MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »They want you to make builds with this system, but I don't really think that's how they designed it. They really just separated the classes. Healers have ~4 skills to choose from, DPS have ~7 skills to choose from (that are any good), and tanks have ~5 skills to choose from in blue. As it sits, it's basically "here's a bunch of bad skills, and a couple good ones." Or at the very least, all decent skills but some are just so much better than the others that there's just no way you'd pick the other options. It would be nice to have all the options for your role and be able to pick some stuff so you can be an off tank, or an off healer, but if you do that now, you're going to be severely suboptimal.
However they have stated that they will add more skills over time to this system. I'm not a fan of how they compartmentalized it so ALL of the useful skills for combat are in one line. I wish they had taken the green skills and spread them out to all the skill lines, and then used green for something else or even spread out some damage and some tanking skills into green and red, since it's like... Green isn't really useful? It's flavorful, and has some really fun sounding skills, but those are pretty much all filler and not really useful in any end-game content unless you're just trying to grind out gold.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »
Thats the entire point. Choice.
There is very little choice involved when you add combat related bonuses in every tree. The fact that green is 100% craft and utility focussed is awesome because you're no longer penalized for going after somewhat useless stars for combat related actions. This adds more customization, not less.
The last time I changed my CP was 3+ years ago. With the new system I'll swap things in and out for the given ocassion for a lot of different scenarios, just like our current skill bars.
Like that juicy 7% healing received from damage done or kills or w.e it was. That is solid for solo content like VMA, but I'm not going to sacrifice dps for that in group content with a healer.
Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.
I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »They want you to make builds with this system, but I don't really think that's how they designed it. They really just separated the classes. Healers have ~4 skills to choose from, DPS have ~7 skills to choose from (that are any good), and tanks have ~5 skills to choose from in blue. As it sits, it's basically "here's a bunch of bad skills, and a couple good ones." Or at the very least, all decent skills but some are just so much better than the others that there's just no way you'd pick the other options. It would be nice to have all the options for your role and be able to pick some stuff so you can be an off tank, or an off healer, but if you do that now, you're going to be severely suboptimal.
However they have stated that they will add more skills over time to this system. I'm not a fan of how they compartmentalized it so ALL of the useful skills for combat are in one line. I wish they had taken the green skills and spread them out to all the skill lines, and then used green for something else or even spread out some damage and some tanking skills into green and red, since it's like... Green isn't really useful? It's flavorful, and has some really fun sounding skills, but those are pretty much all filler and not really useful in any end-game content unless you're just trying to grind out gold.
Thats the entire point. Choice.
There is very little choice involved when you add combat related bonuses in every tree. The fact that green is 100% craft and utility focussed is awesome because you're no longer penalized for going after somewhat useless stars for combat related actions. This adds more customization, not less.
The last time I changed my CP was 3+ years ago. With the new system I'll swap things in and out for the given ocassion for a lot of different scenarios, just like our current skill bars.
Like that juicy 7% healing received from damage done or kills or w.e it was. That is solid for solo content like VMA, but I'm not going to sacrifice dps for that in group content with a healer.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »
Ya I can agree somewhat with what both of you are saying but I still just think theres too much packed into the blue tree. And then adding defense and offense in the same tree, and splitting specs in a way, all in the same tree. Idk im so torn with this looking to the future, part of me thinks it could diversify things, but the other part of me can see how it will do the opposite. And right now Im leaning on it doing the opposite. But I do like the system itself and find it very interesting.
Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.
I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.
Well I am a bit concerned with it since I play solo. I like having a build that can equally stand up against most builds. Obviousness being ready for everything cant happen, but this will cut that in half. Now, while its hard to deal with a defile dot dk, next patch it will be harder to deal with them and harder to deal with a bunch of other builds, meanwhile easier to deal with some other ones. Its pointless and random for no reason.
Its crazy to put offense and defense in the same tree. No matter how you slice it you're losing too much. And you shouldnt have to, yes I can get on board with losing some things, or choosing between them, but not everything thats there.
But I agree with you about the amount of CP, that was concerning to me. I dont know the answer to that one. On one hand people have had all this CP theyve been gaining and never using, on the other hand if they dont make CP WAAAY easier to get then this is a big problem.
In fact, i think pve players would probably gain CP much faster than pvp players, am i right or wrong about that? In pvp you gain XP but i cant imagine its as much as pve players get running dungeons, killing mobs, questing, and doing trials throughout the day. I could be wrong but ive been curious about that.
FrancisCrawford wrote: »It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.
I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.
That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.
But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.
If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.
Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.
EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.
MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »
Ya I can agree somewhat with what both of you are saying but I still just think theres too much packed into the blue tree. And then adding defense and offense in the same tree, and splitting specs in a way, all in the same tree. Idk im so torn with this looking to the future, part of me thinks it could diversify things, but the other part of me can see how it will do the opposite. And right now Im leaning on it doing the opposite. But I do like the system itself and find it very interesting.
Exactly. I'm afraid that having all the combat skills shoved into one skill tree will both pigeonhole the devs, causing bland skills, and will also inevitably cause power creep.
Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.
I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.
Well I am a bit concerned with it since I play solo. I like having a build that can equally stand up against most builds. Obviousness being ready for everything cant happen, but this will cut that in half. Now, while its hard to deal with a defile dot dk, next patch it will be harder to deal with them and harder to deal with a bunch of other builds, meanwhile easier to deal with some other ones. Its pointless and random for no reason.
Its crazy to put offense and defense in the same tree. No matter how you slice it you're losing too much. And you shouldnt have to, yes I can get on board with losing some things, or choosing between them, but not everything thats there.
But I agree with you about the amount of CP, that was concerning to me. I dont know the answer to that one. On one hand people have had all this CP theyve been gaining and never using, on the other hand if they dont make CP WAAAY easier to get then this is a big problem.
In fact, i think pve players would probably gain CP much faster than pvp players, am i right or wrong about that? In pvp you gain XP but i cant imagine its as much as pve players get running dungeons, killing mobs, questing, and doing trials throughout the day. I could be wrong but ive been curious about that.
I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.
redspecter23 wrote: »It's clear to me that as far as the blue tree goes, they want you to choose either healing or damage or defense. Potentially swap in here or there for particular fights. They don't want heavy dps toons to also have high defense and they don't want tanks to deal higher damage.
In theory, this works well enough. You could even have a dps hotswap to a healer with a few changes to your cp slots. It doesn't work in reality as you'd need about 3k cp to have enough to take all the passives you'd want as well as the appropriate slotted skills for dps and healing. Hotswapping for situational use simply won't be a thing until you have 2500+ cp. What players will do is swap anyway, but just eat the 3000 gold cost for doing so if they really feel the need to make changes.
I'm sitting here thinking about skills like the one that removes stamina costs from mounts. Ok, that's 250 points, so 750 total points. If I can gain one cp per day that's only about 2 years away before I can hotswap it for situational use. That's a huge breakdown point for the system. It adds options... with a 2 year cooldown once you have your key skills. A yearlong wait so that I can have a CHANCE at not consuming a soul gem upon reviving. Is that an out of season April Fool's Joke? Even if you did unlock that, please tell me the situation where you actually slot that skill for one of your 4 slots?
FrancisCrawford wrote: »It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.
I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.
That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.
But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.
If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.
Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.
EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.
but isnt that why we give our input here? which is why im asking for other peoples input as well. Is that not what the pts is supposed to before, granted they rarely listen to players, but in theory? Thats why I was suggesting something thats not crazy and seeing what other people think about it. Ya were all going to have less than ideal builds, but i think giving the blue tree one more slot, considering how many skills there are, or moving some skills, or changing a couple slottable skills to passives, would not be too bad. Im mainly curious what people think about that. But ya, trust me, I agree and know things are going to be very different when this hits. But like i said, thats zos. Drastic, sweeping, changes opposed to small incremental ones.
WiredandTired wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.
I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.
That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.
But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.
If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.
Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.
EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.
but isnt that why we give our input here? which is why im asking for other peoples input as well. Is that not what the pts is supposed to before, granted they rarely listen to players, but in theory? Thats why I was suggesting something thats not crazy and seeing what other people think about it. Ya were all going to have less than ideal builds, but i think giving the blue tree one more slot, considering how many skills there are, or moving some skills, or changing a couple slottable skills to passives, would not be too bad. Im mainly curious what people think about that. But ya, trust me, I agree and know things are going to be very different when this hits. But like i said, thats zos. Drastic, sweeping, changes opposed to small incremental ones.
Hey ESO Lags,
Francis is correct and it all likelihood this is going to happen. I'm not sure how many patch cycles you've been through, but it's been in recent history that valid, actionable, and constructive feedback has been submitted for PTS patch cycles that gets ignored and bugs/badly thought out features are put into the game regardless. If they want to roll out a bad update they will do so. The only change that was rolled back or completely shelved was the light/heavy attack change.
I've combed through the PTS information and yes I've come to the same conclusions that the CP system is incredibly bloated, unintuitive, and runs contrary to the goals and marketing put forth so far. The impression I got from the livestream was that the majority of stars were optional/slottable, with many stars that could be chosen and slotted, but the reality is that there are many stars that are always on passives with gigantic point sinks.
So what will that mean for CP PVP and PvE, it will mean that the vast majority who have already hit the cap and gained max power are effectively reset to 1/3rd of the accessible power/utility, with a smaller minority who are way over the cap that won't need to choose between damage, survivability, and utility. Why is this? It's because they stated that our CP levels will translate 1:1 to the new CP system, we will not be auto leveled to the true vertical progression system's end which is calculated to 2700 total CP. There's still no word even if the grind to 2700 CP will be shortened, so far they've said that 1200+ cp leveling will be the same as live, which will be a herculean grind for anybody that's casual.
The folks who have figured it out need to get the word out and create as much noise as the light/heavy attack change as this is as equally bad of a change.
I love this change. With the old CP system, you had to build in a balanced manner, all green cp helped sustain, all red cp helped resistances, and all blue cp helped damage. You couldn't build say, a glass cannon, because you still have all the red cp to put toward reducing damage taken. Having all the resistance and damage and healing passives together means builds need to have trade-offs rather than 'i can do everything' builds. That opportunity cost will make for more interesting choices I feel and more varied builds.
MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.
Its very concerning. Im gonna look more into it as well but from my first pass over it just seems like, with all the damage in the game right now, you shouldnt have to sacrifice a lot of defense for damage. Especially something like crit resist, that should not, i repeat should NOT, be a slottable skill. Some builds literally hit crits so hard coming out of stealth with an ult dump. Bit thats what im talking about, solo is gonna get hit the hardest with this patch.
If I dont grab crit resist, and I get into a 1v3 with a ganker who has pumped crit damage and damage in general, hes gonna run away and come back and ult dump me from stealth and kill me with my 1500 crit resist. And it could be like that with any build with a specialty, and there are a lot, vs what you couldnt take. Which again, is why solo will get hit hardest here. You dont have someone to give you a buff to reduce damage from something so you can leave that CP skill behind and go for another, you just have yourself. I know they cant balance the game around solo players but they could try to at least act like we exist and not *** on us with every change.
You will get balance by slotting some damage and some defense passives then, whereas a tank will slot all defensive and glass cannons would be all offensive. Just means a hybrid build won't output as much damage or be as durable as the extremes which is something pvp probably needs a lot more of, distinct builds.
JayKwellen wrote: »MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.
Its very concerning. Im gonna look more into it as well but from my first pass over it just seems like, with all the damage in the game right now, you shouldnt have to sacrifice a lot of defense for damage. Especially something like crit resist, that should not, i repeat should NOT, be a slottable skill. Some builds literally hit crits so hard coming out of stealth with an ult dump. Bit thats what im talking about, solo is gonna get hit the hardest with this patch.
If I dont grab crit resist, and I get into a 1v3 with a ganker who has pumped crit damage and damage in general, hes gonna run away and come back and ult dump me from stealth and kill me with my 1500 crit resist. And it could be like that with any build with a specialty, and there are a lot, vs what you couldnt take. Which again, is why solo will get hit hardest here. You dont have someone to give you a buff to reduce damage from something so you can leave that CP skill behind and go for another, you just have yourself. I know they cant balance the game around solo players but they could try to at least act like we exist and not *** on us with every change.
I'm pretty worried too, for most of the same reasons. I also play either solo or with my partner, and the now limiting nature of CP has left me with this kind of ominous sinking feeling.
I also get the impression that the unequal effect this will have on the classes wasn't considered at all. Taken from my own perspective as a non-proc/non-snipe/non-gank regular boring stat-build stamblade:
As it currently stands, playing a stat based build can already be troublesome. With everyone seemingly wearing heavy armor and stacking health trying to get a kill can all too often feel like a chore. Trying to kill anyone who knows how to play was already difficult, as a nightblades burst is probably the easiest to anticipate and avoid in the game.
Now everyone has an additional 15% damage reduction, and another 10% if they wear heavy armor, and thousands more base health, and another 10% if they take the CP that gives mitigation when CC immune (which means always).
Couple that with the fact that most of us will probably (although I can't verify this, it just appears to be the case) lose damage overall with the new CP's and it's going to make things...interesting. It would appear we will also be losing survivability thanks to the ways the trees work so, excellent. I can go from squishy to even squishier with worse damage. Meanwhile that 40k health stamden in heavy armor still has better burst than me, but whatever. I guess I could roll dodge more but hey, I'm already in 5 well-fitted, except now it looks like I might have to give up the 1k crit resist I get from CP too!
The more I write the worse I start to feel, so I think I should probably stop.
Honestly, the concept of 1vX'er involves having a 'do everything' build. The imbalance required to allow that kind of a build to excel without having to choose areas to excel in vs areas to be weak in is part of the pvp problem. Unkillable builds with seemingly endless sustain that can kill whoever they want before healing back to full without issue, an exaggeration for sure but the new system will force those builds to focus into more precise builds.
You will get balance by slotting some damage and some defense passives then, whereas a tank will slot all defensive and glass cannons would be all offensive. Just means a hybrid build won't output as much damage or be as durable as the extremes which is something pvp probably needs a lot more of, distinct builds.
I agree that that could be good but i dissagree with how their going about it. They dont need to sacrifice some playstlyles for no reason. They dont need to tip the scales even more than they already are. Theres no reason to have crit resistance here. Theres no reason to stuff the blue tree with so much for damage and survival. I mean FFS, the red tree has health, whats more fitting for survial that health?
Idk, ill say it again. My biggest concern is that were in a meta that is full of extremely hard hitting builds. Gank builds that hit like trucks. Wardens, necros, werewolves, and others, that have 40k+ health and hit like trucks. Magdens that are pushing 50k health and regularly kill people. In a meta with so much damage and survival I am concerned about what happens when they remove the 40% damage reduction that CP gives up. People are still going to be able to hit extremely hard, maybe even harder.
So ill use this as an example. Right now I have a 40% damage reduction, with my CP, to direct damage physical attacks. Also an extra 800 crit resistance. Next update, if i spend the points, at a base I will have a 5% damage reduction to martial attacks aka physical damage attacks. 5% and thats it. Now you can say, but the damage CP has gone down as well, but its still more. Crit damage, single target damage, max stam, max stam, weapon damage, weapon damage, crit, crit. People are still going to hit extremely hard.
So now im left with 5% damage reduction and some choices. As a solo player, do I put crit resist, a MUST for pvp, and another 10% damage reduction from dot damage/aoe damage/single target damage? Still that only gives me 15% damage reduction towards what I now have a 40% damage reduction to, but its better than nothing and hopefully could be a little more balanced with the changes they've made, but i still think people will hit harder next update.
So thats my 4 slots taken. Crit resist, dot/aoe/single target damage. All im trying to say here is that one play style looks like, yet again, its headed to the gutter for new changes. Changes that I over all like the look of, but I really think crit resist should not be an active skill. That or they should give the blue tree an extra slot, or one of the things i said before. That way you can still have some damage while having that small amount of survivability. Because, compared to right now, it is a very small amount. The balance of survival vs damage seems to be tipped way to the damage side.
That 15% damage reduction is not what will create damage dealing tanks next update, if they still exist which im sure they will.
they must reduce the number of passive stars and increase the number of active ones. "Vertical progress" should end at about 1500 cp
Honestly, the concept of 1vX'er involves having a 'do everything' build. The imbalance required to allow that kind of a build to excel without having to choose areas to excel in vs areas to be weak in is part of the pvp problem. Unkillable builds with seemingly endless sustain that can kill whoever they want before healing back to full without issue, an exaggeration for sure but the new system will force those builds to focus into more precise builds.
Everyone who's worried about the cp changes you forgetting 1 important thing, that we are all in the same boat. No one is 3000cp and will not be anytime soon. If you are decent player currently and own others in Cyro, you will continue to do so after the patch. Some stuff will change, builds will change, you need to make some choices and adapt, but your power relative to others will remain the same.