Why are 90% of all changes initiated because of "Damage" complaints, and not "Defense" complaints?

Crom_CCCXVI

It's not just this game, it's every game. Feel free to Fact Check me in the 5 years or so of Forums available here.

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

Logically shouldn't it be like 50/50? For every person yelling "Nerf Sloads, Nerf Viper, Nerf Talons, Nerf Sun Shield, Nerf Overload, Nerf Off Balance, Put a Timer on DK whip, Nerf DOT's, Nerf Snipe, Nerf Nightblades out of Stealth, Nerf Drain Essence, Nerf Onslaught, Nerf Stuns, Nerf Immobilizes, Nerf Minors, Nerf Majors, Nerf Dragon Leap Time, Nerf the Necro Ult, Nerf Sheildbreaker, Nerf Elegant, Nerf Procs, Nerf Frags, Nerf Racial Passives, Nerf Bloodthirsty, Nerf Torugs damage, Nerf KnightSlayer, Nerf Oblivion Damage, Nerf Incap, (and those are just off the top of my head, lol)

There were a handful of defensive dealing with sheilds, heavy armor (but that was probably to slow the mobility of attacking toon wearing heavy armor by mag toons)


Is it the psychology? The nature of the type of player?
I think it's relevant, because I think many of the issues we are discussing in this game are essentially the culmination of 4 years or so of a Defensive Trend being added to the game. The movement changes (specifically the Immobilization nerfs) have probably more than anything quadrupled survivability and group cohesion resulting in zerg lag... but I realize many players, especially the vocal players with little interest in campaign objectives despise any movement hinderences...

Just saying, if you look, the trend is a real thing.

VaranisArano

I mean, sure, the damage oriented complaints are going going to outnumber the defensive complaints just because the ways to kill enemies way outnumber the ways to stay alive.

But you'll hear a lot of complaints in the PVP forums about the ability of groups to "healstack" multiple instances of the same HOT and to purge debuffs. Recently ZOS just reverted group-only healing, which follows after a number of complaints about players being "carried" by healers outside their groups. Those are basically "I can't kill that player" complaints, in the sense of "we can't kill that group!"

The other reason there are less "I can't kill X class" threads is that those tend to be from more inexperienced players. Most of the time, the responses vary from "get good" to helpful advice for how other players kill that class. When something defensive is really unbalanced or overused (Earthgore, 7th Legion, heavy armor in general, damage shields, etc.) then you get a lot more discussion from experienced players who are struggling.

That's how I distinguish between a minor complaint from an aggrieved player and something that's a real problem for PVP. You mentioned Sloads - when Summerset launched, everyone was dying to Sloads, including the experienced players. When Viper was the Battlegrounds meta, everyone was taking burst poison proc damage. The Blazeplar is more an example of a needed defensive nerf - ZOS doesn't want players genuinely tanking a 1vX fight. A lot of times, ZOS nerfs and adjusts stuff that a good portion of the community is struggling with. It's not just the minor complaints of players aggrieved that they died.

Morgul667

Cause it is more frustrating to die to others, than not to be able to kill somebody

ExistingRug61

Morgul667 wrote: »

Cause it is more frustrating to die to others, than not to be able to kill somebody

I think this basically explains it.
Plus it is part of the reasons I think that makes players gravitate toward a tank meta.
Often, a players first priority is not to die.
Psychologically, this might come from players preferring to “not lose” rather than to “win”.

Kory

Don't get too ahead of yourself, "please nerf jumping" or "nerf blocking" is something I've seen more than a couple times

Fennwitty

Getting killed without feeling you had a chance is more frustrating.

If I get killed by what appears unreasonable, or 'cheating' not only did I 'lose' but my game's interrupted. I'm dead on the ground and have to wait or respawn and travel. I'm effectively removed from play and bored.

If I can't kill an enemy -- and they can't kill me -- I move on. I'm still pressing buttons and focusing on the game. The opponent's defense may be cheesy but I know there's a player I'm competing against and I have a chance to improve myself and overcome, or learn from it.

Just like how 'one-shot' autohit mechanics without a broadcast seem to PvE players much more unfair than bosses with too many HP but that you can deal with.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

Is it the psychology? The nature of the type of player?
I think it's relevant, because I think many of the issues we are discussing in this game are essentially the culmination of 4 years or so of a Defensive Trend being added to the game.

We're facing long years of an Offensive trend, that seem to finally come to an end with Update 29, making the game more interesting for us moron tanks.

It all started years ago with the nerf to the Nord. I don't even remember when.

But I remember it had some chunky bonuses, like a 30% or something buff to Health Regen, and I think it also had Health bonus.

When they removed that, quite all my characters were Nords, and most still are to this day. I remember switching the sorc from Breton to Nord back before the nerf.

Then they nerfed Constitution from the heavy armor tree. It used to give like a lot of health regen.

Then they nerfed health regen sets. Orgnum's Scales, Troll King etc.

Now with Update 29 we see a massive reversal of this trend. Not only that health regen buffs are incredible, but damage buffs seem to go down to 10% plus, from 15% x 25% (aka Elemental Expert x Master At Arms, about 44%) plus in the CP 1.0. This is a massive nerf to damage. This nerf is probably made on the assumption that DDs are automatically using Malacath to compensate. I never even went into that Archaeology thing. Certainly those who weren't using Malacath until now, will be forced to get that for their DD chars.

Now I don't like when DDs aren't happy about what happens to themselves. Because they are the target public of Zenimax.
Nobody cares if tanks are whining, but when DD streamers are whining. And usually if they are whining means more nerfs to us tanks.
As I see it now, at almost no PVP I am doing for the moment, don't think being a PVP DD will even matter in the future. DDs will have to band into larger teams to take out tanks, which will be godlike, I think. Least that's how I feel, and I am grinding CPs to reach the minimum I need for my tanks to be battle ready when this launches.

milllaurie

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

It's not just this game, it's every game. Feel free to Fact Check me in the 5 years or so of Forums available here.

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

Logically shouldn't it be like 50/50? For every person yelling "Nerf Sloads, Nerf Viper, Nerf Talons, Nerf Sun Shield, Nerf Overload, Nerf Off Balance, Put a Timer on DK whip, Nerf DOT's, Nerf Snipe, Nerf Nightblades out of Stealth, Nerf Drain Essence, Nerf Onslaught, Nerf Stuns, Nerf Immobilizes, Nerf Minors, Nerf Majors, Nerf Dragon Leap Time, Nerf the Necro Ult, Nerf Sheildbreaker, Nerf Elegant, Nerf Procs, Nerf Frags, Nerf Racial Passives, Nerf Bloodthirsty, Nerf Torugs damage, Nerf KnightSlayer, Nerf Oblivion Damage, Nerf Incap, (and those are just off the top of my head, lol)

There were a handful of defensive dealing with sheilds, heavy armor (but that was probably to slow the mobility of attacking toon wearing heavy armor by mag toons)


Is it the psychology? The nature of the type of player?
I think it's relevant, because I think many of the issues we are discussing in this game are essentially the culmination of 4 years or so of a Defensive Trend being added to the game. The movement changes (specifically the Immobilization nerfs) have probably more than anything quadrupled survivability and group cohesion resulting in zerg lag... but I realize many players, especially the vocal players with little interest in campaign objectives despise any movement hinderences...

Just saying, if you look, the trend is a real thing.

Well, you can't see sets like Cyrodiil's crest on your recap, that's why. After 4 years it got a nerf.
I used to run crest, ww hide, bloodspawn, 3x infused potion cd glyphs on my argonian stamdk and just facetank zergs.
The same reason applies to everything whats making one tanky - bloodspawn needed 6 years to get nerfed, so did troll king, momentum needed 4.5 years to get rid of the HoT part.
And tbe reason is all the same - you don't see it on your recap. When at the same time you can see - sloads, wrath of elements, viper and such.

ZeroDPS

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

It's not just this game, it's every game. Feel free to Fact Check me in the 5 years or so of Forums available here.

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

Logically shouldn't it be like 50/50? For every person yelling "Nerf Sloads, Nerf Viper, Nerf Talons, Nerf Sun Shield, Nerf Overload, Nerf Off Balance, Put a Timer on DK whip, Nerf DOT's, Nerf Snipe, Nerf Nightblades out of Stealth, Nerf Drain Essence, Nerf Onslaught, Nerf Stuns, Nerf Immobilizes, Nerf Minors, Nerf Majors, Nerf Dragon Leap Time, Nerf the Necro Ult, Nerf Sheildbreaker, Nerf Elegant, Nerf Procs, Nerf Frags, Nerf Racial Passives, Nerf Bloodthirsty, Nerf Torugs damage, Nerf KnightSlayer, Nerf Oblivion Damage, Nerf Incap, (and those are just off the top of my head, lol)

There were a handful of defensive dealing with sheilds, heavy armor (but that was probably to slow the mobility of attacking toon wearing heavy armor by mag toons)


Is it the psychology? The nature of the type of player?
I think it's relevant, because I think many of the issues we are discussing in this game are essentially the culmination of 4 years or so of a Defensive Trend being added to the game. The movement changes (specifically the Immobilization nerfs) have probably more than anything quadrupled survivability and group cohesion resulting in zerg lag... but I realize many players, especially the vocal players with little interest in campaign objectives despise any movement hinderences...

Just saying, if you look, the trend is a real thing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562530/we-need-more-nerfs#latest

Faded

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

Just saying, if you look, the trend is a real thing.

Is it? I see an endless stream of nerf heals, nerf block, nerf streak, nerf cloak, nerf heavy armor, most of which boil down to: I can't kill who I think I should be able to kill in the way I'm trying to kill them. (Often accompanied by an anecdote of desperately bad tactics.) People hate dying to wrecking balls, but they complain at least as much that they are uncounterable and unkillable except by another ball group as they do about getting ulti-dumped by 10 people at once.

The big exception is complaints about active proc sets, which are often flashy and sometimes stupidly overtuned, and also easy to nerf to hell just in time for the next one.

edit: many typo day

MashmalloMan

"Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

About 80% of all statistics are made up.

Sahidom

You could recount all the MMO published to date and one consistent commonality remains: massive offense power always outweighs the need for defense.

This is obvious in both PVE and PVP content play. Look at all the complaints about changes that lowers damage caps, PVP combos that destoy opponents with 3-4 GCD executed in mere seconds, and the numerous complaints about fake tanks and the lacking need for healers.

This is the reality of this MMO too. When you can build a character that can self-heal and dole out massive DPS than defense issues fall to the wayside. ZOS has catered to this demand and when you have little check and balance it becomes viral.

It's also noticed more in PVE gameplay since non-Player mobs (even on vet) don't return critical hits or status effects, other than static mechanic CC that can be avoided.

When you wrap yourself around the commonality fact that a powerful offense is your best defense; than you'll know why defense isn't the focus, and why players don't see raw defense values an issue.

[Edited:
ZOS tried to improve defenses via crowd control mechanics to supplement the fact you can't offset defensive imbalance to damage with only raw resistances alone. In PVE content play, snares is the most common form of CC to hold enemies in tight groups for trial group DPS effectiveness.

In PVP, it's a far more complex system and it's also the most broken, in terms of balance of distribution since it's easily exploitable. These additions circles back to alternative methods to improve defenses BUT it's a one sided conversation since it's not applicable in many PVE gameplay instances except the need to pool enemies.

Again, the argument or pain point originates from the massive damage output: call it power creep, over performing proc sets, imbalanced skill design, whatever..., each of these variables contribute to the commonality: you build for offense because you destroy enemies before retaliation is a concern.]

Trial groups emphasize this commonality very well when tanks are encouraged to wear support sets and DPS individually peaks between 70-100k; that 70-100k parse is the trial groups best defense. The tank is actually a novelty SO you can deliver the groups best defensive power: their massive damage output.

In truth, I would wager IF ZOS reduced damage caps by another 20% over what's being changed in the 2.0 system than you find yourself on a slippery slope where you cannot adjust the resistance to damage mitigation ratio without breaking something. Massive offense also translates into personal time, players demand more value for their time. This again is illustrated by many trial groups on their composition requirements.

All said and done, PVE has a direct influence on PVP and its appropriate for ZOS to get a grip on damage output since it impacts more than the ebb flow of completing trials.

burglar

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

It's not just this game, it's every game. Feel free to Fact Check me in the 5 years or so of Forums available here.

About 80-90% of the complaints, whines, nerf it, threads and most of the subsequent changes for the player base are because "someone died" and didn't like how they died.
Only 10% are because, "I couldn't kill this guy" (and probably 5% of those are mine) after something I was running got nerfed.

Logically shouldn't it be like 50/50? For every person yelling "Nerf Sloads, Nerf Viper, Nerf Talons, Nerf Sun Shield, Nerf Overload, Nerf Off Balance, Put a Timer on DK whip, Nerf DOT's, Nerf Snipe, Nerf Nightblades out of Stealth, Nerf Drain Essence, Nerf Onslaught, Nerf Stuns, Nerf Immobilizes, Nerf Minors, Nerf Majors, Nerf Dragon Leap Time, Nerf the Necro Ult, Nerf Sheildbreaker, Nerf Elegant, Nerf Procs, Nerf Frags, Nerf Racial Passives, Nerf Bloodthirsty, Nerf Torugs damage, Nerf KnightSlayer, Nerf Oblivion Damage, Nerf Incap, (and those are just off the top of my head, lol)

There were a handful of defensive dealing with sheilds, heavy armor (but that was probably to slow the mobility of attacking toon wearing heavy armor by mag toons)


Is it the psychology? The nature of the type of player?
I think it's relevant, because I think many of the issues we are discussing in this game are essentially the culmination of 4 years or so of a Defensive Trend being added to the game. The movement changes (specifically the Immobilization nerfs) have probably more than anything quadrupled survivability and group cohesion resulting in zerg lag... but I realize many players, especially the vocal players with little interest in campaign objectives despise any movement hinderences...

Just saying, if you look, the trend is a real thing.

I think you're right.

To blame a loss on defensive mechanisms requires one to be capable of being accountable for that loss, which doesn't come until later, especially when the environment is competitive. When we lose, internally we deny we could lose and look to point out an advantage our competitor had that we didn't: we think "I couldn't possibly lose! I tried so hard!" because it takes the pressure off of us until we have 'grieved' for our loss.