Icereach, the anti warden coven.

zvavi

The fire aoe in vet icereach is purgable but shouldn't be. and it is a massive setback to wardens. Wardens have an auto purge in their toolkit, which is affecting their sustain, and damage, and using it means that the fire aoe will be automatically purged if the warden gets it, taking away from groups the option to do the dungeons mechanics.

All warden builds, from damage dealers to tanks use the netch. You could unslot it (obviously) but it means you are losing part of your class toolkit. Classes should not lose part of their toolkit on specific bosses.


Make the fire mechanic not purgable.

mobicera

Not only that when you purge it on final boss hm I believe it sends out a fire aoe line type attack that could kill your team mates if unlucky.

zvavi

mobicera wrote: »

Not only that when you purge it on final boss hm I believe it sends out a fire aoe line type attack that could kill your team mates if unlucky.

It does that in non HM, and on 2nd boss too.

Taleof2Cities

It’s a group dungeon, @Zvavi ... which means sometimes you get lucky with certain builds in certain situations.

ESO_Nightingale

There's another joke to be had here, where instead of getting an ice set, iceheart was nerfed. Did get glacial presence buffed, but still. In a place called icereach, the monster helmet and the light set were both an absolute kick in the teeth.

zvavi

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

It’s a group dungeon, ... which means sometimes you get lucky with certain builds in certain situations.

All builds should be semi viable for all content (we ain't even talking about a specific build but a class kit), the problem is entirely that a mechanic is purgable. That's the issue. A mechanic that is needed in a dungeon should not be purgable or deleted, by any skill, set, or server lag. Imagine the shield in scale caller would be deleted by earthgore. Sounds dumb right?

UntilValhalla13

I mean, you used to also be able to reflect chudans poison with defensive stance/dk wings, doing like 200k on a tank. I haven't been in there in a while. Not sure if that's still a thing.

When I get the fire aoe in icereach, I literally just nuke the boss, bypassing mechanics regardless. Good dps deletes most mechanics. XD

mobicera

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

I mean, you used to also be able to reflect chudans poison with defensive stance/dk wings, doing like 200k on a tank. I haven't been in there in a while. Not sure if that's still a thing.

When I get the fire aoe in icereach, I literally just nuke the boss, bypassing mechanics regardless. Good dps deletes most mechanics. XD

The stranglers stay up in hm on final boss, if you don't break the shield and burn the stranglers the poison crap will overwhelm you.
You need to eliminate the stranglers then nuke boss 2.

However the ice boss along the way you can nuke though it's less risky to remove the first spawn of them then ignore them and push in most groups I have been with

code65536

zvavi wrote: »

The fire aoe in vet icereach is purgable but shouldn't be. and it is a massive setback to wardens. Wardens have an auto purge in their toolkit, which is affecting their sustain, and damage, and using it means that the fire aoe will be automatically purged if the warden gets it, taking away from groups the option to do the dungeons mechanics.

All warden builds, from damage dealers to tanks use the netch. You could unslot it (obviously) but it means you are losing part of your class toolkit. Classes should not lose part of their toolkit on specific bosses.


Make the fire mechanic not purgable.

The wrinkle here is that the purgeability of the mechanic isn't an oversight: it was explicitly intended, because there is that backfire effect from purging. All four of the dungeons from 2019Q3 and 2020Q1 have mechanics like this, where an effect is placed a player, and the player has the option to purge it, but at the cost of a backfire effect from the premature removal of the effect. The DoT from the first boss (and second hidden boss) in Unhallowed, the DoT from Maarselok, and the DoT from Grundwulf are the others. And during the PTS, Arkasis's DoT behaved in the same way.

So it is their intent for the effect to be purgeable, and their intent to make players choose between purging and not purging.

I do agree that it is a pain point for wardens, and I've run into this problem myself a number of times. However, on the final boss fight, this is a concern only when Hiti is active on HM, and for the other 75% of the fight, it's actually quite beneficial...

zvavi

code65536 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

The fire aoe in vet icereach is purgable but shouldn't be. and it is a massive setback to wardens. Wardens have an auto purge in their toolkit, which is affecting their sustain, and damage, and using it means that the fire aoe will be automatically purged if the warden gets it, taking away from groups the option to do the dungeons mechanics.

All warden builds, from damage dealers to tanks use the netch. You could unslot it (obviously) but it means you are losing part of your class toolkit. Classes should not lose part of their toolkit on specific bosses.


Make the fire mechanic not purgable.

The wrinkle here is that the purgeability of the mechanic isn't an oversight: it was explicitly intended, because there is that backfire effect from purging. All four of the dungeons from 2019Q3 and 2020Q1 have mechanics like this, where an effect is placed a player, and the player has the option to purge it, but at the cost of a backfire effect from the premature removal of the effect. The DoT from the first boss (and second hidden boss) in Unhallowed, the DoT from Maarselok, and the DoT from Grundwulf are the others. And during the PTS, Arkasis's DoT behaved in the same way.

So it is their intent for the effect to be purgeable, and their intent to make players choose between purging and not purging.

I do agree that it is a pain point for wardens, and I've run into this problem myself a number of times. However, on the final boss fight, this is a concern only when Hiti is active on HM, and for the other 75% of the fight, it's actually quite beneficial...

I agree with everything you said, and even in icereach you have the ice dot purgable too, and it has a backlash too, and I don't mind that kind of backlash from a dot (even though it is a bit uncontrollable on warden, which is annoying, and an oversight), all the other dots mentioned, are not a needed mechanic though. That's the pain point. The fire is a needed mechanic. Therefore should not be purgable. Even if it is beneficial for it to be purgable on most of the fight.

Athan1

Learn to survive without the netch for one fight. It's an OP skill anyway.

MerguezMan

While having great time playing as warden, I can only admit Netch is totally unbalanced skill.

Free cast for Major brutality and savagery, Mag/Stam return, auto-purge every 5s, and through passives health return, ressources regen, ultimate generation, increased damage.

Check around, this is obviously overloaded or underpriced.

Complaining because 1 dungeon mechanic punishes you for using that skill seems a bit unfair to other classes. You know the Netch causes issues there, just swap it for something else.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Are wardens over performing?

Not especially. So the entire talk of nerfing their key abilities to fundamentally weaken their core design, is mute. And bait for ZOS to change a class that works perfectly fine as is.

Every class has strong key abilities.

ESO_Nightingale

MerguezMan wrote: »

While having great time playing as warden, I can only admit Netch is totally unbalanced skill.

Free cast for Major brutality and savagery, Mag/Stam return, auto-purge every 5s, and through passives health return, ressources regen, ultimate generation, increased damage.

Check around, this is obviously overloaded or underpriced.

Complaining because 1 dungeon mechanic punishes you for using that skill seems a bit unfair to other classes. You know the Netch causes issues there, just swap it for something else.

[snip] Yes netch is a strong skill, thats true. But just because it's strong means we shouldn't have a clear dungeon bug/problem fixed? What the hell? No. This isn't even a PvP fight. Why should we be punished so hard for no reason?

What if we said to you that this glaring pve problem shouldn't be fixed because your main is too strong because of X ability, even though the problem doesn't effect anyone but the class because it's pve. Not pvp, no ones fighting against you. Just AI.

[edited for baiting]

MerguezMan

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

While having great time playing as warden, I can only admit Netch is totally unbalanced skill.

Free cast for Major brutality and savagery, Mag/Stam return, auto-purge every 5s, and through passives health return, ressources regen, ultimate generation, increased damage.

Check around, this is obviously overloaded or underpriced.

Complaining because 1 dungeon mechanic punishes you for using that skill seems a bit unfair to other classes. You know the Netch causes issues there, just swap it for something else.

[snip] Yes netch is a strong skill, thats true. But just because it's strong means we shouldn't have a clear dungeon bug/problem fixed? What the hell? No. This isn't even a PvP fight. Why should we be punished so hard for no reason?

What if we said to you that this glaring pve problem shouldn't be fixed because your main is too strong because of X ability, even though the problem doesn't effect anyone but the class because it's pve. Not pvp, no ones fighting against you. Just AI.

I'm not talking about PvP skills. We had over last years an overhaul of all class skills, and I main a DK. Supposedly, all skills have an equal "power budget". I had since last update dungeon runs with PUG healers that were not providing resources synergies at all. I don't really notice no stam return on Warden nor Sorcerer, as they have cheap skills that return loads of stamina. On the opposite end of spectrum, I have to either use an ultimate, use a proc set with stam return, or heavy attack a lot on DK to sustain stamina (no, spending 4k+ magicka to have less than 1k stamina from helping hands passive is not a sustainable option).

I can guarantee Warden is completely playable without Netch. As a tank, you don't absolutely need major brutality, nor self-purge, nor free stamina. Other classes can do without it. You're complaining because you can't use a cheesed skill other classes don't benefit, which causes issues on specific mechanics. It's not a bug, nothing forces you to use Netch, and if you know it makes some encounters more difficult, you have the option to not use it.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

MerguezMan

[snip]

This is not the first and single case where using a specific skill would cause issues. There are some points in the game where you are supposed to be stealthy, where you should focus 1 enemy and ignore enemies around, or where your resources are drained by the enemy. In such situations, you are supposed to adapt by design, and slot different skills (and gear sometimes) from your usual kit.

It's probably not the best design in the world, but not to the point you would call it a bug. Would you ask the boss of Blackheart Haven not to be able to turn you into skeleton and deprive you of active skills ? Or the skeleton thing to be purgeable ?

There is that dungeon fight with purge backlash, on purpose, to pressure your healing. Basically, you're asking to skip that mechanic and turn the boss into a basic mob. Replacing the purge backlash by healing or shielding backlash would make the fight impossible, and making the fire trigger for another move like bash would make it a threat only for the tank. What then ? You may ask for enemies not to be able to stun you at all ?

[edited to remove quote and baiting]

zvavi

MerguezMan wrote: »

There is that dungeon fight with purge backlash, on purpose, to pressure your healing. Basically, you're asking to skip that mechanic and turn the boss into a basic mob. Replacing the purge backlash by healing or shielding backlash would make the fight impossible, and making the fire trigger for another move like bash would make it a threat only for the tank. What then ? You may ask for enemies not to be able to stun you at all ?

While the backlash itself might be there to pressure healing, purging the fire means less care about positioning and that you cant melt stranglers. in a low dps group, using the netch skill, will wipe you. Show me one dungeon, where using your class sustain skill, will wipe you, on any other class.

The HM, which is longer, both sustain wise and timewise, is also against that skill (cause will purge). The backlash is not the issue.

pihlaja

I don’t really see the issue here, but I might be missing something.. I’m pretty average with my warden healer, but I’ve still managed to do Icereach hm with her and with the netch slotted. I just don’t re-cast it for the safety reasons when the second phase is approaching or in the random order phase until that boss has been dealt with. I guess this might be a bigger problem for a mag warden dd, but I guess you can just switch to spell power pots during those phases instead of spell crits? Or am I missing something? Also, we had a warden tank in the same hm fight but I can’t remember whether she had her netch slotted or not in that fight.

Afterip

I agree with this, the Zos should solve the problem with untimely purge . I suggest removing purge effect from the netch skill.

ESO_Nightingale

Afterip wrote: »

I agree with this, the Zos should solve the problem with untimely purge . I suggest removing purge effect from the netch skill.

this is one thing people have been asking for which isn't the worst thing i've ever heard. it's ability to purge stuns has been a pain point for a while, the one purge upon cast is fine though.

Astrid

Then how about the warden realises they have fire on them, melts the ice on the stranglers and waits patiently for the fire to disappear before reapplying their netch. Surely wardens have eyes too?

zvavi

Astrid wrote: »

Then how about the warden realises they have fire on them, melts the ice on the stranglers and waits patiently for the fire to disappear before reapplying their netch. Surely wardens have eyes too?

Netch is 25 seconds, and purges every 5. It literally means wardens are not allowed to cast netch unless they are 100% sure that it is not the strangler witch in HM next for the next 25 seconds.