Ball of Lightning morph needs to be adjusted
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Jayserix✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »@Jayserix what do you mean try?
He is talking about BOL and you started talking about Streak. The issues he raised with BOL have no relation to streak.
I also play mainly stamsorc and I agree with the op that BOL is overloaded. I don't agree with the elements he would change, but do think it does too much.
Streak is fine, which is why I replied to your comment by simply pointing you back to what was being discussed.
And that's is precisely why I thought you weren't trying, it's just a miscommunication issue.
What I failed to clarify is that while BoL is a good escape tool, magsorcs using it have no reliable cc. So they rely even more on the kiting aspect of the gameplay. Therefore it's not busted, even though it's frustrating to play against.
While magsorcs using streak can play more aggressively.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
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And that's is precisely why I thought you weren't trying, it's just a miscommunication issue.
What I failed to clarify is that while BoL is a good escape tool, magsorcs using it have no reliable cc. So they rely even more on the kiting aspect of the gameplay. Therefore it's not busted, even though it's frustrating to play against.
While magsorcs using streak can play more aggressively.
It removes immobolisations, stops all projectiles hitting you for 3 secs and teleports you 15 meters away. It is definetly overloaded. I think the latter is what makes it so op. Snare removal is warranted I think if choosing to use it as an escape tool instead of a stun, but absorbing all projectiles for 3 seconds is insanely strong.
If it caught the next 3 projectiles it would be closer to balance imo. Perhaps if it just reduced the damage you received from projectiles for 3 secs that would be ok. At the moment using BOL has no counter, you can't be stunned or attacked essentially after pressing it.1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Yeah totally right. Really a shame that mag sorc is the only mag class in the game and others dont exist. I wonder what these "magplar" and "magdk" things are I keep hearing about, must be some dungeon sets or something.
Sure, lets nerf BOL and make mag sorc, the only mag class a dungeon set then1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
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...
Can you at least try ?
I try to choose my words wisely. That's why I said : reliable.
There is nothing reliable about those two option, except for dueling and/or very small scale. And this is why I said that ESO isn't a solo game.
When you look at the sorc kit, streak and BoL are indeed amazing tools, that's what the class is for : high mobility. We don't have high AoE, high burst (talking about mags here), so yeah the play style is kiting, kiting and more kiting, until you manage to combo your target.
I don't play stamsorc so I can't speak for them.
Streak is literally the strongest stun in the game right now that goes thru block and roll and can pull NBs out of stealth, while also creating distance. Rune Cage is a 28m range stun that is also unblockable. Defensive Rune makes anyone who attack you get stunned, and it's also unblockable. Flame Clench while blockable, almost guarantees a cfrag hit if it lands. You have 4 options for your stun, so why do people run BoL? Because it's broken lmao. You seriously cannot defend this ability when it's a pure defensive skill
Yea, i'm speaking from a stamsorc's perspective. If it's broken on stamsorc, it's broken on magsorc. I actually have a clip of tanking a 15 man zerg for 17 seconds before I BoL back to my group. That's how stupid it is. Streak would have never let me tank that zerg.1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »
Nothing special there. When harness magicka was a thing before shields couldnt be crit, mag sorcs could do that with BOL without as much movement. In murkmire mag sorcs could do that without using BOL.
Funnily enough necro/ warden can do that without moving an inch right now.
But you still want mag sorc nerfed ? 0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Nothing special there. When harness magicka was a thing before shields couldnt be crit, mag sorcs could do that with BOL without as much movement. In murkmire mag sorcs could do that without using BOL.
Funnily enough necro/ warden can do that without moving an inch right now. But you still want mag sorc nerfed ?
Oh you're telling me a magsorc could sit there and tank 15 people without BoL?
No they can't. Not a chance lmao. I lived because BoL absorbed all the big hitting abilities and blocking mitigated most of the dmg. Your 22k shield isn't gonna save you from 15 people throwing ranged abilities at you. Or did you mean streaking away into the sunset like every magsorc?1 -
Dunning_Kruger✭✭✭✭Man imagine trying to balance your own class on something you think is OP; and randoms come in to correct you that you likely have crushed or X’d.____________________________________
A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>
For the Queen bby4 -
Xargas13✭✭✭That ability just needs increased cost the more they use it, more then they have now, since they spamming it like its nothing and ignoring the increased cost, which nullifies the debuff. Try killing a sorc that knows how to use streak, you can't, even if you get him low, he will streak away, to the edges of the horizon
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The core problems is that BoL counters both ranged and melee skills. You move out of melee range, and become immune to all ranged damage. I don't understand how anyone can think that is balanced.
And yet I got those clinging on to me that learned to use a gap closer. If bar space doesn't allow you to slot one, then so be it. If I don't slot a reveal or AoE I shouldn't complain about cloak either.
However, I think turnip is on the right path. Turn down the absorb effect in numbers, duration or turn it like wings into a % mitigation.
Removing the utility would still shut down ranged builds.
Increasing the coast would essentially lock out stam sorcs.1 -
Jayserix✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »[...]
Streak is literally the strongest stun in the game right now that goes thru block and roll and can pull NBs out of stealth, while also creating distance. Rune Cage is a 28m range stun that is also unblockable. Defensive Rune makes anyone who attack you get stunned, and it's also unblockable. Flame Clench while blockable, almost guarantees a cfrag hit if it lands. You have 4 options for your stun, so why do people run BoL? Because it's broken lmao. You seriously cannot defend this ability when it's a pure defensive skill
Yea, i'm speaking from a stamsorc's perspective. If it's broken on stamsorc, it's broken on magsorc. I actually have a clip of tanking a 15 man zerg for 17 seconds before I BoL back to my group. That's how stupid it is. Streak would have never let me tank that zerg.
Ok now, streak is the strongest stun in the game : true. BoL is the strongest escape tool in the game : true. What do you want to do with it ?
At least Turnip is suggesting to reduce the amount of projectiles or mitigate a portion of the damage. Those are sensible ideas.
And you keep bringing up Rune Cage and Defensive Rune ... I'd like to ask every single player in Cyro right now to tell me how many sorcs use them or Flame Clench. I've seen one, and he was playing with 4 dudes and used RC to lock players so his friends could blow them up.
That's it, since the start of the tests not a single solo magsorc used either of those cc against me, and I've spent way too much time in Cyrodiil to be fair.
And once again you're not adressing my initial point : magsorcs have to make a choice.
- Best stun
- Best escape
Last point, we're talking Cyro or BG ? Because in BG I could use DR efficiently, not in Cyro ...2 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Protective Plate
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations for 2 seconds.
New effect
Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations. Cost reduces as ability ranks up.
vs.
Ball of Lightning
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Maximum range: 15 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Skill description
Transform yourself into pure energy and flash forward. After reaching your location, you become immune to snare and immobilize effects for 2 seconds. A ball of lightning is created at this location as well, which absorbs incoming projectiles for 3 seconds. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka.
New effect
Absorbs projectiles. Grants brief snare and immobilization immunity after casting. No longer stuns enemies.
Which is better, I vote Ball of lightning. Protective has 2 effects and ball has 3 effects.
Stay safe and have fun
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭After discussing BOL quite significantly in this thread I decided to try it again on my stamsorc. It was really fun being immortal 😂 as long as you have enough health left to still press BOL you are unstoppable.
It needs some adjustments for sure, but you know... No hurry 😂1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Protective Plate
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations for 2 seconds.
New effect
Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations. Cost reduces as ability ranks up.
vs.
Ball of Lightning
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Maximum range: 15 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Skill description
Transform yourself into pure energy and flash forward. After reaching your location, you become immune to snare and immobilize effects for 2 seconds. A ball of lightning is created at this location as well, which absorbs incoming projectiles for 3 seconds. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka.
New effect
Absorbs projectiles. Grants brief snare and immobilization immunity after casting. No longer stuns enemies.
Which is better, I vote Ball of lightning. Protective has 2 effects and ball has 3 effects.
Stay safe and have fun
What I'm hearing is buff Wings.4 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
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What do i want to do with it? I want to adjust BoL without nerfing the ability. I literally gave a list of possible options in my original post... But just for convenience, I'll repost it hereOk now, streak is the strongest stun in the game : true. BoL is the strongest escape tool in the game : true. What do you want to do with it ?
Some suggestions for adjusting Ball of Lightning:
1) Increase the base cost
2) Reduce absorption duration
3) Remove snare immunity
4) Increase the cost increase penaltyAnd you keep bringing up Rune Cage and Defensive Rune ... I'd like to ask every single player in Cyro right now to tell me how many sorcs use them or Flame Clench. I've seen one, and he was playing with 4 dudes and used RC to lock players so his friends could blow them up.
Rune Cage and Defensive rune are good against pugs because for some reason they do not roll dodge the stun, ever.And once again you're not adressing my initial point : magsorcs have to make a choice.
- Best stun
- Best escape
Streak lets you have both, yet magsorcs don't run it because why? Obviously because BoL is just that broken
Edited by StaticWave on March 3, 2021 3:01PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Protective Plate
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations for 2 seconds.
New effect
Gain immunity to snares and immobilizations. Cost reduces as ability ranks up.
vs.
Ball of Lightning
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Maximum range: 15 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 3780 Magicka
Skill description
Transform yourself into pure energy and flash forward. After reaching your location, you become immune to snare and immobilize effects for 2 seconds. A ball of lightning is created at this location as well, which absorbs incoming projectiles for 3 seconds. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka.
New effect
Absorbs projectiles. Grants brief snare and immobilization immunity after casting. No longer stuns enemies.
Which is better, I vote Ball of lightning. Protective has 2 effects and ball has 3 effects.
Stay safe and have fun
There is exactly 1 situation where I would take wings over BoL: Veteran Cloudrest as main tank since wings is easier to get right to reduce the zmaja heavy attack. In every other situation I´d take BoL in a heartbeat.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP isn't wrong, but subjectively this ability is nowhere near as obnoxious in open world Cyro as vamp mist hp regen, holding SnB block, or Earthgore when procs are enabled. This game has such a massive pile of degenerately powerful low-effort low-investment survival and sustain tools that nerfing Ball Lightning wouldn't even begin to level.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »OP isn't wrong, but subjectively this ability is nowhere near as obnoxious in open world Cyro as vamp mist hp regen, holding SnB block, or Earthgore when procs are enabled. This game has such a massive pile of degenerately powerful low-effort low-investment survival and sustain tools that nerfing Ball Lightning wouldn't even begin to level.
I agree with this. Isolated BOL is over performing, but compared to the other things more obnoxious it is pretty low on the list.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
Streak lets you have both, yet magsorcs don't run it because why? Obviously because BoL is just that broken
Part of the answer is because many stam players are forced into dizzy swing meta and already have a great stun at hand. No need to slot a second one if the alternative isn't subpar.
However, I think they simply should put a limit on how many projectiles can be absorbed and see how it plays out.2 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »
Oh you're telling me a magsorc could sit there and tank 15 people without BoL?
No they can't. Not a chance lmao. I lived because BoL absorbed all the big hitting abilities and blocking mitigated most of the dmg. Your 22k shield isn't gonna save you from 15 people throwing ranged abilities at you. Or did you mean streaking away into the sunset like every magsorc?
This was in murkmire when sorc defense was a bit overtuned like necro / warden right now.
I am not sure whether you have played mag sorc without BOL in this proc / high health meta and its a joke of a class against even really bad players running procs. BOL gives it a chance as I don't need to take the extra damage from ranged while dealing with a million procs
I started running streak only recently during the cyrodil tests because guess what, mag classes barely scratch my health pool and stam players are probably using their skill bars for the first time in years.
Edited by PhoenixGrey on March 3, 2021 6:36PM1 -
Jayserix✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »[...]
Streak lets you have both, yet magsorcs don't run it because why? Obviously because BoL is just that broken
Maybe your experience in Cyro varies because you play in a roaming group but as a solo player who often participate in group objectives, I play streak and so do many of my opponents. I'd say in CP EU streak is way more popular for magsorc. But that's in a specific scenario.
Me for instance I prefer to streak into the pugs so my faction can jump right after me.
Another anecdote, why most magsorcs never use Defensive Rune ? Before the tests I tried it for a few days, I can't recall how many times I got destroyed during the opening + cc break animation before the rune stunned the NB behind me. I'd die and see my killer get stunned ...
I never put points into it ever again
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Faded✭✭✭✭✭And you keep bringing up Rune Cage and Defensive Rune ... I'd like to ask every single player in Cyro right now to tell me how many sorcs use them or Flame Clench.
What?
You must be thinking of petsorcs. No idea what those jokers run with the pet(s) taking up so much space.Edited by Faded on March 3, 2021 7:35PM0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
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Maybe your experience in Cyro varies because you play in a roaming group but as a solo player who often participate in group objectives, I play streak and so do many of my opponents. I'd say in CP EU streak is way more popular for magsorc. But that's in a specific scenario.
Me for instance I prefer to streak into the pugs so my faction can jump right after me.
Another anecdote, why most magsorcs never use Defensive Rune ? Before the tests I tried it for a few days, I can't recall how many times I got destroyed during the opening + cc break animation before the rune stunned the NB behind me. I'd die and see my killer get stunned ...
I never put points into it ever again
I'm speaking straight from experience when comparing Streak vs BoL in an outnumbered fight. I usually 1vX or 4vX with my team when they're online, so my experience is mostly centered around those situations. The clip I linked was a good example. You can clearly see 5-6 abilities being absorbed by the ball, which saved me from dying when my shield wall was down. I can already get away from most fights with Streak, so BoL just makes it 3x easier with the snare cleanse and ability to absorb all ranged stuns. It's not healthy at all imho as there is no counterplay apart from slotting a gapcloser.
The good thing about defensive rune is it lets you shake off gap closer spammers. You obviously can't control who it hits, but in a 1v1 scenario it's not a bad ability. Rune Cage is still a viable option. I've done builds with it before on stamsorc, so I know how good it can be.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
This was in murkmire when sorc defense was a bit overtuned like necro / warden right now.
I am not sure whether you have played mag sorc without BOL in this proc / high health meta and its a joke of a class against even really bad players running procs. BOL gives it a chance as I don't need to take the extra damage from ranged while dealing with a million procs
I started running streak only recently during the cyrodil tests because guess what, mag classes barely scratch my health pool and stam players are probably using their skill bars for the first time in years.
Bringing up procs to defend an overloaded ability doesn't make sense. Every class suffers from proc meta. Take a look at the no proc cyro and see how magsorcs dominate when there are no procs around.1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »
Bringing up procs to defend an overloaded ability doesn't make sense. Every class suffers from proc meta. Take a look at the no proc cyro and see how magsorcs dominate when there are no procs around.
Of course it does. Procs and high health pool are here to stay and balance is relative. Roll p2w classes to 1vx is basically ZOS's message to its community.
The reality is mag sorc neither has the burst to take down 40k health toons nor has the heals to deal with procs.Edited by PhoenixGrey on March 4, 2021 12:09AM1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »
Of course it does. Procs and high health pool are here to stay and balance is relative. Roll p2w classes to 1vx is basically ZOS's message to its community.
The reality is mag sorc neither has the burst to take down 40k health toons nor has the heals to deal with procs.
No, it doesn't. The issue of proc meta is irrelevant to the issue of BoL. You can't just use the argument that because X meta is broken, X ability is also needed even though it's broken. If we used your logic then Artic Blast is also not broken.
Those are completely 2 separate issues and need to be addressed individually. Removing 1 issue does not remove the other, which is evident by the no proc test as BoL and Arctic Blast are still super strong and have basically no counter in that environment.
The ability needs an adjustment, regardless of how much sorcs need it or not.Edited by StaticWave on March 4, 2021 2:06AM1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »
No, it doesn't. The issue of proc meta is irrelevant to the issue of BoL. You can't just use the argument that because X meta is broken, X ability is also needed even though it's broken. If we used your logic then Artic Blast is also not broken.
Those are completely 2 separate issues and need to be addressed individually. Removing 1 issue does not remove the other, which is evident by the no proc test as BoL and Arctic Blast are still super strong and have basically no counter in that environment.
The ability needs an adjustment, regardless of how much sorcs need it or not.
That's not how balance works in this game and it will never in the future.
I am sure BOL will get adjusted in the future while arctic blast will not or another OP ability will take its place.
Why ? DLC classes especially stam DLC classes will always be in a good place because the vast majority play it and players have paid or will pay $$ for them. Why will anyone play a DLC class if its not superior from the rest ?
Edited by PhoenixGrey on March 4, 2021 2:43AM3 -
Jayserix✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »
I'm speaking straight from experience when comparing Streak vs BoL in an outnumbered fight. I usually 1vX or 4vX with my team when they're online, so my experience is mostly centered around those situations. The clip I linked was a good example. You can clearly see 5-6 abilities being absorbed by the ball, which saved me from dying when my shield wall was down. I can already get away from most fights with Streak, so BoL just makes it 3x easier with the snare cleanse and ability to absorb all ranged stuns. It's not healthy at all imho as there is no counterplay apart from slotting a gapcloser.
The good thing about defensive rune is it lets you shake off gap closer spammers. You obviously can't control who it hits, but in a 1v1 scenario it's not a bad ability. Rune Cage is still a viable option. I've done builds with it before on stamsorc, so I know how good it can be.
Well I'm not saying that your experiences don't matter but they're anecdotes at best. And like another member said earlier, if people don't play with gapclosers that's their choices, you chose the escape ability and by doing that you don't have any aoe cc (except ults).
Does that mean that your conclusions should be used to determine how all the others sorcs will have to deal with ? I have doubts about that.1 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭You very rarely see BoL morph on PC EU PvP. When you do, it's annoying and does what its intended to do, but I don't think I've ever been in a situation where it seems unbalanced.3
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Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
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Well I'm not saying that your experiences don't matter but they're anecdotes at best. And like another member said earlier, if people don't play with gapclosers that's their choices, you chose the escape ability and by doing that you don't have any aoe cc (except ults).
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Magdk perspective: Even if I play with my gap closer it doesnt do anything. Because it gets absorbed by ball of lightning so I dont pull myself to the sorc but to the ball of lightning he left behind instead so I might aswell not use it.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0
https://youtu.be/mzZeC-6OW60