Race change token

CleymenZero

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Foolebuilt_33 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The racial passive changes in this patch are tiny compared to the changes when they gave out free tokens. Those changes were a major overhaul, while the current changes are basically just balancing, with some additional tweaks to make hybrids more viable.

If ZOS were in the habit of giving change tokens in response to every minor balance adjustment, we would have had class change tokens (which I'm actually against) ages ago.

What do you mean lol meta pre elsewyr was orc for stam and high elf for mag that stayed the same and they were alloted race change tokens now its swapping up where khajiit is parsing higher for mag and dark elf for stam thats much different than when we previously got them

Before the free race change tokens, Dark Elf was a flame damage specialist, Khajiit was pure stamina, Bosmer were the stealth race, Orcs were more tank than DPS, and all of the racial buffs were percentage-based. Those are all gigantic changes compared to the current numerical tweaks to the effectiveness of individual passives.

Sure, the nord armor buff is going to be smaller in the upcoming patch, but it's still an armor buff. The same applies to all of the upcoming changes other than the effective merger of spell and weapon damage (which only serves to make hybrids more viable, because both of the affected races still favor the same stat they did before).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21

I think it's a misconceptuon to think that there needs to be magnitude of a specific level to justify awarding tokens.

I think it's the principle that's important here.

Prior to the first racial changes, you made the choices you made based on the passives. With the first series of changes, they recognized that, had passives been what they were becoming, you would've made different choices. In evaluating the circumstances, they decided giving tokens was a legitimate remediation.

With those changes, as little as they may be, there is still the same issue that arises. The changes are such that I absolutely wouldn't have swapped my stamina characters to orcs. Absolutely not.

So in essence, it's the exact same scenario only the magnitude has changed.

Sangwyne

[Snip]
Wouldn't be surprised if they were to hold a sale on race change tokens immediately following the upcoming patch, but as it stands right now I think it's highly unlikely they actually give out free race change tokens, it's simply too promising an opportunity to pass up. A shame, because I'd probably swap my Nord Dragonknight to an Imperial Dragonknight; the extra 3% reduction in skill cost that Imperials gain next patch applies to ultimates as well, meaning Imperials have far better sustain, max health, and damage than Nords while also having comparable ultimate uptime. Oh well.

[Edited for bashing]

Kurat

Why should we get race change tokens, nothing changed. Some races got small nerfs but their place relative to others remained the same.

ThePedge

Sangwyne wrote: »

[Snip]
Wouldn't be surprised if they were to hold a sale on race change tokens immediately following the upcoming patch, but as it stands right now I think it's highly unlikely they actually give out free race change tokens, it's simply too promising an opportunity to pass up. A shame, because I'd probably swap my Nord Dragonknight to an Imperial Dragonknight; the extra 3% reduction in skill cost that Imperials gain next patch applies to ultimates as well, meaning Imperials have far better sustain, max health, and damage than Nords while also having comparable ultimate uptime. Oh well.

They were on sale like the week before the PTS came out, 20% off iirc.

I took that as a sign to buy a couple.

Wolfpaw

How long before racials need to be "balanced" again you think?

Real balance is remove combat stats from racials, and add lore specific non-combat perks.

Or give every race the same combat stats, & lore specific non-combat perks.

Pallio

If they don't want anyone to change races then they won't give out any or sale at discount. Odd since they made changes, yet they are too insignificant to be worth using? Or they know people will pay full price anyway.

furiouslog

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Foolebuilt_33 wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Possibly not because playerbase was to quiet with concerns about racial changes in upcoming update. Keep in mind that when last time ZoS introduced racial overhaul 2 years ago they were not planning to compensate that to people and it was community outrage that forced then to give us 3 racial changes for free.

Yeah I remember when elsewyr dropped we got race change tokens that's why I was wondering if we would this patch with the big race changes again

Rightfully i think we should, but who can deny the profit ZOS will make from selling tokens.

perhaps if there's a wave of outrage post launch?

Outrage seems to have little effect on their actions these days.

VoidCommander

Kurat wrote: »

Why should we get race change tokens, nothing changed. Some races got small nerfs but their place relative to others remained the same.

Not true at all. A bunch of people have made orcs for stam dps because it was bis, despite 90% of orc players wanting to play literally any other race aesthetically.

Next patch, dark elves will actually be the top meta for stamina dps by having an extra 925 stamina compared to orcs, leaving the entire stamina dps meta players with no way to switch unless zos does the right, ethical thing and gives them some free tokens, they fork over $30 PER CHARACTER, or they quit the game since at that point it would be obvious zos doesn’t see its playerbase as anything more than a bunch of dumb sheep who can be fooled into buying race change tokens when zos forces a meta change.

Juhasow

Kurat wrote: »

Why should we get race change tokens, nothing changed. Some races got small nerfs but their place relative to others remained the same.

For stam DDs and tanks , place of certain races relative to others changed a lot. Also it's worth to mention that due to changes to racial passives providing weapon and spell dmg now high elf will be viable option for stam DDs and orc will be viable for mag DDs. For example in enviroment with good sustain orc can beat breton as mag DD and high elf can beat redguard as stam DD. For tanks Imperial will overthrone nord and argonian.

Juhasow

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why should we get race change tokens, nothing changed. Some races got small nerfs but their place relative to others remained the same.

Not true at all. A bunch of people have made orcs for stam dps because it was bis, despite 90% of orc players wanting to play literally any other race aesthetically.

Next patch, dark elves will actually be the top meta for stamina dps by having an extra 925 stamina compared to orcs, leaving the entire stamina dps meta players with no way to switch unless zos does the right, ethical thing and gives them some free tokens, they fork over $30 PER CHARACTER, or they quit the game since at that point it would be obvious zos doesn’t see its playerbase as anything more than a bunch of dumb sheep who can be fooled into buying race change tokens when zos forces a meta change.

Actually not only dunmer but also khajiit is ahead of orc as stam DD. In certain scenarios khajit is also beating dunmer. it's worth to keep in mind though that we're talking about small differences here. The difference between number 1 and number 4 race for stam can be within 1-2% DPS margin.

VoidCommander

Juhasow wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why should we get race change tokens, nothing changed. Some races got small nerfs but their place relative to others remained the same.

Not true at all. A bunch of people have made orcs for stam dps because it was bis, despite 90% of orc players wanting to play literally any other race aesthetically.

Next patch, dark elves will actually be the top meta for stamina dps by having an extra 925 stamina compared to orcs, leaving the entire stamina dps meta players with no way to switch unless zos does the right, ethical thing and gives them some free tokens, they fork over $30 PER CHARACTER, or they quit the game since at that point it would be obvious zos doesn’t see its playerbase as anything more than a bunch of dumb sheep who can be fooled into buying race change tokens when zos forces a meta change.

Actually not only dunmer but also khajiit is ahead of orc as stam DD. In certain scenarios khajit is also beating dunmer. it's worth to keep in mind though that we're talking about small differences here. The difference between number 1 and number 4 race for stam can be within 1-2% DPS margin.

True the difference is small, but it isn’t fair to players who have spent dozens of hours creating characters from the ground up with the assumption that their chosen race’s passives were the most suited for them.

Take this hypothetical scenario. After this patch, everyone forks over hundreds of dollars worth of crowns to change their races to the new min-max template. They settle in, get comfortable, the next chapter is released, everyone has feel good vibes. Then, with the release of the next dungeon dlc, zos switches up the class passives again, making Redguard the new meta stam dps race, and suddenly bosmer are the new great tanks for sunspire because they have constant major evasion! All the players now have to fork over hundreds of dollars to change all their characters. Do this over and over again and zos makes a killing.

This is why we, as a community, cannot let them do this to us EVEN ONCE. They tried to get away with it the first time, and only providing 3 tokens back then was still not sufficient. Now it seems they are confident that they will get away with it completely by distracting us with the first cp rework in over 4 years. As it gets closer to monday, these forums better be chalk full of players demanding answers about their deserved race change tokens.

Scardan

Juhasow wrote: »

The difference between number 1 and number 4 race for stam can be within 1-2% DPS margin.

The WHOLE 1%.

VoidCommander

Scardan wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The difference between number 1 and number 4 race for stam can be within 1-2% DPS margin.

The WHOLE 1%.

What is zos just started selling “buff auras” in the crown store? You pay them $30, and they permanently give you a 2% increase in damage? There would be no other way to get this buff using conventional mechanics for your character.

That is basically what these racial passives are doing. Does anyone truly need the 2% boost? Probably not, but it is a matter of bad business ethics. They are creating a pay to win environment by altering the racial meta just enough to actually change it, but not quite enough to create enough of a wave of backlash from the majority of the playerbase.

This is why I’m awake at almost 3 in the morning trying to help people realize why not providing race change token is morally wrong on zos’s part. Its not a matter of entitlement, in fact, its a matter of being completely powerless to control whether the race I chose continues to have the best passives I need for my chosen role. Fact is, the only powers we as players have are our voice, and our money, and zos seems perfectly content with exploiting the second.

Pallio

It almost seems like there is a bait and switch every patch, Warden was awesome, then it wasn't, Necro was awesome, then it wasn't. Orc was awesome, then it wasn't. Kind of a pattern here, even for people slow on the up take like me.

katorga

It is funny after all the discussion about racial passives, who won, who lost....every FoA parse video is Khajiit, Khajiit, Khajiit.

Pallio

Khajit is the new Orc.

MashmalloMan

Whats funny is I've wanted to play Khajiit for awhile, I've always liked the idea of a crit build and they've got well rounded stats to play however you like, but Orc's were just so much better so I chose to play an ugly race for better pve dps 2 years ago.

Now that I'm in a position to change because of what they've done this patch, I'm hesitant to do so because of 2 reasons:

1. This feels like the exact outcome a large business corporation would want, a minor change they can write off as not large enough so as to provide 0 compensation, yet earn a large profit margin and even have players defend their changes as if the larger corporation actually cares about what they think (as seen in this thread alone). I was smart enough to hoard 2-3 tokens when they were on sale, but at the end of the day, it's still my money I've spent at one time or another and they've put me in a position where I feel bad about my decision to play as an Orc.
2. Who's to say they won't see 90% of their pve player base switch to Khajiit and in 2 patches say... well we tried to lower sources of crit because it was dominating pve in U29 and now every player in pve for magicka and stamina is using Khajiit so clearly they're over performing. We chose to nerf them to even out the races.

Now I'm out 2 tokens (3 because I changed from Redguard to Orc in Wrathstone) for only 1 character because they can do whatever they please and apparently have people defend their actions AND lack of inaction. To change the 1 character in the past 2 years is 4500 crowns or what... 30-40 dollars?

I'm sorry, but do you know how much it costs them to give each player even 1 free race change token? Absolutely nothing.

What it does cost them is potential profits for the players willing to fork over the 10-20 dollars to buy a token. So why as a community would we defend this practice?

trackdemon5512

Go back to what they did with the Wrathstone update and look at what changes were implemented. This was also when ZOS said no further CP increases.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

Note that many of the changes were done for role playing reasons in addition to providing balanced utility amongst each. Some races like Khajiit were distinctly at a competitive disadvantage compared to others. The overhaul was huge and as such got the race change tokens gifted.


Now look at the current patch changes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559360/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-0#latest

Take note of the line:

“ Slightly adjusted some Racial Passives now that Champion Points have been reworked, and a few standards within our set bonus efficiency system have changed. For simplicity's sake, we have listed the final rank adjustments of each passive, rather than each rank's adjustment.”

This is to mean that champion points are to make up in any real deficiencies while the rest of the changes are regular nerfs within the course of evolving play.

If you shift races every patch for optimal combat then ZOS doesn’t care. The race of a character doesn’t really matter to you because you don’t associate it with your character’s identity for role play sake. It’s interchangeable and simply utility to you. Gifting you a token is pointless because next patch you’ll just race change again.

But for those players to whom race really mattered to their type of play, that is why we were gifted race change tokens in the past. For those player to continue their fantasies. With the rest of us, asking for free race change tokens is like begging for free stuff every quarter.

kapachia

Wolfpaw wrote: »

How long before racials need to be "balanced" again you think?

Real balance is remove combat stats from racials, and add lore specific non-combat perks.

Or give every race the same combat stats, & lore specific non-combat perks.

That makes no sense. How do you propose that hulky Orcs gets same physical attribute compare to scrawny little wood elves? Or "Me strong" mumbling dim witted Orcs gets same intellect attribute compare to mystical high elves?

CleymenZero

kapachia wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

How long before racials need to be "balanced" again you think?

Real balance is remove combat stats from racials, and add lore specific non-combat perks.

Or give every race the same combat stats, & lore specific non-combat perks.

That makes no sense. How do you propose that hulky Orcs gets same physical attribute compare to scrawny little wood elves? Or "Me strong" mumbling dim witted Orcs gets same intellect attribute compare to mystical high elves?

In every race, you'll see many cases where for examples of a powerful orc wizard/necromancer.

Thukhozod is an example. Extremely powerful Orc necromancer who attained immortality by transferring his soul from vessel to vessel (if I remember correctly his method).

Is it a good proportion of orcs who can be powerful magic users? No but also not a good proportion of magicka dps who are gonna be orcs.

Look at all the guards in High Elves towns. All... well... High Elves. Is the majority of the population? Nope. The guards and physical damage and so, high elves CAN be proficient at martial combat.

Is it a good proportion of em? Nope. Are many players gonna High Elf unless the meme is stronk? I don't think so but the meme can always be stronk so I could be wrong.

Drygon

I also think giving no race change token is not morally alright.

As a casual player I got by last time they changed them with the three tokens, but truth be told, the characters that did not receive a race change are now crafters/bank characters.

They should still give us 3 race change tokens and a normal discount in crown store, as this I believe would be sufficient for most players. Sure, not enough for the hardcore ones but lets face it, they are a minority.

Still, it would be bad to ignore all players as this will only show us that ZOS has a lot worse in store for us .

I sure hope they will make the right and humane choice.

Pallio

If all your characters are currently High Elf or Orc, at least some of them will be Khajit soon. One way or another, this will happen, the only question is how much will it cost us?