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Concerns about the new cp system warfare tree

eso_lags
eso_lags
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So im curious if anyone else feels the same way after playing around with the CP system. This is coming from a pvp perspective, and my concerns are mainly for small scale pvp. I think the blue tree should have 5 slots for the champion bar. The damage in game is so high right now, and I dont expect it to drop all that much next update. That being said, idk why they chose to put defense and offense in the same tree. Furthermore I think that some of these "add to champion bar to activate" skills should be passive skills that are always activated.

Choosing between damage and resistance to damage is kind of a ridiculous thing to ask, especially if you're a small scale/solo player. I understand not balancing the game around that point but I also think its ridiculous in general. Everyone should be able to do both, to what extent is the question. Right now in medium armor I can get get ripped in half by many other builds out there. Some of these builds, like necro and wardens, run around with 40k+ health and hit like trucks. Same with werewolves. It also doesn't seem like much class balance went into reworking this system, but I could have missed something. Like the CP system has been in place since the games creation, and classes have been balanced to work with that system, as well as their skills, passives, and other skills and passives.

But yet again it looks like zos has gone the route of large, drastic, sweeping, changes, opposed to small incremental changes over time. Il never understand it, but thats how they do things. Back to the point, I think theyre asking us to choose too much. Like you're expected to choose between; weapon/spell damage, max stat, more weapon/spell damage, dot damage, aoe damage, single target damage, critical damage/healing, all on the offensive side. And then; DOT damage reduction, crit resistance, AOE damage reduction, single target damage reduction, all on the defensive side.

And thats not counting some of the very valuable looking non stat based abilities there too. I didnt count those since thats not really the point of this discussion, but they are also there to choose from and theres probably another 6 or 7 skills.. What Im getting at is the blue tree has A LOT of useful things to choose from. A lot of things that are so necessary for some play styles and classes right now. Yes it many passives, but it also has very many active skills. I think this is going to make having a well rounded build difficult, and *** on solo play a bit more than anything. And im not talking about a broken build, im talking about well rounded as in built to somewhat deal with every situation but not specialized at dealing with everything. Something you have always been able to do in this game.

Anyway I dont want to make this a bigger rant than it is. I really like this new system. It has skyrim vibes and looks like it could diversify things somewhat, although there will always be a meta in an mmo. I think they did a good job, but I think it could be improved a bit by either giving the blue tree another slot, considering the amount of skills it has. Or moving a couple skills to another tree, mainly a couple of the defensive skills that seem like they would fit much better in fitness. Or maybe making a couple skills passives instead of champion bar active abilities.

So I just want to see what other people think. Im not looking for a big argument, im not saying im 100% right, im just curious if my concerns with the blue tree off base or if others think something similar.
Edited by eso_lags on January 30, 2021 9:44PM
  • merpins
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    They want you to make builds with this system, but I don't really think that's how they designed it. They really just separated the classes. Healers have ~4 skills to choose from, DPS have ~7 skills to choose from (that are any good), and tanks have ~5 skills to choose from in blue. As it sits, it's basically "here's a bunch of bad skills, and a couple good ones." Or at the very least, all decent skills but some are just so much better than the others that there's just no way you'd pick the other options. It would be nice to have all the options for your role and be able to pick some stuff so you can be an off tank, or an off healer, but if you do that now, you're going to be severely suboptimal.

    However they have stated that they will add more skills over time to this system. I'm not a fan of how they compartmentalized it so ALL of the useful skills for combat are in one line. I wish they had taken the green skills and spread them out to all the skill lines, and then used green for something else or even spread out some damage and some tanking skills into green and red, since it's like... Green isn't really useful? It's flavorful, and has some really fun sounding skills, but those are pretty much all filler and not really useful in any end-game content unless you're just trying to grind out gold.
  • Jackey
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    Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.

    I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
    Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
    The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
    It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.
    PS | EU
  • MashmalloMan
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    They want you to make builds with this system, but I don't really think that's how they designed it. They really just separated the classes. Healers have ~4 skills to choose from, DPS have ~7 skills to choose from (that are any good), and tanks have ~5 skills to choose from in blue. As it sits, it's basically "here's a bunch of bad skills, and a couple good ones." Or at the very least, all decent skills but some are just so much better than the others that there's just no way you'd pick the other options. It would be nice to have all the options for your role and be able to pick some stuff so you can be an off tank, or an off healer, but if you do that now, you're going to be severely suboptimal.

    However they have stated that they will add more skills over time to this system. I'm not a fan of how they compartmentalized it so ALL of the useful skills for combat are in one line. I wish they had taken the green skills and spread them out to all the skill lines, and then used green for something else or even spread out some damage and some tanking skills into green and red, since it's like... Green isn't really useful? It's flavorful, and has some really fun sounding skills, but those are pretty much all filler and not really useful in any end-game content unless you're just trying to grind out gold.

    Thats the entire point. Choice.

    There is very little choice involved when you add combat related bonuses in every tree. The fact that green is 100% craft and utility focussed is awesome because you're no longer penalized for going after somewhat useless stars for combat related actions. This adds more customization, not less.

    The last time I changed my CP was 3+ years ago. With the new system I'll swap things in and out for the given ocassion for a lot of different scenarios, just like our current skill bars.

    Like that juicy 7% healing received from damage done or kills or w.e it was. That is solid for solo content like VMA, but I'm not going to sacrifice dps for that in group content with a healer.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on January 30, 2021 10:16PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • merpins
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    Thats the entire point. Choice.

    There is very little choice involved when you add combat related bonuses in every tree. The fact that green is 100% craft and utility focussed is awesome because you're no longer penalized for going after somewhat useless stars for combat related actions. This adds more customization, not less.

    The last time I changed my CP was 3+ years ago. With the new system I'll swap things in and out for the given ocassion for a lot of different scenarios, just like our current skill bars.

    Like that juicy 7% healing received from damage done or kills or w.e it was. That is solid for solo content like VMA, but I'm not going to sacrifice dps for that in group content with a healer.

    As it sits right now, sure. If they evenly spread the combat related skills to blue, green, and red, it would definitely be not much choice because you could possibly get everything you want. But they stated that there will be more options added later. With enough choice, possibly unique choices and weird combat abilities spread among the obvious % bonus choices thrown into the mix of all 3 lines, it would give them infinitely more freedom of design because not EVERY combat skill would need to be stuffed into one skill line. Not EVERY non-combat utility would need to be stuffed into green, and they could make unique designs based on the theme of the color line. I'm not saying that their current choice doesn't ad variety to player choices, it does to some extent. But it's just like all of the choices are obvious, and the situations you would switch out skills for other skills are also obvious because some of the choices are just plain better than the others, and with this current system, it will be easily subject to power creep. If they spread it all out evenly based on the theme (similar to the old system, I guess but with the new system), not only would it make player choice more varied, it would also give them more freedom to design skills.
  • eso_lags
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    Jackey wrote: »
    Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.

    I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
    Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
    The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
    It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.

    Well I am a bit concerned with it since I play solo. I like having a build that can equally stand up against most builds. Obviousness being ready for everything cant happen, but this will cut that in half. Now, while its hard to deal with a defile dot dk, next patch it will be harder to deal with them and harder to deal with a bunch of other builds, meanwhile easier to deal with some other ones. Its pointless and random for no reason.

    Its crazy to put offense and defense in the same tree. No matter how you slice it you're losing too much. And you shouldnt have to, yes I can get on board with losing some things, or choosing between them, but not everything thats there.

    But I agree with you about the amount of CP, that was concerning to me. I dont know the answer to that one. On one hand people have had all this CP theyve been gaining and never using, on the other hand if they dont make CP WAAAY easier to get then this is a big problem.

    In fact, i think pve players would probably gain CP much faster than pvp players, am i right or wrong about that? In pvp you gain XP but i cant imagine its as much as pve players get running dungeons, killing mobs, questing, and doing trials throughout the day. I could be wrong but ive been curious about that.
  • eso_lags
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    They want you to make builds with this system, but I don't really think that's how they designed it. They really just separated the classes. Healers have ~4 skills to choose from, DPS have ~7 skills to choose from (that are any good), and tanks have ~5 skills to choose from in blue. As it sits, it's basically "here's a bunch of bad skills, and a couple good ones." Or at the very least, all decent skills but some are just so much better than the others that there's just no way you'd pick the other options. It would be nice to have all the options for your role and be able to pick some stuff so you can be an off tank, or an off healer, but if you do that now, you're going to be severely suboptimal.

    However they have stated that they will add more skills over time to this system. I'm not a fan of how they compartmentalized it so ALL of the useful skills for combat are in one line. I wish they had taken the green skills and spread them out to all the skill lines, and then used green for something else or even spread out some damage and some tanking skills into green and red, since it's like... Green isn't really useful? It's flavorful, and has some really fun sounding skills, but those are pretty much all filler and not really useful in any end-game content unless you're just trying to grind out gold.

    Thats the entire point. Choice.

    There is very little choice involved when you add combat related bonuses in every tree. The fact that green is 100% craft and utility focussed is awesome because you're no longer penalized for going after somewhat useless stars for combat related actions. This adds more customization, not less.

    The last time I changed my CP was 3+ years ago. With the new system I'll swap things in and out for the given ocassion for a lot of different scenarios, just like our current skill bars.

    Like that juicy 7% healing received from damage done or kills or w.e it was. That is solid for solo content like VMA, but I'm not going to sacrifice dps for that in group content with a healer.

    Ya I can agree somewhat with what both of you are saying but I still just think theres too much packed into the blue tree. And then adding defense and offense in the same tree, and splitting specs in a way, all in the same tree. Idk im so torn with this looking to the future, part of me thinks it could diversify things, but the other part of me can see how it will do the opposite. And right now Im leaning on it doing the opposite. But I do like the system itself and find it very interesting.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.

    I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.

    That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.

    But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.

    If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.

    Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.

    EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on January 30, 2021 10:42PM
  • merpins
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    eso_lags wrote: »

    Ya I can agree somewhat with what both of you are saying but I still just think theres too much packed into the blue tree. And then adding defense and offense in the same tree, and splitting specs in a way, all in the same tree. Idk im so torn with this looking to the future, part of me thinks it could diversify things, but the other part of me can see how it will do the opposite. And right now Im leaning on it doing the opposite. But I do like the system itself and find it very interesting.

    Exactly. I'm afraid that having all the combat skills shoved into one skill tree will both pigeonhole the devs, causing bland skills, and will also inevitably cause power creep.
  • Jackey
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    eso_lags wrote: »
    Jackey wrote: »
    Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.

    I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
    Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
    The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
    It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.

    Well I am a bit concerned with it since I play solo. I like having a build that can equally stand up against most builds. Obviousness being ready for everything cant happen, but this will cut that in half. Now, while its hard to deal with a defile dot dk, next patch it will be harder to deal with them and harder to deal with a bunch of other builds, meanwhile easier to deal with some other ones. Its pointless and random for no reason.

    Its crazy to put offense and defense in the same tree. No matter how you slice it you're losing too much. And you shouldnt have to, yes I can get on board with losing some things, or choosing between them, but not everything thats there.

    But I agree with you about the amount of CP, that was concerning to me. I dont know the answer to that one. On one hand people have had all this CP theyve been gaining and never using, on the other hand if they dont make CP WAAAY easier to get then this is a big problem.

    In fact, i think pve players would probably gain CP much faster than pvp players, am i right or wrong about that? In pvp you gain XP but i cant imagine its as much as pve players get running dungeons, killing mobs, questing, and doing trials throughout the day. I could be wrong but ive been curious about that.

    I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
    I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.
    PS | EU
  • redspecter23
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    It's clear to me that as far as the blue tree goes, they want you to choose either healing or damage or defense. Potentially swap in here or there for particular fights. They don't want heavy dps toons to also have high defense and they don't want tanks to deal higher damage.

    In theory, this works well enough. You could even have a dps hotswap to a healer with a few changes to your cp slots. It doesn't work in reality as you'd need about 3k cp to have enough to take all the passives you'd want as well as the appropriate slotted skills for dps and healing. Hotswapping for situational use simply won't be a thing until you have 2500+ cp. What players will do is swap anyway, but just eat the 3000 gold cost for doing so if they really feel the need to make changes.

    I'm sitting here thinking about skills like the one that removes stamina costs from mounts. Ok, that's 250 points, so 750 total points. If I can gain one cp per day that's only about 2 years away before I can hotswap it for situational use. That's a huge breakdown point for the system. It adds options... with a 2 year cooldown once you have your key skills. A yearlong wait so that I can have a CHANCE at not consuming a soul gem upon reviving. Is that an out of season April Fool's Joke? Even if you did unlock that, please tell me the situation where you actually slot that skill for one of your 4 slots?
    Edited by redspecter23 on January 30, 2021 11:50PM
  • eso_lags
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    It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.

    I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.

    That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.

    But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.

    If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.

    Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.

    EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.

    but isnt that why we give our input here? which is why im asking for other peoples input as well. Is that not what the pts is supposed to before, granted they rarely listen to players, but in theory? Thats why I was suggesting something thats not crazy and seeing what other people think about it. Ya were all going to have less than ideal builds, but i think giving the blue tree one more slot, considering how many skills there are, or moving some skills, or changing a couple slottable skills to passives, would not be too bad. Im mainly curious what people think about that. But ya, trust me, I agree and know things are going to be very different when this hits. But like i said, thats zos. Drastic, sweeping, changes opposed to small incremental ones.
  • eso_lags
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    eso_lags wrote: »

    Ya I can agree somewhat with what both of you are saying but I still just think theres too much packed into the blue tree. And then adding defense and offense in the same tree, and splitting specs in a way, all in the same tree. Idk im so torn with this looking to the future, part of me thinks it could diversify things, but the other part of me can see how it will do the opposite. And right now Im leaning on it doing the opposite. But I do like the system itself and find it very interesting.

    Exactly. I'm afraid that having all the combat skills shoved into one skill tree will both pigeonhole the devs, causing bland skills, and will also inevitably cause power creep.

    ya I definitely didnt mean all of them. Just a couple. Idk, i think any option I mentioned would work. I think 5 slots could work, I think moving a couple could work, maybe the best thing would be to make a couple just passives and not slottable. Idk though but i do like the system overall.
    Jackey wrote: »
    eso_lags wrote: »
    Jackey wrote: »
    Considering that everyone is stuck with 4 choices in the blue tree, I'm not that concerned about it. That's the choices I need to make for my build.

    I'm more concerned about the large amount of useful passives in the blue tree that will make a difference in pvp.
    Someone with more CP will have better stats than someone with lower CP. Which is okay if it weren't for the fact that we might see vertical progression up to around 2400CP. Thats ⅔ of the entire CP system.
    The last 1200CP will be all about those choices.
    It sounds like a long awful grind for most players in its current state, just to get back to the same playing field as they were before.

    Well I am a bit concerned with it since I play solo. I like having a build that can equally stand up against most builds. Obviousness being ready for everything cant happen, but this will cut that in half. Now, while its hard to deal with a defile dot dk, next patch it will be harder to deal with them and harder to deal with a bunch of other builds, meanwhile easier to deal with some other ones. Its pointless and random for no reason.

    Its crazy to put offense and defense in the same tree. No matter how you slice it you're losing too much. And you shouldnt have to, yes I can get on board with losing some things, or choosing between them, but not everything thats there.

    But I agree with you about the amount of CP, that was concerning to me. I dont know the answer to that one. On one hand people have had all this CP theyve been gaining and never using, on the other hand if they dont make CP WAAAY easier to get then this is a big problem.

    In fact, i think pve players would probably gain CP much faster than pvp players, am i right or wrong about that? In pvp you gain XP but i cant imagine its as much as pve players get running dungeons, killing mobs, questing, and doing trials throughout the day. I could be wrong but ive been curious about that.

    I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
    I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.

    Its very concerning. Im gonna look more into it as well but from my first pass over it just seems like, with all the damage in the game right now, you shouldnt have to sacrifice a lot of defense for damage. Especially something like crit resist, that should not, i repeat should NOT, be a slottable skill. Some builds literally hit crits so hard coming out of stealth with an ult dump. Bit thats what im talking about, solo is gonna get hit the hardest with this patch.

    If I dont grab crit resist, and I get into a 1v3 with a ganker who has pumped crit damage and damage in general, hes gonna run away and come back and ult dump me from stealth and kill me with my 1500 crit resist. And it could be like that with any build with a specialty, and there are a lot, vs what you couldnt take. Which again, is why solo will get hit hardest here. You dont have someone to give you a buff to reduce damage from something so you can leave that CP skill behind and go for another, you just have yourself. I know they cant balance the game around solo players but they could try to at least act like we exist and not *** on us with every change.

    Idk Its not something Im freaking out over, like damn ill have to quit again next update, but its something im concerned over. Deff worth testing a bit more.
  • eso_lags
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    It's clear to me that as far as the blue tree goes, they want you to choose either healing or damage or defense. Potentially swap in here or there for particular fights. They don't want heavy dps toons to also have high defense and they don't want tanks to deal higher damage.

    In theory, this works well enough. You could even have a dps hotswap to a healer with a few changes to your cp slots. It doesn't work in reality as you'd need about 3k cp to have enough to take all the passives you'd want as well as the appropriate slotted skills for dps and healing. Hotswapping for situational use simply won't be a thing until you have 2500+ cp. What players will do is swap anyway, but just eat the 3000 gold cost for doing so if they really feel the need to make changes.

    I'm sitting here thinking about skills like the one that removes stamina costs from mounts. Ok, that's 250 points, so 750 total points. If I can gain one cp per day that's only about 2 years away before I can hotswap it for situational use. That's a huge breakdown point for the system. It adds options... with a 2 year cooldown once you have your key skills. A yearlong wait so that I can have a CHANCE at not consuming a soul gem upon reviving. Is that an out of season April Fool's Joke? Even if you did unlock that, please tell me the situation where you actually slot that skill for one of your 4 slots?

    I thought they removed the cost? They really should if they didnt considering most players dont have 2000 or more CP. And ya that soul gem thing was stupid, im 99% sure one of them was like "something like soul gems which are obviously very important" (something like that) and I actually said WTF? Like theyre not at all, i have thousands.
  • WiredandTired
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    eso_lags wrote: »
    It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.

    I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.

    That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.

    But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.

    If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.

    Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.

    EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.

    but isnt that why we give our input here? which is why im asking for other peoples input as well. Is that not what the pts is supposed to before, granted they rarely listen to players, but in theory? Thats why I was suggesting something thats not crazy and seeing what other people think about it. Ya were all going to have less than ideal builds, but i think giving the blue tree one more slot, considering how many skills there are, or moving some skills, or changing a couple slottable skills to passives, would not be too bad. Im mainly curious what people think about that. But ya, trust me, I agree and know things are going to be very different when this hits. But like i said, thats zos. Drastic, sweeping, changes opposed to small incremental ones.

    Hey ESO Lags,

    Francis is correct and it all likelihood this is going to happen. I'm not sure how many patch cycles you've been through, but it's been in recent history that valid, actionable, and constructive feedback has been submitted for PTS patch cycles that gets ignored and bugs/badly thought out features are put into the game regardless. If they want to roll out a bad update they will do so. The only change that was rolled back or completely shelved was the light/heavy attack change.

    I've combed through the PTS information and yes I've come to the same conclusions that the CP system is incredibly bloated, unintuitive, and runs contrary to the goals and marketing put forth so far. The impression I got from the livestream was that the majority of stars were optional/slottable, with many stars that could be chosen and slotted, but the reality is that there are many stars that are always on passives with gigantic point sinks.

    So what will that mean for CP PVP and PvE, it will mean that the vast majority who have already hit the cap and gained max power are effectively reset to 1/3rd of the accessible power/utility, with a smaller minority who are way over the cap that won't need to choose between damage, survivability, and utility. Why is this? It's because they stated that our CP levels will translate 1:1 to the new CP system, we will not be auto leveled to the true vertical progression system's end which is calculated to 2700 total CP. There's still no word even if the grind to 2700 CP will be shortened, so far they've said that 1200+ cp leveling will be the same as live, which will be a herculean grind for anybody that's casual.

    The folks who have figured it out need to get the word out and create as much noise as the light/heavy attack change as this is as equally bad of a change.
    Edited by WiredandTired on January 31, 2021 12:49AM
  • eso_lags
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    eso_lags wrote: »
    It's not just the slottable stars, and it's not just PvP.

    I did a quick first pass, and if I counted correctly there are 280 points to spend on NON-slottable stars that boost your magical damage output. Assume 4 slottable stars at 50 points each, and to maximize damage you would need to spend 480 blue points, which is to say you'd need to have 1440 champion points overall.

    That's with NO blue points spent boosting healing or reducing incoming damage.

    But in fact, if I solo in PvE, or duo with my wife @DarcyMardin, I like to reduce my incoming damage and boost my healing.

    If I PUG as a healer, I like to both heal and do damage.

    Tanks like to heal themselves, and perhaps even heal their groupmates. In fact, people who queue as tanks often like to be able to do damage, just in case they get weak DDs in their PUGs.

    EVERYBODY is going to have less than ideal builds for their purposes. Maybe you think that's a good thing. Maybe you think it's bad. But like it or not, it is happening.

    but isnt that why we give our input here? which is why im asking for other peoples input as well. Is that not what the pts is supposed to before, granted they rarely listen to players, but in theory? Thats why I was suggesting something thats not crazy and seeing what other people think about it. Ya were all going to have less than ideal builds, but i think giving the blue tree one more slot, considering how many skills there are, or moving some skills, or changing a couple slottable skills to passives, would not be too bad. Im mainly curious what people think about that. But ya, trust me, I agree and know things are going to be very different when this hits. But like i said, thats zos. Drastic, sweeping, changes opposed to small incremental ones.

    Hey ESO Lags,

    Francis is correct and it all likelihood this is going to happen. I'm not sure how many patch cycles you've been through, but it's been in recent history that valid, actionable, and constructive feedback has been submitted for PTS patch cycles that gets ignored and bugs/badly thought out features are put into the game regardless. If they want to roll out a bad update they will do so. The only change that was rolled back or completely shelved was the light/heavy attack change.

    I've combed through the PTS information and yes I've come to the same conclusions that the CP system is incredibly bloated, unintuitive, and runs contrary to the goals and marketing put forth so far. The impression I got from the livestream was that the majority of stars were optional/slottable, with many stars that could be chosen and slotted, but the reality is that there are many stars that are always on passives with gigantic point sinks.

    So what will that mean for CP PVP and PvE, it will mean that the vast majority who have already hit the cap and gained max power are effectively reset to 1/3rd of the accessible power/utility, with a smaller minority who are way over the cap that won't need to choose between damage, survivability, and utility. Why is this? It's because they stated that our CP levels will translate 1:1 to the new CP system, we will not be auto leveled to the true vertical progression system's end which is calculated to 2700 total CP. There's still no word even if the grind to 2700 CP will be shortened, so far they've said that 1200+ cp leveling will be the same as live, which will be a herculean grind for anybody that's casual.

    The folks who have figured it out need to get the word out and create as much noise as the light/heavy attack change as this is as equally bad of a change.

    If the 1200+ cp grind is the same as life then they are literally as far out of touch with this game as it gets. You cannot be more out of touch than a developer that thinks that ANYONE wants to grind that ***. *** mind blowing. Hopefully someone, a class rep idfk, enlightens them that they are out of touch with their own game. I have played this game for 5 years and have 1400 cp. Fourteen *** hundred. I do not want to take another 5 years to reach cap.

    And ya ive been around to see that they ignore advice unless there is a mob. Thats it. If people cry loud enough, they give in. I dont want to turn this into a how much I hate zenmax thread, because I could go on for days, but they really need to improve their communication. But ya its always been like this so im not hopeful. But maybe someone will bring these issues up to them, maybe people will make a big enough fuss..

    But how do you feel about the blue tree?

    The only change that was rolled back or completely shelved was the light/heavy attack change.

    And the cast time on shields. Theres been some, it happens once in great while.
  • CP5
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    I love this change. With the old CP system, you had to build in a balanced manner, all green cp helped sustain, all red cp helped resistances, and all blue cp helped damage. You couldn't build say, a glass cannon, because you still have all the red cp to put toward reducing damage taken. Having all the resistance and damage and healing passives together means builds need to have trade-offs rather than 'i can do everything' builds. That opportunity cost will make for more interesting choices I feel and more varied builds.
  • eso_lags
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    CP5 wrote: »
    I love this change. With the old CP system, you had to build in a balanced manner, all green cp helped sustain, all red cp helped resistances, and all blue cp helped damage. You couldn't build say, a glass cannon, because you still have all the red cp to put toward reducing damage taken. Having all the resistance and damage and healing passives together means builds need to have trade-offs rather than 'i can do everything' builds. That opportunity cost will make for more interesting choices I feel and more varied builds.

    I understand but i disagree. Its not as much as you think and people will always find ways to compensate these things. Even right now you do build as a glass cannon. Its just you have a tiny bit more defenses from CP than you will next update if you choose to go FULL damage.

    Like a filthy game exploiting, health desyncing, nightblade for example. 99% of them I kill in 2 hits. Heavy attack dawnbreaker and then flop. Many times its a dswing, heavy, execute. This is a squishy build built to deal high damage, but I cant just one shot them with a dawnbreaker. So im not sure i fully agree with how you view it, because you can go full damage right now if you want to, you just have a little bit of defense from CP to back you up.

    The real problem, imo, is that there are no choices. There is no selection. You go 30 points impen, 49 hardy, 49 ele, and then usually a split between thick skinned and ironclad although ATM i run more into ironclad. But thats how it is. CP should have choices, which is what theyre doing. You will still passively get some damage and some defenses, but now you can choose whether you want more.

    My biggest issue is that they should still allow there to be balanced builds, and there will be no way to do that with how its setup.
  • Foto1
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    they must reduce the number of passive stars and increase the number of active ones. "Vertical progress" should end at about 1500 cp
    PC/EU CP 1200+
    Artaxerks stamina dk khajiit
    Wayna Qhapaq magicka dk argonian
    Rorekur stamina sorc orc
    Maria de Medici magicka sorc breton
    Cordeilla stamina warden wood elf
    Quienn Gwendolen magicka warden high elf
    Nefertari stamina necro khajiit
    Boadicea Icenian magicka templar dark elf
    Clarice de Medici healer nb breton
  • JayKwellen
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    eso_lags wrote: »
    I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
    I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.

    Its very concerning. Im gonna look more into it as well but from my first pass over it just seems like, with all the damage in the game right now, you shouldnt have to sacrifice a lot of defense for damage. Especially something like crit resist, that should not, i repeat should NOT, be a slottable skill. Some builds literally hit crits so hard coming out of stealth with an ult dump. Bit thats what im talking about, solo is gonna get hit the hardest with this patch.

    If I dont grab crit resist, and I get into a 1v3 with a ganker who has pumped crit damage and damage in general, hes gonna run away and come back and ult dump me from stealth and kill me with my 1500 crit resist. And it could be like that with any build with a specialty, and there are a lot, vs what you couldnt take. Which again, is why solo will get hit hardest here. You dont have someone to give you a buff to reduce damage from something so you can leave that CP skill behind and go for another, you just have yourself. I know they cant balance the game around solo players but they could try to at least act like we exist and not *** on us with every change.

    I'm pretty worried too, for most of the same reasons. I also play either solo or with my partner, and the now limiting nature of CP has left me with this kind of ominous sinking feeling.

    I also get the impression that the unequal effect this will have on the classes wasn't considered at all. Taken from my own perspective as a non-proc/non-snipe/non-gank regular boring stat-build stamblade:

    As it currently stands, playing a stat based build can already be troublesome. With everyone seemingly wearing heavy armor and stacking health trying to get a kill can all too often feel like a chore. Trying to kill anyone who knows how to play was already difficult, as a nightblades burst is probably the easiest to anticipate and avoid in the game.

    Now everyone has an additional 15% damage reduction, and another 10% if they wear heavy armor, and thousands more base health, and another 10% if they take the CP that gives mitigation when CC immune (which means always).

    Couple that with the fact that most of us will probably (although I can't verify this, it just appears to be the case) lose damage overall with the new CP's and it's going to make things...interesting. It would appear we will also be losing survivability thanks to the ways the trees work so, excellent. I can go from squishy to even squishier with worse damage. Meanwhile that 40k health stamden in heavy armor still has better burst than me, but whatever. I guess I could roll dodge more but hey, I'm already in 5 well-fitted, except now it looks like I might have to give up the 1k crit resist I get from CP too!

    The more I write the worse I start to feel, so I think I should probably stop.
    Edited by JayKwellen on January 31, 2021 6:23AM
    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    AD PvP
    Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.
  • CP5
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    You will get balance by slotting some damage and some defense passives then, whereas a tank will slot all defensive and glass cannons would be all offensive. Just means a hybrid build won't output as much damage or be as durable as the extremes which is something pvp probably needs a lot more of, distinct builds.
  • eso_lags
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    CP5 wrote: »
    You will get balance by slotting some damage and some defense passives then, whereas a tank will slot all defensive and glass cannons would be all offensive. Just means a hybrid build won't output as much damage or be as durable as the extremes which is something pvp probably needs a lot more of, distinct builds.

    I agree that that could be good but i dissagree with how their going about it. They dont need to sacrifice some playstlyles for no reason. They dont need to tip the scales even more than they already are. Theres no reason to have crit resistance here. Theres no reason to stuff the blue tree with so much for damage and survival. I mean FFS, the red tree has health, whats more fitting for survial that health?

    Idk, ill say it again. My biggest concern is that were in a meta that is full of extremely hard hitting builds. Gank builds that hit like trucks. Wardens, necros, werewolves, and others, that have 40k+ health and hit like trucks. Magdens that are pushing 50k health and regularly kill people. In a meta with so much damage and survival I am concerned about what happens when they remove the 40% damage reduction that CP gives up. People are still going to be able to hit extremely hard, maybe even harder.

    So ill use this as an example. Right now I have a 40% damage reduction, with my CP, to direct damage physical attacks. Also an extra 800 crit resistance. Next update, if i spend the points, at a base I will have a 5% damage reduction to martial attacks aka physical damage attacks. 5% and thats it. Now you can say, but the damage CP has gone down as well, but its still more. Crit damage, single target damage, max stam, max stam, weapon damage, weapon damage, crit, crit. People are still going to hit extremely hard.

    So now im left with 5% damage reduction and some choices. As a solo player, do I put crit resist, a MUST for pvp, and another 10% damage reduction from dot damage/aoe damage/single target damage? Still that only gives me 15% damage reduction towards what I now have a 40% damage reduction to, but its better than nothing and hopefully could be a little more balanced with the changes they've made, but i still think people will hit harder next update.

    So thats my 4 slots taken. Crit resist, dot/aoe/single target damage. All im trying to say here is that one play style looks like, yet again, its headed to the gutter for new changes. Changes that I over all like the look of, but I really think crit resist should not be an active skill. That or they should give the blue tree an extra slot, or one of the things i said before. That way you can still have some damage while having that small amount of survivability. Because, compared to right now, it is a very small amount. The balance of survival vs damage seems to be tipped way to the damage side.

    That 15% damage reduction is not what will create damage dealing tanks next update, if they still exist which im sure they will.
  • eso_lags
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    eso_lags wrote: »
    I haven't properly tested anything yet, I'll have to see if I can recreate my current build and how many CPs that will cost me when/if they release a 3600 template.
    I also mostly play solo pvp and I understand what you mean. Makes me a bit more concerned now but I'll have to test it later and see for myself.

    Its very concerning. Im gonna look more into it as well but from my first pass over it just seems like, with all the damage in the game right now, you shouldnt have to sacrifice a lot of defense for damage. Especially something like crit resist, that should not, i repeat should NOT, be a slottable skill. Some builds literally hit crits so hard coming out of stealth with an ult dump. Bit thats what im talking about, solo is gonna get hit the hardest with this patch.

    If I dont grab crit resist, and I get into a 1v3 with a ganker who has pumped crit damage and damage in general, hes gonna run away and come back and ult dump me from stealth and kill me with my 1500 crit resist. And it could be like that with any build with a specialty, and there are a lot, vs what you couldnt take. Which again, is why solo will get hit hardest here. You dont have someone to give you a buff to reduce damage from something so you can leave that CP skill behind and go for another, you just have yourself. I know they cant balance the game around solo players but they could try to at least act like we exist and not *** on us with every change.

    I'm pretty worried too, for most of the same reasons. I also play either solo or with my partner, and the now limiting nature of CP has left me with this kind of ominous sinking feeling.

    I also get the impression that the unequal effect this will have on the classes wasn't considered at all. Taken from my own perspective as a non-proc/non-snipe/non-gank regular boring stat-build stamblade:

    As it currently stands, playing a stat based build can already be troublesome. With everyone seemingly wearing heavy armor and stacking health trying to get a kill can all too often feel like a chore. Trying to kill anyone who knows how to play was already difficult, as a nightblades burst is probably the easiest to anticipate and avoid in the game.

    Now everyone has an additional 15% damage reduction, and another 10% if they wear heavy armor, and thousands more base health, and another 10% if they take the CP that gives mitigation when CC immune (which means always).

    Couple that with the fact that most of us will probably (although I can't verify this, it just appears to be the case) lose damage overall with the new CP's and it's going to make things...interesting. It would appear we will also be losing survivability thanks to the ways the trees work so, excellent. I can go from squishy to even squishier with worse damage. Meanwhile that 40k health stamden in heavy armor still has better burst than me, but whatever. I guess I could roll dodge more but hey, I'm already in 5 well-fitted, except now it looks like I might have to give up the 1k crit resist I get from CP too!

    The more I write the worse I start to feel, so I think I should probably stop.

    I agree this meta is extremely frustrating. There is no reason you should die to 3 45k+ health builds in heavy, like it should not happen. But it does sometimes.

    As far as the damage goes, I think over all damage will drop but I think people are going to hit harder. Like I said above, and keep in mind i havent tested anything so this is just an estimate based to looking at the CP, I think the balance of damage vs survival is tipped a lot more into damage.

    Like I was saying, I have 40% damage reduction for direct damage attacks right now, mag or stam, from my CP. Next patch that goes to 5%. 15% if i choose to waste a skill slot. Meanwhile damage there is still plenty of ways to stack extremely high damage while staying survivable with class skills or other methods. Then you add in the new damage cp passives, and then active skills, and it seems like damage will be very high compared to what it is now..

    But for people like me, and you from what I understand, that means, if im right, we'll get hit harder, but it doesnt look like the damage dealing tanks will have an issue. They will still stack health and deal damage because I dont think zos addressed the real issue very much, which is sustain. Some of these builds have endless sustain. And im not sure theres a way to ever fix that tbh. But maybe I missed it, and they did address it.
    Edited by eso_lags on January 31, 2021 6:59PM
  • CP5
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    Honestly, the concept of 1vX'er involves having a 'do everything' build. The imbalance required to allow that kind of a build to excel without having to choose areas to excel in vs areas to be weak in is part of the pvp problem. Unkillable builds with seemingly endless sustain that can kill whoever they want before healing back to full without issue, an exaggeration for sure but the new system will force those builds to focus into more precise builds.
  • Ocelot9x
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Honestly, the concept of 1vX'er involves having a 'do everything' build. The imbalance required to allow that kind of a build to excel without having to choose areas to excel in vs areas to be weak in is part of the pvp problem. Unkillable builds with seemingly endless sustain that can kill whoever they want before healing back to full without issue, an exaggeration for sure but the new system will force those builds to focus into more precise builds.

    And that's not true, because you can still have a do everything build, but now you need endless grinding. And I know a lot of people willing to do that (and having the time too).
    I would totally agree with you if the system had more actives and less passives, but right now on pts is not like that.

    I'm totally in for a change toward focused builds, and the new cp system could have been a way of solving that, but again, it's not this way now
  • Ranger209
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    eso_lags wrote: »
    CP5 wrote: »
    You will get balance by slotting some damage and some defense passives then, whereas a tank will slot all defensive and glass cannons would be all offensive. Just means a hybrid build won't output as much damage or be as durable as the extremes which is something pvp probably needs a lot more of, distinct builds.

    I agree that that could be good but i dissagree with how their going about it. They dont need to sacrifice some playstlyles for no reason. They dont need to tip the scales even more than they already are. Theres no reason to have crit resistance here. Theres no reason to stuff the blue tree with so much for damage and survival. I mean FFS, the red tree has health, whats more fitting for survial that health?

    Idk, ill say it again. My biggest concern is that were in a meta that is full of extremely hard hitting builds. Gank builds that hit like trucks. Wardens, necros, werewolves, and others, that have 40k+ health and hit like trucks. Magdens that are pushing 50k health and regularly kill people. In a meta with so much damage and survival I am concerned about what happens when they remove the 40% damage reduction that CP gives up. People are still going to be able to hit extremely hard, maybe even harder.

    So ill use this as an example. Right now I have a 40% damage reduction, with my CP, to direct damage physical attacks. Also an extra 800 crit resistance. Next update, if i spend the points, at a base I will have a 5% damage reduction to martial attacks aka physical damage attacks. 5% and thats it. Now you can say, but the damage CP has gone down as well, but its still more. Crit damage, single target damage, max stam, max stam, weapon damage, weapon damage, crit, crit. People are still going to hit extremely hard.

    So now im left with 5% damage reduction and some choices. As a solo player, do I put crit resist, a MUST for pvp, and another 10% damage reduction from dot damage/aoe damage/single target damage? Still that only gives me 15% damage reduction towards what I now have a 40% damage reduction to, but its better than nothing and hopefully could be a little more balanced with the changes they've made, but i still think people will hit harder next update.

    So thats my 4 slots taken. Crit resist, dot/aoe/single target damage. All im trying to say here is that one play style looks like, yet again, its headed to the gutter for new changes. Changes that I over all like the look of, but I really think crit resist should not be an active skill. That or they should give the blue tree an extra slot, or one of the things i said before. That way you can still have some damage while having that small amount of survivability. Because, compared to right now, it is a very small amount. The balance of survival vs damage seems to be tipped way to the damage side.

    That 15% damage reduction is not what will create damage dealing tanks next update, if they still exist which im sure they will.

    What they have done is raised the floor by taking the stats you get with the first 160 CP and giving it to everyone at level 50. They also are giving everyone 1000 weapon and spell damage and 15% mitigation. All of that is being baked into every character before CP even comes into play. Then they are reducing how impactful CP is to vertical progression which tightens the window as to the power creep CP itself offers. That's a good thing and I'm all for it. it brings NoCP and CP much closer together, and will make it easier to balance between the two which is another good aspect in my mind.
  • Mayrael
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    Foto1 wrote: »
    they must reduce the number of passive stars and increase the number of active ones. "Vertical progress" should end at about 1500 cp

    This is the solution. Long time ago I proposed a CP system that allows us to invest up to 100 CPs in active skills. This way max CPs in use would be always 1200, while all above that could be used on skills that we like to use on other roles. Like 1 cp allocation for DD, 1 for tank, 1 fo healer. You don't have to respect unless you want to change behavior of certain skills.

    Limiting combat related attributes (even passive ones) to slotables solves the power creep issue. You can have 3600 CPs but all combat related CPs are still limited by how much skills you can slot. All non-combat skills should work on buy, that's all. This way it's still nice to have more CPs for convenience but has no impact on toon strength.
    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • eso_lags
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Honestly, the concept of 1vX'er involves having a 'do everything' build. The imbalance required to allow that kind of a build to excel without having to choose areas to excel in vs areas to be weak in is part of the pvp problem. Unkillable builds with seemingly endless sustain that can kill whoever they want before healing back to full without issue, an exaggeration for sure but the new system will force those builds to focus into more precise builds.

    I dont agree. You can 1vx on a glass cannon stamblade. You can 1vx on a stam sorc with high damage and good defense. You can even 1vx on a tank ish build if you pick your targets correctly, not that i do it. But the big problem is those tank type builds with endless sustain and good damage, i wouldnt call it great damage but good. But this is the fault of zos. Idk why they make some abilities deal damage based off health, or why they dont care enough to adjust certain classes that excel at this type of damage dealing tank playstyle. And im not talking about to squishy targets, im talking necros, wardens, and werewolves.

    I am not going to die to a 45k health warden or necro or whatever. Its just not going to happen. maybe a WW but it would have to be some crazy build, but theyre just completely broken. But in a 1v2, if they know what theyre doing, ya sure. Theres enough damage to overwhelm me when theres a couple but not 1v1. And I know not everyone can relate, not everyone plays how i play or has the utility i do to heal and burst when i need to. Some people are more squishy, etc.

    Do you wonder why some classes dont or cant do this damage dealing tank thing? Its because of class balance not a broken 1vx build. For example, I cannot build a 45k health damage dealing stam sorc. I could, but again its only killing squishy targets (which is something that will always be in the game). Its different on a warden or necro. You have burst tools and major debuffs. You have good aoe damage skills, some that scale off health, and crazy sustain. This is the issue and it needs to be looked at specifically instead of with blanket changes.

    Zos doesnt realize they will never balance this game with blanket changes. They need to do small incremental changes over small periods of time, like every update, instead of large intrusive changes every year. Its ridiculous at this point.

    As for my build, on my stam sorc i usually go high damage mediocre defenses. Meaning my defense is my 40% cp damage reduction to all types of damage, my crit resistance from gear and cp, my healing buffs from health recov, and my ability to mitigate damage with terrain and distance before i can pick off targets. I have good sustain, good defense, decent healing, high damage. I wouldnt call that broken, by any means. So next update, if damage is higher or liek it is now, ill have a 5% damage reduction and 15% if i spend all my skill slots and take crit resist.

    Thats going to hurt solo players more than anyone else and make me have to either kite more or build more tanky, which will, as it always does, make solo harder. It will also cause people to build more tanky, i think anyway. And It will also, as it always does, drive players away from small scale/solo and into zerging. Small scale is harder and harder to get into every time they change things in a negative way.

    But it is what it is at this point. I like the way the system looks. I am excited for it, and hopeful it doesnt make playing solo even harder than it has already been made after countless, countless, nerfs and changes. But I think its a bad idea putting crit resist as an active skill, and possibly a bad idea to put every damage reduction skill in the same tree as damage. Just my opinion
  • Kurat
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    Everyone who's worried about the cp changes you forgetting 1 important thing, that we are all in the same boat. No one is 3000cp and will not be anytime soon. If you are decent player currently and own others in Cyro, you will continue to do so after the patch. Some stuff will change, builds will change, you need to make some choices and adapt, but your power relative to others will remain the same.
  • ExistingRug61
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    Lots to unpack here.

    First, there is a lot of discussion here regarding the current PvP meta with high health tanks that still have damage and the relative power of a 1vXer and stuff. Sure, there's been lots of discussion about it, it's an issue. Something needs to be change. But I see this as a separate issue to the new CP system.

    Lets bring this back to the OPs original point, which seems to boil down to the fact that having to choose between damage and defense stars in the warfare tree is a problem, and hence have suggested a couple of ways of removing this, either by making some of the stars in question passive, or move them to another tree, or give us more champion slots for warfare.

    This seems to be based on the premise that damage will be high, hence the damage reduction slotted stars are needed, but there is no room for them because all the damage stars are slotted.

    This where I disagree.

    I think is exactly the choice that should be encouraged.
    The OP states that it is (and likely will be) a high damage meta. But if damage is high, won't this encourage players to maybe slot the damage resist stars instead? Thus lowering damage.
    If damage is so high that enough players think this, the amount of damage in the meta will reduce. It's self correcting, based on our own choices, rather than simply ZOS giving us a certain amount of damage and mitigation for free with no trade off (as CP1.0 does).
    By making it a choice between damage and mitigation, as has been done in CP2.0, this means that we the players have the ability to influence how much damage is in the meta via how choices in CP champion stars.

    Additionally, if we do something like make the crit resist star a passive or shift it to another tree, well then everyone has it. So now we all have a bit more defense, but you know what we also have? A free star in warfare, meaning everyone can add another damage slottable they didn't have previously, so damage goes up. Nothing has changed.

    The other point I would make is that all players are subject to that same restriction.
    So if we add another slot to the champion bar, because a damage or balanced build needs more mitigation to deal with incoming damage from a tank build, guess what? Now that tank build has another free slot open where they could add a damage star, thus counteracting the extra mitigation the first build now has. Nothing is achieved.

    So sure, I get that OP feels like they have "no choice" in there slottable choices, but they seem to be overlooking that this is the same for their opponents as well. Any change they suggest to reduce this restriction will also help the opponent just as much.

    Furthermore, in discussions of the tank/proc meta, a common theme of the root cause of the issue is that in this meta is possible to build high health and tanky, and still get damage via procs and malacath. There is no (or minimal) tradeoff. Many people propose making it so there is some form of tradeoff between the damage gained while building tanky (which also implies the converse) as a solution to this problem.
    Following the exact same logic, I think removing the tradeoff in the CP system is a bad idea.
    Edited by ExistingRug61 on February 4, 2021 3:43AM
  • Foto1
    Foto1
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    Kurat wrote: »
    Everyone who's worried about the cp changes you forgetting 1 important thing, that we are all in the same boat. No one is 3000cp and will not be anytime soon. If you are decent player currently and own others in Cyro, you will continue to do so after the patch. Some stuff will change, builds will change, you need to make some choices and adapt, but your power relative to others will remain the same.

    you are lying. I know people 2900+ cp
    PC/EU CP 1200+
    Artaxerks stamina dk khajiit
    Wayna Qhapaq magicka dk argonian
    Rorekur stamina sorc orc
    Maria de Medici magicka sorc breton
    Cordeilla stamina warden wood elf
    Quienn Gwendolen magicka warden high elf
    Nefertari stamina necro khajiit
    Boadicea Icenian magicka templar dark elf
    Clarice de Medici healer nb breton
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