Shock heavy attack builds are too strong!

Kikazaru

I find it completely ludicrous that these builds can achieve such potent damage by just HOLDING DOWN THEIR LEFT MOUSE BUTTON! This is only possible because of sets such as undaunted infiltrator and weaver; it really needs to be looked into and adjusted accordingly. I'm taking 3.8k - 5k+ damage PER TICK totaling around 13k - 18k! This is ultimate skill level of damage with just heavy attacks while being undodgeable! There is no way that ZOS intended it to function like this; it is literally shocking to me, [snip] You hurt me ZOS! The amount of players using this set up is becoming more common by the day, I guess people are starting to catch on how cheesy this can be lol. XD

Don't forget that some players even use damage procs with this build. I mean, are they even playing a class at this point? LOL!

[Edited to remove Bashing]

Qbiken

The best part is that ZOS nerfed the stamina version of these kind of builds when they nerfed Sergeants Mail and its interraction with dual-wield heavy attacks. Their reason was that it provided too much burst potential. While Sergeant mail was strong with dual-wield heavy attacks, there was still counterplay and you could dodge it.

Meanwhile lightningstaff heavy attacks are undodgable and with the right build you can easily hit 6k+ heavy attack ticks on a player. The sets to blame are Undaunted Unweaver/Infiltrator and Noble Duelist together with maelstrom destro staff (most usually lightning staff). In my opinion, if Sergeant mail isn´t allow to double dip with dual-wield heavy attacks, all ticks from a Lightning staff heavy attack shouldn´t be buffed by these sets. Only the last tick should be buffed by the sets. That would remove the absurd damage output these builds can do without making them useless.

relentless_turnip

I have been killed by this a few times 😂 Its only the range that bothers me tbh. I can't even see the person hitting me and I have had 12k on my death recap and they did so from the back of their group.

At least it requires some conscious effort(not much) to attack someone, unlike many other popular builds this patch.

ThePedge

I've hit up to 12k with a single tick, and 10k AoE ticks from Tri-Focus.

Monumentally stupid build, I love it.

Qbiken

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have been killed by this a few times 😂 Its only the range that bothers me tbh. I can't even see the person hitting me and I have had 12k on my death recap and they did so from the back of their group.

At least it requires some conscious effort(not much) to attack someone, unlike many other popular builds this patch.

The only effort those builds might require is the time spent farming the gear. Other than that it´s quite straight forward.

relentless_turnip

Qbiken wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I have been killed by this a few times 😂 Its only the range that bothers me tbh. I can't even see the person hitting me and I have had 12k on my death recap and they did so from the back of their group.

At least it requires some conscious effort(not much) to attack someone, unlike many other popular builds this patch.

The only effort those builds might require is the time spent farming the gear. Other than that it´s quite straight forward.

I'm saying the effort is conscious, unlike proc sets where people are attacked for you. That was my point.

relentless_turnip

ThePedge wrote: »

I've hit up to 12k with a single tick, and 10k AoE ticks from Tri-Focus.

Monumentally stupid build, I love it.

I can confirm I have had @ThePedge on my death recap 😂 12k infact. Your guild is "sorc op" or something like that?

ThePedge

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I've hit up to 12k with a single tick, and 10k AoE ticks from Tri-Focus.

Monumentally stupid build, I love it.

I can confirm I have had @ThePedge on my death recap 😂 12k infact. Your guild is "sorc op" or something like that?

Our guild is Colonists of Bruma, my character name is Nerf Magsorc

wheem_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

The best part is that ZOS nerfed the stamina version of these kind of builds when they nerfed Sergeants Mail and its interraction with dual-wield heavy attacks. Their reason was that it provided too much burst potential. While Sergeant mail was strong with dual-wield heavy attacks, there was still counterplay and you could dodge it.

Meanwhile lightningstaff heavy attacks are undodgable and with the right build you can easily hit 6k+ heavy attack ticks on a player. The sets to blame are Undaunted Unweaver/Infiltrator and Noble Duelist together with maelstrom destro staff (most usually lightning staff). In my opinion, if Sergeant mail isn´t allow to double dip with dual-wield heavy attacks, all ticks from a Lightning staff heavy attack shouldn´t be buffed by these sets. Only the last tick should be buffed by the sets. That would remove the absurd damage output these builds can do without making them useless.

While I 100% support these Magicka heavy attack builds being nerfed, they're no where near as bad as the Stamina counterparts were. Every Magicka player I've seen running this stuff can be obliterated really quickly and easily once you realize that they're there, and they have a much harder time chasing you down if you run/LOS them than Stam builds typically do. They also can't come around a corner and essentially 1-shot a lot of builds, since Fire Staff heavy attacks aren't nearly as fast or reliable as Dual Wield. And if you're a class with a cleanse, that will also take care of Lightning Heavies.

Dodge wasn't a "real" counter to the Stamina-based heavy attack builds, at least not for Magicka builds in no-CP. There's simply no way that you would be able to dodge + break free for long enough to successfully counterpressure a properly built Stamina heavy attack build.

dinokstrunz

Just make the heavy attack bonus only apply to the final lightning staff tick, problem solved NEXT!

katorga

Umm....all due to empower working on heavy attacks. Just revert the change.

This is really only a DK/Templar Thing. Does it really matter compared to the really over the top stuff out there now?

Dracane

I have not yet encountered a build like this in no CP. But when everything I have read recently is true, then this needs to be looked at.

I only encounter a Magden who tried it and I negated his build by just side stepping his wall of elements every time. Though I can not say whether he even used undaunted infiltrator to boost it.

Dracane

katorga wrote: »

Umm....all due to empower working on heavy attacks. Just revert the change.

This is really only a DK/Templar Thing. Does it really matter compared to the really over the top stuff out there now?

No. Empower at least requires upkeep and attention of the user. It was good they made heavy attack builds viable by allowing it to affect heavy attacks. These builds however are above viable as we know.

The sets in question simply need to get the sergeant's treatment and only affect fully charged/last tick attacks. None of this is an issue with other weapons, is it? At least no one yet complained about MagDKs hitting for 14k fire staff heavy attacks (Which they can) Also nobody complains about gankers utilizing this... So the issue clearly comes from lightning staves only.

Fix the sets, not empower. Empower is still super niche with its short duration and needs a buff rather than a nerf. Only DKs and Templars really can make use of it right now.

Marcelovski

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

Dracane

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Waffennacht

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Jierdanit

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Ive seen a group of 3 ppl in BGs all running a heavy attack sorc build with about 40k hp and just all hold heavy attack on 1 enemy and delete him in a few seconds.

So it is definitely not necessarily squishy.

Dracane

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

But it goes through reflects and absorbs, can not be dodged and stuns at the end.
I assume this was done against a light armor pleb. In no CP my Fragementina hits for like 11k against light armor, my overload for 10k and elemental weapons around 6k with the status effect.

So that's similar damage, but it can be easily avoided unlike this heavy attack.

Qbiken

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Dracane

Qbiken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Come dear, no crocodile tears now. You yourself run immortality right now on your templar. Glad you use it for the greater good though, like yesterday.

ThePedge

Qbiken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Excuse me, please delete this post

Qbiken

Dracane wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Come dear, no crocodile tears now. You yourself run immortality right now on your templar. Glad you use it for the greater good though, like yesterday.

I´m referring to a few selective magsorcs seen in BG`s running this setup with 40k + HP hitting people for 6-7k lightning heavy attack ticks

Marcelovski

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ive seen a group of 3 ppl in BGs all running a heavy attack sorc build with about 40k hp and just all hold heavy attack on 1 enemy and delete him in a few seconds.

So it is definitely not necessarily squishy.

hmmm i wonder who that was

StamPlar_1976

/drool

Jierdanit

Marcelovski wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Ive seen a group of 3 ppl in BGs all running a heavy attack sorc build with about 40k hp and just all hold heavy attack on 1 enemy and delete him in a few seconds.

So it is definitely not necessarily squishy.

hmmm i wonder who that was

yea i think i recall your @ xD

StamPlar_1976

ThePedge wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

And here I am, going through lenghts trying to produce such a burst on enemies with my actual abilities. Giving up all sustain and tankiness in the process.

And people just zap enemies with a mere heavy attack.

Tbf the build is squishy imo

Just play as a magsorc with 40k HP, slot clanfer and vampultimate and you´ve got all survivability you need together with streak.

Excuse me, please delete this post

Too late.... 😈

RiskyChalice863

I run a lightning heavy attack build a lot—specifically, a Templar version. It is definitely strong. But it also definitely has weaknesses. A few of those weaknesses below:

- You basically have two options with this kind of build in terms of defense. The first option is to put attribute points into magicka. In that scenario, you will be squishy and quite vulnerable to burst damage and your healing still won’t be very good. The second option—the one I prefer—is to put your attribute points into health and probably stack some resistances (for instance, by going Nord). Under that option, you aren’t so vulnerable to burst, but your healing will be absolutely abysmal, because you basically don’t get magicka/spell damage from anything. I basically have to use Resto ult or Swarming Scion as my heal when I’m in trouble because my Rapid Regen and Honor the Dead cannot really heal through damage. Resto ult is fairly cheap, but if it’s not up then I’m pretty easy to whittle down since I just can’t heal through sustained damage at all.

- Related to the above, you have no passive healing while attacking. Lots of builds and abilities have healing built into their attacks (things like Sweeps, Flame Lash and Embers, Warden animal companions passive, etc.). You don’t get that at all with this kind of build. So when people do start damaging you, it’s easy to send you to your back bar. And, again, once you’re on your back bar, your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back to the front bar without using an ultimate to do so.

- Relatedly, you are very vulnerable while attacking. When you are heavy attacking, you move really slowly, and you also obviously can’t block cast lightning heavy attacks. You’re a really easy target while attacking for things like Dizzying Swings. Other builds that have more mobility while attacking can actually move quickly enough to mess with peoples’ targeting while also doing damage, or they can block cast while doing damage. A lightning heavy attack build cannot do either of those things. This dovetails sort of badly with the above. While you are attacking, you have no passive healing and are a sitting duck so you’re easy to whittle down, and if someone forces you to your back bar your healing is so bad that it’s hard to get back without an ultimate.

- You lack true burst damage. You won’t use a burst ultimate (since you need the healing from a healing ult, and if you tried to use a burst ultimate it’d be really weak anyways), and lightning heavy attacks are obviously damage over time. The best you have in terms of burst damage is setting someone off balance and stunning them and heavy attacking. That is enough to kill squishy people while they’re stunned, so it is burst damage in a sense. But it is not instant, which limits its usefulness, particularly in outnumbered scenarios, since you simply can’t kite people and then turn and delete someone instantly and keep kiting. You basically have to stop and fight at least somewhat, which makes you vulnerable (see above).

- Your damage is so contingent on the UU and UI sets being proc’ed that you can really lose the ability to kill someone who is low if the sets’ ten second timeframe ends. If the sets expire, you basically do almost no damage, so you are really unlikely to get a kill even on really low health opponents. You simply have to spend a couple GCDs buffing your damage back up and then attack, but at that point they may have recovered. I don’t find this to be a massive issue, but it definitely prevents kills a decent bit.

- Related to the above, you will not have any execute. I play it on a Templar, so in theory I could use Jesus beam, but my stats are so low that it’s not very strong, so it’d only really be useful to avoid the above scenario some. Other builds will be able to finish people off more easily.

- The build also loses a lot of effectiveness against people who are really fast and use terrain wisely. You can’t attack without moving really slowly, so a fast character can LOS you pretty quickly. I use Toppling Charge to help keep LOS, but it’s still a problem, and it’d be worse for a DK. When you have no true instant burst damage and can be LOSed really easily, it can be very hard to kill people who are speedy and tanky, and they can whittle you down with hit and run tactics basically since your healing is bad.

- This build has a big weakness when it comes to pets. The lightning heavy attack aiming is really wonky, so even if you’re sure you’re aiming on a player, it’ll often hit a nearby pet. And, while I’m not sure the specifics, it seems that pets get massive damage reduction against AOE and/or DoT damage. Whatever the specifics, you basically do no damage to pets. And your AOE damage on the heavy attacks is keyed into the damage you do to your main target, so if you’re heavy attacking a pet, you basically aren’t doing anything. If I start heavy attacking and realize it’s on a pet, I just stop the channel and try to start again because it is a complete waste. There’s a delay if you do that though, so it really messes with your damage. Engine Guardian is a particular problem.

- It’s not a huge problem for the build IMO, but Major Evasion does lower the lightning heavy attack damage. As does the Necromancer DoT mitigation passive. So there are some pretty hefty sources of damage reduction out there for this.

relentless_turnip

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

I've hit up to 12k with a single tick, and 10k AoE ticks from Tri-Focus.

Monumentally stupid build, I love it.

I can confirm I have had @ThePedge on my death recap 😂 12k infact. Your guild is "sorc op" or something like that?

Tbh I don't mind it, I have been killed at least 3 times by you an your guild 😂 you guys have to aim at me which is a leap in terms of skill in this meta 😁 I need to make sure I don't fight you guys in the open and I might have a hope!

I'll see you out there man👍

relentless_turnip

Marcelovski wrote: »

I don't see a problem here.

But yeah, @relentless_turnip , I made that build and gave it to our guild, including @ThePedge . Quite funny to just stack heavies.

@Marcelovski
It's an inventive use of sets man👍 nicely done! Much more interesting than the mindless proc set builds, at least you have to aim 😜

RiskyChalice863

Another thing I’d add to this is that, unless it can get you more quickly around a corner, dodging against a lightning heavy attack build just is the completely wrong play. You basically do nothing while they still damage you. The better play is to block. In particular, if you are set off balance, you should block through it as much as you can, because that’s their burst window. When you are no longer off balance, the build can still do good sustained damage, but it’s not *amazing* and a reasonably tanky build or a build that is quick and can hit and run with burst or DoTs can exploit the build’s lack of good healing to win the fight.

Also, regarding the comment of “are they even playing a class at this point,” the answer is definitely yes. This is not a build that works very well on every class. It works on DKs because of Molten Armaments, and it works on Templars because of Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge. It sort of works on Warden because you can set off balance from range with Cliff Racer, and sort of works on NB because you can set off balance and stun with Concealed Weapon. But it is actually very reliant on there being class abilities that help the playstyle a lot, otherwise it is not going to be very good. My Templar version works because of Solar Barrage and Toppling Charge, not because it would work on any class and I just happen to be doing it on a Templar.

montiferus

As usual players will always find the path of least resistance.

ZOS wake up and balance your game.