Let's talk about crit in pvp(again)

Firstmep

So anyone who has been following the pts changes so far is aware, that once again Zos is nerfing crit across the board, mostly Beacuse they don't like how crit based setups are the de facto meta for pve dps.
While this is understandable, we can't ignore the fact that these nerfs will further erode the pvp meta, while not actually accomplishing anything in Pve, other a small damage decrease.
Meanwhile, in pvp crit based setups are pretty much non existent outside of nightblades already.
Come next patch you can run around with 5 pieces of med armor on pvp with 17% crit rate, I mean, come on.
These nerfs actually affect pvp much more adversely than pve for 2 main reasons.
1.Critical resistance: pve mobs don't have this Stat so in Pve we fully benefit from high crit chance/dmg, in pvp this Stat means that critical damage never reaches its full potential, it also makes it impossible to balance crit in Pve vs pvp.
2.malacaths band: I don't think I need to introduce this item to anyone.
Even if proc sets went away, I guarantee that this item would still dominate the meta, as it gives a huge damage increase, with virtually no downside, you can ignore crit and crit damage and even crit resistance(on your opponent) stats with this one item, often making you hit harder even on stat based setups.

So what can be done? I think it's simple, remove critical resistance from the game, that way crit can be balanced equally via available crit chance and crit dmg modifiers for both pve and PvP, without screwing up one or the other.

Qbiken

I'd start by removing the base crit resistance. Keep impenetrable trait as it it and leave it at that, but the base crit resistance needs to go.

Faulgor

Maybe. idk.

They're also introducing new sources of crit damage (axe change), so I'm not sure what their goal is.

But the more they lower crit chance, the more prevalent Malacath will become, the less useful impenetrable will be. When nobody runs impen anymore, it will finally be the time for Mechanical Acuity builds to shine! For glorious 5 seconds.

relentless_turnip

I like what the base crit resist did for trait diversity. I like not being forced to run 7 impenetrable. The only thing they have continued to nerf is crit chance. Over the last 2 patches I think I have lost around 10% chance.

I think the issue is malacath in combination with the crit nerfs. If you remove crit resistance it would be a one shot meta😂.

milllaurie

Okay, let's say an average person in cp pvp is running 3000 crit resist (being generous here, I tend to run 2800 ish now since malacath switched the meta). That is roughly equal to reducing attackers modifier BY 45% subtractively.
Let's say an average pvp player has some CP into crit dmg (at least for healing if wearing malacath), some of them are also running race against time which grants the minor crit damage buff. We also have people running neither of those things and we also have Khajiit nightblades with 100%+ crit modifier. Let's take an average of 70% crit modifier in pvp.
So an average player would crit another average player for roughly 25% critical damage.
25%. I have seen this number somewhere, have you?
The problem is, the crit is a chance to do so. And if the critical chance drops to only 20% (1/5 chance), that roughly means crit users are dealing an extra 5% damage, while malacath users are dealing an extra 25%
Tbh, on live I feel that only my Khajiit nb (brawl type, 100% crit modifier) can compete with malacath damage while not running it.

Let's wrap this by: I do not think malacath band of brutality is a healthy addition to the game. It should at the very least be changed to 15% and had some further drawbacks to the healing (like minor defile at all times).

Ryuvain

I do hate malacath band with a passion.

Do you either:
Build a lot of your stats into crit, with a chance at the damage and can be countered by impen.

Or:

Wear malacath. You get equivalent damage but reliable, can put stats elsewhere like wearing heavy or more sustain, ignore enemy impen making their stats useless, and also keep your crit heals. Also buffs proc damage.

One looks better than the other. Yes I'm mad due to being a khajiit sorc that I can't class change.

Nser

Come pts and u will see how magicka nb hits hard even with 3k crit res

Lughlongarm

Qbiken wrote: »

I'd start by removing the base crit resistance. Keep impenetrable trait as it it and leave it at that, but the base crit resistance needs to go.

Thisssss, PLZ ZOS!!!!!

Lughlongarm

Nser wrote: »

Come pts and u will see how magicka nb hits hard even with 3k crit res

Only class that can take real advantage of crit damage flanking star. You cannot balance around NB alone. If anything just get rid of this star, but base crit resist gtg.

Firstmep

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Come pts and u will see how magicka nb hits hard even with 3k crit res

Only class that can take real advantage of crit damage flanking star. You cannot balance around NB alone. If anything just get rid of this star, but base crit resist gtg.

Yeah nb is about the only class where it's actually advantageous to build for crit now.
But I mean they gave nb 3k pen when flanking recently, 10% extra crit dmg etc.
Like I said in my op, removing crit resist would allow Zos to balance crit for both pve and PvP, and yes, this would likely entail some nightblade nerfs/changes.

Jodynn

Just delete crit resitance completely.

relentless_turnip

Asking for crit resist to be removed is totally ignorant... I mean that respectively, but it is regardless ignorant.

Removal of base crit resists in no cp alone with no impen you could be hit by 50- 80% more damage. With 7 impen you would mitigate 13% meaning you'd still be hit for 37-67% more damage....

Besides being forced to run impen on all your armor again, the meta would essentially be nightblade one shotting each other.

The answer is to adjust malacath and make crit easier to obtain again.

zvavi

In my opinion, they should keep crit level the same, and just change brittle, from crit damage taken, to non crit damage taken.

I mean, their all "there is too much crit stacking in this game to our liking" is self served, catalyst, brittle, advancing yokeda buff, major force buff, what did they expect? that people will stack crit less?

Dracane

Could be done, if crit damage gets reduced a lot.
There will be no surviving Magblade gankers anymore if there is no crit resistance in place.

I find it all rather pointless. Crit will remain meta in pve as long as crit damage is 50% damage at base and will remain useless in pvp with abyssmal chances for them to happen.
Perhaps the extremes should be moved closer together. Crits only deal 20% extra damage at base, but chances are increase a lot. Of course the numbers would need professional adjusting.

So people can build for crit in pvp, without it becoming a total destruction and maybe one day we could actually go with spell damage and magicka in pve again, instead of having to stack boring crit chance.
As it stands now, crit remains the only way in pve, since the changes were too pitiful to make any change to the meta. While in pvp, they become even more redundant.

NagualV

There's a fine line between nightblades(particularly magblade) not being good vs being OP.

A lot of people hate nightblades/stealth/shade, think its "not honorable" and all this other nonsense that's not true, and whatever changes are made have to be weighed carefully because god forbid we start hitting hard, everyone will complain, leading to potential nerfs. And magblades dont need nerfs....

With that said, crits should be viable/fair/balanced......sure I would love my crit magblade to face enemies with no base crit resist lol, but not if it's going to lead to nerfs

NagualV

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Come pts and u will see how magicka nb hits hard even with 3k crit res

Only class that can take real advantage of crit damage flanking star. You cannot balance around NB alone. If anything just get rid of this star, but base crit resist gtg.

Aw cmon lol this star is cool......

ExistingRug61

Dracane wrote: »

Could be done, if crit damage gets reduced a lot.
There will be no surviving Magblade gankers anymore if there is no crit resistance in place.

I find it all rather pointless. Crit will remain meta in pve as long as crit damage is 50% damage at base and will remain useless in pvp with abyssmal chances for them to happen.
Perhaps the extremes should be moved closer together. Crits only deal 20% extra damage at base, but chances are increase a lot. Of course the numbers would need professional adjusting.

So people can build for crit in pvp, without it becoming a total destruction and maybe one day we could actually go with spell damage and magicka in pve again, instead of having to stack boring crit chance.
As it stands now, crit remains the only way in pve, since the changes were too pitiful to make any change to the meta. While in pvp, they become even more redundant.

Yep I understand where you are coming from here.

I sort of think that as long as base crit resist for players exists, it will be impossible for ZOS to balance crit chance for both pve and pvp simultaneously, as the difference in crit damage means the effective worth will never be the same. (Which also indirectly means malacath can never be balanced for both PvP and PvE at the same time, due to the differing opportunity cost.)

However to simply get rid of it would as you say lead to crit burst being potentially OP in Cyrodiil. And they can’t rebuff impenetrable otherwise armour traits become imbalanced. Likewise adding more crit resist to cp would simply shift the problem.

Which leaves: removing base crit resist and nerfing base crit damage by the same amount (Malacath would also need tweaking for this as it’s base penalty would be reduced). This is the only way I see it ever getting to a point where crit is of similar strength in PvP and PvE, without causing stupid burst in PvP. It would still be slightly off due to players being able to get crit resist from impen or cp, but at least that comes with an opportunity cost in the same way that building crit damage does (providing all crit damage and resist cp stars need to be slottable and not passive).

But I don’t see it happening as that’s not a palatable solution as it would just be another case of PvE being nerfed for the sake of PvP. Although if it was done it is likely that crit chance from sets, traits and mundus would have to be buffed back up slightly to keep them on par with straight up damage options so maybe that could make it a bit more attractive.

NagualV

milllaurie wrote: »

Let's say an average pvp player has some CP into crit dmg (at least for healing if wearing malacath)

Malacath allows crit heals?

relentless_turnip

NagualV wrote: »

milllaurie wrote: »

Let's say an average pvp player has some CP into crit dmg (at least for healing if wearing malacath)

Malacath allows crit heals?

Yup 👍

Lughlongarm

NagualV wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Come pts and u will see how magicka nb hits hard even with 3k crit res

Only class that can take real advantage of crit damage flanking star. You cannot balance around NB alone. If anything just get rid of this star, but base crit resist gtg.

Aw cmon lol this star is cool......

it is.
They can add a slottable star that gives high crit resist vs flanked attacks instead of removing it. Or any other kind of solution.
I feel much more strongly about base crit resist gtg.

relentless_turnip

So I just realised crit damage in cp has received a buff in the next patch as the highest crit resistance you can achieve is 2862. That's if you choose to slot the resilience cp and wear 7 impen.

I think it will be in a reasonable place next patch, but I still think malacath needs adjusting to not make it the better option.

The base crit resitance was a really good idea IMO along with the nerf to impenetrable. As it made all the other traits a lot more appealing.

BalticBlues

Firstmep wrote: »

Zos is nerfing crit across the board [...]
These nerfs will further erode the pvp meta [...]
Pvp crit based setups are pretty much non existent outside of nightblades already.
Come next patch you can run around with 5 pieces of med armor on pvp with 17% crit rate, I mean, come on.

Not only Medium Armor will take a hit.
Light Armor will do as well.

ZOS DO YOU FINALLY WANT ALL PEOPLE TO PLAY HEAVY MALACATH IN PVP?

How many people today still can use LA in PvP? 7%? 8%?
How many people today already run HA in PvP? 70%? 80%?
ZOS please read your own numbers. We need LA to get better in PVP, not worse.

If LA/MA crits will be nerfed big, Malacath has be toned down as well.

Ocelot9x

I think the best solution would be giving battle spirit a +5% crit chance since the nerf to crit was caused by it being too powerful on pve

Joy_Division

BalticBlues wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Zos is nerfing crit across the board [...]
These nerfs will further erode the pvp meta [...]
Pvp crit based setups are pretty much non existent outside of nightblades already.
Come next patch you can run around with 5 pieces of med armor on pvp with 17% crit rate, I mean, come on.

Not only Medium Armor will take a hit.
Light Armor will do as well.

ZOS DO YOU FINALLY WANT ALL PEOPLE TO PLAY HEAVY MALACATH IN PVP?

How many people today still can use LA in PvP? 7%? 8%?
How many people today already run HA in PvP? 70%? 80%?
ZOS please read your own numbers. We need LA to get better in PVP, not worse.

If LA/MA crits will be nerfed big, Malacath has be toned down as well.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they do read their numbers and it comes out to like 35%/30%/35%, which leads them to conclude all is fine.

Lughlongarm

relentless_turnip wrote: »

So I just realised crit damage in cp has received a buff in the next patch as the highest crit resistance you can achieve is 2862. That's if you choose to slot the resilience cp and wear 7 impen.

I think it will be in a reasonable place next patch, but I still think malacath needs adjusting to not make it the better option.

The base crit resitance was a really good idea IMO along with the nerf to impenetrable. As it made all the other traits a lot more appealing.

But it is also much harder to build crit damage now. 1 slottable star that gives 10% crit damage. Not to talk about building crit chance for pvp.

Firstmep

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I think the best solution would be giving battle spirit a +5% crit chance since the nerf to crit was caused by it being too powerful on pve

I was going to bring that up as my other solution, and yes, some amount of base crit in battlespirit could also help.
But if left untouched, malacath is getting comparably stronger next patch, when it's already dominant in pvp.
I understand some people saying that nightblades would be out of control if we let crit dmg go too high, which is obviously not what I want.
But as it stands nbs are already pretty much the only class where you can build for crit and be efficient.
And pls Noone bring up things like ranged magplar, cuz that playstyle gets hard carried by calurion.
Magsorc is in a wierd spot too, since you don't wanna wear mala cuz of crit surge, but it gives so much dmg too.

Sahidom

They've reduced Critical Resistance overall except through set benefits. The CP 2.0 has reduced crit resistance benefits and impen. had an adjustment last update or so. It's slowly shifting where you build into critical resistance more than armor trait and base when CP nodes offer upwards to +25% critical damage bonus (odd, Malacath equals 110 CP minimum benefits for 1 item slot)

Dracane

Joy_Division wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Zos is nerfing crit across the board [...]
These nerfs will further erode the pvp meta [...]
Pvp crit based setups are pretty much non existent outside of nightblades already.
Come next patch you can run around with 5 pieces of med armor on pvp with 17% crit rate, I mean, come on.

Not only Medium Armor will take a hit.
Light Armor will do as well.

ZOS DO YOU FINALLY WANT ALL PEOPLE TO PLAY HEAVY MALACATH IN PVP?

How many people today still can use LA in PvP? 7%? 8%?
How many people today already run HA in PvP? 70%? 80%?
ZOS please read your own numbers. We need LA to get better in PVP, not worse.

If LA/MA crits will be nerfed big, Malacath has be toned down as well.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they do read their numbers and it comes out to like 35%/30%/35%, which leads them to conclude all is fine.

Amongst good players, it is known to run heavy preferably.
But the majority of players are casuals or averages who either do not know better or care not enough.
Your average pvp healer and magicka player still uses light armor. They fall like flies, but the wearer numbers are probably high.

So yes, ZoS might conclude light is fine because many newbies use it. But they do not take into account how it performs. How often those people die and how much they kill/contribute compared to heavy armor users. I doubt statistics paint this picture. You would have to go out there and witness it for yourself. Light may be popular, but I can not imagine it performs well at all.

Maybe we should be happy so many people decide to wear light. Otherwise there would be no one to kill.

NagualV

Lughlongarm wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

So I just realised crit damage in cp has received a buff in the next patch as the highest crit resistance you can achieve is 2862. That's if you choose to slot the resilience cp and wear 7 impen.

I think it will be in a reasonable place next patch, but I still think malacath needs adjusting to not make it the better option.

The base crit resitance was a really good idea IMO along with the nerf to impenetrable. As it made all the other traits a lot more appealing.

But it is also much harder to build crit damage now. 1 slottable star that gives 10% crit damage. Not to talk about building crit chance for pvp.

Just wanted to point out real quick that theres a second slottable star that further increases crit damage if flanking, up to 15%....this leads to 25% increased damage total if flanking.

Lughlongarm

NagualV wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

So I just realised crit damage in cp has received a buff in the next patch as the highest crit resistance you can achieve is 2862. That's if you choose to slot the resilience cp and wear 7 impen.

I think it will be in a reasonable place next patch, but I still think malacath needs adjusting to not make it the better option.

The base crit resitance was a really good idea IMO along with the nerf to impenetrable. As it made all the other traits a lot more appealing.

But it is also much harder to build crit damage now. 1 slottable star that gives 10% crit damage. Not to talk about building crit chance for pvp.

Just wanted to point out real quick that theres a second slottable star that further increases crit damage if flanking, up to 15%....this leads to 25% increased damage total if flanking.

Yes, which already been discussed over this thread. This star is highly situational and probably only viable for NB when it comes to PvP.

NagualV

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Zos is nerfing crit across the board [...]
These nerfs will further erode the pvp meta [...]
Pvp crit based setups are pretty much non existent outside of nightblades already.
Come next patch you can run around with 5 pieces of med armor on pvp with 17% crit rate, I mean, come on.

Not only Medium Armor will take a hit.
Light Armor will do as well.

ZOS DO YOU FINALLY WANT ALL PEOPLE TO PLAY HEAVY MALACATH IN PVP?

How many people today still can use LA in PvP? 7%? 8%?
How many people today already run HA in PvP? 70%? 80%?
ZOS please read your own numbers. We need LA to get better in PVP, not worse.

If LA/MA crits will be nerfed big, Malacath has be toned down as well.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they do read their numbers and it comes out to like 35%/30%/35%, which leads them to conclude all is fine.

Amongst good players, it is known to run heavy preferably.
But the majority of players are casuals or averages who either do not know better or care not enough.
Your average pvp healer and magicka player still uses light armor. They fall like flies, but the wearer numbers are probably high.

So yes, ZoS might conclude light is fine because many newbies use it. But they do not take into account how it performs. How often those people die and how much they kill/contribute compared to heavy armor users. I doubt statistics paint this picture. You would have to go out there and witness it for yourself. Light may be popular, but I can not imagine it performs well at all.

Maybe we should be happy so many people decide to wear light. Otherwise there would be no one to kill.

I'd like to ask this of the more experienced players....

I currently run 2 heavy(chest and legs reinforced) and 5 light, and with stage 3 vamp and shadow skill line passives(cloak/fear) + some points into physical/spell resist, I achieve 21k phys/spell resists fully buffed. I also use wild hunt. I used to run 5 heavy 2 light, same build, but found I was giving up a lot of damage(penetration/crit chance) and the resource cost was too much. So I switched. And I find my current build still feels adequately tanky. Admittedly, I dont have pvp experience outside of the nightblade class, and although my goal is to learn to 1vx effectively, I still struggle to quickly kill opponents. I think one of the main factors is high health. Theres also issues with soul harvest/assassins will not always being reliable, but whatever lol.

So my question - is the reason heavy is so favored because of the high health? Is it because without sorc/nightblade mobility, the other classes simply cant stay alive in light?