Rules about the use of macro

SgtNuttzmeg

Personally in the three years I have been pvping I have only seen one person who I have ever suspected of cheating. He streaked despite being within an enemy negate. Which is pretty sus but ESO has a lot of Health and Position Desyncs plus the death recaps are really difficult to base your conclusion on.

ESO has a very high natural skill cap to it and there is a very diverse levels of skill in the player base. A lot of people are more inclined to believe that people are cheating rather than they are outmatched. Think about this, ESO has been out for 6 years or so now. There are people that have been playing it since it released. People who have been practicing LA weaving, and there rotations for dozens of hours every week. What is more likely that they are cheating or that they have just been practicing so much that they are use to the position dysyncs and know there build so well that when their shalks goes off it is perfectly timed with their dizzy, Medium attack and dawnbreaker combo? 99.9999% of the time it's the later. So much of this game is mechanical skill.

If there is any issues with the game it's the exploits but you can't really blame the players. Most of them have been known by the devs for a long time now, like the snipe and overload health sync bugs for instance or the fact that multiple people can activate the same synergy.

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

idk

Fata1moose wrote: »

I have a question would something like the Razer Tartarus having the corner of the d-pad/thumbstick mapped as w+a, w+d, etc. be considered a macro?

Gamepads do the same thing. There is nothing wrong. Heck, I use the software for my mouse to rekey the numbers buttons on the side to correspond to letters on my keyboard. That is permitted. It is when someone uses software to automate gameplay itself, as @Jeremy commented, that a player crosses the line.

validifyedneb18_ESO

The core underlying principle is 1 button press, 1 action. Macros by nature can circumvent this, and are thus cheating

Ackwalan

Fata1moose wrote: »

I have a question would something like the Razer Tartarus having the corner of the d-pad/thumbstick mapped as w+a, w+d, etc. be considered a macro?

There is a difference between using a hotkey and using a macro. You can re-map your keys all you want, as long as each hotkey only performs 1 function. When that hotkey performs 2 or more functions with a single input, you are using a macro and you are cheating.

Glurin

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

SgtNuttzmeg

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

relentless_turnip

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

This metaphor doesn't accurately reflect PvP. Yes it is a good reflection on how a macro would make parsing easier. However let's enter a boxing match you swing one punch and do an entire combo. What happens when I adapt to that combo? or simply step to the side while you finish your flurry? Do you have a macro defensively as well? Because while you are locked into a combo I am hitting you in the side of the head.

Even in a marathon the person running could out manoeuvre the moped, yes they expend more energy but complete the race more efficiently as they adapt to the terrain, take shortcuts etc...

zaria

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

I think the main point here is that an macro might make an bad player an mediocre one, it might help an mediocre one a bit, pretty useless for an decent one and detrimental for an good one, that is for PvE, for PvP its useless.
In short it can help you LA weave as in making you mediocre.

I say its more like an life jacket then swimming, yes its useful if you can hardly swim but nobody would use it in an swimming competition as at that level it will slow you down.

SgtNuttzmeg

zaria wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

I think the main point here is that an macro might make an bad player an mediocre one, it might help an mediocre one a bit, pretty useless for an decent one and detrimental for an good one, that is for PvE, for PvP its useless.
In short it can help you LA weave as in making you mediocre.

I say its more like an life jacket then swimming, yes its useful if you can hardly swim but nobody would use it in an swimming competition as at that level it will slow you down.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

This metaphor doesn't accurately reflect PvP. Yes it is a good reflection on how a macro would make parsing easier. However let's enter a boxing match you swing one punch and do an entire combo. What happens when I adapt to that combo? or simply step to the side while you finish your flurry? Do you have a macro defensively as well? Because while you are locked into a combo I am hitting you in the side of the head.

Even in a marathon the person running could out manoeuvre the moped, yes they expend more energy but complete the race more efficiently as they adapt to the terrain, take shortcuts etc...

Exactly. Well said. Nobody who is actually good at the game uses macros or even needs them.

Glurin

zaria wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

I think the main point here is that an macro might make an bad player an mediocre one, it might help an mediocre one a bit, pretty useless for an decent one and detrimental for an good one, that is for PvE, for PvP its useless.
In short it can help you LA weave as in making you mediocre.

A bit better than "mediocre" actually. Although strictly speaking, it's not really that they make you a better player. Quite the opposite. You're just producing results similar to better players without putting in any of the effort required.

Also, you're seriously underestimating the potential of macros if you think all they do is help you LA weave. Think about it. Two or three skills lined up with the precise combination and duration of LA, block, bar switching and dodge moves right down to the millisecond to produce maximum results with just one button press. And there's a good probability you've got more than one set up. The hardest part is just pointing your cursor at the target long enough to select them.

And you're saying something like that is useless? Come on. Be honest. It's the virtual version of using steroids. The level of skill required to overcome someone using macros is drastically different from the level required to use macros, and that's the real problem. You put two players of equal skill together and the one using macros is pretty much guaranteed to win. That's why it's called "cheating".

Sanctum74

Glurin wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

I think the main point here is that an macro might make an bad player an mediocre one, it might help an mediocre one a bit, pretty useless for an decent one and detrimental for an good one, that is for PvE, for PvP its useless.
In short it can help you LA weave as in making you mediocre.

A bit better than "mediocre" actually. Although strictly speaking, it's not really that they make you a better player. Quite the opposite. You're just producing results similar to better players without putting in any of the effort required.

Also, you're seriously underestimating the potential of macros if you think all they do is help you LA weave. Think about it. Two or three skills lined up with the precise combination and duration of LA, block, bar switching and dodge moves right down to the millisecond to produce maximum results with just one button press. And there's a good probability you've got more than one set up. The hardest part is just pointing your cursor at the target long enough to select them.

And you're saying something like that is useless? Come on. Be honest. It's the virtual version of using steroids. The level of skill required to overcome someone using macros is drastically different from the level required to use macros, and that's the real problem. You put two players of equal skill together and the one using macros is pretty much guaranteed to win. That's why it's called "cheating".

In a perfect world, yes macros would always win, but if you’ve played eso for more than a day in cyro you would realize that macros would be a huge disadvantage since lag determines the delay between skills rendering it ineffective and in the rare instance it did work it would lock you into a combo with no ability to react again placing you at a huge disadvantage.

SgtNuttzmeg

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

The difference is a moped has a different speed than run a GCD forces the same speed limit. A marathon also takes many hours, a dual takes a few minutes.

This is also assuming that macros exist and are actively used which they aren't actively used.

I think the main point here is that an macro might make an bad player an mediocre one, it might help an mediocre one a bit, pretty useless for an decent one and detrimental for an good one, that is for PvE, for PvP its useless.
In short it can help you LA weave as in making you mediocre.

A bit better than "mediocre" actually. Although strictly speaking, it's not really that they make you a better player. Quite the opposite. You're just producing results similar to better players without putting in any of the effort required.

Also, you're seriously underestimating the potential of macros if you think all they do is help you LA weave. Think about it. Two or three skills lined up with the precise combination and duration of LA, block, bar switching and dodge moves right down to the millisecond to produce maximum results with just one button press. And there's a good probability you've got more than one set up. The hardest part is just pointing your cursor at the target long enough to select them.

And you're saying something like that is useless? Come on. Be honest. It's the virtual version of using steroids. The level of skill required to overcome someone using macros is drastically different from the level required to use macros, and that's the real problem. You put two players of equal skill together and the one using macros is pretty much guaranteed to win. That's why it's called "cheating".

In a perfect world, yes macros would always win, but if you’ve played eso for more than a day in cyro you would realize that macros would be a huge disadvantage since lag determines the delay between skills rendering it ineffective and in the rare instance it did work it would lock you into a combo with no ability to react again placing you at a huge disadvantage.

That's exactly right.

@Glurin Plus who is going to dodge moves right and left? Most skills have a soft tab target built in and won't miss from simply moving left or right. How do you know when to block ahead of time? When really good players dual there are two things they keep track of; if the enemy has their ultimate and if they have CC immunity. The timing of these two elements can get really complicated because for one ultimates take different amounts of times to build up. An Incap strike takes far less time than a dawnbreaker, or meteor.

Are you suggesting that these players record macros for every kind of ultimate and setup and play the one that counters whichever one they fight? Do you see how ridiculous you sound? The truth of the matter is that even if macros were allowed most good players wouldn't use them. ESO's combat is too mechanical. There is too much dynamics to them. It's nice to get off that perfect combo but sometimes you need to stop early and pop an emergency heal.

Glurin

@SgtNuttzmeg You're thinking a bit too literal. For instance, using block in a macro isn't about blocking damage. Nor do you have to set up individual macros to perfectly counter every possible combination of situations. What macros do is allow you to set up a short sequence of commands that you can fire off in rapid succession. The result that you can bypass having an opener that is, just as an example, activate skill and then LA and then activate skill and then swap bars and then activate skill. Instead you have skill-LA-skill-swap-skill activated in the shortest possible time frame with the push of a single button.

You guys have used this excuse several times now where a "good player" will just wait for his opponent to activate the macro and seize the moment to launch a lethal attack while he's locked in the macro sequence, devastating his opponent in the two seconds it takes for the macro to fire off all it's events.

I'm telling you that is absolute ***. Just on the face of it, are you really trying to defend steroids as totally okay to use in boxing tournaments because really good kung fu masters can overcome an opponent using it anyway? What about all the other people who aren't kung fu masters and don't use steroids? Are you just going to tell them tough cookies, shoulda used steroids? WTF kind of message is that?

SgtNuttzmeg

Glurin wrote: »

@SgtNuttzmeg You're thinking a bit too literal. For instance, using block in a macro isn't about blocking damage. Nor do you have to set up individual macros to perfectly counter every possible combination of situations. What macros do is allow you to set up a short sequence of commands that you can fire off in rapid succession. The result that you can bypass having an opener that is, just as an example, activate skill and then LA and then activate skill and then swap bars and then activate skill. Instead you have skill-LA-skill-swap-skill activated in the shortest possible time frame with the push of a single button.

You guys have used this excuse several times now where a "good player" will just wait for his opponent to activate the macro and seize the moment to launch a lethal attack while he's locked in the macro sequence, devastating his opponent in the two seconds it takes for the macro to fire off all it's events.

I'm telling you that is absolute ***. Just on the face of it, are you really trying to defend steroids as totally okay to use in boxing tournaments because really good kung fu masters can overcome an opponent using it anyway? What about all the other people who aren't kung fu masters and don't use steroids? Are you just going to tell them tough cookies, shoulda used steroids? WTF kind of message is that?

No we aren't defending the use of steriods or Macros but lets say we are playing chess. Steroids' don't provide an unfair advantage right? Same can be said about ESO. It comes down to the mechanics of the game and how people interact with it.

You can use a sequence of skills in rapid succession but what if your character gets CC'd part way through. There is too much of a dynamic to ESO combat. Sure lower skilled players can't compete against a Macro but they don't exist. People don't use them. I have been playing this game for many years and have been in competitive PVP spaces for a few years now, I have fought hundreds if not thousands of different players and this is not a problem this game faces. There is no conspiracy or contingency of players that use Macros.

I would like to reaffirm that I don't and never have supported the use of Macros. I think the practice is lazy and disgusting but it's not present in ESO. The GCD, and the dynamics of ESO combat makes them obsolete. If anything I think the game needs to move further away from their stance of keeping all the calculations server side. I think we do too much to prevent cheating and a lot of the performance problems come from that.

Glurin

Ah, I see the problem is even worse than I thought. Not only do you mistakenly think macros are useless, you go a step further and say they don't exist in the first place.

I can safely guarantee you that you have personally seen people using them if you've played as much as you say you have. You may not have even realized it or had cause to suspect anyone in particular, but it happens. By it's very nature it is very difficult to prove a particular person is using them since macros are just the computer pressing a sequence of buttons for you.

But to deny that they exist or that people use them is beyond wishful thinking. Macros are a big selling point for gaming keyboards and mice for crying out loud. You really think people wouldn't even consider trying to use them? That's just completely absurd.

idk

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

This metaphor doesn't accurately reflect PvP. Yes it is a good reflection on how a macro would make parsing easier. However let's enter a boxing match you swing one punch and do an entire combo. What happens when I adapt to that combo? or simply step to the side while you finish your flurry? Do you have a macro defensively as well? Because while you are locked into a combo I am hitting you in the side of the head.

Even in a marathon the person running could out manoeuvre the moped, yes they expend more energy but complete the race more efficiently as they adapt to the terrain, take shortcuts etc...

PvP fights do not tend to last long enough to be concerned about a player figuring out one's "combo" or rotation.

In fact, macros that would be beneficial in PvP do not need to be all that complicated as it can merely be one skill at a time with a LA attacked to the start. That alone would be a significant increase in pressure that can be applied to the target more consistently, and pretty much without thought or skill, than without the use of a macro.

relentless_turnip

idk wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The other thing about these Macros is that they don't really elevate a player beyond another player. Meaning sure they won't make the same mistakes another player could but if you start to fight somebody who is really good, they don't miss LAs, they are always CCing you ever 5 seconds and there burst is always as strong as ever. There really isn't a difference.

Lets both run a marathon, but while you have to run, I get to ride a moped the whole way. There's really no difference, right? Sure I won't trip and fall the same way you potentially could, but if you're in good shape then we'll both cross the finish line.

You can't blame me for using it either. I mean, the bike shop is right there next to the starting gate and it's been there for years. If anyone is to blame it's the city council for not closing down all the bike shops.

This metaphor doesn't accurately reflect PvP. Yes it is a good reflection on how a macro would make parsing easier. However let's enter a boxing match you swing one punch and do an entire combo. What happens when I adapt to that combo? or simply step to the side while you finish your flurry? Do you have a macro defensively as well? Because while you are locked into a combo I am hitting you in the side of the head.

Even in a marathon the person running could out manoeuvre the moped, yes they expend more energy but complete the race more efficiently as they adapt to the terrain, take shortcuts etc...

PvP fights do not tend to last long enough to be concerned about a player figuring out one's "combo" or rotation.

In fact, macros that would be beneficial in PvP do not need to be all that complicated as it can merely be one skill at a time with a LA attacked to the start. That alone would be a significant increase in pressure that can be applied to the target more consistently, and pretty much without thought or skill, than without the use of a macro.

I appreciate that, I was pointing out a flawed metaphor. I also appreciate you know what you are talking about.

But...
If a macro is that simple why would anyone care if they were used or even go to the effort of setting it up. It is equally as easy to actually just do it yourself imo. Even what people define as perfect light attack weaving doesn't differ greatly from imperfect weaving as long as both land within a second the effect is the same(in PvP at least).

My point was simply that the use of macros is greatly exaggerated. It seems that you largely agree with that. I don't believe they would grant you any advantage over a competent player simple or complex.

You are right that fights are usually too short to adapt to someone's combination. You do however have to out position your opponent, counter appropriately and essentially do the right things at the right time. Even in a 10 second fight with a reasonable player this is prevalent. None of these things can be achieved by a macro even if all it provides is perfect light attack weaving.

I feel that the macro argument is largely used for persons to justify their losses and its a culture I feel needs to be deterred. Those who are truly cheating should be reported, but stating it is as prevalent as others in this thread and other threads like this claim simply isn't true. No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Glurin

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

Zabagad

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Take a look at the beginning of the thread.
It started with a definition like that:

Jeremy wrote: »

Beating entire zergs into the ground without a scratch was a pretty good description as L-Nici put it. If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is. That same logic applies here. The guy was unkillable and would win every match he was in while boasting of his Godhood. So if you see a certain player like this performing way above what you are used to seeing and completely dominating every match they are in, please report them. Odds are they are cheating their ___ off.

Now the macro usage is almost reduced to perfect LA weaving.
How that helps to beat an entire zerg or to be unkillable - I don't get it...

Disclaimer - I die a lot and never killed a zerg solo

Waylander07

There are always going to be players who find a way to cheat but at the end of the day they are just cowards who like the illusion of being good, its the skilled players who get accused of cheating that I feel sorry for unless they are kicking my ass lol.
I may be a below average player but I have worked hard to get to that level without the need to cheat.

Have a great new year folks

relentless_turnip

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

So why is it assumed they are used with no evidence?

relentless_turnip

Zabagad wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Take a look at the beginning of the thread.
It started with a definition like that:

Jeremy wrote: »

Beating entire zergs into the ground without a scratch was a pretty good description as L-Nici put it. If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is. That same logic applies here. The guy was unkillable and would win every match he was in while boasting of his Godhood. So if you see a certain player like this performing way above what you are used to seeing and completely dominating every match they are in, please report them. Odds are they are cheating their ___ off.

Now the macro usage is almost reduced to perfect LA weaving.
How that helps to beat an entire zerg or to be unkillable - I don't get it...

Disclaimer - I die a lot and never killed a zerg solo

This again is just speculation rather than any indication of macro use. A person couldn't fight off a whole zerg with macros alone as they would constantly have to drop their offence to purge, heal, buff etc... I can't believe this could be predetermined and made into a script.

This meta alone is mainly people light attacking and healing or holding block in thews. The proc sets do the rest. Never has a good offensive combination been less relevant.

idk

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

So why is it assumed they are used with no evidence?

In the quote you responded to they specifically said you cannot just look at someone and determine if they are using a macro. They very much were suggesting some sort of evidence is needed to figure out if someone is using a macro or not.

That is the complete opposite of assuming.

Of course, the person using the macro knows they are a cheater regardless of how many times they get away with it. I have come across cheaters, kicked one from my raid group. I would not have the work of the rest of my group tarnished by a cheater.

relentless_turnip

idk wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

So why is it assumed they are used with no evidence?

In the quote you responded to they specifically said you cannot just look at someone and determine if they are using a macro. They very much were suggesting some sort of evidence is needed to figure out if someone is using a macro or not.

That is the complete opposite of assuming.

Of course, the person using the macro knows they are a cheater regardless of how many times they get away with it. I have come across cheaters, kicked one from my raid group. I would not have the work of the rest of my group tarnished by a cheater.

I'm afraid you have missed my point. Numerous people in this thread and others like it have said they have witnessed macro use. I am simply asking for what evidence there is of such. If you cannot visibly see a difference between someone playing well and someone using macros what evidence is there. How did you know the person in your group was using macros?

Cheating is a separate issue, I have actually seen people selling cheating software and have reported it. I know this is a thing. What I am trying to deter is people claiming macro use every time they're beaten. Which judging by my experience people think everyone is using macros. I have been accused numerous times of exactly that. Which undoubtedly sways my bias, but I have also never witnessed macro use and I certainly couldn't differentiate between it and someone playing well. Which is why I ask how can anyone else?

idk

relentless_turnip wrote: »

idk wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

So why is it assumed they are used with no evidence?

In the quote you responded to they specifically said you cannot just look at someone and determine if they are using a macro. They very much were suggesting some sort of evidence is needed to figure out if someone is using a macro or not.

That is the complete opposite of assuming.

Of course, the person using the macro knows they are a cheater regardless of how many times they get away with it. I have come across cheaters, kicked one from my raid group. I would not have the work of the rest of my group tarnished by a cheater.

I'm afraid you have missed my point. Numerous people in this thread and others like it have said they have witnessed macro use. I am simply asking for what evidence there is of such. If you cannot visibly see a difference between someone playing well and someone using macros what evidence is there. How did you know the person in your group was using macros?

Cheating is a separate issue, I have actually seen people selling cheating software and have reported it. I know this is a thing. What I am trying to deter is people claiming macro use every time they're beaten. Which judging by my experience people think everyone is using macros. I have been accused numerous times of exactly that. Which undoubtedly sways my bias, but I have also never witnessed macro use and I certainly couldn't differentiate between it and someone playing well. Which is why I ask how can anyone else?

1. The person you quoted as literally saying one could not just assume someone was using a macro yet you asked them how someone could assume another was using a macro. Maybe the point would be clear if it was in reply to someone that were making assumptions. Otherwise, they answered your question before it was asked.

2. Cheating is not a separate issue. The use of Macros in combat, even if it is merely to attach weaving a LA into a skill, is straight-up cheating. It is irrelevant if they get caught or not, they are a cheater and as such anyone, they defeat while cheating is superior to them.

Use a third-party program to handle part of the combat and that is straight-up cheating. There is no grey area here.

Zabagad

relentless_turnip wrote: »

This again is just speculation rather than any indication of macro use. A person couldn't fight off a whole zerg with macros ...

Of course not

I guess you missunderstood my post - I tried to point out how absurd it is to think "zerg killers" use macros.
If a "zerg killer" needs some kind of cheat, it would be something stronger then a macro...

relentless_turnip

idk wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

idk wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No one has yet been able to define how you can visually tell the difference between someone playing well and someone using macros. As I have never witnessed what I could conclude as macro use despite solely playing PvP, imo it can't be that common.

Reason being you can't just look at someone and instantly tell whether they are using macros or not. If it were that easy then this wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately the only way that happens is if they accidentally use a macro to attack a wall or something.

Macros merely automate the process of pushing a sequence of buttons. So the only way to discern from your end if another player is using them is to do some pattern analysis with recorded data in the form of videos and complete DPS parses. Even then its difficult. Particularly in cases where the macro is used for something simple like a bar swap skill so the only thing you'll see is that one skill being fired off.

So why is it assumed they are used with no evidence?

In the quote you responded to they specifically said you cannot just look at someone and determine if they are using a macro. They very much were suggesting some sort of evidence is needed to figure out if someone is using a macro or not.

That is the complete opposite of assuming.

Of course, the person using the macro knows they are a cheater regardless of how many times they get away with it. I have come across cheaters, kicked one from my raid group. I would not have the work of the rest of my group tarnished by a cheater.

I'm afraid you have missed my point. Numerous people in this thread and others like it have said they have witnessed macro use. I am simply asking for what evidence there is of such. If you cannot visibly see a difference between someone playing well and someone using macros what evidence is there. How did you know the person in your group was using macros?

Cheating is a separate issue, I have actually seen people selling cheating software and have reported it. I know this is a thing. What I am trying to deter is people claiming macro use every time they're beaten. Which judging by my experience people think everyone is using macros. I have been accused numerous times of exactly that. Which undoubtedly sways my bias, but I have also never witnessed macro use and I certainly couldn't differentiate between it and someone playing well. Which is why I ask how can anyone else?

1. The person you quoted as literally saying one could not just assume someone was using a macro yet you asked them how someone could assume another was using a macro. Maybe the point would be clear if it was in reply to someone that were making assumptions. Otherwise, they answered your question before it was asked.

2. Cheating is not a separate issue. The use of Macros in combat, even if it is merely to attach weaving a LA into a skill, is straight-up cheating. It is irrelevant if they get caught or not, they are a cheater and as such anyone, they defeat while cheating is superior to them.

Use a third-party program to handle part of the combat and that is straight-up cheating. There is no grey area here.

You are very good at reading things for what they are. I have complimented you for this before. My point is insinuated by everything said previously in this thread. I quoted the person in question as it was a continuation of the subject matter and the conversation. With no offence intended I feel you responded pedantically and avoided my questions.

My point was the majority of this thread is people speculating the use of macros. All of who are unable to define what it looks like. I am simply asking why are there accusations without any sort of evidence?

I meant you stated kicking someone from your group for "cheating". As the subject was regarding macro use I thought I'd bring it back to topic and ask how you knew they were using macro's. Which is why I said it is a separate issue as this a specific form of cheating being discussed and not cheating in general. I at no point stated I didn't consider it cheating as I assumed you were insinuating.

It is wrong to cheat in any circumstance. I just don't believe macros are a big thing in PvP nor can I see how it would really help. Especially light attack weaving as it can be replicated very simply without them and I wouldn't really care tbh if that's what people use it for simply this.

I don't believe this mind set of everyone is using macros should be perpetuated without any grounds. It creates this culture of "I didn't lose, my opponent cheated". I see it far too frequently and it helps no one.

Glurin

relentless_turnip wrote: »

It is wrong to cheat in any circumstance. I just don't believe macros are a big thing in PvP nor can I see how it would really help. Especially light attack weaving as it can be replicated very simply without them and I wouldn't really care tbh if that's what people use it for simply this.

You probably don't see how they would help because you've now gone and reduced them to gluing a LA to a single skill. That's just one small possibility. (A possibility that still qualifies as cheating, btw.) Imagine being able to swap bars, activate a couple of buffs, then switch back all with perfectly timed animation canceling with the push of a single button. Imagine having a button set up that lets you fire off an attack, dodge roll to the left and fire another attack complete with LA weaving and animation canceling, again with perfect execution.

Macros don't fight the battle for you. What they do is allow you to automate a short sequence of commands that you find yourself frequently repeating. So what would normally take half a dozen button presses and mouse clicks can be done in just one. This way you can perfectly fire off an attack that would normally take you a second longer and potentially have mistakes.

That's why it's so hard to know for sure if someone is using them or not. The patterns you have to look for are very short and scattered throughout the entire engagement. Furthermore, they are command sequences that you would see whether the person was using macros or doing it manually. From your perspective, you just don't know if that attack combo I just hit you with involved five button presses and clicks or just one, and by the time you're able to respond to it the macro has already completed it's function.

MaleAmazon

Idinuse wrote: »
"You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums)."

ToS from Eso

(ZOS:) Thank you for providing the quote, @Idinuse, using macros is against the terms of service. We certainly don't mind a thread being created to ask about this, but this is starting to delve into more detail than is acceptable on the forums so we are locking this thread.

Basically, you are not allowed to use macros. I would say stuff like FastRide would certainly be against the TOS, technically, but some stuff is so prevalent and practical, that ZOS have in practice, if not AFAIK outright stated so, given their blessing to it.

The wording is so broad as to include basically everything ("...any other method...may in any way influence...your playing abilities"). Yeah that pretty much covers it... The Tamriel Trade Centre site is certainly against the TOS, but ZOS aren´t going to shut it down unless they are bonkers.

I mean, technically saying what country you are from in chat, is against the TOS:

(You may not): Take any action or upload, post, transmit, distribute, or communicate Your or any person’s real-world personal data;

If you want to be really nitpicky about it.

In practice, you are probably safe if you do not use anything that makes you more effective in PvP.

Probably.

relentless_turnip

Glurin wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

It is wrong to cheat in any circumstance. I just don't believe macros are a big thing in PvP nor can I see how it would really help. Especially light attack weaving as it can be replicated very simply without them and I wouldn't really care tbh if that's what people use it for simply this.

You probably don't see how they would help because you've now gone and reduced them to gluing a LA to a single skill. That's just one small possibility. (A possibility that still qualifies as cheating, btw.) Imagine being able to swap bars, activate a couple of buffs, then switch back all with perfectly timed animation canceling with the push of a single button. Imagine having a button set up that lets you fire off an attack, dodge roll to the left and fire another attack complete with LA weaving and animation canceling, again with perfect execution.

Macros don't fight the battle for you. What they do is allow you to automate a short sequence of commands that you find yourself frequently repeating. So what would normally take half a dozen button presses and mouse clicks can be done in just one. This way you can perfectly fire off an attack that would normally take you a second longer and potentially have mistakes.

That's why it's so hard to know for sure if someone is using them or not. The patterns you have to look for are very short and scattered throughout the entire engagement. Furthermore, they are command sequences that you would see whether the person was using macros or doing it manually. From your perspective, you just don't know if that attack combo I just hit you with involved five button presses and clicks or just one, and by the time you're able to respond to it the macro has already completed it's function.

You quoted only a portion of my comment there was a lot more clarity offered over its entirety. I didn't reduce them to just a light attack weave, the person I replied to did.

You don't need to imagine simply swap bars and buff. 2-3 buffs is probably a normal amount everything else on your back bar tends to be reactive. Burst heal, purge etc. How do you predetermine what you need to go on your back bar for? Do you make macro for every eventuality? Do you create a macro to swap bars and press 2-3 buttons for you, block cancelling doesn't work on many skills any more. Do you roll dodge between each one or swap bars after every skill? I tend to bar swap or roll dodge out of the last skill.

What is the difference between perfect animation cancelling and imperfect animation cancelling in PvP? Or perfect weaving or imperfect weaving? As long as they land in the same second the result is the same in PvP. In PVE this would be a big deal. In PvP it's not... You aren't achieving sustained DPS therefore the nuisance in your 3 second rotation are of very little relevance.

I am trying to understand the gain here.

Offensively (your example) you fire a skill dodge roll to the left... You roll behind some terrain the rest of you combo is Los'd by your second movement. Do we make a macro to roll right too? Or is it far simpler to fire a skill and dodge roll reactively and complete the combo? That combo also can't be predetermined. You may have a full offensive combo in mind or rehearsed, but what if your opponent is at half health? You are better to change your combo and try to kill them, drop your ult earlier, execute etc... You might want to save your stun for the right moment. What if you start your combo and you get knocked to half health? You might want to use your stun defensively, you might want to hit vigor and stay on the offensive. How do we predetermine every possible outcome? How can we plan for total ambiguity?

I understand what a macro is. I don't see the advantage of using them in PvP. As I said in my statement previously they are definilty cheating. I would not debate that. My first comment in this thread is their use in PvP is greatly exaggerated. I would like add "if they are used at all" to that statement.

If it's so hard to tell for sure why is everyone so sure that they are used? The question I keep asking everyone is how do they know? No one has answered, they simply say it's hard to tell... What evidence is there of macro use? Explain to me the visual difference between someone using a macro and someone who is good at the game?

I have never witnessed what I could define as macro use, but have been beaten by people who played better than me. I have been accused of using macros by people I have beaten.