Five Reasons Treasure Hunter Should Remain Passive

Fennwitty

In patch 6.3.3., Treasure Hunter's cost was reduced in the Craft skill tree but it still requires actively slotting as one of the four CP abilities.

"Increase the quality of items you find in treasure chests." Slotting required, 50 points

Even if the cost rose above 75, below are 5 reasons Treasure Hunter should stay a passive, non-slotted ability.

1. Treasure Hunter impacts the whole group
   Dungeon and trial groups often form to farm set items. If Treasure Hunter can be accidentally unslotted, raid leaders gain a new job: Remind everyone to slot Treasure Hunter before opening chests.
   
   
2. Looting becomes a chore
   Having Treasure Hunter but forgetting to slot it when opening chests will aggravate players. Pausing before opening chests to make sure they have Treasure Hunter slotted will also aggravate players.
   
   
3. It’s not a meaningful gameplay choice
   99% of my time logged into ESO doesn’t involve opening treasure chests. A character slotting Treasure Hunter performs no differently in a fight vs. an identical character without the skill.
   
   At the same time, if a player's worried about missing loot they'll slot Treasure Hunter 100% of the time -- effectively limiting them to 3 active slots.
   
   
4. Worse on servers
   Requiring active slotting is potentially worse for the servers, and counter to the goal of CP 2.0.
   
   Chest calculations are made only when opening an actual chest, nearly always outside combat. By requiring Treasure Hunter to be slotted, you’d add X players per group who will change their CP layout continually to ensure maximum up-time of abilities.
   
   In a trial group of 12 players, times 4 chests, that's 48 hits to the server. Now if some or all players shift their active CP slots when coming to a chest (see point 1) that's 48 hits plus the additional rearranging before and after.
   
   
5. We’re used to it being passive
   For current CP on live, it’s 75 points -- set it and forget it. Players spend points on Treasure Hunter and know whenever they open a chest, in the world or in a dungeon, it's got the maximum chance of giving good loot.
   
   The current reduced price of 50 doesn’t outweigh the new hassle. It's still a cost investment, and by requiring slotting means players can spend points on it and (accidentally or not) never gain the benefit.

ThorianB

Most of the green tree should not require slotting, especially considering how expensive they have become. If i invest 75 points on live i am investing it in something else and receiving something for those points PLUS the passive. On PTS i just get the passive for 1/3 the cost AND i have to slot it. That is a much much worse perk than it is on live.

As the green tree is set up now, i am spending points in it because i have to/ don't have anywhere else i can put them. Not because they are great choices. I like the options on the green tree just not the way it is set up right now.

VaranisArano

So I need to sacrifice one of my few slots in order to have a better chance of finding the gear I want in a chest? Or I need to pause, in the middle of group content, "Chest, pls wait to swap passives." Forget about getting extra loot from the Imperial City chests!

That's ridiculous.

Is the coding on the Treasure Hunter passive so server-intensive that we need it to be limited only the players willing to make that sacrifice to slot it?

I have so many questions about the coding now.

PeacefulAnarchy

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I need to sacrifice one of my few slots in order to have a better chance of finding the gear I want in a chest? Or I need to pause, in the middle of group content, "Chest, pls wait to swap passives." Forget about getting extra loot from the Imperial City chests!

What are the other 4 green actives you think it's competing with when doing dungeons or trials?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the active/passive distinction is useless on the green tree, since all it does is force busywork on people. It doesn't actually affect power or ability. I just don't see why this one stands out in any particular way.

Always on:
Sustaining shadows (sneak cost)
Steed's Blessing (speed)

Maybe:
Treasure Hunter
Gifted Rider (overland only)
War Mount (This only applies outside of combat, I don't see its purpose, especially at that cost)

In combat:
Liquid Efficiency

Only on use:
Rationer (I assume duration is set on consumption, so you slot, eat/drink, remove)
Plentiful Harvest + Master Gatherer (mat harvesting)
Meticulous Disassembly (refining)
Fade Away (being a criminal in town)
Cutpurse's Art (pickpocketing)
Shadowstrike (Blade of Woeing)
Infamous (selling)
Friends in Low places (how does this even work as an active?)
Reel Technique+Angler (fishing)
Homemaker (when looting things, pretty general utility I suppose)
Professional Upkeep (only in town)

In a dungeon or trial you'd run
Sustaining shadows (sneak cost)
Steed's Blessing (speed)
Treasure Hunter
Liquid Efficiency

None of the others have any use there.
On overland chest hunting you'd run either Gifted Rider or Homemaker instead of Liquid Efficiency

I don't see any reason to ever not have Treasure hunter on unless you are:
Mat gathering and want to sneak
Fishing and want to sneak
Doing heavy in town looting and pickpocketing with the blade of woe (this is the only circumstance where the actives seem to force a real choice rather than busywork, though I think the choice is generally pretty obvious)

Note that in reality there's even less choice because you're not even going to have most of these available, and for some of them the details make actually spending points of them a dubious investment.

phantasmalD

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I need to sacrifice one of my few slots in order to have a better chance of finding the gear I want in a chest? Or I need to pause, in the middle of group content, "Chest, pls wait to swap passives." Forget about getting extra loot from the Imperial City chests!

What other passives are you going to run in dungeons? Like you don't need faster fishing or -1000 bounty gold there.
Also, if everyone uses the same system than you wouldn't be the only one person swapping passives at that moment, so why would you feel embarassed having the same issues as others?

Is the coding on the Treasure Hunter passive so server-intensive that we need it to be limited only the players willing to make that sacrifice to slot it?

I think the idea is that they want to keep the extra gold gained from these perks in check.
Because while these perks don't have to be balanced from a combat standpoint, they do have to be kept under control for the sake of the economy. To avoid gold power-creep.
Buuuut being able to swap them out at anytime kinda throws that all out the window.

Fennwitty wrote: »

• We’re used to it being passive
  For current CP on live, it’s 75 points -- set it and forget it. Players spend points on Treasure Hunter and know whenever they open a chest, in the world or in a dungeon, it's got the maximum chance of giving good loot.
  
  The current reduced price of 50 doesn’t outweigh the new hassle. It's still a cost investment, and by requiring slotting means players can spend points on it and (accidentally or not) never gain the benefit.

I'd argue that in the Live system it also requires "slotting". You have to put 75 points into the Shadow tree to gain passives that you may not care about just to activate Treasure Hunter. Or if you want to min-max then there will be times you won't have 75 points in that tree. So it's not hassle free even now.

phantasmalD

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Only on use:
Rationer (I assume duration is set on consumption, so you slot, eat/drink, remove)

Yeah, it's set on consumption. You don't get it retroactively (slotting after eating) but the duration is also not substracted if you unslot afterwards.

War Mount (This only applies outside of combat, I don't see its purpose, especially at that cost)

Btw, can we talk about what a lackluster "ultimate" star this is?
Is there anyone who ever ran out of stamina with max upgraded mount + Major gallop? Not even in Cyrodiil do I ever feel like I have to slot it.

It's utter garbage and a waste of 120 points. By the time you have enough CP to get it you won't need it.

VaranisArano

Thanks for clarifying some of the other slottable stars, guys! I think I'm mostly annoyed by the busy work of swapping around slots for benefits that used to be passive.

Again, its kind of ridiculous apparently ESO's coding couldn't handle my Silencer and Master Crafter logging into Belkarth, doing her writs, repairing her gear, vendoring extra gear, drinking Dubious Camoran Throne, pickpocketing/murdering a few people on the way out of town before starting her morning farming/chest run of Craglorn.

Like, that's all normal, fluid gameplay on my end, going from one activity to the other.

But apparently it wasn't so fluid on the server end? Judging by what they said about the Bastion passive, it makes me wonder how often those seeming passives were checking actions when they didn't apply. (My Stam Sorc very rarely has a damage shield active, but because she has a few extra points in Bastion, apparently every action got checked to see if there was a damage shield so Bastion could calc the damage reduction.)

The end result is that it seems to me like ZOS decided that my previously fluid gameplay needs to be broken up by swapping around the passives that apply to those activities (assuming I bother with the hassle) so that the server will only be burdened with calculating slottables for what I'm doing at the moment.

Maybe there's something I'm missing here?

Fennwitty

I agree many Craft slottables are of questionable utility in a dungeon right now. That speaks to a larger issue. Right now Treasure Hunter requiring slotting is an existing ability becoming more difficult to use, without apparent benefit.

No matter how many slottable options there are, Treasure Hunter is essentially 'required' when looting chests in a group. There's no horizontal about it. This makes it not a choice.

phantasmalD wrote: »

I think the idea is that they want to keep the extra gold gained from these perks in check.
Because while these perks don't have to be balanced from a combat standpoint, they do have to be kept under control for the sake of the economy. To avoid gold power-creep.
Buuuut being able to swap them out at anytime kinda throws that all out the window.

I don't think the economy's intended here. There's two separate non-slotted skills Gilded Fingers and Fortune's Favor that will passively boost gold from any source by up to 10%, and from chests or safebox by up to 50% Then slotted skills that improve decon results, boost fencing sale prices, reduce repair and wayshrine costs etc.

Economics wasn't the concern of the Craft tree. Unless there are adjustments elsewhere, these new CP skills give players more raw gold than we've ever had before.

phantasmalD wrote: »

I'd argue that in the Live system it also requires "slotting". You have to put 75 points into the Shadow tree to gain passives that you may not care about just to activate Treasure Hunter. Or if you want to min-max then there will be times you won't have 75 points in that tree. So it's not hassle free even now.

It does have an opportunity cost in 1.0. It also has an opportunity cost in 2.0.

2.0 adds additional steps above and beyond putting points into Treasure Hunter vs. something else by requiring it to be consciously managed.

kojou

I could say a lot about the Green stars, but my main takeaway is that it is overall underwhelming.

Too many points for things that don't do very much and I actually have a hard time with even wanting to bother with it.

lillybit

The whole green tree just makes me feel sad tbh.

I'm not going to swap actives every time I do anything. I'm just not. Not through any deep-seated objection to it, I'm just never going to remember.

I don't often go farming mats, I just pick nodes up as I see them going from A to B. Same with chests. When my food runs out I eat some more. These are all things I just do while I'm doing other things. Even if I think to swap when I see a node it's pointless anyway, because by that time someone else will have beat me to it.

I'm used to combat constantly being nerfed and I accept it as one of those things that'll always happen. This is just going to to make everything else that little bit harder too, so in the end it won't even be worth bothering with. Even with enough cp (and I'm not going to be too badly off) I'll still miss out.

renne

lillybit wrote: »

I'm not going to swap actives every time I do anything. I'm just not. Not through any deep-seated objection to it, I'm just never going to remember.

This is my issue. Everything that just happened passively in 1.0 requiring something to be slotted in 2.0? I'll probably slot and forget what I can and then forget everything else too if I need to change it, or remember when it's too late and then get annoyed at ZoS that they made a passive required to be active.

phantasmalD

Fennwitty wrote: »

I don't think the economy's intended here. There's two separate non-slotted skills Gilded Fingers and Fortune's Favor that will passively boost gold from any source by up to 10%, and from chests or safebox by up to 50% Then slotted skills that improve decon results, boost fencing sale prices, reduce repair and wayshrine costs etc.

Economics wasn't the concern of the Craft tree. Unless there are adjustments elsewhere, these new CP skills give players more raw gold than we've ever had before.

Yes, but what I meant is that if they were all passives than there would be a massive difference between 0CP and 3.6k CP gold gain/efficiency. By restricting these to X passives + 4 actives they can set a more sensible vertical ceiling.

But as I said, the decision to allow actives to be freely swapable throws that whole concept out the window and gets rid of any restriction the slot system brings.

I'm not really sure how to tackle this issue.

ThorianB

I can't get on PTS to look at the tree again right now but this is what i am thinking:

• If it has no use in combat, the cost should be reduced by 50% without reducing the effect and it should be passive
• Anything that could be beneficial in PVE/PVP combat( Steed's Blessing for example) keep the same cost
• Add in some stars people would find useful in combat make those slotable.

Maybe something like:
" When you revive a player in combat, you have a 20% chance per stage of reviving a second fallen player within 40 m of the first at the same time."

And

"Taunting an enemy will also taunt another 2 enemies per stage within 10m of that enemy. You may have up to 2 enemies taunted per stage for a total of 10 enemies taunted at a time."

Kolzki

I'd say the same thing for the Meticulous Disassembly passive. It only creates extra busy work before refining materials. I will ineviatably forget to change CP before refining a month's worth of raw materials or I will forget to hit the confirm button when slotting it on the CP bar.

NeKryXe

I'm confused about "Treasure Hunter". Doesn't it only changes the level of improvement of the items? I never noticed it to give extra items or something better than that.

VaranisArano

NeKryXe wrote: »

I'm confused about "Treasure Hunter". Doesn't it only changes the level of improvement of the items? I never noticed it to give extra items or something better than that.

Treasure Hunter improves items to the next level of chest.

So without Treasure Hunter, an Advanced Chest will have a blue set item and a blue non-set item.

With Treasure Hunter, intermediate chests have a blue set item and a blue non-set item. Advanced chests get a purple set item.

The only additional loot you get, IIRC, is with Master chest, since they get extra loot instead of gold quality, since gold quality doesn't drop in overland.

NeKryXe

VaranisArano wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

I'm confused about "Treasure Hunter". Doesn't it only changes the level of improvement of the items? I never noticed it to give extra items or something better than that.

Treasure Hunter improves items to the next level of chest.

So without Treasure Hunter, an Advanced Chest will have a blue set item and a blue non-set item.

With Treasure Hunter, intermediate chests have a blue set item and a blue non-set item. Advanced chests get a purple set item.

The only additional loot you get, IIRC, is with Master chest, since they get extra loot instead of gold quality, since gold quality doesn't drop in overland.

oh! I see now. I wasn't understanding it. Thanks for the explanation.

Iarao

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I need to sacrifice one of my few slots in order to have a better chance of finding the gear I want in a chest? Or I need to pause, in the middle of group content, "Chest, pls wait to swap passives." Forget about getting extra loot from the Imperial City chests!

That's ridiculous.

Is the coding on the Treasure Hunter passive so server-intensive that we need it to be limited only the players willing to make that sacrifice to slot it?

I have so many questions about the coding now.

there is an addon that does some swapping as needed, but zos put a 30s cd on swapping. called jack of all trades.

ajkb78

phantasmalD wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So I need to sacrifice one of my few slots in order to have a better chance of finding the gear I want in a chest? Or I need to pause, in the middle of group content, "Chest, pls wait to swap passives." Forget about getting extra loot from the Imperial City chests!

What other passives are you going to run in dungeons? Like you don't need faster fishing or -1000 bounty gold there.
Also, if everyone uses the same system than you wouldn't be the only one person swapping passives at that moment, so why would you feel embarassed having the same issues as others?

Is the coding on the Treasure Hunter passive so server-intensive that we need it to be limited only the players willing to make that sacrifice to slot it?

I think the idea is that they want to keep the extra gold gained from these perks in check.
Because while these perks don't have to be balanced from a combat standpoint, they do have to be kept under control for the sake of the economy. To avoid gold power-creep.
Buuuut being able to swap them out at anytime kinda throws that all out the window.

Fennwitty wrote: »

• We’re used to it being passive
  For current CP on live, it’s 75 points -- set it and forget it. Players spend points on Treasure Hunter and know whenever they open a chest, in the world or in a dungeon, it's got the maximum chance of giving good loot.
  
  The current reduced price of 50 doesn’t outweigh the new hassle. It's still a cost investment, and by requiring slotting means players can spend points on it and (accidentally or not) never gain the benefit.

I'd argue that in the Live system it also requires "slotting". You have to put 75 points into the Shadow tree to gain passives that you may not care about just to activate Treasure Hunter. Or if you want to min-max then there will be times you won't have 75 points in that tree. So it's not hassle free even now.

It's not total garbage but it's extremely nice and not worth anything like 75 points. It's useful:

a) When you make a new toon

phantasmalD wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Only on use:
Rationer (I assume duration is set on consumption, so you slot, eat/drink, remove)

Yeah, it's set on consumption. You don't get it retroactively (slotting after eating) but the duration is also not substracted if you unslot afterwards.

War Mount (This only applies outside of combat, I don't see its purpose, especially at that cost)

Btw, can we talk about what a lackluster "ultimate" star this is?
Is there anyone who ever ran out of stamina with max upgraded mount + Major gallop? Not even in Cyrodiil do I ever feel like I have to slot it.

It's utter garbage and a waste of 120 points. By the time you have enough CP to get it you won't need it.

It's not total garbage but it's extremely niche and not worth anything like 75CP. Its used are:
a) when you have a decent number of CP and make a new character. Until that character has an upgraded mount, War Mount is quite a decent QOL boost.
b) in Cyrodiil. No, I've never run out of mount stamina riding between keeps with a reasonable level of stamina training, but mount stamina can get low. What this CP perk does is mean that even after you've ridden halfway across the map your mount stamina bar is full, so you can't get knocked off your mount and stunned so easily if you get ambushed near your destination.

I only have points in it on my PVP main, and I think it should probably be more like 25 points to reflect a fair value of the benefit it gives.