Fake healers/tanks

mobicera

BlueRaven wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Another solution could be to make pve tanks (and healers) enjoyable to play. And not feel like they are sacrificing fun gameplay to do their roles...
Just pointing out an obvious solution.

Pve tanks ARE fun to play.
But most people get hung up in outdated Trinity roles here and seem to think all a tank does is poke and block.
Try running full group support in 3 dps try doing more, it keeps things interesting

If they were fun to play there would be a lot more of them. And the fake tank/healer controversy would be replaced with us needing more dps. But that is not the case.
Right now the answer to preventing getting a fake tank/healer is to make our own groups. (And even more obvious solution would be to not do dungeons at all but that is a distraction.)
The solution to the problem of fake tanks/healers in lfg can’t be to not join lfg, that does not solve the problem. It’s like suggesting the solution for bad internet is to not use the internet. It does nothing to solve that actual issue.
Right now there are few people offering to fill the roles of tanks and healers in this video game. The reason is that in this video game tanks and healers are not fun to play. The solution is to make tanks and healers fun to play.

I disagree, the reason you really don't see many isn't that they don't exist, it's that the good ones have no need whatsoever to pug.
They post in guilds and HM the vdlc with a group of competent players.

Massacre_Wurm

I just dont understand - who is "dps" ?
Dps = damage per second.
Role = damage dealer or DD.

So pls stop this "dps" thingy. Thanks.

Jierdanit

BlueRaven wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Another solution could be to make pve tanks (and healers) enjoyable to play. And not feel like they are sacrificing fun gameplay to do their roles...
Just pointing out an obvious solution.

Pve tanks ARE fun to play.
But most people get hung up in outdated Trinity roles here and seem to think all a tank does is poke and block.
Try running full group support in 3 dps try doing more, it keeps things interesting

If they were fun to play there would be a lot more of them. And the fake tank/healer controversy would be replaced with us needing more dps. But that is not the case.
Right now the answer to preventing getting a fake tank/healer is to make our own groups. (And even more obvious solution would be to not do dungeons at all but that is a distraction.)
The solution to the problem of fake tanks/healers in lfg can’t be to not join lfg, that does not solve the problem. It’s like suggesting the solution for bad internet is to not use the internet. It does nothing to solve that actual issue.
Right now there are few people offering to fill the roles of tanks and healers in this video game. The reason is that in this video game tanks and healers are not fun to play. The solution is to make tanks and healers fun to play.

I tbh think that the main reason there are this few tanks and healers is the "Fake DDs" several people already talked about in this thread.

As it is just impossible to carry a dungeon on a tank when your DDs are doing below 10k combined DPS.

On the other hand when you queue as a DD, your queue takes forever, so people take the obvious way and just queue as a tank on their DDs, which also works really well most of the time, cause youre really not going to need a real tank in most normal dungeons.

Healers have a similar problem with the Fake DDs, on top of just being barely needed in anything, as you can do nearly all content with 3 DDs and a Tank.

Jierdanit

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

I just dont understand - who is "dps" ?
Dps = damage per second.
Role = damage dealer or DD.

So pls stop this "dps" thingy. Thanks.

Well since they usually are the DPS of the group, i think referring to them as DPS is not really wrong lol

tuxon

Eso101rus wrote: »

Fake healing isn’t an issue as most 4 man content doesn’t need one, although I prefer the buffs and support. Fake tanking is very annoying and I find the ‘kick’ option very useful in this situation. Bad dps or dragging a pvp build into a random dungeon is equally frustrating. The solution is to form your own group with people you know or guild members. If you use group finder sadly you have to expect to be disappointed.

Exactly.

RND can be done without a healer. And vet dungeons...well vet dungeons are so much faster and easier with 3 dds and a good tank.

Gosh, I remember vFL hm+no death+ fast run we only took healer for no death. For vMoS hm+no death+fast run we went 3 dds...older dungeons like vBRF hm is a joke with 3 DDs. And we were like 40-50k DPS DDs and we melted the Amalgam hm, scary to think what 3 DDs with 80k+ dps are doing to some HMs.

El_Borracho

Fake tanks will always be an issue. Healers, sadly, are not essential (though I prefer to have one in group). Fortunately, fake tanks are only a problem in vet dungeons and a handful of normals, and they are only in pug groups. At this point, there is no way to prevent it through group finder so its a buyer-beware situation. Yes, its frustrating, rude, and annoying, but a noodle-waving 20K bow-wielding DPS posing as a tank who wants his Thurkovun helmet is not going away anytime soon.

The upside is there is a way to predict the likelihood of a fake tank. If its in a dungeon with a desirable monster helmet and one that is relatively easy to do, your chances will increase. Selene's, Fang Lair, and BC2 are notorious offenders because its where having a fake tank stands out. However, the harder the dungeon gets, the less likely you will see a fake tank. Think vSCP, vMOS, or vDOM. Downside, you're going to see way more fake DPS in those types of dungeons which are just as bad and just as group-killing.

Joining a guild is the constant refrain here. If you don't want to join a guild, you are left with 2 options:
1. Make friends with a tank
2. Become a tank

Jierdanit

tuxon wrote: »

Eso101rus wrote: »

Fake healing isn’t an issue as most 4 man content doesn’t need one, although I prefer the buffs and support. Fake tanking is very annoying and I find the ‘kick’ option very useful in this situation. Bad dps or dragging a pvp build into a random dungeon is equally frustrating. The solution is to form your own group with people you know or guild members. If you use group finder sadly you have to expect to be disappointed.

Exactly.

RND can be done without a healer. And vet dungeons...well vet dungeons are so much faster and easier with 3 dds and a good tank.

Gosh, I remember vFL hm+no death+ fast run we only took healer for no death. For vMoS hm+no death+fast run we went 3 dds...older dungeons like vBRF hm is a joke with 3 DDs. And we were like 40-50k DPS DDs and we melted the Amalgam hm, scary to think what 3 DDs with 80k+ dps are doing to some HMs.

Actually too much DPS can also quite hurt your group.

We did vFH HM with 3 DDs and 1 Tank and the boss really just spammed his mechanics at some point, like doing his shout without actually preparing for it, so you had to react in like 1 sec to seeing the shout and be fast enough to get behind a pillar.

And we are not even close to top tier DDs, so yea its quite scary what actual endgame DPS could do to that.

Thealteregoroman

Companions is LITERALLY the answer to this. My companion will be a better tank than the fake tanks. Can't wait for the update.

Starlight_Whisper

zvavi wrote: »

group with guildies. only option to get a group like you expect it to be.

Yeah but group finder promises you a tank and healer

Starlight_Whisper

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

The solution is to make tanks and healers fun to play.

But how would you go for that?

I love playing my tank. I really only play one character, and I have never done any group content as anything but a tank.

Sure, I have low DPS in overworld, but overworld is nice and easy so I don't need to have high DPS to get through. You want to make tanking miserable? Take any of these 100k DPS's suggestions to make overland as hard as trials. At that point, I'd only be able to tank dungeons, and then I'm not playing if I can't play solo.

What makes tanking and healing 'not fun' is the fact that we've gotten several 'features' lately that really make support roles feel forgotten. Healers were scared of the Pale Order ring since it would make them irrelevant in groups. Sure enough, the ring makes it easy to to things like vVH (at least for a DPS build), but now healers in dungeons are wasting resources not knowing the others have the ring. If the other members of the group are wearing it, all the healer can really do is throw out a few buffs and do their (poor) DPS. Now the changes to heavy armor are making it so tanks will not have the resistances they're used to anymore, which means that we already can't deal damage and now we're not going to be able to take it either... so what's the point?

A lot of support roles also avoid PUGs since we've had a lot of bad experiences. If a tank build is doing more than 10% of group DPS in a vet dungeon, then that tank knows it's going to be a slog. There are some people who have seen DPS that do less damage than the support roles do! Also if the DPS just pretend their parses will carry them so they ignore mechanics - you can't be healed through oneshots or just standing in stupid the whole time, and you do 0 DPS when you're dead. It just makes for a frustrating experience for supports since we don't have the DPS to carry the group if it needs it, and it just ends up taking forever. Meanwhile a good DPS with a fake tank/healer can usually just carry and nuke things before they're too problematic. And don't forget the speedrunners who race ahead of the tank, pull the entire dungeon without warning, and then get mad that the tank doesn't immediately taunt and pull every one of the trash adds and the boss together after the tank expends all stamina trying to sprint to catch up.

A lot of support I know don't like to PUG since they don't feel like dealing with the toxicity. They'd rather run with their own groups. That means there's even fewer supports in the PUG pool, which means queues will take longer unless more people fake the roles, which makes the people who stay in the DPS queue much more demanding, which makes...

Impostor syndrome is also an issue - it's hard to feel like you did a good job as support unless someone specifically tells you that, and you're not likely to get that outside of premade groups. There are very few 'good job' mechanics for supports, and the few that exist can be bypassed (like you can nuke Narilmor with high DPS and then it doesn't matter if you pass Tharayya's heal check or not). On the other hand, there are several DPS checks that cannot be bypassed unless you have the requisite DPS. That means that if a dungeon run goes well, it's because you had good DPS. If it goes badly, then the DPS (even if they couldn't make a DPS check) will blame it on the support for not buffing them - I've even seen people get annoyed that tanks aren't pulling enough DPS. Also there are some vet dungeons where once the tank goes down, it basically means the group wipes. So the dungeon fails and the support's at fault (or gets blamed).

Again, bad support can be carried by good DPS. Bad DPS will stall out a dungeon no matter how good your support is.

4 man dungeon dx were wrong way to go design wise. Should of had 4 or even 3 dps plus 2 support

BlueRaven

Well, judging by the responses tanks and healers are plentiful. And it’s standard dps roles that are hard to find in pve. Perhaps nerfing tanks further can eliminate non tanks entirely from lfg roles. Right?

It does not matter if you (a single player) likes tanking, as it is obvious that the vast majority of the player base does not.
It does not matter if you like the shorter queues, the non rotation play style, the way shields look, whatever. The player base has spoken and in pve, few people want to play one.

Over and over again tanks (and healers) have been nerfed and the result is fewer and fewer tanks (and healers).

The easy solution is to make them fun to play, and not feel like we are trying to fight something with a wiffle ball bat.

I have a solution but I don’t think it would be very popular and I am reluctant to say it anyway because;

1) Why should I put more effort into fixing this game then the developers appear to do themselves? It feels like they are just part time workers really. Look at these changes and think to yourself how much time they had versus how much actually changed.

2) This is the eso forums, so whatever is posted here will be ignored anyway. I think posting eso ideas on the Blizzard forums will have a higher chance of reaching the devs then posting anything here.

3) It is pointless as these changes are going to happen, and this tanks and healers will become increasingly rare, and the combat team will not care because they are too stubborn.

But anyway, here is my solution, have fun.

Stop balancing for PVP, because PVP will never appear to be balanced.

Overwatch, Mortal Kombat, Total War, Starcraft, any pvp game, look at the forums and all you will see are people complaining about balancing.
If there was a coin flipping pvp game and heads appeared 51 times out of 100 in one simulation, the player base would be calling for nerfs to “heads” or how tails needs to be buffed.

PvP will never appear to be balanced, the player base will always complain, so stop trying.

Right now the nerfs to heavy armor are largely pvp driven. So if heavy armor is the way to go in pvp, then so be it! Is it that big of a deal if the general population all wore heavy armor?

I say let tanks do great damage and balance things for dungeons and trials. Let pvp which is impossible to appear balanced, just go with what ever changes the pve side needs to do.

Is that particular armor set appearing to be “over performing” in pvp? Then the pvp players should go get that armor set, and NOT “let’s nerf that armor set”, etc. Simple as that.

Indigogo

Been grinding a healer through normal randoms to get orbs and it's been miserable. I can grit my teeth through low dps but fake tanks with no dps are an absolute plague.

Failed so many DLC dungeons even on normal as there wasn't enough burn to offset loose bosses one shotting everyone.
End up having to tank myself while trying to keep alive a bunch of 14k health light attackers.

Got orbs. Won't go near randoms again with a pure healer lol.

Starlight_Whisper

Indigogo wrote: »

Been grinding a healer through normal randoms to get orbs and it's been miserable. I can grit my teeth through low dps but fake tanks with no dps are an absolute plague.

Failed so many DLC dungeons even on normal as there wasn't enough burn to offset loose bosses one shotting everyone.
End up having to tank myself while trying to keep alive a bunch of 14k health light attackers.

Got orbs. Won't go near randoms again with a pure healer lol.

Okay yeah I had to do this too. I had to end up tanking as healer or switched to it. ZOS needs to give more love to support roles

Agenericname

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

group with guildies. only option to get a group like you expect it to be.

Yeah but group finder promises you a tank and healer

No, the group finder does not promise that. To imply that mplies that ZOS has the power to force tanks to assume that role. This is all voluntary. I dont owe anyone here my time. Its entirely possible, although not probable, to sit in queue indefinitely waiting on any role.

The group finder accomdates tanks and healers as it does damage dealers regardless of their ability or inability to do said damage.. And the restriction to one role only came after many "fake tank" threads. It was said then that it wouldnt solve the issue.

The issue is and has been as far as I can remember a lack of tanks in the queue. There are plenty of tanks in ESO. Everytime this thread pops up tanks, real tanks, tell exactly why they choose to avoid the DF and without fail DDs tell them theyre wrong.

linuxlady

Where’s my ice staff taunt? Haven’t played my magical tank in ages Dusted it off to do a random daily for my one account that was just below cp900 and my I couldn’t taunt. What the what???? Both accounts over 900 now but I’m surprised I didn’t get booted. I’m guessing they were glad to have someone doing some dps because they didn’t kick me. I think I might have kicked me for not having any taunts at all. Bring back my ice staff taunt!!!!!

tomofhyrule

linuxlady wrote: »

Where’s my ice staff taunt? Haven’t played my magical tank in ages Dusted it off to do a random daily for my one account that was just below cp900 and my I couldn’t taunt. What the what???? Both accounts over 900 now but I’m surprised I didn’t get booted. I’m guessing they were glad to have someone doing some dps because they didn’t kick me. I think I might have kicked me for not having any taunts at all. Bring back my ice staff taunt!!!!!

It got moved to Frost Clench last patch from all of the people who didn't realize the heavy was a taunt.

mustangmorgan31

You get fake tanks in queues because real tanks don't use the noob finder. I made the mistake once and during the first mob pull of Blessed Crucible it took the "DPS" 10 mins to kill them. I left the group after I saw the group DPS total. Not suffering through an easy dungeon that normally takes 10 mins.

Neiska

Just to add my own humble 2 cents, I claim no secret knowledge, or even experience as I have been playing the game now for a mere 10 or so days. I just wanted to add that new players are still a thing and I favor the tank role myself. So some people still are learning. And some of those people while new to this particular game, are well acquainted with the idea, concept, and expectations of such a role.

So if the term "fake tanks" means dps people who cue for the role, well I cant speak to any personal experience to that, yet.

But if people mean under geared, under skilled, or new people taking on the tank role, well I would ask how are new people to learn/get those levels.

There have been ups and downs in my journey so far. But I do use the group finder, as I don't actually know many people just yet. But ever onward and upward. But not everyone is level 50 with top end gear and hundreds of CP's. And how some randoms act in dungeon groups does make me wonder if it is better or worse in the future in the later stages of the game and character development. Personally I fear it will always be a "go-go-go" attitude with everyone expected to know every map and every boss by memory.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Basaz

It's an issue, but a minor one. ESO offers you to do what others can't. If a tank, healer or DPS aren't performing, then you can always alter your loadout and playstyle to pick up the slack. Instead people are bickering that others aren't good enough, that others aren't playing something that you don't want to play either.

I only play tank/heal in dungeons due to queue timers. As tank I sometimes swap to full DPS if the dungeon is super low and all the members are non CP, to speed things up. As healer I pull as much as possible and spam wall of elements. It makes every dungeon go fast enough without any issues or deaths.

You can't expect others to play the way you want them to play nor can you require it of them. You are always free to leave or try and vote kick. I doubt Zeni can or will do anything about it as it is a very complicated issue. What we have now is a pretty good system where, as mentioned before, you as a player can alter what you do in order to carry. That's good enough to me.

LashanW

Neiska wrote: »

So if the term "fake tanks" means dps people who cue for the role, well I cant speak to any personal experience to that, yet.

But if people mean under geared, under skilled, or new people taking on the tank role, well I would ask how are new people to learn/get those levels.

"Fake tanks" means players that queue for tank role with zero intention of actually doing tank role. Basically DDs that queue for tank role without slotting a taunt skill. You won't encounter them if you are the tank.

Asardes

Fake DPS <20k and not infrequently <10k is way worse because even the easiest dungeon becomes a slog fest. If I want to farm something I always spec as DD, back bar a taunt and queue as tank because I know 90% of the time I will end up with sub par DPS and waste time there if I insist having equipped my proper tank gear. Every base game veteran dungeon and vWGT can be fake tanked without any issues, and all the dungeons on normal.

Grandchamp1989

In my opinion Zos does what they can to make Tanking a miserable and boring experience so I'm not surprised.

In regular content it's so easy no tank is needed and everyone runs ahead of you and pull everything
In hard content you get nerfed every patch and they refuse to add quality of life improvements.

I'll be very interested to see if overall DPS is lower next patch.. If it is even more Tanks are gonna bail. Nobody want to sit 5 minutes pr. trash pack.

El_Borracho

Asardes wrote: »

Fake DPS <20k and not infrequently <10k is way worse because even the easiest dungeon becomes a slog fest. If I want to farm something I always spec as DD, back bar a taunt and queue as tank because I know 90% of the time I will end up with sub par DPS and waste time there if I insist having equipped my proper tank gear. Every base game veteran dungeon and vWGT can be fake tanked without any issues, and all the dungeons on normal.

Fake DPS is as bad as fake tanks. But a fake tank can make a dungeon impossible while most can cover for one fake DPS. Something as easy as Spindle 1 can become a nightmare without a real tank. Whereas a fake DPS in Spindle 1 will just make it take an eternity.

At the same time, I remember tanking a normal WGT during that Imperial City event last year. DPS was so bad they couldn't clear the last set of adds before entering the tower.

Goregrinder

El_Borracho wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Fake DPS <20k and not infrequently <10k is way worse because even the easiest dungeon becomes a slog fest. If I want to farm something I always spec as DD, back bar a taunt and queue as tank because I know 90% of the time I will end up with sub par DPS and waste time there if I insist having equipped my proper tank gear. Every base game veteran dungeon and vWGT can be fake tanked without any issues, and all the dungeons on normal.

Fake DPS is as bad as fake tanks. But a fake tank can make a dungeon impossible while most can cover for one fake DPS. Something as easy as Spindle 1 can become a nightmare without a real tank. Whereas a fake DPS in Spindle 1 will just make it take an eternity.

At the same time, I remember tanking a normal WGT during that Imperial City event last year. DPS was so bad they couldn't clear the last set of adds before entering the tower.

Yeah I'd say this is pretty much how ESO functions. You can get by with self heals, with tanking through damage avoidance, but in order to kill an NPC you always need to deal damage. And in ESO it's easier for a player running with high DPS to avoid damage, then it is for tanks or healers to soak damage but deal no damage.

Just look at solo arena's in ESO like maelstrom and vateshran...the whole point of those is to be DPS posing as a fake tank/healer to solo everything. Those can be completed without a healer, without a tank, but cannot be completed without real DPS. Veteshran even has a boss with a DPS check mechanic...I think you need to pull at least 11k or something to even down the boss.

Sidonius

What about those damn DDs who fake tank/heal and clear every mf in the dungeon and your job is to just keep up..
Do we do the standard "thank you for group" or is "thanks for the carry" more appropriate lol

Love those guys

Goregrinder

Sidonius wrote: »

What about those damn DDs who fake tank/heal and clear every mf in the dungeon and your job is to just keep up..
Do we do the standard "thank you for group" or is "thanks for the carry" more appropriate lol

Love those guys

Just hand them a business card to your favorite chiropractor, and say "Thanks for the Ride, you're getting 5-stars from me!".

El_Borracho

Goregrinder wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Fake DPS <20k and not infrequently <10k is way worse because even the easiest dungeon becomes a slog fest. If I want to farm something I always spec as DD, back bar a taunt and queue as tank because I know 90% of the time I will end up with sub par DPS and waste time there if I insist having equipped my proper tank gear. Every base game veteran dungeon and vWGT can be fake tanked without any issues, and all the dungeons on normal.

Fake DPS is as bad as fake tanks. But a fake tank can make a dungeon impossible while most can cover for one fake DPS. Something as easy as Spindle 1 can become a nightmare without a real tank. Whereas a fake DPS in Spindle 1 will just make it take an eternity.

At the same time, I remember tanking a normal WGT during that Imperial City event last year. DPS was so bad they couldn't clear the last set of adds before entering the tower.

Yeah I'd say this is pretty much how ESO functions. You can get by with self heals, with tanking through damage avoidance, but in order to kill an NPC you always need to deal damage. And in ESO it's easier for a player running with high DPS to avoid damage, then it is for tanks or healers to soak damage but deal no damage.

Just look at solo arena's in ESO like maelstrom and vateshran...the whole point of those is to be DPS posing as a fake tank/healer to solo everything. Those can be completed without a healer, without a tank, but cannot be completed without real DPS. Veteshran even has a boss with a DPS check mechanic...I think you need to pull at least 11k or something to even down the boss.

Absolutely correct. You can actually 4-DPS a lot of the vet dungeons, even a good number of DLC dungeons, as long as you have self heals, self sustain, a knowledge of the mechanics, and strong burn, all without a taunt. Also helps when you're in an organized group and know there is no tank or healer. I've done this with Scalecaller, Icereach, ICP, and most of the base dungeons. Obviously, there are some you want a tank for like COS, Frostvault, or Falkreath, but I wouldn't doubt it if someone pulled those off, too.

The problem is when a flimsy DPS gets in there when people are expecting a tank. Its the worst of both worlds.

Kurat

I've been playing for 5 years and I can't remember seeing any fake tanks in vet dlc dungeons. They are even rare in base game vets. Its mostly normals "problem". It takes real skill to wipe in normals. So fake roles are not the issue. L2p people

GreenHere

Every time this topic comes up, I feel the need to point something out... Most don't care, and many seem to disagree somecrazyhow, but I still think it's worth saying:

"Fake Damage Dealers" are NOT the same as fake Tanks or Healers.

What people like to call "fake DPS" or whatever are almost always people who just aren't good at the game. Does it suck to play in groups FULL of people like that? Yeah, of course! Nobody wants to sit in Fungal Grotto 1 for six hours while some noob StamBlade light attacks the mudcrabs to death with their green-level Restoration Staff that's 15 levels under their own. No one's having a good time when the tank is somehow doing 45% of the group's damage with just Heroic Slash spam. I get it. I've been there, and it feels terrible -- no question. But "fake" damage dealers are often new, or have irl issues, or they just plain suck at video games for whatever reason; they haven't done anything inherently wrong. (Shouldn't we help these people instead of shun and ridicule them? Or at worst just politely avoid them?)

Fake tanks & healers -- on the other hand -- are damage dealers who're dishonest in their intention to perform a role, and exploit the system to jump ahead of others. It's as simple as that. The system ZOS has in place says, "Okay, get together a person who can perform tanking duties, one who can perform healer duties, and a couple of people to dish out damage to anything that moves." But fake tanks/healers say, "lol, **** that noise, I'll just pretend to be support so I can get what I want quicker! Everyone else sucks anyway!" It's inherently selfish and dishonest; the very system they had to cheese to get into that group is the agreement that "I'll (try to) perform this role in the dungeon" and anyone who doesn't even try to perform the most basic function of their chosen role (read: simply slotting a taunt / just one measly aoe heal skill) is a ***.

The solution is super simple: Don't be a ***.

If you are a damage dealer and you want to jump the queue as a tank, personally I'm totally fine with that -- IF YOU SLOT A TAUNT SO THE BOSS ISN'T CHASING OTHERS AROUND THE ARENA. You can do the most important job of a tank with just one skill. Take something off your bar, you selfish ****. It's annoying & unnecessary to have the bosses running all over the damn place because you can't be bothered to do the thing you agreed to do. And it's stupid & selfish to assume others will do it for you, since you signed up to do it. Keep the boss still for 20 seconds, please.

Same goes for healers; if your DPS is so impressive that you "deserve" to get into groups faster than all the other players who want to deal damage, surely you can afford to throw out an aoe heal on your group mates now and then. It's literally the least you can do. According to everything I hear on the forums these days, healers are all but unneeded in dungeons anyway, so your job should be incredibly easy, right? Just throw out a heal now and then to keep your allies vertical til this is over, would ya?

To be extra clear, here: I'm not saying damage dealers who jump the queue by selecting the supports roles are totally out of line for doing so. Random groups can make otherwise fun dungeons absolutely suuuuck. We all agree on this, at least. Honestly, sometimes the fake tanks/healers are the only way some really bad groups are getting dragged through a dungeon! But I am saying that we shouldn't pretend that you're not essentially cutting in line to get what you want. You are. I am. (Yeah, I've done this many times! But I also do the job I signed up for in addition to dealing damage. I don't just utterly neglect the job I agreed to do. That's a **** move.)

If you're going to bypass the social contract you signed up for on that little role selector tab, the least you can do is make the bare minimum effort to do the basics of said job. It's not hard. (Or form your own pre-made groups if you want non-standard group compositions.)

Furthermore, we shouldn't be ragging on people who do poor DPS as if they're being scummy and dishonest in just honestly being... not good. Maybe try lifting them up, instead of putting them down.

TL;DR -- Lack of skill and/or experience =/= selfishness & dishonestly.

KaGaOri

Never would try to police someone else's build - anyone able to keep aggro and not die = tank, anyone able to heal the group if needed = healer. There is no reason why that couldn't be DD / PvP build with experienced enough player, especially in base game normals, which can be fairly easily soloed.

The real problem (at least for me) is the attitude of these players. They already shown certain level of disregard towards rest of the player base by willingness to cheat the system and skip the queue and it just snowballs from there. They could do the very bare minimum of the rolle they claim to be to support the group, but 99% of time, they won't. Instead they either not only won't tank / heal, but won't do much damage neither, unable to make up for lack of their respective role. Or they really are spades better than average PUG players, but instead of working with the group, they take off alone, speeding from boss to boss, soloing everything, while rest of the group gets CCd by trash mobs they aggroed along the way, can't complete quest, can't loot chests and potentially bosses, or take part in bossfights (aka the fun part of the dungeon) in any meaningful way.

Also this: Got DLC / any long or difficult dungeon as a random? -> leave. DDs getting oneshot without tank -> leave. Low damage since DDs die / have to self-heal a lot without healer? -> leave. Anyone asking for "tank" to take aggro / "healer" to heal? -> leave. People looting chests? -> leave. Player/s who's doing quest, stopping to advance the quest? -> leave. Rest of the group fighting skipable boss? -> leave. After all, healer's queue is less than 5 minutes and tank's is nearly instant and you wouldn't want to waste your time on these loosers (= players who spent 20 - 40 minutes (if DD) waiting on chance to run this dungeon).

Bad DDs are annoyance also, but 1) there are two of them and getting two horrible ones together isn't all that likely, 2) if there is trully terrible DD you don't have to think twice to kick them, since they are replaced under one minute (unlike healer, where finding replacement takes 10+ minutes, or tank where it can easily be closer to half hour of waiting).

Fake tanking / healing isn't just problem in normals either. Had fake healer in vWGT twice not long ago (one group made it even after tank left specifically because of fake healer, it just took lot of soulgems and forever, other fell appart on first boss after tank asked "healer" to heal ppl in cages). Also shoutout to templar tank with no taunt, no chains, no support set (but armed with trusty greatsword) we got for vet Ruins of Mazzatun pledge shortly before MM started. He died a lot. We all did. Last boss took nearly two hours before we got lucky with no ppl dead / people cursed / adds summoned / totem coming up piled together. Do you know how many times can 12k stamina MagSorc roll dodge to escape Mighty Chudan's spit balls? Not enough.