Shock heavy attack builds are too strong!

Armethius

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Just make the heavy attack bonus only apply to the final lightning staff tick, problem solved NEXT!

If only ZOS had a few employees with this thought process this game would be bigger than COD

Armethius

relentless_turnip wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I've hit up to 12k with a single tick, and 10k AoE ticks from Tri-Focus.

Monumentally stupid build, I love it.

I can confirm I have had @ThePedge on my death recap 😂 12k infact. Your guild is "sorc op" or something like that?

Tbh I don't mind it, I have been killed at least 3 times by you an your guild 😂 you guys have to aim at me which is a leap in terms of skill in this meta 😁 I need to make sure I don't fight you guys in the open and I might have a hope!

I'll see you out there man👍

This type of interaction is so valuable for the player base. Encouraging players to evolve! Competition drives evolution!

Bergzorn

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

Usually, one can safely ignore tickling shock heavy spammers in PvP, but when you run into one of these builds, it's like a sip from a cup of hot coffee...

Waffennacht

Curious:

Proc or Heavy Attack more OP?

katorga

Qbiken wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Come dear, no crocodile tears now. You yourself run immortality right now on your templar. Glad you use it for the greater good though, like yesterday.

I´m referring to a few selective magsorcs seen in BG`s running this setup with 40k + HP hitting people for 6-7k lightning heavy attack ticks

WIthout off-balance AND empower the damage is not there on this build.

Do I think it is out of balance compared to the werewolf, health/proc, Vateshran 2H, and Vateshran Destro/Vamp builds that are out there, no. I think it is actually a balanced build in this meta. There are all sorts of high health, omg damage builds out for every class, mag or stam, this patch.

I may not like them, but it is all on me if I am not running one of them. Heck I pulled a build off another thread, and even my Magcro is OP this patch. Who woulda thunk it.

raasdal

Well, it may be because i am in No CP, but i don’t see a problem.

I encounter such a build from time to time - usually one of the 3-4 ppl on EU who play it alot.

In a 1v1 i kill the build every time. But they are a pain in the ass when Xv1 because if how it specifically counters dodgeroll.

I too have made a build like it, and people forget a very important part: You cannot weave.

Sure, you can have your Lightning Heavy do the same amount of damage as the Soul Assault ultimate. But guess what - no one really dies from that alone. While the damage from the Heavy is strong, people forget about the fact that no skill can be cast. Within the timeframe of a full heavy, you could have done 2xLA weave and spammable skill.

So when it comes to brass tax, it is not that OP in the end. But it is an excellent zerg / group build. In my opinion at least.

Animus-ESO

Disgusting! How is this done. Seriously i need the build... for research...

Volckodav

I tried it myself in every combination and honestly vthat not as good as proc meta around. Bad def, no mobility, small busty windows, during 3 sec u don't cast any others skills... I had good hope but that cannot counter proc where u do more damage with less effort and better def

Skullstachio

Sets that affect heavy attacks usually occur on the last tick of damage on a fully-charged lightning heavy attack. I know as I use it on my Necromage for PvE.

RiskyChalice863

Volckodav wrote: »

I tried it myself in every combination and honestly vthat not as good as proc meta around. Bad def, no mobility, small busty windows, during 3 sec u don't cast any others skills... I had good hope but that cannot counter proc where u do more damage with less effort and better def

Yeah, it has weaknesses. I don’t think it really “counters” procs exactly, since it is actually very similar to a proc build in that the sets do the damage so you can use a lot of the rest of the build to build in lots of health and whatnot. Like, I run a Templar version of this that is a Nord with 64 points into health.

The difference, IMO is that you still cannot hope to be as difficult to kill as a proc build. A big thing is that you can’t use heavy armor (and almost certainly should go with 5 light armor actually), so you really can’t reach the levels of health or resistances that proc builds can. An upshot of not having as much health is also that you can’t really rely on health-based healing. You just don’t quite have enough health for health-based heals to actually be very good, and the classes that are the best for this (Templar and DK, IMO) don’t have the best health-based heals anyways. So you have lower health and resistances than proc builds, and worse healing.

That said, I do actually think these builds do more damage than most proc builds. The damage is more consistent (no timer on a proc), can’t be purged, is AOE (though some procs are too), and just in general is at its peak (on off balance opponents) higher than proc builds could be. The sustain on these builds is also better.

So I think it’s a tradeoff. You can make a fairly bulky heavy attack build that can’t really be burst down, but it can’t be as bulky or have as good of healing as a proc build. So you are undeniably easier to kill. But I think the damage and sustain are better. The reality is that that makes the two types of builds better at different things. A lightning heavy attack build should lose a duel with a tanky proc build because the damage window with off balance still won’t be enough to kill the proc build and the proc build will eventually win a battle of attrition due to being tankier and having better healing. A proc build will also be better at 1vx’ing because they’re tankier and have better healing and can apply their damage quickly without sitting there channeling. But at the same time, a lightning heavy attack build will be even better in large group settings because of the higher damage with tons of AOE. A lightning heavy attack build will also often be better in lots of small-scale settings like BGs, because it actually will kill non-tanky people faster than the proc builds will. I’ve had lots of BGs where there’s a good player on a meta proc build but I dominate more because my build just can kill people in a matter of a few seconds while the proc build just can’t do that. And even in BGs with mostly very tanky people, I find the heavy attack build does really well because you get giant balls of people fighting and I can just output so much AOE damage.

HanStolo

what's the matter boys and girls, is your Crimson set out of range against this build?

Joy_Division

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

I don't have an opinion of these builds since I haven't played much solo this patch.

But I don;t think the reasoning you lay out somehow counteracts or "balances" out a build that is capable of dishing out disproportionally large amounts of ranged undodgeable damage. Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

Kikazaru

I see some are bringing up how players using this build are squishy in a 1 v 1 when most of them tend to hide inside their group /zerg and melt players who are already fighting someone else lol. Such builds having downsides doesn't detract fromy my point of it being too strong; heavy and light attacks are simply meant to be weaved in with your offensive skills. That's it! These basic attacks should never deal this much damage. Ever. Certainly not dealing 5k+ of undodgeable damage every tick. lol XD

FirmamentOfStars

Well it least makes it easy to spot the players with no thumbs in the zerg...since the build doesnt require skill, you can assume the people using it compensate with the build their lack of skill.

relentless_turnip

There are so many builds I hate fighting this patch 😂 this one is the bottom of the list and I have been killed by it at least 3 times. I have moved to gray host for the rest of this patch. The proc sets and high health builds are less common and less effective there. It's terrible everywhere tbh though...

Bergzorn

Doesn't matter if they are squishy or not.

The ones I encountered (in no CP) did hit me for about 10k damage / full heavy attack from range (standing in their blockade for sure wouldn't help...). There is no way I can go on the offensive and get the upper hand with that much undodgeable pressure (wards and heals need GCD and, in contrast to HAs, ressources).

Maybe a 30k+ HP Unleashed proctank can deal with this, but I'd rather uninstall...

When such builds run in a group and hide behind a bunch of pets, just don't bother "playing fair". Zerg them down and be done with this nonsense.

Joinovikova

Kikazaru wrote: »

I find it completely ludicrous that these builds can achieve such potent damage by just HOLDING DOWN THEIR LEFT MOUSE BUTTON! This is only possible because of sets such as undaunted infiltrator and weaver; it really needs to be looked into and adjusted accordingly. I'm taking 3.8k - 5k+ damage PER TICK totaling around 13k - 18k! This is ultimate skill level of damage with just heavy attacks while being undodgeable! There is no way that ZOS intended it to function like this; it is literally shocking to me, [snip] You hurt me ZOS! The amount of players using this set up is becoming more common by the day, I guess people are starting to catch on how cheesy this can be lol. XD

Don't forget that some players even use damage procs with this build. I mean, are they even playing a class at this point? LOL!

[Edited to remove Bashing]

The pvp in this game start to be just like find your bugged ability skill and use this exploit ZOS realase each patch with lower quality and let so much obvious expliots .. like mist form + rune.. this stupidty.. WW health scale heal. I simply do not belive it works as it should and all bonuses should affect all ticks.. the bonuses should apply only to final tick.. current status is crazy 20k+ on undodagble heavy attack on non CP WTF its liek two crit of ultimates.. I also meet that 2-3 40k health + sorc they just hit left mouse button and I die no counter play possible since I was on DK evan i leap one the another one just have masive burst BTW I did not have comparable hit on leap compare to heavy attack I cant dodge it i dont have range ability to break heavy attack .. the problem si this is sipmly not fun to play.. this is main reason why IC is ghost town most of the time cyro start to be ghost land 80% of server time .. BG have 20+ quque time, just because they intruduce these stupidity I hope by mistake.. but anyway things like this should be hot fixed but we will have to wait and hope another month they will fix somethign but for sure they will open another stupidty....


I dont understand how someone can defend this.. its like defend +100% damage increase to snipe and also make snipe undodagble ..

Cripty

Heavy attack good, apes together strong

Pauwer

I manage to do 17k heavy attacks on my dk flame staff with no dedicated heavy attack sets. This is against ep players on ps4 eu true story.

Calm_Fury

The snipe of magicka builds

NordSwordnBoard

Direct Counter: Necro Cleanse
They'll continue to heavy attack you a few more times before they realize its not going to work and move on.

katorga

Joy_Division wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

Any build feels OP in that scenario.

Joy_Division

katorga wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

Any build feels OP in that scenario.

Any build that does normal damage or requires specific situations for high damage (such as dodgeable, melee attacks with a cast time) are manageable in that scenario.

dcmgti

Joinovikova wrote: »

Kikazaru wrote: »

I find it completely ludicrous that these builds can achieve such potent damage by just HOLDING DOWN THEIR LEFT MOUSE BUTTON! This is only possible because of sets such as undaunted infiltrator and weaver; it really needs to be looked into and adjusted accordingly. I'm taking 3.8k - 5k+ damage PER TICK totaling around 13k - 18k! This is ultimate skill level of damage with just heavy attacks while being undodgeable! There is no way that ZOS intended it to function like this; it is literally shocking to me, [snip] You hurt me ZOS! The amount of players using this set up is becoming more common by the day, I guess people are starting to catch on how cheesy this can be lol. XD

Don't forget that some players even use damage procs with this build. I mean, are they even playing a class at this point? LOL!

[Edited to remove Bashing]

The pvp in this game start to be just like find your bugged ability skill and use this exploit ZOS realase each patch with lower quality and let so much obvious expliots .. like mist form + rune.. this stupidty.. WW health scale heal. I simply do not belive it works as it should and all bonuses should affect all ticks.. the bonuses should apply only to final tick.. current status is crazy 20k+ on undodagble heavy attack on non CP WTF its liek two crit of ultimates.. I also meet that 2-3 40k health + sorc they just hit left mouse button and I die no counter play possible since I was on DK evan i leap one the another one just have masive burst BTW I did not have comparable hit on leap compare to heavy attack I cant dodge it i dont have range ability to break heavy attack .. the problem si this is sipmly not fun to play.. this is main reason why IC is ghost town most of the time cyro start to be ghost land 80% of server time .. BG have 20+ quque time, just because they intruduce these stupidity I hope by mistake.. but anyway things like this should be hot fixed but we will have to wait and hope another month they will fix somethign but for sure they will open another stupidty....


I dont understand how someone can defend this.. its like defend +100% damage increase to snipe and also make snipe undodagble ..

Everybody gets that you hate magplars and mist form. I will say again mist form is not an "exploit".

PhoenixGrey

Certain stam class spammables hit for that much.

Now that we have nerfed every magicka class skill into oblivion, lets focus on magicka sets and weapons

Kwoung

As this is basically the main counter to WW's running amuck in Cyro, you may want to address that before nerfing out the only counter most people can effectively do.

Grebcol

Kwoung wrote: »

As this is basically the main counter to WW's running amuck in Cyro, you may want to address that before nerfing out the only counter most people can effectively do.

Na they are in deep sleep....

RiskyChalice863

Joy_Division wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

I don't have an opinion of these builds since I haven't played much solo this patch.

But I don;t think the reasoning you lay out somehow counteracts or "balances" out a build that is capable of dishing out disproportionally large amounts of ranged undodgeable damage. Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

I mean, sure—if you’re fighting an outnumbered opponent in the middle of open space, then this sort of build is going to perform really well because it does a lot of undodgeable damage. But a few counterpoints:

- Over the full panoply of PvP, most fights are not the scenario you described. A build can still be balanced when it is quite good at one scenario you may encounter but isn’t nearly as good in others. As with any ranged build, this build certainly can do very well when it is allowed to sit behind a bunch of allies and unload damage on an opponent your teammates are attacking. It’s a good zerg surfing build for sure. That’s largely just a natural advantage of being ranged more than anything specific to this build, though. And there’s a lot of other scenarios in PvP. There’s scenarios where you’re the outnumbered one, and my description of weaknesses included a lot of stuff relevant to that. There’s also scenarios where you’re fighting a single person (whether in a duel or just happen to have a one-vs-one). Again, a lot of what I described is relevant there too.

- This build isn’t even all *that* good in the situation you described. If you have an outnumbered opponent in totally open space, then yes, this build’s combination of putting out very good *unblockable* damage is quite good. But an outnumbered opponent in open space is almost certainly dead anyways. An outnumbered player who might actually be a threat is almost always going to be using map geometry to get behind cover and whatnot. And this build really isn’t all that effective against that kind of movement because your damage is a channel over time in which you move really slowly. It’s easier for opponents like that to LOS your damage than it is against many other ranged builds. I’ve had many scenarios where a player is outnumbered but is really hard for me to get much damage on because I can’t even remotely keep up with them while I’m attacking and when I start attacking them I can basically never get the full heavy attack off before they are back behind cover. Meanwhile, this build simply won’t have a strong ultimate to use to ult dump in order finish this kind of outnumbered player off (even if you used something like Ice Comet, it’ll be weak).

- I’d also note that even in the exact scenario you describe where you *are* in totally open space, the key advantage is really just the undodgeable part, not the damage output itself. You won’t actually do “disproportionally large amounts” of damage in that scenario. Absent off balance (which you can’t apply yourself at range on any of the classes who do the most damage with this), the damage you do to a single target at range can be met and actually pretty easily beaten by other ranged builds. For instance, a Snipe build will absolutely output quite a bit more damage while sitting behind a bunch of allies unloading on someone. A MagSorc could pretty easily output more ranged single-target damage. Honestly, light attack weaving with most other ranged attacks combined with a burst ability (Blastbones, Merciless Resolve, etc) will do similar damage, if not more depending on the build you’re using. So, being undodgeable is great, but we aren’t talking outrageous damage numbers in the first instance. Just very good ranged damage that cannot be dodged. And again, against an outnumbered opponent using map geometry to LOS you, there’s some serious weaknesses, and there’s also serious weaknesses in other types of PvP like when you yourself are outnumbered or you’re fighting a one-vs-one.

None of this is to say that the build isn’t good. I do really like it, and I think it’s great in large scale PvP as well as being quite good in BGs. But there’s a lot of scenarios in PvP that it’s not really optimally suited for.

Joy_Division wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

Any build feels OP in that scenario.

Any build that does normal damage or requires specific situations for high damage (such as dodgeable, melee attacks with a cast time) are manageable in that scenario.

This is implied in my above response to your earlier post, but what makes this build at least somewhat “manageable” in the scenario you described is that you are really slow moving with damage that comes from a channel. The outnumbered person can therefore manage this with good movement (which is the main way any outnumbered opponent manages in general, but it’s particularly easy to do against this build).

Fawn4287

This is the king of no thumbs zergling builds and is disgustingly easy with huge output for the holding down of one button, however at the end of the day its still 1/10 as annoying as any dedicated snipe spammer (especially in cyro lag) and since lightning heavy attack builds are played on relatively immobile magplars a magsorc (most of the players using it aren’t capable of streaking in a useful fashion) which both still exponentially easier to kill than a snipe ganker running race against time.

katorga

Joy_Division wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

Because few of these weaknesses come into play if the user stands behind 4 or 5 allies/friends and just unloads on someone who is outnumbered / disadvantaged.

Any build feels OP in that scenario.

Any build that does normal damage or requires specific situations for high damage (such as dodgeable, melee attacks with a cast time) are manageable in that scenario.

People get tunnel vision with regards to what is immediately in front of them, and have limited ability to process too much chaotic input. It generates the highest probability that the target will fail to counter any of my combo. Heavy attack builds leverage this heavily, because the act of heavy attacking with staff disadvantages you so much.

Really good players, one's way better than me, don't get tunnel vision and can process much more situational input, time slows down. That is their primary advantage over most players. At least in my opinion.