How much of a joke is the new vFV and vMHK?

hcbigdogdoghc

Don't have the pts so never tested the nerfed versions. From what I've read in the patch notes they seems to be butchered completely and are basically imperial city dungeon tier now.

Especially some....unnecessary nerfs like being able to dodge lasers and nerfing the behemoth in mhk 4th boss which makes mechanics and strategies completely irrelevant.

How are these 2 dungeons in the pts?

codierussell

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Especially some....unnecessary nerfs like being able to dodge lasers and nerfing the behemoth in mhk 4th boss which makes mechanics and strategies completely irrelevant.

Mechanics are already irrelevant. I don't even know what half the mechanics are on any DLC dungeon outside of the hard mode bosses. DPS is already too high for most groups to be bothered with the mechanics, for example the Moon Hunter Keep boss you mention my group will kill it before a single shock warden spawns. Changes like these help lower skilled players and for others like myself the change doesn't make things any easier, it was already a 15 second fight with no mechanics.

karekiz

HM wasn't changed so really. Nothing was changed for high end.

renne

codierussell wrote: »

Changes like these help lower skilled players and for others like myself the change doesn't make things any easier, it was already a 15 second fight with no mechanics.

Exactly. These two are likely the least completed dungeons in the game hence the nerfs. People who can do it anyway are still going to be able to do it, people who haven't, or immediately drop it if it comes up in dungeon finder because it's hard to get a clear are going to have a chance to be able to complete the content now.

Kurat

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Don't have the pts so never tested the nerfed versions. From what I've read in the patch notes they seems to be butchered completely and are basically imperial city dungeon tier now.

Especially some....unnecessary nerfs like being able to dodge lasers and nerfing the behemoth in mhk 4th boss which makes mechanics and strategies completely irrelevant.

How are these 2 dungeons in the pts?

I guess some nerfing was needed because majority of pugs struggle in those dungeons. But the went overboard imo. Laser boss in frostvault is a real pug killer but joke on pts. Adds being chainable is already enough but you can also roll dodge lasers and that makes the whole boss fight mechanic pointless, just another parse boss now.

honey_badger82

I did vet frostvault once like over a year ago. Those lasers killed me so many times I had to repair equipment for the first time ever in a dungeon. We were stuck on that boss for almost 45 minutes and went through 2 tanks, 2 dps and 1 healer quitting before clearing that boss. I literally finished the dungeon with an entirely different group than I started it with.
At the time I had only done it like twice on normal and was still relatively low level CP. I didnt really understand the mechanics of the lasers but now that I do I almost never get hit by one on normal as it is. Learning from the first experience made me a better player as opposed to just being given the W.

Don't get me wrong though, I am a big proponent for toning down some of the vet HM mechanics; there does need to be room for error. For instance vFalkreath HM has almost no room for error. You get like a millisecond warning when he is about to shout and if you see that warning the moment it pops up and are in the middle of the room your dead. If you hide behind more than one pillar as a group and are not among the 2% of players who can burn fast enough to avoid multiple rounds of this mechanic then you will run out of pillars and fail over and over.

It literally takes 1 mistake by 1 player in some of these vet HM dungeons to fail the attempt on that boss. That's not ok in my book, I want a challenge yes but having for not only myself to be perfect in performance but needing 3 other players I have 0 control of to succeed is not a challenge, it is frustrating and downright not fun.

karekiz

honey_badger82 wrote: »

For instance vFalkreath HM has almost no room for error. You get like a millisecond warning when he is about to shout and if you see that warning the moment it pops up and are in the middle of the room your dead. If you hide behind more than one pillar as a group and are not among the 2% of players who can burn fast enough to avoid multiple rounds of this mechanic then you will run out of pillars and fail over and over.

He always shouts at the same Health %. So essentially you just move before he even begins his shout and you will always live. I can't recall since its been awhile but I think the first is 70% <Usually a group can push this while you are on outside ring>. So at 75% begin to move towards the designated pillar <Choose one and go around in order>.

Typically the only "BS" thing about this <And any other AoE in game> is the server vs visual indicator for your character. Stuff like dodge rolling doesn't exactly work until you have finished and even sprinting is delayed slightly.

Also HM or not its the same mechanic. HM adds the shield and -2 pillars.

codierussell

honey_badger82 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong though, I am a big proponent for toning down some of the vet HM mechanics; there does need to be room for error. For instance vFalkreath HM has almost no room for error. You get like a millisecond warning when he is about to shout and if you see that warning the moment it pops up and are in the middle of the room your dead. If you hide behind more than one pillar as a group and are not among the 2% of players who can burn fast enough to avoid multiple rounds of this mechanic then you will run out of pillars and fail over and over.

This is weird considering Falkreath is one of the easiest DLC hard modes in the game. Personally I think the shout is more than generous time wise. There is a huge visual tell for this mechanic and it actually tells you on screen that he is preparing to shout. If you want to complain about low room for error I think Scalecaller hard mode takes it for the poison cone mechanic.

ssewallb14_ESO

The Vault Protector nerf was a bad move IMO, it makes the main mechanic nearly irrelevant.

A better option would've been to nerf the add health and possibly some of the high damage effects (exploding balls, empowered spheres, cleave with no telegraph).

In my experience (and I do a lot of DLC pugs), pugs can learn fight mechanics if you're patient and teach them. What they struggle with is fight mechanics while also under pressure from aoe, incoming damage, and mini dps/heal checks. The best way to make it "easier" without totally ruining the fight mechanically is to lower the amount of things needed to focus on so they can pay more attention to the main mechanics.

renne

karekiz wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

For instance vFalkreath HM has almost no room for error. You get like a millisecond warning when he is about to shout and if you see that warning the moment it pops up and are in the middle of the room your dead. If you hide behind more than one pillar as a group and are not among the 2% of players who can burn fast enough to avoid multiple rounds of this mechanic then you will run out of pillars and fail over and over.

He always shouts at the same Health %. So essentially you just move before he even begins his shout and you will always live. I can't recall since its been awhile but I think the first is 70% <Usually a group can push this while you are on outside ring>. So at 75% begin to move towards the designated pillar <Choose one and go around in order>.

Typically the only "BS" thing about this <And any other AoE in game> is the server vs visual indicator for your character. Stuff like dodge rolling doesn't exactly work until you have finished and even sprinting is delayed slightly.

Also HM or not its the same mechanic. HM adds the shield and -2 pillars.

This. A lot of the mechanics in dungeons you might think you only get a millisecond warning for are based on the health of the boss. It's why some DLC bosses especially in HM aren't actually about burning as hard as you can, unless you have a really switched on group and high burn that can handle the mechanics stacking and when a lot of the mechanics involve adds.

Alpheu5

Kurat wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Don't have the pts so never tested the nerfed versions. From what I've read in the patch notes they seems to be butchered completely and are basically imperial city dungeon tier now.

Especially some....unnecessary nerfs like being able to dodge lasers and nerfing the behemoth in mhk 4th boss which makes mechanics and strategies completely irrelevant.

How are these 2 dungeons in the pts?

I guess some nerfing was needed because majority of pugs struggle in those dungeons. But the went overboard imo. Laser boss in frostvault is a real pug killer but joke on pts. Adds being chainable is already enough but you can also roll dodge lasers and that makes the whole boss fight mechanic pointless, just another parse boss now.

Considering how frequently I've had groups wipe on the lasers simply because the shield mechanic bugged out and killed everyone on the other side, I'm glad they added an alternative method to avoid them. Magicka characters will likely still rely on the shield to save stam but everyone will have an opportunity to make corrections if they find themselves between a laser and a wall.

honey_badger82

I was being dramatic, I know its longer than a millisecond but my point is if you roll dodge wrong way like instead of backwards toward the pillar and instead you go to the middle there is no time to correct the error. And trying to heal and pay attention to health bars as well as teamate locations and with the the screen fx going on it's pretty easy to miss the warning.
And retrospectively that dungeon seemed like s walk in the park compared to the 2nd to last boss fight in lair of marselok but I am sure there are those here who think that's easy as well. Miss 1 block on a fuss ro dah when half the arena is on fire, stranglers are spitting poison for like 7k+ damage and your pretty much done.

MasterSpatula

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

The Vault Protector nerf was a bad move IMO, it makes the main mechanic nearly irrelevant.

A better option would've been to nerf the add health and possibly some of the high damage effects (exploding balls, empowered spheres, cleave with no telegraph).

In my experience (and I do a lot of DLC pugs), pugs can learn fight mechanics if you're patient and teach them. What they struggle with is fight mechanics while also under pressure from aoe, incoming damage, and mini dps/heal checks. The best way to make it "easier" without totally ruining the fight mechanically is to lower the amount of things needed to focus on so they can pay more attention to the main mechanics.

Agreed 100%. The problem, for me at least, has always been the adds, not the lasers.

renne

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I was being dramatic, I know its longer than a millisecond but my point is if you roll dodge wrong way like instead of backwards toward the pillar and instead you go to the middle there is no time to correct the error. And trying to heal and pay attention to health bars as well as teamate locations and with the the screen fx going on it's pretty easy to miss the warning.
And retrospectively that dungeon seemed like s walk in the park compared to the 2nd to last boss fight in lair of marselok but I am sure there are those here who think that's easy as well. Miss 1 block on a fuss ro dah when half the arena is on fire, stranglers are spitting poison for like 7k+ damage and your pretty much done.

You just need to glance at the health bar to see where it's at (with percentages turned on, of course) so you can prepare, you don't need to be watching it the whole fight. Like the point of hard mode is that it's hard and there's a lot of additional mechanics. If you're aware and prepared for the health bar to drop to the point where you need to get behind the pillar, it's quite straightforward. Not saying you'll necessarily get it first time, but learning the percentages and/or having call outs for your group while you learn what mechanics happen when is what makes it straightforward.

If you're going to do DLC vets and HMs, you're just... going to have to get used to doing things by the percentages because that's a pretty common mechanic in them and knowing what percentage x thing happens makes it so much easier not to mess everything up and mechanic stack (for example see: the crystals and colossus' in VFLHM).

Also in LoM if you jump on a fus ro dah you get yeeted even further and it's so funny. Not necessarily conducive to staying alive, but VERY funny.

karekiz

Its too bad they ping pong design so much IMO. I think VFL / VSCP are some of the best designed base vet encounters. They had one scuff way back in VFL when dogs had no visual indicator, but since they changed it, I have no issues. Every mechanic works properly <Or within well enough reason>, there are multiple ways of doing encounters <Did you know DPS can ignore totems and tanks can chain adds to explode them to death>, and deaths don't feel like a slippery slope.

I love some of the newer dungeons, especially stuff like the newer HM's, but there is a couple that just need toned down. One shots should never ever be subject to "Its bugged, guess I died to a one shot with no way to dodge because X patch had an issue", or the feeling of mechanic fat. Stuff like the triple animals is such a good encounter because it lacks the huge amounts of fat.

These two kind of showcase it:

Take the Dragon in LoM. You have strangler mechanic to bring down dragon -> AoE <that can be placed on the mobs you need to DPS to continue the event> -> Dragon roar -> Hoarvers -> Random Adds -> Lurchers -> Bursting the dragon. If random DPS get a little sloppy OOOPS EEE DOOODLE all progress is starting to get lost. And a progress bar? Forget about it, other games do that, not here!

The animal is Exploding animal -> AoE's that aren't exactly too dangerous -> Pounce -> Bash -> DPS Bear. That's really about it. Slim and to the point. If literally one person knows the pounce mechanic, your good and can carry a newer team through even with random deaths.

codierussell

karekiz wrote: »

I love some of the newer dungeons, especially stuff like the newer HM's, but there is a couple that just need toned down. One shots should never ever be subject to "Its bugged, guess I died to a one shot with no way to dodge because X patch had an issue", or the feeling of mechanic fat. Stuff like the triple animals is such a good encounter because it lacks the huge amounts of fat.

I have to say one shot mechanics are the laziest thing in PVE design. With all the talk about how healers are useless in dungeons on shot mechanics or massive incoming damage that should be dodged is not the way to value healers. I always say the way to make healers needed is one of two things, first is through high unavoidable dot damage. Stone garden hard mode is a perfect example of this, it can be done without a healer but honestly you need a bad ass tank for that. The second is through healing debuff mechanics like in sunspire on Navintaas.

Mastery404

codierussell wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I love some of the newer dungeons, especially stuff like the newer HM's, but there is a couple that just need toned down. One shots should never ever be subject to "Its bugged, guess I died to a one shot with no way to dodge because X patch had an issue", or the feeling of mechanic fat. Stuff like the triple animals is such a good encounter because it lacks the huge amounts of fat.

I have to say one shot mechanics are the laziest thing in PVE design. With all the talk about how healers are useless in dungeons on shot mechanics or massive incoming damage that should be dodged is not the way to value healers. I always say the way to make healers needed is one of two things, first is through high unavoidable dot damage. Stone garden hard mode is a perfect example of this, it can be done without a healer but honestly you need a bad ass tank for that. The second is through healing debuff mechanics like in sunspire on Navintaas.

Oneshot mechanics is the result of the current meta where everyone self-heals from 0 to full whithout compromising their tankiness or damage output. As a healer, with high CP PUGs, my HPS is around 33% of the group.

aetherial_heavenn

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Don't have the pts so never tested the nerfed versions. From what I've read in the patch notes they seems to be butchered completely and are basically imperial city dungeon tier now.

Especially some....unnecessary nerfs like being able to dodge lasers and nerfing the behemoth in mhk 4th boss which makes mechanics and strategies completely irrelevant.

How are these 2 dungeons in the pts?

I guess some nerfing was needed because majority of pugs struggle in those dungeons. But the went overboard imo. Laser boss in frostvault is a real pug killer but joke on pts. Adds being chainable is already enough but you can also roll dodge lasers and that makes the whole boss fight mechanic pointless, just another parse boss now.

Considering how frequently I've had groups wipe on the lasers simply because the shield mechanic bugged out and killed everyone on the other side, I'm glad they added an alternative method to avoid them. Magicka characters will likely still rely on the shield to save stam but everyone will have an opportunity to make corrections if they find themselves between a laser and a wall.

These days I just quit group if 'the one with the lasers" as it is often known, comes up as random....vet or normal. And I am not alone. The only time I've received hate whispers on my healer was dying to lasers, over and over and over at the feet of the players who did not. (I have carried groups through concurrently released dungeons on healer, (vet and normal) by fake tanking, heal kiting, and rezzing tank/dps , over and over, until they/we learned the boss mechanics. So I am not utterly hopeless and am usually very patient with taking a while to learn stuff. This one just makes me weep.)

The shield is broken for anyone with bad lag. The positional desync is horrendous ...it's actually visible to other players when they rez you. They see you die in one place and the rez beam goes on a 90 degree or more angle to where your corpse is on screen. So, in my opinion, the more nerfs to this expletive laden fight, the better. It doesn't measure ability or reaction time or skill use or anticipation...it only measures whether you have a fibre connection and live next door to the server. At least this way I can pop stam pots and roll and hope it works better than the broken shield mechanic.