have any issue, you can use stam+ stam regen kind of food I guess (you won't regen any stam in block tho).

Anyway, I am happy with the changes to the tank. I don't feel useless or like I am dying all the time to the sustain or so. To add I am playing Nord and DK. Nord has been nerfed with the resistances and even after that I am at cap with spell resist and around 28-29k on physical resist. With the buff of course.

So in my opinion I don't think tanks should struggle nor there is a hate towards tanks from ZOS. I think that tanks now are in better place than before Markarth.

If I should think of one bad reason I might agree that the block/dodge cost is pretty high, yes, but new CPs make it better. With the free roll every 30s and some block/dodge stam cost reduce.

So don't immediately assume there is a hate towards tanks if you didn't even try to make it work or set up your CPs correctly. If you are not a good tank to begin with than that is a problem too, if you didn't tank enough content to know exactly, what your character needs or how things work. As a tank you have to HA a lot to regen stam, usually one after every enemy HA.

I am happy with the changes.

UntilValhalla13

I just want to know how bad it is to main tank vka hm on the bottom floor after all of these changes. Our group has finally been getting to him, and we still have a week before this hits console.

kemleb17_ESO

After such an update, I just want to stop playing with the tank.

DreadDaedroth

There's people happy that tanks have to be slower and not as stealthy so if that's not scadenfraude....

Brrrofski

Kurat wrote: »

You can thank pvp cry threads about unkillable tanks for this.

The thing is, heavy armor is a problem in pvp. It's not pvp players fault that ZOS can't balance it properly. As honestly, these changes may not even shift away the heavy meta. What is more likely to, is the set restrictions in place.

The issue currently was heavy, health based healing bad proc sets. This has in a very hammer type fashion been resolved.

The issue before that, was that some of the best damage sets, especially for stam, where heavy sets.

Most of PVP players have for a long time been saying to just add a penalty that reduces your damage output in heavy. This would stop some of the issues in pvp, and have little effect to pve tanking (outside of some damage tank hybrids like I myself use, but that's a very small amount).

Either way, the issue with heavy in pvp was survivability and damage output. Nobody cares about tanky troll players that did nothing. Either of these things would go a lot of the way towards it.

No procs mean things like damage, sustain and survivability needs to be balanced.

Reducing damage while in heavy would mean people have to choose between being a super tank and have incredible burst, which hasn't been the case for a long time.

Also, it's not all pvp.

Let's not ignore that fact that a LOT of people run new hardmode vet dungeons and the 4 man arenas on vet with 1 tank and 3 dps. I think there's a bit of an issue there as well to be fair.

If you want an idea how ZOS take valid, concerned feedback and answer it with the most random changes is the sneak one. Increasing sneak cost and detection radius while in heavy is nothing to do with PvP lol. There is definitely no complaints about an epidemic of sneaking tanks in Cyrodiil haha.

Neiska

Brrrofski wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

You can thank pvp cry threads about unkillable tanks for this.

The thing is, heavy armor is a problem in pvp. It's not pvp players fault that ZOS can't balance it properly. As honestly, these changes may not even shift away the heavy meta. What is more likely to, is the set restrictions in place.

The issue currently was heavy, health based healing bad proc sets. This has in a very hammer type fashion been resolved.

The issue before that, was that some of the best damage sets, especially for stam, where heavy sets.

Most of PVP players have for a long time been saying to just add a penalty that reduces your damage output in heavy. This would stop some of the issues in pvp, and have little effect to pve tanking (outside of some damage tank hybrids like I myself use, but that's a very small amount).

Either way, the issue with heavy in pvp was survivability and damage output. Nobody cares about tanky troll players that did nothing. Either of these things would go a lot of the way towards it.

No procs mean things like damage, sustain and survivability needs to be balanced.

Reducing damage while in heavy would mean people have to choose between being a super tank and have incredible burst, which hasn't been the case for a long time.

Also, it's not all pvp.

Let's not ignore that fact that a LOT of people run new hardmode vet dungeons and the 4 man arenas on vet with 1 tank and 3 dps. I think there's a bit of an issue there as well to be fair.

If you want an idea how ZOS take valid, concerned feedback and answer it with the most random changes is the sneak one. Increasing sneak cost and detection radius while in heavy is nothing to do with PvP lol. There is definitely no complaints about an epidemic of sneaking tanks in Cyrodiil haha.

Have to respectfully but strongly disagree here.

Overnight I went from soloing a world boss, to getting 1 shot by that same world boss. Pretty much the only people I have seen say "this is fine" (insert meme here) are the high cp folks. For those of us in the 200-300 range, our entire gameplay changed overnight. And balancing the entire game around the top end folks and the PvP community is bad design. I mean, just going to take a wild guess in the dark here and say that's what, 5-10% of the game/community? THATS what they balanced the entire game around? From where I sit, everything is already designed with the DPS in mind already.

Soloing as a tank was a slog to begin with. And this isn't going to help matters. My level 30 sorc in a full set of greens can spam heavy attack and finish quests faster than my group and trial geared tank can. How in any way is that a good thing and fair/balanced game design.

Just what exactly did these changes "fix"? Or "make better?" I went from having enough stamina to throw in buffs and debuffs, to having to spam heavy attack, block, dodge, and sneaking in a taunt when I could. Its very close to not having enough stamina to throw in the other things expected of me. These changes feel like they were done by different dev teams, and its a case of the left hand not speaking to the right. Individually? These changes weren't so bad. But together? Man, I don't even recognize my own character anymore.

In what world is making things harder for an already demanding and rarely played role, "better?" Because I am honestly considering hanging up my shield after this, and I am not the only one. I had 3 tanks on my friends list go "I'm out." This entire patch feels like a big middle finger. Now tanks are supposed to have thick skin, I get that. Been a die hard tank fan across multiple games now. But after this change I went from being a defensive support role, to a stamina obsessed taunt bot.

I am weaker, have less resources, and less buffs/debuffs to offer my group. And its not a question of "get good" or gear. It makes me wonder what they were thinking at whatever meeting they had when someone said "tanks have it just too good, just look at how many people play them."

Not going to lie, definitely going to be looking up solo builds today. Tanking was already a thankless chore to begin with. If you solo as a tank you are just punishing yourself here. No matter how you slice it, from a tank perspective unless you were in the top 5%, these changes was a ridiculous and un-needed nerf.

My two cents, for whatever its worth. Not that I expect it will do any good. Highly doubt anyone on staff is reading or paying attention.

GlorphNoldorin

The devs surely dont play tanks in pve.

Heavy armour tank in pvp isnt a problem anymore than proc sets and ball groups but of any of that...... lag and bugs are way worse. Somehow devs think stuff that isnt a problem is a problem......because they dont play their own game at any significant level.

The devs are stubborn for what ever reason, they wont balance pvp separately, never have, never will.

If they didnt build so much one shot mechanics in pve then maybe it would be worth using healers in most 4 man hm content.

As usual its bad design as the root cause ending up with misguided nerfing. Nothing new here.

I main a pve tank, completed all hm trifectas, and will find a way to make it work but it must be no fun for beginners or people who dont play as seriously.

What am I saying, its way less fun now to tank....what with the puncture bug, inner rage bug, block cast time drops and any of the other bugs and now more cost increases etc......ye really good time to be a tank.

BlueRaven

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

Sadly I suspect there is so little feedback on the forums from tanks, not because they like this patch, but because there just are so few left.

There was feedback, generally of the “let’s make life even worse for tanks” variety.

Specifically they wanted heavy armor to also do less damage on top of everything else.