Mace Changes

ol_BANK_lo

I don't agree with the changes to a flat penetration, and here's why. ZOS has just made them stronger and makes just another reason why people move to heavy armor and higher health. I have made other posts showing how people have been moving to higher resistances, higher health and still do a ton of damage. There are a bunch of reasons for this, but it has to change. And making maces now do flat damage means more damage proportionally against lower resistant foes...which gives another reason not to wear medium or light armor. I ran straight light armor on my Mag DK up until the Malacath Band, and then had to run light but a dmg mit set. I am not on the nerf Malacath band wagon per se, but a review of all heavy armor, high health and their ability to do damage. I think heavy armor and sword 'n board needs to be setup to not do damage. If you want to run heavy and high health, then be a tank - PvE or PvP. The mace changes to make people need to be tankier.

relentless_turnip

I don't understand how they're stronger?

They were doing 3640 pen to all mobs and 20% to whatever armor a player had. They are now weaker in most scenarios. I'm running swords next patch 👍

A player would have to have less than 11k resistances for it to be better.

ol_BANK_lo

Because you were doing 3k pen to a 15k resistant target. So against light armor and medium armor (assuming no Sword and Board) you had less penetration than you do now under the PTS. This goes along with why I think heavy armor and 1H/Shield needs to be reviewed.

relentless_turnip

ol_BANK_lo wrote: »

Because you were doing 3k pen to a 15k resistant target. So against light armor and medium armor (assuming no Sword and Board) you had less penetration than you do now under the PTS. This goes along with why I think heavy armor and 1H/Shield needs to be reviewed.

So someone with 15k or less resistances will now receive 300 more damage and everyone else will receive less. I have always played light attack builds I'm not sure my resistances have ever been below 18k. I'm certain most people will go swords as it improves healing too.

ol_BANK_lo

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ol_BANK_lo wrote: »

Because you were doing 3k pen to a 15k resistant target. So against light armor and medium armor (assuming no Sword and Board) you had less penetration than you do now under the PTS. This goes along with why I think heavy armor and 1H/Shield needs to be reviewed.

So someone with 15k or less resistances will now receive 300 more damage and everyone else will receive less. I have always played light attack builds I'm not sure my resistances have ever been below 18k. I'm certain most people will go swords as it improves healing too.

But that's my point. I also played a light armor build forever. I'm just making a point that by doing more damage to targets with less resistances, and less damage to those with more resistances, means it just gives another reason to run heavy with 1h/shield like is meta already. Just my opinion.

relentless_turnip

ol_BANK_lo wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ol_BANK_lo wrote: »

Because you were doing 3k pen to a 15k resistant target. So against light armor and medium armor (assuming no Sword and Board) you had less penetration than you do now under the PTS. This goes along with why I think heavy armor and 1H/Shield needs to be reviewed.

So someone with 15k or less resistances will now receive 300 more damage and everyone else will receive less. I have always played light attack builds I'm not sure my resistances have ever been below 18k. I'm certain most people will go swords as it improves healing too.

But that's my point. I also played a light armor build forever. I'm just making a point that by doing more damage to targets with less resistances, and less damage to those with more resistances, means it just gives another reason to run heavy with 1h/shield like is meta already. Just my opinion.

Fair enough, I see this as nerf to maces in general. I do understand what you're saying, I see them being less of issue to be honest than they are on live.

redspecter23

The % penetration factored in after all your other sources so the more penetration you had, the less effective the mace bonus was. They added the pen as a flat bonus not only to clear up this confusion but also clean up server calculation. Less % increases and more flat bonuses lead to less server load.

hakan

even though 3,3k pen is gives better damage comp to 284wd, this is a huge nerf imo.

also wd can be used as heal and i dunno does maj brut affect this bonus?

Edit: This doesnt change the damage against light armor anyway? since base stat was about 9-11k with light/med armor and every class has easy Major Resolve buffs which makes everyone have 15k-16k resist at least, no? 20% of it is 3000-3100 which is slightly lower than 3300.

Heavy armor on the other hand...its almost 4-5k less pen.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

redspecter23 wrote: »

The % penetration factored in after all your other sources so the more penetration you had, the less effective the mace bonus was. They added the pen as a flat bonus not only to clear up this confusion but also clean up server calculation. Less % increases and more flat bonuses lead to less server load.

Not exactly accurate. Maces were after active debuffs (Breach) but before your static pen (Lover, Sharpened, Sets).

Either way its slightly more pen on lightly armored enemies and considerably less on highly armored.

ol_BANK_lo

ne.ga.kurai_ESO wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The % penetration factored in after all your other sources so the more penetration you had, the less effective the mace bonus was. They added the pen as a flat bonus not only to clear up this confusion but also clean up server calculation. Less % increases and more flat bonuses lead to less server load.

Not exactly accurate. Maces were after active debuffs (Breach) but before your static pen (Lover, Sharpened, Sets).

Either way its slightly more pen on lightly armored enemies and considerably less on highly armored.

Thanks for the clarification.

sneakymitchell

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I don't understand how they're stronger?

They were doing 3640 pen to all mobs and 20% to whatever armor a player had. They are now weaker in most scenarios. I'm running swords next patch 👍

A player would have to have less than 11k resistances for it to be better.

Same here swords give weapon and spell damage which effects heals.

Here what i see

Mace= burst/full damage play style
Swords= damage and survivalbility
Axes= having high crit build
Daggers= need some crit or want to have the highest crit possible

Firstmep

redspecter23 wrote: »

The % penetration factored in after all your other sources so the more penetration you had, the less effective the mace bonus was. They added the pen as a flat bonus not only to clear up this confusion but also clean up server calculation. Less % increases and more flat bonuses lead to less server load.

No, it factored in resistance reducing debuff, penetration is a buff on you, not on your target.
In pvp maces are nerfed, most ppl easily run around with 25k+ resistances and those that don't die easily either way.
It's a huge nerf, albeit one that was needed.

stefj68

i will prolly be using mace/maces for my solo build and trashes, but use sword/swords for bosses
i like the change... honestly

Dracane

This is actually a huge buff to maces against everything but heavy armor builds.
You would need over 16k physical resistance after breech on live for 3,3k penetration to happen, which is utterly impossible for everyone who does not explicitly build for resistances.

So unless we are talking about Werewolves and Nords with the Lady Mundus, this is a pretty buff (yet again) to melee weapons. And Werewolves even lose all their resistance with the coming patch, so yea.

Big buff to maces there, while swords are only better because swords never actually gave 6% thanks to how poorly % damage scales. Was more like 4%.

ExistingRug61

Dracane wrote: »

This is actually a huge buff to maces against everything but heavy armor builds.

I think this was kind of the point OP was trying to make.
Maces (while overall generally buffed) have been changed in such a way that their use encourages opposing players to utilise heavy armour builds, which are already considered a problem in PvP.

Dracane wrote: »

Big buff to maces there, while swords are only better because swords never actually gave 6% thanks to how poorly % damage scales. Was more like 4%.

Although with the current changes, if swords still had their % bonus it would be comparatively better than in the past, due to the removal or reduction of so many other % boosts in this and recent updates, like the CP % boosts being reduced in favour of flat stats (which a sword % buff would amplify), and Berserk being reduced. Not that I am unhappy with the change to flat damage though - it is cleaner, easier to compare, and also expands their use to healing, and is possibly stronger than before.

Dracane

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

This is actually a huge buff to maces against everything but heavy armor builds.

I think this was kind of the point OP was trying to make.
Maces (while overall generally buffed) have been changed in such a way that their use encourages opposing players to utilise heavy armour builds, which are already considered a problem in PvP.

Dracane wrote: »

Big buff to maces there, while swords are only better because swords never actually gave 6% thanks to how poorly % damage scales. Was more like 4%.

Although with the current changes, if swords still had their % bonus it would be comparatively better than in the past, due to the removal or reduction of so many other % boosts in this and recent updates, like the CP % boosts being reduced in favour of flat stats (which a sword % buff would amplify), and Berserk being reduced. Not that I am unhappy with the change to flat damage though - it is cleaner, easier to compare, and also expands their use to healing, and is possibly stronger than before.

Nothing has changed about % damage, at least not in no CP.
Destruction staff still only grants 6% instead of 8%. Even without CP bonuses, % damage scales poorly by default.
Either way, I think it's time to change penetrating magic to global spell penetration to close the gap between melee and ranged weapons.