How is the new Imperial (Red Diamond changes)?

Athan1

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

Renegader

Athan1 wrote: »

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

dont worry, just as the paid classes (necro, warden) are meta, the new best Race will be the one u need to pay for. thats right! imprerial.

With the Nerf to Nord and Orc and Bosmer, the by far most attractive race seems to be Imperial. 6% less:
Ultimate cost
Stamina Cost
Magicka Cost
Dodge roll cost
block cost

will be very good especially considering Imperial will also give 2K health, as well as 2k Stam.

the second option would be Dark elf, which will also be a solid option

---

If u didnt realize this is talking from a pvp perspective. I got no clue whats the best is pve. but if i were to guess, it would be either Darkelf or Orc for stamina dps and high elf for magicka dps

Tannus15

IntenseRenegader wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

dont worry, just as the paid classes (necro, warden) are meta, the new best Race will be the one u need to pay for. thats right! imprerial.

With the Nerf to Nord and Orc and Bosmer, the by far most attractive race seems to be Imperial. 6% less:
Ultimate cost
Stamina Cost
Magicka Cost
Dodge roll cost
block cost

will be very good especially considering Imperial will also give 2K health, as well as 2k Stam.

the second option would be Dark elf, which will also be a solid option

You're literally the first person I've ever seen claim imperial is the "best Race".

2k max health is no longer a very useful stat since the base health is now a whopping 16k with 2 red CP options to raise it another 2.8k. That means with no gear and no food, everyone can have 18.8k max health.
This means everyone can run lavafoot if they want, making that cost reduction a lot less impactful.

Weapon damage is widely recognised as more important than max stamina, which means orcs and dunmer are still better on raw power with both max stam and weapon damage stats.

I'm not saying imperials aren't good, you can build around their advantages, but this "PTW race!" is a special kind of ZoS hating.

Kurat

Imperial and Nord are equally good choice for pve tank.

katorga

Tannus15 wrote: »

IntenseRenegader wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

dont worry, just as the paid classes (necro, warden) are meta, the new best Race will be the one u need to pay for. thats right! imprerial.

With the Nerf to Nord and Orc and Bosmer, the by far most attractive race seems to be Imperial. 6% less:
Ultimate cost
Stamina Cost
Magicka Cost
Dodge roll cost
block cost

will be very good especially considering Imperial will also give 2K health, as well as 2k Stam.

the second option would be Dark elf, which will also be a solid option

2k max health is no longer a very useful stat since the base health is now a whopping 16k with 2 red CP options to raise it another 2.8k. That means with no gear and no food, everyone can have 18.8k max health.
This means everyone can run lavafoot if they want, making that cost reduction a lot less impactful.

Green single stat food gonna be OP. Wait, do they last more than 30 min? Maybe sustain drinks will make a comeback.

Imperial has the best sustain passive, imo. That cost reduction is for everything. It does not turn off while sprinting, blocking or misting. The only down side is the more sources of % reduction you have the more diminishing returns you get.

But max stat/damage are stats with no upper limits.

honey_badger82

Personally I do not like it but there are many here who think 3% extra off is soooo great. There is nothing you can do in 5 seconds that will get you a greater return than what the current red diamond gives you.
You may exceed one of those returns but not any 2 and definately not all 3. For example with the new changes casting: Rally, Stampede and Turn Evil saves me 343 stamina, bar swap and drop Extended Ritual for saving 145 magicka. Typically all this happens in about 5 seconds.
Off the old system Red Diamond was procced upon initial impact of Stampede for a 333 stamina restore (no other RSS lost yet) and by the time I finish Ex. Ritual and Rest. Focus I would proc Red Diamond again (with a 0 RSS costing light attack) for 333 to all RSS since by this point I will have lost some health.
So really in a span of 5 seconds with current system I would recieve 333 health, 333 magicka and 666 stamina. The new Red Diamond does not compare to it no matter how you cut it. Sure if I only used and needed one RSS type but all my Imperials have need for magicka for support on top of stamina as primary.
I think if they upped it to 4/8% it would probably be worth the loss of sustain to off RSS.

Athan1

Well yeah but the 6% reduction is useful for other things too, such as tanking or sneaking, not just rotations

honey_badger82

Athan1 wrote: »

Well yeah but the 6% reduction is useful for other things too, such as tanking or sneaking, not just rotations

You have to keep in mind we are not being given +6%, we already had +3%. The stamina saved from blocking for 5 seconds does not = the old return. Depending on the amount of attacks you block sure it might exceed the stamina 333 return but it gives you nothing of health you are losing or restores any magicka you used. If I casted Radiant Ward and Ext. Ritual the extra 3% only saves me 265 reduced cost vs a 333 return.

I get that it is applied to everything that costs RSS in and out of combat I just dont think the +3% is enough to make up what is being taken as this 3% is typically applying to just ONE resource while the current form of this passive applies to all 3 resources. Raise it to 8% total reduction then it will be more comparable.

FrankonPC

Athan1 wrote: »

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

In all seriousness, imperial will be really good if the HP recovery in the cp tree gets reduced. 6% cost reduction is huge for stage 3 vamp, making imperial the new nord imo. That won't matter if people are running around with 12k hp regen.

Scardan

honey_badger82 wrote: »

There is nothing you can do in 5 seconds that will get you a greater return than what the current red diamond gives you.

The reason I disagree with this quote is https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/consuming-trap

honey_badger82

Scardan wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

There is nothing you can do in 5 seconds that will get you a greater return than what the current red diamond gives you.

The reason I disagree with this quote is https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/consuming-trap

I use that skill at times however... not all boss fights have adds or enough to keep you going with that. Everyone seems to be focused on the already easy mob fights and not boss fights. Also that means you must have managed to apply that to a add before it dies while trying to tank, some vet dungeons adding more things to manage is unwise. Also, you must slot that as a skill, a class passive you do not. On my Imperials I am already strapped for skill slots, especially the tanks.

Almost everyone who is for the change keeps saying 6% is great, which it is if we were getting an additional 6%. We are not though, we already had 3% so we are just getting 3% more. If they made it +6% more reduction then yes hands down better.

Another reason I see argument on this is because I am sure most of those voices are trial runners and pvp burst players. Try sustaining on a vet DLC dungeon final boss when the DPS in your group cant burn adds faster than they spawn let alone attempt to burn the boss. Consuming trap is useless when nothing is dying. In a well oiled team sure an extra 3% off is more attractive but things go bad in PUGs on harder content much more often than good. I have done countless runs where healers or anyone had a synergy ability slotted because they were 1. selfish or 2. clueless builds. My hybrid Imperial tank/ dps stamplar has on more occasions than I can count out DPSed both of the groups DPS and many times those DPS were CP 810 as well.

Renegader

Tannus15 wrote: »

IntenseRenegader wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Is the Red Diamond passive performing better now? Are Imperials getting better at any role? They haven't been very popular since launch bc of how generalist they are, and people have only been choosing them for RP reasons.

dont worry, just as the paid classes (necro, warden) are meta, the new best Race will be the one u need to pay for. thats right! imprerial.

With the Nerf to Nord and Orc and Bosmer, the by far most attractive race seems to be Imperial. 6% less:
Ultimate cost
Stamina Cost
Magicka Cost
Dodge roll cost
block cost

will be very good especially considering Imperial will also give 2K health, as well as 2k Stam.

the second option would be Dark elf, which will also be a solid option

You're literally the first person I've ever seen claim imperial is the "best Race".

2k max health is no longer a very useful stat since the base health is now a whopping 16k with 2 red CP options to raise it another 2.8k. That means with no gear and no food, everyone can have 18.8k max health.
This means everyone can run lavafoot if they want, making that cost reduction a lot less impactful.

Weapon damage is widely recognised as more important than max stamina, which means orcs and dunmer are still better on raw power with both max stam and weapon damage stats.

I'm not saying imperials aren't good, you can build around their advantages, but this "PTW race!" is a special kind of ZoS hating.

im talking from a pvp perspective. if this is what you also thought, i will defend my choice, if you were strickly talking from a pve perspective (which it looks like), im not gonna argue against that , i agree imperial wont be best for pve dps

StarOfElyon

I really does seem like if a race doesn't have damage or damage mitigation they're the worst race ever.

Ratzkifal

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I really does seem like if a race doesn't have damage or damage mitigation they're the worst race ever.

Yep. And why is that? Because we don't have Mega New Moon Acolyte with larger reward and even larger penalty that nobody except sustain races can sustain on.
It doesn't need an actual set for that. It would be enough if there was some way to reinvest extra sustain into damage, for example a CP or mythic that lowers your sustain for more damage. It needs to be carefully tuned so no nonsustain race can abuse it, so it would have to be balanced around trial situations and the sustain there. But unlike the Morrowind patch, it needs to be 100% optional too.

In PvP it's a different story. More sustain means being able to stay in a fight longer, especially when it comes to stamina sustain due to breakfree and rolldodge.

honey_badger82

BTW, for all those claiming that Red Diamonds cost reduction scales with EVERYTHING that's cost resources.... it does not. It only reduces activated abilities you can slot on your skill bars not sprint, break free, dodge roll or block. Unless the character building website is not working correctly, it states only new CP is off then I see no changes in cost to the above mentioned abilities. After CP adjustments block costs about 1040 with or without Red Diamond being purchased.
To me this is just further evidence that an additional 3% is a nerf not a buff.

Athan1

honey_badger82 wrote: »

BTW, for all those claiming that Red Diamonds cost reduction scales with EVERYTHING that's cost resources.... it does not. It only reduces activated abilities you can slot on your skill bars not sprint, break free, dodge roll or block. Unless the character building website is not working correctly, it states only new CP is off then I see no changes in cost to the above mentioned abilities. After CP adjustments block costs about 1040 with or without Red Diamond being purchased.
To me this is just further evidence that an additional 3% is a nerf not a buff.

This is inaccurate. When it's only active skills the game says "health, Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate cost of your abilities". E.g. see Templar passives.

Vercingetorix

honey_badger82 wrote: »

BTW, for all those claiming that Red Diamonds cost reduction scales with EVERYTHING that's cost resources.... it does not. It only reduces activated abilities you can slot on your skill bars not sprint, break free, dodge roll or block. Unless the character building website is not working correctly, it states only new CP is off then I see no changes in cost to the above mentioned abilities. After CP adjustments block costs about 1040 with or without Red Diamond being purchased.
To me this is just further evidence that an additional 3% is a nerf not a buff.

You are 100% wrong. Taking your information at face-value from a fan-operated character building site is not a good idea. While I'm sure the webmasters try to emulate the game data as much as possible, calculations will not be reliably accurate. Players on PC have tested the passive in the actual game and have proven Red Diamond lowers the cost of ALL actions and the devs confirmed long ago that this was the intended behavior.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I really does seem like if a race doesn't have damage or damage mitigation they're the worst race ever.

Yep. And why is that? Because we don't have Mega New Moon Acolyte with larger reward and even larger penalty that nobody except sustain races can sustain on.
It doesn't need an actual set for that. It would be enough if there was some way to reinvest extra sustain into damage, for example a CP or mythic that lowers your sustain for more damage. It needs to be carefully tuned so no nonsustain race can abuse it, so it would have to be balanced around trial situations and the sustain there. But unlike the Morrowind patch, it needs to be 100% optional too.

In PvP it's a different story. More sustain means being able to stay in a fight longer, especially when it comes to stamina sustain due to breakfree and rolldodge.

I will have to add that sustain is very easy to come by in pvp due to the endurance changes. Really to the point that even full damage races like altmer and orc can have sustain as an after thought after just swapping 1 glyph around

honey_badger82

I did say the character building website may be off. I ran a test with my Nord warden: 30750 stamina took 68 seconds to burn through while running for a total of 452 stamina a second.
My Imperial warden: 31498 stamina took 73 seconds to burn through while running for a total of 431 stamina a second. Both have 5pcs medium and 2 heavy for armor, same passives and -9% to sprint. So yes it does seem to apply to them, I was wrong.
Racial passives must scale earlier in reductions as 13 is 3% of 452 not 21. However with that said it's still just 105 less over 5 seconds and I have more return than that already with netch and with rune focus so the savings of 105 to one resource over 5 seconds when I dont really need it (not a pvp player) does not = 333 to all resources when I DO need it.
So going off 1040 for block an extra 3% saves me approximately 350 stamina over 5 seconds (10x blocks) but once again to one resource. No health return and no magicka return. Since block only stops 78% of damage I am losing health I would like to get back any way I can and I use magicka for support abilities I will not see a return on. From what I have seen the new champion system will not offset this as all the resource return abilities must be slotted and there are other slotable abilities that are more crucial.
With the changes you are literally picking up a penny off the ground 1 a second for one resource while the old one gives us a nickle for all 3 once every 5. When out of combat the only thing you save on is sprint and to me a sprint reduction at all times is not worth what is lost. All of the others, break free, roll dodge and block are done in combat and not all done at once. I would have to roll dodge over 3 times back to back to get the same return but for the millionth time to just one resource.

Luckylancer

I am sure imperial wont be BiS for PvE DD. They will be worse healers than bretons at PvE. They may be good tanks.

On the other hand I think they will perform better than some other classes at PvP. At PvP they will benefit from 6% main stat cost reduction + ult cost reduction + off stat cost reduction. I deal solution would be buffing other race's non-PvE related bonuses like spell armor, fire armor etc. Redguard and khajit need a small but more significant buff tho. They are worse at boht PvP and Pve.

Kuratius

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I did say the character building website may be off. I ran a test with my Nord warden: 30750 stamina took 68 seconds to burn through while running for a total of 452 stamina a second.
My Imperial warden: 31498 stamina took 73 seconds to burn through while running for a total of 431 stamina a second. Both have 5pcs medium and 2 heavy for armor, same passives and -9% to sprint. So yes it does seem to apply to them, I was wrong.
Racial passives must scale earlier in reductions as 13 is 3% of 452 not 21. However with that said it's still just 105 less over 5 seconds and I have more return than that already with netch and with rune focus so the savings of 105 to one resource over 5 seconds when I dont really need it (not a pvp player) does not = 333 to all resources when I DO need it.
So going off 1040 for block an extra 3% saves me approximately 350 stamina over 5 seconds (10x blocks) but once again to one resource. No health return and no magicka return. Since block only stops 78% of damage I am losing health I would like to get back any way I can and I use magicka for support abilities I will not see a return on. From what I have seen the new champion system will not offset this as all the resource return abilities must be slotted and there are other slotable abilities that are more crucial.
With the changes you are literally picking up a penny off the ground 1 a second for one resource while the old one gives us a nickle for all 3 once every 5. When out of combat the only thing you save on is sprint and to me a sprint reduction at all times is not worth what is lost. All of the others, break free, roll dodge and block are done in combat and not all done at once. I would have to roll dodge over 3 times back to back to get the same return but for the millionth time to just one resource.

The problem with your way of thinking is that it assumes that magicka saved on casting self heals as a tank is useless and that ultimate cost reduction is also worthless.

The old red diamond also had fairly bad uptimes in situations where you couldn't constantly deal damage, while this new one will be 100% reliable.

honey_badger82

I had 0 problems keeping red diamond firing off when it should. Between taunts and quick light attacks it's usually not an issue. And I am taking the RSS saved on magicka and reduced ultimate cost into mind. At most stamina tanks will save maybe 200 or so magicka (not every 5 seconds for sure) with the new version. But your statement proves my point, 200 magicka saved every 5 seconds is not worth 333 back. When it comes to ultimate saved.... 7... just 7 points on aggressive war horn.
I am in total agreement if we were getting +6% reduced cost it would be superior but it's not. It is only +3% and in the overall arching scheme of combat saves less than the return with the old red diamond. Sure it's off everything you do but you dont do them all at the same time making that small percentage far less valuable.
It is also a concept the requires you to SPEND to see any benefit which the old one did not. What is the point of when I need stamina in having to cast an ability that just costs less and further drains my stamina when I could use a free light attack to get a small gain to all resources.

Rex-Umbra

Red diamond change is a nerf not buff.