Map layouts in Vvardenfell are too complex, even for experienced players

Athan1

It's great how someone posts to complain about something they have trouble with and many players go "whhaa are you stupid or what, git gud noob". Thanks guys, you're great

LannStone

I don't think anything should be changed except to advise new players not to start in Vvardenfell. I started there because I started with the Morrowind expansion but greatly wish I had learned the ropes in another zone first and came back to Vvardenfell when I was more experienced. I managed to complete all the quests and all the map before moving on, but constantly getting lost and running into dead ends was quite frustrating at times, especially when you're trying to level up your character. Now it's easy to figure out what's going on, but it's not a good place to start the game. It would be nice if ZOS explained that in the tutorial (or if they did, I missed it).

Psiion

Greetings,

After removing and editing a few posts for Baiting, we would like to remind everyone that while disagreements are natural, we want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. Please keep the Forum's Community Rules in mind when posting or replying.

GenjiraX

Flamebait wrote: »

One of the real issues I noticed also in the zone is the number of actual invisible walls, you can normally go pretty much anywhere in most zones, but in Vvardenfell there are places where you can go up a hill and then it just pushes you back since the way they intend you to enter that area is off to a side somewhere. Never been a fan of invisible walls in games though that might just be a me thing.

Do you not think Reaper's March is worse? I hate Reaper's March for its invisible walls. Bad design, IMCO.

Athan1

The_Lex wrote: »

Old school RPGs/MMORPGs:

No compass markers; no direct routes; unclear maps and directions that require quite a bit of thought and time; asking numerous NPCs for “clues” on how to solve a puzzle or get directions; zero hand—holding; aggroing and fighting mobs on the way to and from objectives; no cash shops for short cuts in character development, zone progression, cosmetics, or consumables; etc, etc.

Purpose: the fun was in trying figuring out the quest. You got a sense of accomplishment from solving the complexity. It was a forced immersion into the world. You “became” your character.

Modern RPGs/MMORPGs:

Compass and quest markers galore; clear and distinctive routes with minimal interference as long as you stay right on the main roads; maps and directions provide fairly clear and straightforward directions to objectives; no overly complicated puzzles, lots of hand-holding; cash shops which can provide short cuts in character development, cosmetics, zone progression, or consumables; etc, etc.

Purpose: the fun is clearing the zone and finishing all the quest objectives quickly and easily. You get a sense of accomplishment when all quest markers disappear and the journal is empty. World immersion is on you, not forced on you.

EDIT: I grew up on the old school RPG. But, I acknowledge that the modern method ensures more revenue to the developers. Not making a judgment call...just a statement.

Great analysis, thanks for the summary! Indeed society, norms, and the industry have changed a lot in the past 20 years.

Nairinhe

Athan1 wrote: »

It's great how someone posts to complain about something they have trouble with and many players go "whhaa are you stupid or what, git gud noob". Thanks guys, you're great

Well, there's "guys, I have trouble with this, what do I do?" and then there's "waaaaahh, this content is too difficult, it's bad, make it simpler". See the difference?

MacCait

Lol I ALWAYS get lost in Vvardenfell... in Wrothgar city too lol

SeaGtGruff

It's all a question of familiarity, just as in getting around a city or countryside in real life.

I used to get lost in Daggerfall, Wayrest, and other cities when I first started to visit them; but once I started spending much time there from day to day, their layouts eventually clicked in my head and now they're no trouble at all to navigate.

It's the same with Northern Elsweyr; I used to get lost trying to use the map to reach the dragons, because I kept getting off of the road at the wrong places and running into impassable rock walls or gorges. But now when I see a dragon heading toward the SE or SW landing areas it's much easier to reach them in tme because I know exactly which wayshrine to port to and when to turn off of the road. (Okay, I don't always reach them before they get killed by everyone who's already there; but I no longer get lost trying to reach them in time.)

As for Vivec City and the placement of the quest NPCs, I initially found it strange that the NPCs who actually give the quests aren't the same ones you turn the quests in to. But I guess it makes sense, since the NPCs in the Hall of Justice are basically just middlemen. You might think that, as middlemen, they'd be the people who reward you, the way Guybert Flaubert does in Southern Elsweyr, or just like any other quest-giving job broker who's giving out jobs on behalf of other people. But I guess Lord Vivec doesn't want his people doing that sort of thing.

Mik195

I don't think I've ever managed to find the road into Aldurun. I always gave up and wayshrined in.

zelaminator

Someone let the necromancers out again

Milchbart

Araneae6537 wrote: »

You never played TES III, did you? Besides additional pyramids, I believe there was an additional lower level too. I sympathize that it can be difficult to find what you’re looking for, but I’m glad they kept so much of the look and feel of Vvardenfell!

The sewers ... with a lot of quests. you could really get lost in there but nevertheless I liked it.

Its_MySniff

I think N.Elsweyr is so much worse. However, it is an issue of familiarity, as was mentioned. The more you race through vvardenfell, the more you'll see it isn't that complicated. As far as Elsweyr goes, that litterbox can stay foreign, good riddance to bad zones. My humble opinion of course.

SeaGtGruff

zelaminator wrote: »

Someone let the necromancers out again

Uh, oh, my bad! I had a tab in my iPad Safari browser with this thread saved on it, to remind myself of some information about TES3:Morrowind that someone posted. When I opened Safari, somehow I selected that tab and thought I was replying to something someone else had just posted.

Its_MySniff

It's only a few months old, hardly necroed. Good on ya SeaGtGruff.

Ippokrates

And remember that in Vvardenfell Necromancy has not been fully banished, so it is ok ^^

Castagere

Araneae6537 wrote: »

You never played TES III, did you? Besides additional pyramids, I believe there was an additional lower level too. I sympathize that it can be difficult to find what you’re looking for, but I’m glad they kept so much of the look and feel of Vvardenfell!

I loved hanging out in Vivec. I would spend so much time in Joshua's rare books shop reading. Sure at first it felt like a maze but later you find the layout was really easy.

Supreme_Atromancer

ESO copped so much flak early on for having delves that were overly simple and boring. I really empathise with their struggle to make everyone happy with this.

I think the problem is trying to appease two very different types of player: if you want to race in and get the things on the checklist ticked off so you can race through to the next thing, complex maps are going to be frustrating. Not even disparaging anyone - MANY people play this way.

If new maps are an opportunity for exploration and gameplay in themselves, you don't want them to be rushed. You want them to be interesting and engaging, with some complexity. Taking your time and getting lost and engaging your brain is very much part of the experience.

I personally love Vivec City, the delves, and the public dungeons, and how much effort they've put into them since Orsinium. Each one is beautifully crafted and honestly a lot of fun to explore. You can feel the love and care that's gone into crafting them.

In the case of Vvardenfell, there's already a lot we hoped to explore that got cut down. I get it, because after I've explored them, when I'm levelling new characters or whatever, I just want the grindy bits done as fast as possible and any sort of barrier to that is just frustrating. But I wont complain because for me, there's only so much you can sacrifice to the demands of fast and efficient grind before the game loses all soul and it becomes too apparent that its just a button-clicking simulator.

Its_MySniff

I think another complaint is quest markers. You know, go in one door, markers move and so on. It really comes down to assimilation and understanding the little bugs that are part of the game. It's almost like trying pvp for a day and assuming that is the entirety of that situation. Look around, slow down, and take in the surroundings. That is as simple as Eso will be. I do wish you all good fortune.