Update 29 Combat Preview

hashsnob

Didn't they just say a few weeks ago in the 2020 studio director letter that they were going to devote more time to overall stability/game performance and less time on new game systems??

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

To me this is to much for stamina if i decided to go full 7 piece medium (with impen) in pvp it would give me 7% Sprint, 35% sneak, 21% block and 14% aoe reduction, this is way to much

Firstmep

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

To me this is to much for stamina if i decided to go full 7 piece medium (with impen) in pvp it would give me 7% Sprint, 35% sneak, 21% block and 14% aoe reduction, this is way to much

Heavy just gives you 14% overall damage reduction most of the time, cost decrease on sprint sneak etc are really whatever.
If these changes go thru, heavy will remain meta.
Meanwhile light armor even further behind the curve, the extra damage taken also going to problematic in some endgame pve scenarios.
Really feel like these passive were thought up in like a couple of hours with mostly rp in mind and not at all accounting for balance.

Eliran

There is no PTR update, we have been deceived !

Merlin13KAGL

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Azorean wrote: »

From the stream, Medium Armor doesn't seem to have any penalties. Any reason for that?

We do, its called roll increase. Its literally our only defensive capability and their is an increase tax after each use.

I've heard of this one. It's the same one Light and Heavy users also have, while having a significantly smaller stam pool to pull it from. Let's also not forget that roll cost is already considerably lower for MA than the other two, as well.

If there are to be line item buffs and debuffs for one armor type, there should be one for all armor types.

Medium shouldn't automatically get a pass.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

Firstmep wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

To me this is to much for stamina if i decided to go full 7 piece medium (with impen) in pvp it would give me 7% Sprint, 35% sneak, 21% block and 14% aoe reduction, this is way to much

Heavy just gives you 14% overall damage reduction most of the time, cost decrease on sprint sneak etc are really whatever.
If these changes go thru, heavy will remain meta.
Meanwhile light armor even further behind the curve, the extra damage taken also going to problematic in some endgame pve scenarios.
Really feel like these passive were thought up in like a couple of hours with mostly rp in mind and not at all accounting for balance.

my main issue is the sprint, even now, you find some stamina users, moving so fast that the magic bullet combat is negated, in our guild we have certain classes and gear sets set to do scroll carriers, they can move twice as fast as a horse

Firstmep

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

To me this is to much for stamina if i decided to go full 7 piece medium (with impen) in pvp it would give me 7% Sprint, 35% sneak, 21% block and 14% aoe reduction, this is way to much

Heavy just gives you 14% overall damage reduction most of the time, cost decrease on sprint sneak etc are really whatever.
If these changes go thru, heavy will remain meta.
Meanwhile light armor even further behind the curve, the extra damage taken also going to problematic in some endgame pve scenarios.
Really feel like these passive were thought up in like a couple of hours with mostly rp in mind and not at all accounting for balance.

my main issue is the sprint, even now, you find some stamina users, moving so fast that the magic bullet combat is negated, in our guild we have certain classes and gear sets set to do scroll carriers, they can move twice as fast as a horse

Movespeed is capped at 200% regardless of sprint or any other speed increase.

Olupajmibanan

Tanks with vastly increased roll dodge cost. Lord Falgravn HM approves

While I like the direction they are heading, I don't like that they don't adjust content to global changes. Many players quit just because old scores are unbeatable because Nerf Hammer stroke multiple times since then. I know that adjusting content is a lot of work, but it's worth the effort. Losing top-end of your playerbase, be it only 5%, is just as bad as losing those RPing cosmetics buying casuals.

Content was designed at a certain stage relative to the player power at that stage. You can't simply change player power but leave content the same without any adjustments. If you do that, content difficulty will be inadequate. This cause severe issues and it is as @Smaxx said. We are better of finishing our tri-fectas before U29 hits live. All because ZoS won't adjust content.

For the particular Falgravn fight, frequency at which Falgravn does his HA should be reduced to account for the increased dodge cost.

Smaxx

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Tanks with vastly increased roll dodge cost. Lord Falgravn HM approves

I agree, content should be adjusted, if the need arises, but I also think it's important to consider these changes together with the new CP abilities.

We haven't seen most of those yet. I could totally imagine there being higher dodge cost reductions compared to the original system, but as a slotted ability. So in this case you'd slot that in for a dodge heavy encounter, sacrificing block cost reduction or break free cost reduction or whatever.

I kind of like the idea to be able to hot-swap stuff based on encounters without managing an extra inventory page or respeccing in total. Looking forward to have a closer look later today.

Hesperax79

You can not use your previous experience because this changes are too big to let untouched every element of balance. So, the past resist and bonuses are irrelevant. Honestly we know nothing about the new META or balance. If there will be any at all...

Olupajmibanan

Smaxx wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Tanks with vastly increased roll dodge cost. Lord Falgravn HM approves

I agree, content should be adjusted, if the need arises, but I also think it's important to consider these changes together with the new CP abilities.

We haven't seen most of those yet. I could totally imagine there being higher dodge cost reductions compared to the original system, but as a slotted ability. So in this case you'd slot that in for a dodge heavy encounter, sacrificing block cost reduction or break free cost reduction or whatever.

I kind of like the idea to be able to hot-swap stuff based on encounters without managing an extra inventory page or respeccing in total. Looking forward to have a closer look later today.

I wouldn't be so optimistic. There were multiple occassions in the past when content NEEDED adjustment which didn't happen. And the results? Just as expected, salt, tears and many good players playing another game. ZoS can't learn from mistakes, we should bring this up even with the slightest nerf.

Sinolai

I like the idea of adding more element to the choice of armor you wear but I think this is going a bit wrong way. Why would wearing cloth make you less protected than running naked? Why is the armor with least armor value getting even less armor value the more pieces you wear? Do we still get the max health from heavy armor/magicka recovery from light/weapon damage from medium?

If armor is going to be a choice of protection rather than damage, they should not be pigeon holed for one role.

SOLDIER_1stClass

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Azorean wrote: »

From the stream, Medium Armor doesn't seem to have any penalties. Any reason for that?

We do, its called roll increase. Its literally our only defensive capability and their is an increase tax after each use.

I've heard of this one. It's the same one Light and Heavy users also have, while having a significantly smaller stam pool to pull it from. Let's also not forget that roll cost is already considerably lower for MA than the other two, as well.

If there are to be line item buffs and debuffs for one armor type, there should be one for all armor types.

Medium shouldn't automatically get a pass.

Incorrect, as light armor has damage shield s and on demand heals that greatly allow it to survive far greater than any medium build.


Additionally, Heavy vs medium damage out put currently is negligible while their survivability is drastically different with heavy coming out way on top.

Light armor builds have access to a much broader range of abilities and support including more aoe options which rain supreme in both pvp and pve.

Stam medium builds are pretty much nonexistent in pve endgame content whete magicka rules the content with its damage coupled with its array of support abilities and synergies.

And in pvp heavy is king 👑 plain and simple.

The last thing medium needs is a nerf of any kind.

olsborg

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Azorean wrote: »

From the stream, Medium Armor doesn't seem to have any penalties. Any reason for that?

We do, its called roll increase. Its literally our only defensive capability and their is an increase tax after each use.

I've heard of this one. It's the same one Light and Heavy users also have, while having a significantly smaller stam pool to pull it from. Let's also not forget that roll cost is already considerably lower for MA than the other two, as well.

If there are to be line item buffs and debuffs for one armor type, there should be one for all armor types.

Medium shouldn't automatically get a pass.

Incorrect, as light armor has damage shield s and on demand heals that greatly allow it to survive far greater than any medium build.


Additionally, Heavy vs medium damage out put currently is negligible while their survivability is drastically different with heavy coming out way on top.

Light armor builds have access to a much broader range of abilities and support including more aoe options which rain supreme in both pvp and pve.

Stam medium builds are pretty much nonexistent in pve endgame content whete magicka rules the content with its damage coupled with its array of support abilities and synergies.

And in pvp heavy is king 👑 plain and simple.

The last thing medium needs is a nerf of any kind.

I agree. Medium is situational good, but easy to counter with all the tons of undodgeable skills and proccs atm.

LadyDestiny

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

What about players already at max CP (810)? Will there be some form of CP normalization to fit the new higher cap of 3600? Or do we need to grind to 3600 from 810?

You will need to grind more some people are already at 3000+ cp

Seen screenshot/video proof of someone at 3000+, have you? Other than cheating devs showing off DLC, of course...

Why do I feel that this is going to become a major issue especially in pvp? I know there are players in the 2000+ range. I thought one of the reasons zos capped points because of players becoming too overpowered and was causing such a huge gap. I feel opening all 3600 at once is just going to be a disaster.

marius_buys

Dracane wrote: »

For those interested, my love has created a list of the current penalties and benefits for us.

Interesting that heavy armor users are the ONLY ones who get an INCREASE to BASH damage, the rest is all reduced cost or mitigation.

Currently Stam users have, on average, a higher weapon damage tooltip than magicka users which means this meta will be stam heavy pvp AGAIN. That devs play 2H & S&B is painfully obvious and combat changes like these just proves that what they call balance is not balanced at all.

marius_buys

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Azorean wrote: »

From the stream, Medium Armor doesn't seem to have any penalties. Any reason for that?

We do, its called roll increase. Its literally our only defensive capability and their is an increase tax after each use.

I've heard of this one. It's the same one Light and Heavy users also have, while having a significantly smaller stam pool to pull it from. Let's also not forget that roll cost is already considerably lower for MA than the other two, as well.

If there are to be line item buffs and debuffs for one armor type, there should be one for all armor types.

Medium shouldn't automatically get a pass.

Incorrect, as light armor has damage shield s and on demand heals that greatly allow it to survive far greater than any medium build.


Additionally, Heavy vs medium damage out put currently is negligible while their survivability is drastically different with heavy coming out way on top.

Light armor builds have access to a much broader range of abilities and support including more aoe options which rain supreme in both pvp and pve.

Stam medium builds are pretty much nonexistent in pve endgame content whete magicka rules the content with its damage coupled with its array of support abilities and synergies.

And in pvp heavy is king 👑 plain and simple.

The last thing medium needs is a nerf of any kind.

So you can out heal a snipe and dizzy spammer in pvp? The only ability in game with built in cc and counter cc immunity. Nope

Firstmep

LadyDestiny wrote: »

Aerius_Sygale wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

xgoku1 wrote: »

What about players already at max CP (810)? Will there be some form of CP normalization to fit the new higher cap of 3600? Or do we need to grind to 3600 from 810?

You will need to grind more some people are already at 3000+ cp

Seen screenshot/video proof of someone at 3000+, have you? Other than cheating devs showing off DLC, of course...

Why do I feel that this is going to become a major issue especially in pvp? I know there are players in the 2000+ range. I thought one of the reasons zos capped points because of players becoming too overpowered and was causing such a huge gap. I feel opening all 3600 at once is just going to be a disaster.

No, they added the limited slottable passive part for a reason, just like now, after a point you won't gain any extra stats from cp, but simply will have more things to choose from that you can slot.
At best its going to save you from respecting allocated points if you want to respect a different passive.
Obviously we don't know what the breakpoint is going to be in the new system where you can have a full set of cp passives maxed out, but I'd wager it's not significantly higher than the current 810 cap.
Zos generally doesn't like people grinding too hard, they have nerfed XP grinds for years a while back, so it's unlikely they will force ppl to farm zombies for months again just to be competitive.

Dracane

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

SOLDIER_1stClass wrote: »

Azorean wrote: »

From the stream, Medium Armor doesn't seem to have any penalties. Any reason for that?

We do, its called roll increase. Its literally our only defensive capability and their is an increase tax after each use.

I've heard of this one. It's the same one Light and Heavy users also have, while having a significantly smaller stam pool to pull it from. Let's also not forget that roll cost is already considerably lower for MA than the other two, as well.

If there are to be line item buffs and debuffs for one armor type, there should be one for all armor types.

Medium shouldn't automatically get a pass.

Incorrect, as light armor has damage shield s and on demand heals that greatly allow it to survive far greater than any medium build.


Additionally, Heavy vs medium damage out put currently is negligible while their survivability is drastically different with heavy coming out way on top.

Light armor builds have access to a much broader range of abilities and support including more aoe options which rain supreme in both pvp and pve.

Stam medium builds are pretty much nonexistent in pve endgame content whete magicka rules the content with its damage coupled with its array of support abilities and synergies.

And in pvp heavy is king 👑 plain and simple.

The last thing medium needs is a nerf of any kind.

Did you really just say light armor can survive far better than medium/stam builds?

Plain and simple, if medium armor gets no penalties, it also does not need even more bonuses.
I want to properly explain why stamina outperforms magicka stat wise when looking at their entire arsenal. I just might when I get angry enough during the PTS.

BaiterOfZergs

One of the more interesting updates in years. I’m not sure how certain things will play out in pvp without full context, such as light armor builds taking more damage from the most played pvp style in the game.

There’s a lot of missing information but seems like this patch will drastically change the game, hopefully for the better.

BaiterOfZergs

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

To me this is to much for stamina if i decided to go full 7 piece medium (with impen) in pvp it would give me 7% Sprint, 35% sneak, 21% block and 14% aoe reduction, this is way to much

Hard to really say what’s too much without seeing how the cp changes interact with these changes or if there’s other big changes elsewhere. For all we know medium could be taking a huge hit in other areas.

Integral1900

Personally as a former meta addict and now a mostly hybrid solo player if these changes make things harder I will just do easier content, problem solved

However.........

There are a number of tanks in my guild, as you can imagine they took one look at that +7% magic damage and made the following calculation.

+7% magic damage + veteran dungeons and trials = dead tank.

As you can imagine, they are currently freaking out.......... 🔥🤬😡🤬🔥😳🥺

Integral1900

Also, I do not understand why magic would be doing more damage to someone in heavy armour. The lore of the game has always been towards the idea that metal has a tendency to absorb and dampen magic rather than a susceptibility to it.

JayKwellen

Happy to see medium is getting some nice bonuses, as in PvP it's relevance has become markedly diminished secondary to the proliferation of high-health, heavy armor, malacath, proc builds. Outside of a couple very specific circumstances (like rolly-polly stamblades or people who get super hype for mobility and speed) heavy builds can outclass medium in almost every way, on almost every character.

I'm assuming that this means the skill passives themselves will probably be worked too. If this is the case, I do hope that the dodge roll cost reduction will still be available in the medium skill line, particularly after seeing how the new armor bonus for dodge-rolling was given to light armor. Dodging is one of the most important survivability tools for medium armor, and losing that cost reduction passive would be seriously damaging.

Tommy_The_Gun

Integral1900 wrote: »

Personally as a former meta addict and now a mostly hybrid solo player if these changes make things harder I will just do easier content, problem solved

However.........

There are a number of tanks in my guild, as you can imagine they took one look at that +7% magic damage and made the following calculation.

+7% magic damage + veteran dungeons and trials = dead tank.

As you can imagine, they are currently freaking out.......... 🔥🤬😡🤬🔥😳🥺

As a Tank main I was also thinking about that. A lot of magick dmg in dungeons and trials... Granted I mostly do group dungeons so it is kinda easier than trials, but still, it is a big change.

Maybe it can be compensated somehow with new CP, or with use of other armour (2 light + 5 heavy) or something like that...

JayKwellen

After looking at the other armor types too, other random initial thoughts:

Light armor getting 25% break free cost will be quite nice for mag characters in PvP, but the increased % physical damage is a big lol. I get that it makes sense from a RP perspective, but ain't no mag character gonna give two s**** about that when every dawnbreaker, surprise attack, incap, sub assault, blastbones basically gets a free minor berserk buff. But hey, they get a typically mediocre shield, so I guess it's all good.

Heavy armor is going to have, essentially, a permanent 10-14% damage reduction buff, i.e. major protection but all the time. If you're a stamcro now you can literally have major protection, while having major protection, while having major protection! Jesus christ.

Noldornir

Tannus15 wrote: »

Am I the only trials tank looking at this and thinking that taking 9% increased magicka damage in trials (which for most trials is the damage we actually care about) is a bad thing?
Like, whut??

I mean, wearing heavy armour isn't a choice for trials. I'm not looking for a "play style" in your rock paper scissors games of PvP. I'm tanking the boss.

Also, how is this meant to work in PvP? You can't look at someone in heavy armour and then swap over your stamblade setup for mag damage this fight. It's literally "whelp, they take less damage from me" end of story.

It's a thing that would probably balance pvp-wise where u trade physical for spell resistance but in PVE u don't trade them off (as tank) u just stack em both and sacrifice the ability to deal damage. Also most trial have MORE magic damage than phisical one that's why most tanks goes around with a focus on spell resistance.

This will be "sooothed" by extra block mitigation but that doesnt make it up for it as the blocked damage is a portion of the total damage.

This could be easily fixed by adjusting the minor aegis buff (increase its value) imho (that works in dungeon/trials only so no unbalance for other activities)

Bergzorn

JayKwellen wrote: »

Heavy armor is going to have, essentially, a permanent 10-14% damage reduction buff, i.e. major protection but all the time. If you're a stamcro now you can literally have major protection, while having major protection, while having major protection! Jesus christ.

Agree, this is one of the more problematic parts IMO.

Viewsfrom6ix

Light armor is already the weakest in armor rating... And now it will take extra damage from martial attacks...

Way to completely ruin PvP for magicka light armor users where stam/martial builds are more dominant.

MrZeDark

The way I see all of this as a quick breakdown -

PvP Perspective: (DPS/Tank)

StamDPS does more dmg to Mag
MagDPS does more dmg to Tank
StamDPS does less dmg to Tank

So if each armor type wearing person gets a bonus vs another, then fair is fair. Please keep in mind, Heavy Armor is used by Tanks - Since D&D and MMO early life and so on.. So a DPS utilizing Heavy to be more Tanky, is in fact sacrificing DPS. That is completely acceptable and logical, it was never intended to be exploitable in PvP.

If though you have an issue with this, you have to ask yourself - Do these changes hurt me or was I relying on a crutch to get dmg done quickly, knowing it felt exploitative? You know... those giggles you got, when you DD down a player, in 1-2 abilities. All I really see, is it balancing it out in a way that suggests both StamDPS and MagDPS will be able to exchange the same blows now. Why did I not mention Tanks? Because again, you wear heavy - you expect to loose DPS, because its logical. But before I close out my simplified PVP break down, lets not forget.. Mag, you get more Pen than Stam natively - So they get a bonus to your Light Armor, you have had a bonus to their medium for a very long time. This does not mean Stam now reigns supreme, it means Mag needs to be more conscious of their own utility and support.

PvE Perspective: (DPS/Tank/Healer)

This will be quick - Rely on your healers. You know, those players you don't 'need' anymore because you do so much dmg you skip mechanics and and zerg zerg zerg. Maybe this extra dmg we will all take, will make us realize that healers are more than POA, RO, Olo, SPC, Combat Prayer. They are people that need to feel relied upon, that are keeping HoT uptimes so your cozy in your parse - that can burst heal when that mechanic you were too slow to roll dodge / block hits you. Maybe we need to take a little bit more dmg, to feel humbled that our healers are actually good healers and not just there to make your parse look good. Maybe through more dmg, you'll find ways to be more supportive yourself.


So everyone, step back and breath. Leave your bubble of solitude, and 'muh parse'. Think logically how these things would work in a broader 'game design' understanding. As from all they said last year, and bits they have said this year. This is really only the first in many changes to come - To make you realize, If you're in a group you play as one; Tanks, Healers, and DPS. Not just a Zerg.

As if you have been reading between the lines, the reign of maximizing your DPS to get through stuff faster and faster is starting to slow down. They have already mentioned (in the past 13 months) long term idea's of Nerfing your LW, Nerfing your Crit. Given this 'more' dmg taken within armor roles - as well as if you peered at those CP's (pause in youtube to see more). You will understand, that support concepts are getting rolled on out. Keep in mind, many of these idea's are 'long-term' as they are slow rolling you. They want you to get cozy with these little changes first, before the hammer comes. They want you to know what 'good tanking' and 'good healing' is - before they make you realize what 'good dps' actually will be.

Thanks!