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Adamantine Tower is now a game mechanic gimmick, and (still) looks Ayleid

  • Supreme_Atromancer
    Supreme_Atromancer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    It's not a St. Bernard, it's an Anthorbred. Presumably from Mt. Anthor in Skyrim. No reason it can't look exactly like a St Bernard. A dog which was bred specifically for alpine work. That just seems nitpicky.

    I'm not interested in nitpicking, I love ESO, but I find a lot of stuff to be really low effort. I'm not just zeroing in on the Anthorbread dog, its just an example of the many seemingly low-effort, stick-a-random-lore-name-and-go stuff to be found every day. Great Daenian Hound, Druadach Bear, Druadach Dog, Helkarn Wolf pup, Karthwasten pig, endless flame atronach or dwemer reskins that completely miss the point of the abstract forms they represent.
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    Snowhawk is in TES Arena - not the first time ESO has referenced Arena. (Selene's Web, Fang Lair, Halls of Collosus, etc. ) https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Snowhawk

    And while Arena's lore wasn't developed enough to say this, Skyrim's lore leads me to suspect that "in-universe" the "hawk" is a reference to Kyne, as she's frequently represented as and associated with hawks. Alternatively, if we assume that the "Snowhawk Mage" is indeed specifically associated with the Arena town, TES 1 says their rival is Solitude, which we find out in Skyrim is known for the hawks circling around the Blue Palace. Maybe a fun bit of town rivalry?


    Now, sure, you can handwave that away as a fan making ESO's slapdash lore make more sense than the Marketing Department did.

    Personally, I suspect its a lot more likely that the TES Arena writers employed the time-honored D&D method of naming places by "making stuff up". Later writers looked back at their old lore and went "Hmmm, how can we build to this?"

    In the same way, can I really criticize the ESO designers for thinking "You know, all the dogs in TES V look alike, but it would make sense that the Nords would have dogs that they bred and trained to deal with the mountains, right?"

    I mean, don't get me wrong: Meeko's cute. But I'm pretty sure he's not the only dog breed in Skyrim.
    Meeko.jpg

    I guess the point is that it feels like even the 2 minutes it took you to come up with some cool hooks for the Snowhawk Mage style stuff feels like more effort than was put into any sort of lore or explanation for their existence. We know from lore that Snowhawk denoted a thriving city in the 3rd era, and nothing but a ruined tower in the 4th, but there's no trace of it in ESO's time, neither in game nor lore. It feels like just another example of "slap random lore name on this and good to go".

    I'm not against variety of dogs in Skyrim, if that's how its really being read. I'm more commenting on a trend of what really feels like a careless and low-effort excuse to push more reskins through a feeble lore quality control and into the crownstore.
    Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on February 5, 2021 12:49AM
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    Snowhawk is in TES Arena - not the first time ESO has referenced Arena. (Selene's Web, Fang Lair, Halls of Collosus, etc. ) https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Snowhawk

    And while Arena's lore wasn't developed enough to say this, Skyrim's lore leads me to suspect that "in-universe" the "hawk" is a reference to Kyne, as she's frequently represented as and associated with hawks. Alternatively, if we assume that the "Snowhawk Mage" is indeed specifically associated with the Arena town, TES 1 says their rival is Solitude, which we find out in Skyrim is known for the hawks circling around the Blue Palace. Maybe a fun bit of town rivalry?


    Now, sure, you can handwave that away as a fan making ESO's slapdash lore make more sense than the Marketing Department did.

    Personally, I suspect its a lot more likely that the TES Arena writers employed the time-honored D&D method of naming places by "making stuff up". Later writers looked back at their old lore and went "Hmmm, how can we build to this?"

    In the same way, can I really criticize the ESO designers for thinking "You know, all the dogs in TES V look alike, but it would make sense that the Nords would have dogs that they bred and trained to deal with the mountains, right?"

    I mean, don't get me wrong: Meeko's cute. But I'm pretty sure he's not the only dog breed in Skyrim.
    Meeko.jpg

    You guys do so much brilliant work making this nonsense make sense that it honestly makes me wish YOU were the ones in charge of making these decisions.

    But here's the harsh truth that I've learned after spending most of my life as an ES fan:

    No one with any influence in the decision-making process has thought of this anywhere near as deeply as you. I'm positive the hard working writers at Zenimax try their best to make this all work but they have very little control over this stuff.

    At the end of the day most of ESO's decisions are based around marketing and live-service engagement, not storytelling.

    This isn't 3D chess. They wanted to sell players a cute pet and they slapped a vaguely familiar name so that people like the poster above would do their job for them. That's the extent of it. It's a similar process for ada-mantia, cyrodiil, pretty much everything they dont want to admit as a retcon or marketing decision.
    Edited by psychotrip on February 5, 2021 5:08PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • QuebraRegra
    QuebraRegra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iccotak wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Come on, gang. If there's one thing we've learned since ESO released is that they'll retcon anything, even their own established lore, the moment it's inconvenient for them, because they know the community will find some way to make it "make sense". The loremaster left for a reason, after all.

    This is likely just some placeholder stuff, but after all these years none of us should be shocked or surprised if the devs come out and say "Adamantia has always looked like this, previous descriptions were just transcription errors".

    In either case, dont count on Zenimax to portray ES lore the way you expect them to. Thats a bet you'll lose almost every time.

    Unless you expect them to make something out of grey stone. Then you'll almost certainly be correct

    Lawrence is also 66 and probably at a point to go to a lower stress work environment - last I heard he was working on a small mobile game in Ireland. He perfectly trusts the new Lore Master

    wait whut? who's the new lore master?
  • Supreme_Atromancer
    Supreme_Atromancer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    Snowhawk is in TES Arena - not the first time ESO has referenced Arena. (Selene's Web, Fang Lair, Halls of Collosus, etc. ) https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Snowhawk

    And while Arena's lore wasn't developed enough to say this, Skyrim's lore leads me to suspect that "in-universe" the "hawk" is a reference to Kyne, as she's frequently represented as and associated with hawks. Alternatively, if we assume that the "Snowhawk Mage" is indeed specifically associated with the Arena town, TES 1 says their rival is Solitude, which we find out in Skyrim is known for the hawks circling around the Blue Palace. Maybe a fun bit of town rivalry?


    Now, sure, you can handwave that away as a fan making ESO's slapdash lore make more sense than the Marketing Department did.

    Personally, I suspect its a lot more likely that the TES Arena writers employed the time-honored D&D method of naming places by "making stuff up". Later writers looked back at their old lore and went "Hmmm, how can we build to this?"

    In the same way, can I really criticize the ESO designers for thinking "You know, all the dogs in TES V look alike, but it would make sense that the Nords would have dogs that they bred and trained to deal with the mountains, right?"

    I mean, don't get me wrong: Meeko's cute. But I'm pretty sure he's not the only dog breed in Skyrim.
    Meeko.jpg

    You guys do so much brilliant work making this nonsense make sense that it honestly makes me wish YOU were the ones in charge of making these decisions.

    But here's the harsh truth that I've learned after spending most of my life as an ES fan:

    No one with any influence in the decision-making process has thought of this anywhere near as deeply as you. I'm positive the hard working writers at Zenimax try their best to make this all work but they have very little control over this stuff.

    At the end of the day most of ESO's decisions are based around marketing and live-service engagement, not storytelling.

    This isn't 3D chess. They wanted to sell players a cute pet and they slapped a vaguely familiar name so that people like the poster above would do their job for them. That's the extent of it.

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    The difference would be a level of sincerity and care.
  • Supreme_Atromancer
    Supreme_Atromancer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iccotak wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Come on, gang. If there's one thing we've learned since ESO released is that they'll retcon anything, even their own established lore, the moment it's inconvenient for them, because they know the community will find some way to make it "make sense". The loremaster left for a reason, after all.

    This is likely just some placeholder stuff, but after all these years none of us should be shocked or surprised if the devs come out and say "Adamantia has always looked like this, previous descriptions were just transcription errors".

    In either case, dont count on Zenimax to portray ES lore the way you expect them to. Thats a bet you'll lose almost every time.

    Unless you expect them to make something out of grey stone. Then you'll almost certainly be correct

    Lawrence is also 66 and probably at a point to go to a lower stress work environment - last I heard he was working on a small mobile game in Ireland. He perfectly trusts the new Lore Master

    wait whut? who's the new lore master?

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Leamon_Tuttle
    Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on February 6, 2021 12:11AM
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    Snowhawk is in TES Arena - not the first time ESO has referenced Arena. (Selene's Web, Fang Lair, Halls of Collosus, etc. ) https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Snowhawk

    And while Arena's lore wasn't developed enough to say this, Skyrim's lore leads me to suspect that "in-universe" the "hawk" is a reference to Kyne, as she's frequently represented as and associated with hawks. Alternatively, if we assume that the "Snowhawk Mage" is indeed specifically associated with the Arena town, TES 1 says their rival is Solitude, which we find out in Skyrim is known for the hawks circling around the Blue Palace. Maybe a fun bit of town rivalry?


    Now, sure, you can handwave that away as a fan making ESO's slapdash lore make more sense than the Marketing Department did.

    Personally, I suspect its a lot more likely that the TES Arena writers employed the time-honored D&D method of naming places by "making stuff up". Later writers looked back at their old lore and went "Hmmm, how can we build to this?"

    In the same way, can I really criticize the ESO designers for thinking "You know, all the dogs in TES V look alike, but it would make sense that the Nords would have dogs that they bred and trained to deal with the mountains, right?"

    I mean, don't get me wrong: Meeko's cute. But I'm pretty sure he's not the only dog breed in Skyrim.
    Meeko.jpg

    You guys do so much brilliant work making this nonsense make sense that it honestly makes me wish YOU were the ones in charge of making these decisions.

    But here's the harsh truth that I've learned after spending most of my life as an ES fan:

    No one with any influence in the decision-making process has thought of this anywhere near as deeply as you. I'm positive the hard working writers at Zenimax try their best to make this all work but they have very little control over this stuff.

    At the end of the day most of ESO's decisions are based around marketing and live-service engagement, not storytelling.

    This isn't 3D chess. They wanted to sell players a cute pet and they slapped a vaguely familiar name so that people like the poster above would do their job for them. That's the extent of it.

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    The difference would be a level of sincerity and care.

    Perfectly put.
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.
    Edited by TheRimOfTheSky on February 11, 2021 12:50AM
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.
    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.

    That's open for interpretation. As far as I read it, they confirmed that they wanted to put something (in this case, a small Nordic altar) on the site of TESV's Fort Snowhawk because it's a strategic location and they didn't have plans for anything big there.

    It doesn't read to me like they're talking about Karthwatch, since Karthwatch is "something big", and is much bigger than what TESV had in that location (Broken Tower).
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    WTF is a Anthor Avalanche Dog?

    Anthorbred Avalanche Dog - "With this loyal dog at your side, you have a companion who can help you make it through even the most treacherous of avalanches in Pale Pass and other mountainous areas … even if it has to pull you out from under a pile of fallen snow and detritus".

    I see nothing unnatural in this dog. Seems to be quite good to any highlander.

    Its a St Bernard that doesn't really have anything to do with anything really, they just wanted to put it in, so they tacked a random lore name on it and called it a day. Its the same with a bunch of stuff in the crown store that you will see - reskinned dogs and bears with lazy names tacked onto them. Tell me what a Snowhawk mage is, for instance? The place doesn't exist in ESO's version of Skyrim, and if the concept had any sort of substance to it other than a random hat-drawn lore-name to it, why don't we know about it? Ways can be found to contrive reasons or whatever, but when you're working with something that hasn't really been handled with much thought at all, it feels forced and unsatisfying.

    Snowhawk is in TES Arena - not the first time ESO has referenced Arena. (Selene's Web, Fang Lair, Halls of Collosus, etc. ) https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Snowhawk

    And while Arena's lore wasn't developed enough to say this, Skyrim's lore leads me to suspect that "in-universe" the "hawk" is a reference to Kyne, as she's frequently represented as and associated with hawks. Alternatively, if we assume that the "Snowhawk Mage" is indeed specifically associated with the Arena town, TES 1 says their rival is Solitude, which we find out in Skyrim is known for the hawks circling around the Blue Palace. Maybe a fun bit of town rivalry?


    Now, sure, you can handwave that away as a fan making ESO's slapdash lore make more sense than the Marketing Department did.

    Personally, I suspect its a lot more likely that the TES Arena writers employed the time-honored D&D method of naming places by "making stuff up". Later writers looked back at their old lore and went "Hmmm, how can we build to this?"

    In the same way, can I really criticize the ESO designers for thinking "You know, all the dogs in TES V look alike, but it would make sense that the Nords would have dogs that they bred and trained to deal with the mountains, right?"

    I mean, don't get me wrong: Meeko's cute. But I'm pretty sure he's not the only dog breed in Skyrim.
    Meeko.jpg

    You guys do so much brilliant work making this nonsense make sense that it honestly makes me wish YOU were the ones in charge of making these decisions.

    But here's the harsh truth that I've learned after spending most of my life as an ES fan:

    No one with any influence in the decision-making process has thought of this anywhere near as deeply as you. I'm positive the hard working writers at Zenimax try their best to make this all work but they have very little control over this stuff.

    At the end of the day most of ESO's decisions are based around marketing and live-service engagement, not storytelling.

    This isn't 3D chess. They wanted to sell players a cute pet and they slapped a vaguely familiar name so that people like the poster above would do their job for them. That's the extent of it.

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    The difference would be a level of sincerity and care.

    This exactly, if Zenimax could at least pay attention every once in a while and spend resources on something that has been very important to the franchise's history since 1996, it would help out a lot
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    Hmm, a new tutorial level in Balfiera? Haven't heard of it yet, thank you, Enodoc! That's interesting. I have several ideas (including contradicting ones) on this tower and here I'll just share one of the most interesting of them to me that once came to my mind. At least it gives some possible answers to some questions, though it has it's cons too, of course.

    The Direnni Tower has always been not that magnificent to me in comparison to the White Gold one. I agree with the fellow lore scholars on those contradictions about this tower and in an attempt to solve them among many other contradictions I once developed that New Elven Chronology I published some time ago in this section of the forums. It's still under development and correction since I'm developing it alone. One of it's articles is about the Zero Tower, so I'll just share that part of the theory on it here (see more references to the lore in the New Elven Chronology Theory and List of Dates threads), those pros in the lore that can give room to a possibility that this tower was indeed built by the Ayleids as many of you have already pointed at it's design, and according to the theory it was actually built after the White Gold Tower that should be considered as an actual "Zero Tower". Within that theory the inconsistency between the things we read in the books and the things we actually see is explained by a fake pro-altmeri chronology invented by the High Elves in order to justify their higher heritage among other Elves, and supported by the Imperial Geographical Society.

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Aldmer we know of from the chronicles are actually the Ayleids - the first and the only Elven heirs to the Old Ehlnofey who split in many other modern and passed Elven factions in the times following the greatest Narfinsel Schism, that devided them into the Aedraphiles and Daedraphiles, in the times of it's climax in 1E 198 at the Scouring of Wendelbek, and finally during the Alessian Rebellion in 1E 243. This could be a quite long period of the Ayleid-Aldmeri dissolution and the exodus of many factions from Aldmeris - an island known today as the Imperial City island, when they travelled in all the directions from the Heartland ([Heartland). The undoubtful Altmeri history, according to the theory, begins only after 1E 500s when they decided to take some Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell, so in that theory the Altmer are the youngest elven race among all the other, i.e. the ones who left the Heartland being the last of all the other elven races who likewise were the Ayleid descendants, not the Altmeri ones. But that's the other topic.

    So, according to the views within the theory, in the Dawn Era, or quite some time before the first historical records of the First Era, before letting the Wandering Ehlnofey drag the body of dead Lorkhan, Auriel tore out his Heart. We all know that this very event is also much doubted by the Khajiiti ri'Datta and pre-ri'Datta sources, so all we can be sure on is that someone tore out the Heart of Lorkhan out of his chest. Let it be Auriel here. The blood dropping from it was used to create the Chim-el Adabal - "The Amulet of the Kings of Glory, pendant of the red diamond Chim-el Adabal, Ayleid relic of Divine investiture." The body of Lorkhan was left to the Wandering Ehlnofey while his Heart was brought to Red Mountain to be buried forever in it's crater (for as we know, the arrows shot by a common mortal using Auriel's Bow can reach the sun - the arrow with the Heart tied to it could barely fall being shot by a god in spite of what legends tell us in those books). To commemorate their victory over the Wandering Ehlnofey a monument was constructed in Heartland - "the White Gold Tower which was built many ages ago by the godless, Daedra-loving Ayleids", "Ayleids of the Heartland" - "They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal, said to be crystallized blood from the Heart of Lorkhan itself. .. Thus did White-Gold become Tower One. As all know.".

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Ada-Mantia will be built much later and used just "as a fortress, prison, and palace by the infamous Direnni Hegemony". Adamantine Tower, it is called, "for the unknown, ageless material from which it is built" - but, unlike the White Gold Tower's one, the material the Direnni Tower is constructed of is well known - it's not that great. So many things in the lore tell me of the Adamantine Tower's total historical and practical insignificance - built by the Direnni the way Pelladil Direnni used to build other structures by summoning an army of Stone Atronachs (possibly!) on a distant island, this tower seems to emulate the White Gold one after the Alessians captured the Imperial City, not vice versa.

    No undoubted really great historical events happened there with only some books telling us of some mythical "pre-Dawn Era" magnificent events and legends of a very doubtful nature. No great purpose, no great history - nothing. Unlike the other towers nobody has ever fought seriously to get the Adamantine Tower's "Zero Stone" or to conquer it - even Molag Bal placed no anchor over it today in 2E 582 (at least I haven't seen it). So, this "fake" tower could be called Direnni Tower for a reason at least until the devs develop it's lore some other way. Compare it all with the history and significance of the White Gold Tower they created to understand what I mean - the books on the Direnni Tower might trick us.

    Anyway, it's just a part of a part of a quite big theory, so it has many pros and cons, of course. Oh, and by the way, 4 years ago the Direnni Tower was quite reachable from Stormhaven. Not sure if Sotha Sil has left that gap unclosed yet using thd help of the Spirit of Limitation, but that tower was quite interesting to observe standing so close to it. Perhaps, I should check it out again.

    This is a hella good write-up! I like the direction of it; not sure what hoops the writers would have to jump through to explain a non-WGT copy, I think they could just put in the new model and pretend the old re-used one never existed
  • wenchmore420b14_ESO
    wenchmore420b14_ESO
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    ✭✭✭
    Ok. I so LOVE TES lore. I really thought I was good till I started ESO in 2013.
    Book marked this thread as I found it insightful.
    But, about Tower Zero, Adamantine Tower, what ever you call it, the lore is pretty set about how it was built to bring Lorkin to trial, and yes I feel they, ZoS, missed it.
    I may have missed it in this thread, and I don't know how, but WHY hasn't anyone posted a pic of the tower from Daggerfall?

    It was blocky and square. That was the Adamantine Tower originally.
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  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Within the New Elven Chronology the Aldmer we know of from the chronicles are actually the Ayleids - the first and the only Elven heirs to the Old Ehlnofey who split in many other modern and passed Elven factions in the times following the greatest Narfinsel Schism, that devided them into the Aedraphiles and Daedraphiles, in the times of it's climax in 1E 198 at the Scouring of Wendelbek, and finally during the Alessian Rebellion in 1E 243. This could be a quite long period of the Ayleid-Aldmeri dissolution and the exodus of many factions from Aldmeris - an island known today as the Imperial City island, when they travelled in all the directions from the Heartland ([Heartland). The undoubtful Altmeri history, according to the theory, begins only after 1E 500s when they decided to take some Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell, so in that theory the Altmer are the youngest elven race among all the other, i.e. the ones who left the Heartland being the last of all the other elven races who likewise were the Ayleid descendants, not the Altmeri ones. But that's the other topic.

    So, according to the views within the theory, in the Dawn Era, or quite some time before the first historical records of the First Era, before letting the Wandering Ehlnofey drag the body of dead Lorkhan, Auriel tore out his Heart. We all know that this very event is also much doubted by the Khajiiti ri'Datta and pre-ri'Datta sources, so all we can be sure on is that someone tore out the Heart of Lorkhan out of his chest. Let it be Auriel here. The blood dropping from it was used to create the Chim-el Adabal - "The Amulet of the Kings of Glory, pendant of the red diamond Chim-el Adabal, Ayleid relic of Divine investiture." The body of Lorkhan was left to the Wandering Ehlnofey while his Heart was brought to Red Mountain to be buried forever in it's crater (for as we know, the arrows shot by a common mortal using Auriel's Bow can reach the sun - the arrow with the Heart tied to it could barely fall being shot by a god in spite of what legends tell us in those books). To commemorate their victory over the Wandering Ehlnofey a monument was constructed in Heartland - "the White Gold Tower which was built many ages ago by the godless, Daedra-loving Ayleids", "Ayleids of the Heartland" - "They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal, said to be crystallized blood from the Heart of Lorkhan itself. .. Thus did White-Gold become Tower One. As all know.".

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Ada-Mantia will be built much later and used just "as a fortress, prison, and palace by the infamous Direnni Hegemony". Adamantine Tower, it is called, "for the unknown, ageless material from which it is built" - but, unlike the White Gold Tower's one, the material the Direnni Tower is constructed of is well known - it's not that great. So many things in the lore tell me of the Adamantine Tower's total historical and practical insignificance - built by the Direnni the way Pelladil Direnni used to build other structures by summoning an army of Stone Atronachs (possibly!) on a distant island, this tower seems to emulate the White Gold one after the Alessians captured the Imperial City, not vice versa.

    No undoubted really great historical events happened there with only some books telling us of some mythical "pre-Dawn Era" magnificent events and legends of a very doubtful nature. No great purpose, no great history - nothing. Unlike the other towers nobody has ever fought seriously to get the Adamantine Tower's "Zero Stone" or to conquer it - even Molag Bal placed no anchor over it today in 2E 582 (at least I haven't seen it). So, this "fake" tower could be called Direnni Tower for a reason at least until the devs develop it's lore some other way. Compare it all with the history and significance of the White Gold Tower they created to understand what I mean - the books on the Direnni Tower might trick us.

    Just trying to summarise this... so if the Aldmer were actually the Ayleids, and White-Gold Tower was built first, then Direnni Tower was built to look like White-Gold Tower. But you have still repeated the bit I mentioned that it's built of Adamantium, a well-known material that is a dull grey metal, not the same white stone as WGT. So there remains no reason for it to use the same model as White-Gold Tower (Imperial Palace and all).
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  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Within the New Elven Chronology the Aldmer we know of from the chronicles are actually the Ayleids - the first and the only Elven heirs to the Old Ehlnofey who split in many other modern and passed Elven factions in the times following the greatest Narfinsel Schism, that devided them into the Aedraphiles and Daedraphiles, in the times of it's climax in 1E 198 at the Scouring of Wendelbek, and finally during the Alessian Rebellion in 1E 243. This could be a quite long period of the Ayleid-Aldmeri dissolution and the exodus of many factions from Aldmeris - an island known today as the Imperial City island, when they travelled in all the directions from the Heartland ([Heartland). The undoubtful Altmeri history, according to the theory, begins only after 1E 500s when they decided to take some Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell, so in that theory the Altmer are the youngest elven race among all the other, i.e. the ones who left the Heartland being the last of all the other elven races who likewise were the Ayleid descendants, not the Altmeri ones. But that's the other topic.

    So, according to the views within the theory, in the Dawn Era, or quite some time before the first historical records of the First Era, before letting the Wandering Ehlnofey drag the body of dead Lorkhan, Auriel tore out his Heart. We all know that this very event is also much doubted by the Khajiiti ri'Datta and pre-ri'Datta sources, so all we can be sure on is that someone tore out the Heart of Lorkhan out of his chest. Let it be Auriel here. The blood dropping from it was used to create the Chim-el Adabal - "The Amulet of the Kings of Glory, pendant of the red diamond Chim-el Adabal, Ayleid relic of Divine investiture." The body of Lorkhan was left to the Wandering Ehlnofey while his Heart was brought to Red Mountain to be buried forever in it's crater (for as we know, the arrows shot by a common mortal using Auriel's Bow can reach the sun - the arrow with the Heart tied to it could barely fall being shot by a god in spite of what legends tell us in those books). To commemorate their victory over the Wandering Ehlnofey a monument was constructed in Heartland - "the White Gold Tower which was built many ages ago by the godless, Daedra-loving Ayleids", "Ayleids of the Heartland" - "They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal, said to be crystallized blood from the Heart of Lorkhan itself. .. Thus did White-Gold become Tower One. As all know.".

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Ada-Mantia will be built much later and used just "as a fortress, prison, and palace by the infamous Direnni Hegemony". Adamantine Tower, it is called, "for the unknown, ageless material from which it is built" - but, unlike the White Gold Tower's one, the material the Direnni Tower is constructed of is well known - it's not that great. So many things in the lore tell me of the Adamantine Tower's total historical and practical insignificance - built by the Direnni the way Pelladil Direnni used to build other structures by summoning an army of Stone Atronachs (possibly!) on a distant island, this tower seems to emulate the White Gold one after the Alessians captured the Imperial City, not vice versa.

    No undoubted really great historical events happened there with only some books telling us of some mythical "pre-Dawn Era" magnificent events and legends of a very doubtful nature. No great purpose, no great history - nothing. Unlike the other towers nobody has ever fought seriously to get the Adamantine Tower's "Zero Stone" or to conquer it - even Molag Bal placed no anchor over it today in 2E 582 (at least I haven't seen it). So, this "fake" tower could be called Direnni Tower for a reason at least until the devs develop it's lore some other way. Compare it all with the history and significance of the White Gold Tower they created to understand what I mean - the books on the Direnni Tower might trick us.

    Just trying to summarise this... so if the Aldmer were actually the Ayleids, and White-Gold Tower was built first, then Direnni Tower was built to look like White-Gold Tower. But you have still repeated the bit I mentioned that it's built of Adamantium, a well-known material that is a dull grey metal, not the same white stone as WGT. So there remains no reason for it to use the same model as White-Gold Tower (Imperial Palace and all).

    Yes, the summary is correct. Well, at least currently, because I do correct the whole idea as soon as I find some inconsistencies. It's just a theory after all, and I have never viewed and said it to be the only truth. The main thing, the base, the entire theory is built around, is Aicantar of Shimmerene and the denial of his writings. He wrote realy much and his ideas are very influential - not only the players consider him as a reliable author, constantly referencing his works, but also the scholars of the Imperial Geographical Society do almost the same. My opinion is that while the IGS can simply be incorrect in some statements (like the one that it was the Nerevarine who killed Sotha Sil in 3E 427), Aicantar is a total liar and a pro-altmeri propagandist. The rest of the theory is just an attempt to find out the truth in chronology, because, as my research shows it, the main two things he did was, first, changing the chronology of the history (some events were placed into the ancient times, while the old ones were shifted to the earlier ages) and, the second one, was mixing (on paper) the High Elves of Cyrodiil with the High Elves of Summerset. My research currently shows that the "Ayleids" was the word the High Elves of Cyrodiil called themselves, while the "Aldmer" is the word used by the High Elves of Summerset to call their ancestors, i.e. Ayleids. My research showed that the Narfinsel Schism in Ayleid society and it's end in 1E 198 after hundreds of years, was the turning point in all the elven history - that was the reason why the groups of Elves spread in all directions from Cyrodiil, from the Imperial Island - the place possibly called "Aldmeris". Well, it's a brief basics in order to understand the idea. Once again - it's a theory, Enodoc. Just a thing to let people spend some time thinking of something interesting :).

    About the Zero Tower's model - well, all I wanted to say, was that I was against those desires of some fellow players to change the in-game models. This is not the first time they propose this. I've been playing TES games for decades, I know the developers are not stupid. Yes, they do change some models in the game, yes there are inconsistencies, but my experience shows, that things they do not change, can still be both explained lore-wise or theorized on. That makes that world even more interesting! Changing something in an object's appearance can annihilate that explanation and make the world less rich on lore content. So, this is it.

    By the way, Enodoc, I'm currently checking something that is absent on a certain UESP page, but is present in the game. d like the esteemed UESP team to look into it and, if you find the information correct, to add in some small line in there. The thing I found is not shocking or something, it's just a small detail in the ESO that could be helpful to roleplayers and anyone who would like to style themselves in a certain way. Well, we'll see. I'll make a thread here soon and will mention you and Aliyavana there to take a critical look at it and decide if it is worthy of mentioning on the UESP. Thank you in advance!
  • Atharaon
    Atharaon
    ✭✭✭
    Well, at least currently, because I do correct the whole idea as soon as I find some inconsistencies. It's just a theory after all, and I have never viewed and said it to be the only truth.
    I read over your theory when you first posted it and I've been meaning to ask to chat with you about it for a number of reasons but other things keep distracting me from doing so. Full disclosure: I don't buy into it, but I am interested in the ideas and motivation behind it, and the possibility of an alternative narrative is always fun to look at. Aicantar is a perpetual thorn in my side, haha!
  • Aigym_Hlervu
    Aigym_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Atharaon wrote: »
    Well, at least currently, because I do correct the whole idea as soon as I find some inconsistencies. It's just a theory after all, and I have never viewed and said it to be the only truth.
    I read over your theory when you first posted it and I've been meaning to ask to chat with you about it for a number of reasons but other things keep distracting me from doing so. Full disclosure: I don't buy into it, but I am interested in the ideas and motivation behind it, and the possibility of an alternative narrative is always fun to look at. Aicantar is a perpetual thorn in my side, haha!

    Sure, it's only up to you to decide if you accept the theory or reject it. Thank you for reading it :). Feel free to write me, if you wish, I'm absolutely open to discussions. Some things I dislike a bit, though, are impolite talks (including some teen lexicon as if a player is still a teen..), militant philosophical idealism used as the base to understand and explain the lore, and the support of the activity of the Covenant, Dominion, Empire (the political institutions, not their respected nations), Dagoth Ur, necromancers, vampires, House Hlaalu and Camonna Tong, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood :). In all other cases I'm generally a respectful and friendly colloquist. Thanks again, Atharaon! Have a great day there.
    Edited by Aigym_Hlervu on February 14, 2021 11:20PM
  • Crazyprophet
    Crazyprophet
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    The Ayleids and the Direnni had a lot of similarities to be totally fair. I don't think it's a total stretch that the towers would look alike.
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
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    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.

    Is Snowhawk on the Karth river in Skyrim? I cant remember. Its near Morthal right? Why is it called Karthwatch?
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
  • Supreme_Atromancer
    Supreme_Atromancer
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.
    psychotrip wrote: »

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.

    Is Snowhawk on the Karth river in Skyrim? I cant remember. Its near Morthal right? Why is it called Karthwatch?

    Yeah, CJ is flat-out wrong. Broken Tower Redoubt exists in the corresponding "important place" in TES5, and Fort Snowhawk is near Morthal in TES5: the corresponding point on ESO's map has nothing but some very lowscale ancient nord foundation. We can be confident this is the case because they did a great job at making the two maps practically identical. Any point you travel to on ESO' Western Skyrim, you can easily find in TES5. Comparing the maps of both games its easy to see Broken Tower stands where Karthold is in ESO - with the Karth River, the ridge, the bridge crossing it all in the same place. Hell, the layout of Morthal's marshes are so similar that each little waterway is exactly the same, and we can easily see the exact point where Fort Snowhawk was in TES5. They got it wrong. A slip up on a live stream isn't some big deal, but they're naming stuff after things that simply don't exist at this point in time in the game probably because they don't have a great handle on the lore. Its the same as with the "Greymoor" chapter which has nothing to do with the ruined fort called Greymoor in the next hold over. Mistakes are going to happen, for sure, but there's a distinct trend of really sloppy, careless work. And I get that you have to take some things not so seriously - that's true. Conversely, if you're going to tackle a franchise loved primarily for its lore and exploration, you kind of have an expectation of getting that stuff right.

    At the end of the day, its not so much about some feral nerds combing over every single thing waiting to spring on the tiniest mistake - a lot of people love the lore, and just love to explore, that's what the franchise is for many people. When I heard about Greymoor, I was very intrigued. Cool, let's see what the mystery behind why they're called the same thing. With "Snowhawk Mages" I remember there being a little bit of lore around Snowhawk, and remember seeing it as a ruin in Skyrim. I was very excited to go and explore and find out who these mysterious mages were, and what their connection to Snowhawk City/Ruin might be. The only reward for such exploration so typically is the knowledge that there was a lack of genuine care when writing and there's no reason to care or be invested because someone probably just threw some random-hat name on it and called it a day.

    Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on February 16, 2021 4:22PM
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.
    psychotrip wrote: »

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.

    Is Snowhawk on the Karth river in Skyrim? I cant remember. Its near Morthal right? Why is it called Karthwatch?

    Yeah, CJ is flat-out wrong. Broken Tower Redoubt exists in the corresponding "important place" in TES5, and Fort Snowhawk is near Morthal in TES5: the corresponding point on ESO's map has nothing but some very lowscale ancient nord foundation. We can be confident this is the case because they did a great job at making the two maps practically identical. Any point you travel to on ESO' Western Skyrim, you can easily find in TES5. Comparing the maps of both games its easy to see Broken Tower stands where Karthold is in ESO - with the Karth River, the ridge, the bridge crossing it all in the same place. Hell, the layout of Morthal's marshes are so similar that each little waterway is exactly the same, and we can easily see the exact point where Fort Snowhawk was in TES5. They got it wrong. A slip up on a live stream isn't some big deal, but they're naming stuff after things that simply don't exist at this point in time in the game probably because they don't have a great handle on the lore. Its the same as with the "Greymoor" chapter which has nothing to do with the ruined fort called Greymoor in the next hold over. Mistakes are going to happen, for sure, but there's a distinct trend of really sloppy, careless work. And I get that you have to take some things not so seriously - that's true. Conversely, if you're going to tackle a franchise loved primarily for its lore and exploration, you kind of have an expectation of getting that stuff right.

    At the end of the day, its not so much about some feral nerds combing over every single thing waiting to spring on the tiniest mistake - a lot of people love the lore, and just love to explore, that's what the franchise is for many people. When I heard about Greymoor, I was very intrigued. Cool, let's see what the mystery behind why they're called the same thing. With "Snowhawk Mages" I remember there being a little bit of lore around Snowhawk, and remember seeing it as a ruin in Skyrim. I was very excited to go and explore and find out who these mysterious mages were, and what their connection to Snowhawk City/Ruin might be. The only reward for such exploration so typically is the knowledge that there was a lack of genuine care when writing and there's no reason to care or be invested because someone probably just threw some random-hat name on it and called it a day.

    I think it was mostly just that they tried to make it closer to the Arena location
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    Ok. I so LOVE TES lore. I really thought I was good till I started ESO in 2013.
    Book marked this thread as I found it insightful.
    But, about Tower Zero, Adamantine Tower, what ever you call it, the lore is pretty set about how it was built to bring Lorkin to trial, and yes I feel they, ZoS, missed it.
    I may have missed it in this thread, and I don't know how, but WHY hasn't anyone posted a pic of the tower from Daggerfall?

    It was blocky and square. That was the Adamantine Tower originally.
    Just saying, my 2 drakes!
    Huzzah!

    Do you mean, this picture of it being "blocky and square"?
    DF-place-Direnni_Tower.jpg

    Guys, do you understand that this "blocky and square" tower is the tower of 3E 405, while the one we see in the ESO is of the 2E 582? It's 719 years between those dates. Why do you ignore the Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: High Rock stating that - "Direnni Tower, a circular tower soaring hundreds of feet into the sky. .. Although it has been much modified and added on to over the years, its core is a smooth cylinder of shining metal; the Tower is believed to extend at least as far beneath the surface as is now visible above, although its deepest bowels have never been systematically explored".
    Hrerm House-builder, Bards College, Solitude wrote it pretty clear too - "The Direnni High Elves have ruled Balfiera since the beginning of the First Era. In common parlance the tower bears their name, though they can claim only the construction of the more recent keep that clusters around the tower's base".

    Can you understand, that the Tower was rebuilt several times? Yes, it is the way to explain why in different games the tower looks differently, but the developers missed nothing here and explained everything in the lore. Why do you ignore the lore and keep insisting that the developers missed something and the in-game models should be changed? The lore is the thing that makes TES the ES, without it, it would be pretty much a "pinball" game. All the game mechanics, graphics, 3D models, etc. you'd like to change, depend on the lore first. The lore, the fictional world and it's features, is the very base, the foundation of the game, not your private views on the quality of some 3D models, colors, etc. If the tower looks one way instead of the other, then there should be reasons to it, and we are to find those reasons, to theorize if needed, before accusing the developers in the lack of lore knowledge and in missing something.

    Once I have also spent quite some time to gather this information on what should be considered true, canon, lore in the Elder Scrolls. It was not me to define the rules stated there, I just tracked the sources, watched that several hours video and even made time stamps for you, so you don't have to spend your time watching that all, but nonetheless, you totally ignore it too. In short: there is a certain order in TES of what should be considered true or not. Reading something in a book never makes it "pretty set about" anything, because the things you see on your screen have a higher priority.

    If you read a book that Emeric is an honest man, but in the game he is a warmongering murderer who killed numerous innocent people, than he is a butcher, not a noble in spite of anything written in a book. The same goes to this tower - we have various possibilities of it's origins and nothing is "pretty set about" it. That is not something the developers "missed" or "retconned" at all - all the Elder Scrolls lore is just like the lore IRL, it operates possibilities and the most true things are the ones you witness yourself, everything else is pretty much based on your beliefs, suggestibility, logic, knowledge, analytical abilities, free time to study the object and other such things, since we are not time travelers and cannot be omniscient, all-knowing. The approach is really great and the series is great because of it too, and it all works the way it is described - check the link I gave up there first before argueing, insisting on your opinion that so much should be changed because you "don't "like it's appearance" or something, still ignoring things the developers tell you, the game tells you, I retell you, [snip]

    [edited for baiting]

    All good points, I think mainly everybody wants a unique design considering how much the earliest descriptions can provide so much imaginative creativity rather than a WGT copy
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Within the New Elven Chronology the Aldmer we know of from the chronicles are actually the Ayleids - the first and the only Elven heirs to the Old Ehlnofey who split in many other modern and passed Elven factions in the times following the greatest Narfinsel Schism, that devided them into the Aedraphiles and Daedraphiles, in the times of it's climax in 1E 198 at the Scouring of Wendelbek, and finally during the Alessian Rebellion in 1E 243. This could be a quite long period of the Ayleid-Aldmeri dissolution and the exodus of many factions from Aldmeris - an island known today as the Imperial City island, when they travelled in all the directions from the Heartland ([Heartland). The undoubtful Altmeri history, according to the theory, begins only after 1E 500s when they decided to take some Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell, so in that theory the Altmer are the youngest elven race among all the other, i.e. the ones who left the Heartland being the last of all the other elven races who likewise were the Ayleid descendants, not the Altmeri ones. But that's the other topic.

    So, according to the views within the theory, in the Dawn Era, or quite some time before the first historical records of the First Era, before letting the Wandering Ehlnofey drag the body of dead Lorkhan, Auriel tore out his Heart. We all know that this very event is also much doubted by the Khajiiti ri'Datta and pre-ri'Datta sources, so all we can be sure on is that someone tore out the Heart of Lorkhan out of his chest. Let it be Auriel here. The blood dropping from it was used to create the Chim-el Adabal - "The Amulet of the Kings of Glory, pendant of the red diamond Chim-el Adabal, Ayleid relic of Divine investiture." The body of Lorkhan was left to the Wandering Ehlnofey while his Heart was brought to Red Mountain to be buried forever in it's crater (for as we know, the arrows shot by a common mortal using Auriel's Bow can reach the sun - the arrow with the Heart tied to it could barely fall being shot by a god in spite of what legends tell us in those books). To commemorate their victory over the Wandering Ehlnofey a monument was constructed in Heartland - "the White Gold Tower which was built many ages ago by the godless, Daedra-loving Ayleids", "Ayleids of the Heartland" - "They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal, said to be crystallized blood from the Heart of Lorkhan itself. .. Thus did White-Gold become Tower One. As all know.".

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Ada-Mantia will be built much later and used just "as a fortress, prison, and palace by the infamous Direnni Hegemony". Adamantine Tower, it is called, "for the unknown, ageless material from which it is built" - but, unlike the White Gold Tower's one, the material the Direnni Tower is constructed of is well known - it's not that great. So many things in the lore tell me of the Adamantine Tower's total historical and practical insignificance - built by the Direnni the way Pelladil Direnni used to build other structures by summoning an army of Stone Atronachs (possibly!) on a distant island, this tower seems to emulate the White Gold one after the Alessians captured the Imperial City, not vice versa.

    No undoubted really great historical events happened there with only some books telling us of some mythical "pre-Dawn Era" magnificent events and legends of a very doubtful nature. No great purpose, no great history - nothing. Unlike the other towers nobody has ever fought seriously to get the Adamantine Tower's "Zero Stone" or to conquer it - even Molag Bal placed no anchor over it today in 2E 582 (at least I haven't seen it). So, this "fake" tower could be called Direnni Tower for a reason at least until the devs develop it's lore some other way. Compare it all with the history and significance of the White Gold Tower they created to understand what I mean - the books on the Direnni Tower might trick us.

    Just trying to summarise this... so if the Aldmer were actually the Ayleids, and White-Gold Tower was built first, then Direnni Tower was built to look like White-Gold Tower. But you have still repeated the bit I mentioned that it's built of Adamantium, a well-known material that is a dull grey metal, not the same white stone as WGT. So there remains no reason for it to use the same model as White-Gold Tower (Imperial Palace and all).

    Agreed, they could make it a very shiny silver of Adamantium or do the green color that Adamantite has

    TR-ing-Adamantium_Ore.jpg
    ON-icon-style_material-Adamantite.png
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Within the New Elven Chronology the Aldmer we know of from the chronicles are actually the Ayleids - the first and the only Elven heirs to the Old Ehlnofey who split in many other modern and passed Elven factions in the times following the greatest Narfinsel Schism, that devided them into the Aedraphiles and Daedraphiles, in the times of it's climax in 1E 198 at the Scouring of Wendelbek, and finally during the Alessian Rebellion in 1E 243. This could be a quite long period of the Ayleid-Aldmeri dissolution and the exodus of many factions from Aldmeris - an island known today as the Imperial City island, when they travelled in all the directions from the Heartland ([Heartland). The undoubtful Altmeri history, according to the theory, begins only after 1E 500s when they decided to take some Ayleid ruins in Hammerfell, so in that theory the Altmer are the youngest elven race among all the other, i.e. the ones who left the Heartland being the last of all the other elven races who likewise were the Ayleid descendants, not the Altmeri ones. But that's the other topic.

    So, according to the views within the theory, in the Dawn Era, or quite some time before the first historical records of the First Era, before letting the Wandering Ehlnofey drag the body of dead Lorkhan, Auriel tore out his Heart. We all know that this very event is also much doubted by the Khajiiti ri'Datta and pre-ri'Datta sources, so all we can be sure on is that someone tore out the Heart of Lorkhan out of his chest. Let it be Auriel here. The blood dropping from it was used to create the Chim-el Adabal - "The Amulet of the Kings of Glory, pendant of the red diamond Chim-el Adabal, Ayleid relic of Divine investiture." The body of Lorkhan was left to the Wandering Ehlnofey while his Heart was brought to Red Mountain to be buried forever in it's crater (for as we know, the arrows shot by a common mortal using Auriel's Bow can reach the sun - the arrow with the Heart tied to it could barely fall being shot by a god in spite of what legends tell us in those books). To commemorate their victory over the Wandering Ehlnofey a monument was constructed in Heartland - "the White Gold Tower which was built many ages ago by the godless, Daedra-loving Ayleids", "Ayleids of the Heartland" - "They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal, said to be crystallized blood from the Heart of Lorkhan itself. .. Thus did White-Gold become Tower One. As all know.".

    Within the New Elven Chronology the Ada-Mantia will be built much later and used just "as a fortress, prison, and palace by the infamous Direnni Hegemony". Adamantine Tower, it is called, "for the unknown, ageless material from which it is built" - but, unlike the White Gold Tower's one, the material the Direnni Tower is constructed of is well known - it's not that great. So many things in the lore tell me of the Adamantine Tower's total historical and practical insignificance - built by the Direnni the way Pelladil Direnni used to build other structures by summoning an army of Stone Atronachs (possibly!) on a distant island, this tower seems to emulate the White Gold one after the Alessians captured the Imperial City, not vice versa.

    No undoubted really great historical events happened there with only some books telling us of some mythical "pre-Dawn Era" magnificent events and legends of a very doubtful nature. No great purpose, no great history - nothing. Unlike the other towers nobody has ever fought seriously to get the Adamantine Tower's "Zero Stone" or to conquer it - even Molag Bal placed no anchor over it today in 2E 582 (at least I haven't seen it). So, this "fake" tower could be called Direnni Tower for a reason at least until the devs develop it's lore some other way. Compare it all with the history and significance of the White Gold Tower they created to understand what I mean - the books on the Direnni Tower might trick us.

    Just trying to summarise this... so if the Aldmer were actually the Ayleids, and White-Gold Tower was built first, then Direnni Tower was built to look like White-Gold Tower. But you have still repeated the bit I mentioned that it's built of Adamantium, a well-known material that is a dull grey metal, not the same white stone as WGT. So there remains no reason for it to use the same model as White-Gold Tower (Imperial Palace and all).

    Lol remember when the Ayleids were Heartland High Elves?

    I respect what I read of this, but this all just feels like an increasingly convoluted attempt for the community to piece together plotholes and retcons, while the actual company is just trying to make money by re-using assets.

    So in other words, it's an ESO lore debate.

    ^ This exactly lol
  • Supreme_Atromancer
    Supreme_Atromancer
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    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.
    psychotrip wrote: »

    In the Marketing Department's defense, most of those two minutes were spent googling to make sure I remembered rightly that Snowhawk was from Arena. :lol: The rest was me speculating on how later writers built on what was probably a one-off name from the Arena team.

    Maybe its my D&D background coming in here, but "making stuff up" and then building up the lore around it is pretty normal. TES Arena was pretty much a homebrew D&D game. The Marketing Department seems to have a similar approach to some of my friends' D&D campaigns: "Ooh, I like that! How can I make it fit in the world?"

    Is it highbrow Tolkien-style world building and lore crafting?
    Nah.
    But not everything has to be.

    If it helps, they confirmed that Karthwatch is Snowhawk, it just hasn't been named that at this point in history.

    Is Snowhawk on the Karth river in Skyrim? I cant remember. Its near Morthal right? Why is it called Karthwatch?

    Yeah, CJ is flat-out wrong. Broken Tower Redoubt exists in the corresponding "important place" in TES5, and Fort Snowhawk is near Morthal in TES5: the corresponding point on ESO's map has nothing but some very lowscale ancient nord foundation. We can be confident this is the case because they did a great job at making the two maps practically identical. Any point you travel to on ESO' Western Skyrim, you can easily find in TES5. Comparing the maps of both games its easy to see Broken Tower stands where Karthold is in ESO - with the Karth River, the ridge, the bridge crossing it all in the same place. Hell, the layout of Morthal's marshes are so similar that each little waterway is exactly the same, and we can easily see the exact point where Fort Snowhawk was in TES5. They got it wrong. A slip up on a live stream isn't some big deal, but they're naming stuff after things that simply don't exist at this point in time in the game probably because they don't have a great handle on the lore. Its the same as with the "Greymoor" chapter which has nothing to do with the ruined fort called Greymoor in the next hold over. Mistakes are going to happen, for sure, but there's a distinct trend of really sloppy, careless work. And I get that you have to take some things not so seriously - that's true. Conversely, if you're going to tackle a franchise loved primarily for its lore and exploration, you kind of have an expectation of getting that stuff right.

    At the end of the day, its not so much about some feral nerds combing over every single thing waiting to spring on the tiniest mistake - a lot of people love the lore, and just love to explore, that's what the franchise is for many people. When I heard about Greymoor, I was very intrigued. Cool, let's see what the mystery behind why they're called the same thing. With "Snowhawk Mages" I remember there being a little bit of lore around Snowhawk, and remember seeing it as a ruin in Skyrim. I was very excited to go and explore and find out who these mysterious mages were, and what their connection to Snowhawk City/Ruin might be. The only reward for such exploration so typically is the knowledge that there was a lack of genuine care when writing and there's no reason to care or be invested because someone probably just threw some random-hat name on it and called it a day.

    I think it was mostly just that they tried to make it closer to the Arena location
    Yeah, we did that with Snowhawk, because we didn’t have any plans to put anything big there like there is in TES V, but we wanted to put something there because obviously the location is strategic, and it felt that there should be something here, right? So let’s work with the writers and work with the worldbuilders to put Karthwatch there to mark it

    They wanted to put Karthwatch there because the location is "something big and obviously important" in TES5. They aren't anticipating Arena's Snowhawk, he just made a mistake. It would be nice to think that there is all these hidden, lore-minded reasons, but when you pay close enough attention its hard not to come to the conclusion that the "reason" is just that they didn't bother.
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    The Ayleids and the Direnni had a lot of similarities to be totally fair. I don't think it's a total stretch that the towers would look alike.

    it could but they rly dont need to be identical, its simply more interesting and creative if they look different and unique
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I wasnt in any way criticizing any writer at Zenimax.

    I'm criticizing the suits that keep watering down their work in the name of convenience.

    ^ This exactly, I'm sure the writers and devs care but its more than likely that not enough resources are being spent on the design team for them to be allowed to model a new tower, which is just shameful
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Argent Aperture

    :| ...

    DOOM

    doom indeed O_O
  • TheRimOfTheSky
    TheRimOfTheSky
    ✭✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    Come on, gang. If there's one thing we've learned since ESO released is that they'll retcon anything, even their own established lore, the moment it's inconvenient for them, because they know the community will find some way to make it "make sense". The loremaster left for a reason, after all.

    This is likely just some placeholder stuff, but after all these years none of us should be shocked or surprised if the devs come out and say "Adamantia has always looked like this, previous descriptions were just transcription errors".

    In either case, dont count on Zenimax to portray ES lore the way you expect them to. Thats a bet you'll lose almost every time.

    Unless you expect them to make something out of grey stone. Then you'll almost certainly be correct

    all to true :(
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